Vengeance and population

Ostonoha · September 24

I do not care if you hate vengeance or love vengeance combat, this is not about the vengeance combat system this is about population.

There are not enough players in this game who pvp with enough consistently to create a balanced map at the pop cap currently set in vengeance. The first stream i remember after test #1 they mentioned pop caps being roughly 500+ per faction, higher than launch. But at launch we had multiple pvp servers each one 500+ per faction with thousands of people at any time pvping. This does not exist currently. Currently the base population at anytime is what maybe 100 people per faction?

at 9pm est EP is currently 3 bars to 1 bar dc and ad. Roughly 4000 point lead on day two of the campaign.

I want to return to the 500v500v500 of the past. But this population does not exist. Yes set the bar high, I wish it would but going for 500v500v500 is not going to happen. Sure during test 1 and 2 there were many people out there. It was new, it had rewards going for it. But on the average day it will not be like this. ZoS you are going to end the games pvp if you go on with this. Maybe primetime this weekend we will reach 500v500v500 again. But in the off hours it will be so unbalanced it will not be fair at least 1 or 2 factions. Yes this does happen already but at least the #s difference is not as drastic as this. You will drive more people away than you will bring in.

If you are going to raise the pop, raise is slowly.

RaikaNA · September 24

Yeah, how are you supposed to enjoy vengeance when your faction isn't even playing?

Do we all have to join EP to enjoy it? What happen to this once fun event?

RaikaNA · September 24

I'm so glad that EP is having fun in this campaign

Stridig · September 24

RaikaNA wrote: »

I'm so glad that EP is having fun in this campaign

I guess they consider PvDoor to be fun. Lol

Rohamad_Ali · September 24

With no counterplay vs zergs, this is unplayable pvp. No cold fire trebs. No VD. No thank you.

BXR_Lonestar · September 24

IMO Vengeance popularity is down this time around because they released it during a PVE event and when the event lines up with PVE-based golden pursuits. Most players are PVE-oriented, so when it comes to playing Vengeance or working on the PVE event, that is an easy decision.

If they want to test the vengeance servers to the max, they need to have PVP-related golden pursuits that aren't so easy to get that anyone can go in there and finish within a couple of hours. Release it with PVP-related golden pursuits, with something like crowns to be earned at every stage, and also have 2x AP going and I guarantee you that players will show up to play Vengeance.

BXR_Lonestar · September 24

Stridig wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

I'm so glad that EP is having fun in this campaign

I guess they consider PvDoor to be fun. Lol

In my experience, the reds LOVE PvDoor. They'll often log off when the big fights come and they start getting pushed, only to log on later in the night to take the map when nobody is playing.

moderatelyfatman · September 24

It looks like Cyrodiil is now as balanced as the 8v8 BGs.

CatoUnchained · September 24

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

It looks like Cyrodiil is now as balanced as the 8v8 BGs.

My greatest fear about ESO is that they mandate vengeance mode just like they do for these "tests".

That ZOS hasn't recognized the folly of 2 team BG's scares me immensely because it means they're likely going to continue on with this vengeance nonsense.

At this point it almost feels like they're trying to kill the game. So many management decisions over last couple years that are baffling and apparently somewhat random makes it seem like the devs are very out of touch with their own game. The two team BG's, jabs animation and a whole list of past mistakes that ZOS refuses to backtrack on is wearing the customer base very thin when it comes to trust and game satisfaction.

tomofhyrule · September 24

CatoUnchained wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

It looks like Cyrodiil is now as balanced as the 8v8 BGs.

My greatest fear about ESO is that they mandate vengeance mode just like they do for these "tests".

The fact that U48 is coming where the only combat changes in the entire patch are adding ‘loadouts’ and ‘perks’ to Vengeance make it crystal clear that Vengeance is no longer just a test and will be released as a new mode.

They did say they plan to offer Vengeance and Grey Host for the next test in December; so I still think it’s likely that the final version will have Vengeance and Grey Host active simultaneously, but I am fully expecting Icereach and likely even Racenwatch to be gone once Vengeance becomes permanent. My current theory is that they’re going to hype next summer’s patch (it’d be Update 50, so big number) as some mega gamechanger free update, and it’ll be both replacing half of the Cyro campaigns with Vengeance and adding a self-nerf slider for “overland difficulty.”
…and of course nothing new. But they gave the players what they wanted, right?

CatoUnchained · September 24

tomofhyrule wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

It looks like Cyrodiil is now as balanced as the 8v8 BGs.

My greatest fear about ESO is that they mandate vengeance mode just like they do for these "tests".

The fact that U48 is coming where the only combat changes in the entire patch are adding ‘loadouts’ and ‘perks’ to Vengeance make it crystal clear that Vengeance is no longer just a test and will be released as a new mode.

They did say they plan to offer Vengeance and Grey Host for the next test in December; so I still think it’s likely that the final version will have Vengeance and Grey Host active simultaneously, but I am fully expecting Icereach and likely even Racenwatch to be gone once Vengeance becomes permanent. My current theory is that they’re going to hype next summer’s patch (it’d be Update 50, so big number) as some mega gamechanger free update, and it’ll be both replacing half of the Cyro campaigns with Vengeance and adding a self-nerf slider for “overland difficulty.”
…and of course nothing new. But they gave the players what they wanted, right?

Or the appeal is, for ZOS anyway, is that much less server resources are needed to support a vengeance mode vs. current live mode. So fewer monthly recurring expenses.

ZOS will not support two different versions of Cyrodiil at the same time.

We need an official statement of intent from ZOS on this because it very much appears their original stated intent is not the actual true intent in regards to vengeance.

tomofhyrule · September 24

CatoUnchained wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

It looks like Cyrodiil is now as balanced as the 8v8 BGs.

My greatest fear about ESO is that they mandate vengeance mode just like they do for these "tests".

The fact that U48 is coming where the only combat changes in the entire patch are adding ‘loadouts’ and ‘perks’ to Vengeance make it crystal clear that Vengeance is no longer just a test and will be released as a new mode.

They did say they plan to offer Vengeance and Grey Host for the next test in December; so I still think it’s likely that the final version will have Vengeance and Grey Host active simultaneously, but I am fully expecting Icereach and likely even Racenwatch to be gone once Vengeance becomes permanent. My current theory is that they’re going to hype next summer’s patch (it’d be Update 50, so big number) as some mega gamechanger free update, and it’ll be both replacing half of the Cyro campaigns with Vengeance and adding a self-nerf slider for “overland difficulty.”
…and of course nothing new. But they gave the players what they wanted, right?

Or the appeal is, for ZOS anyway, is that much less server resources are needed to support a vengeance mode vs. current live mode. So fewer monthly recurring expenses.

ZOS will not support two different versions of Cyrodiil at the same time.

We need an official statement of intent from ZOS on this because it very much appears their original stated intent is not the actual true intent in regards to vengeance.

I get it. I’m very cynical about ZOS’s plans in general right now, but I do believe it’s possible to run two Cyro rulesets simultaneously. Heck, that’s how it works in the first place, considering one Campaign disables CP (and before also disabled most 5-piece set bonuses and Volendrung).

But as to your second point, absolutely. I even made the first post on the PTS feedback thread for Vengeance this round and I said, in bold:

tomofhyrule wrote: »

What is the team’s goal for Vengeance now?

As much as we hear “we want to improve communication,” it never happens. We still don’t have part 3 of the PvP Q&A from last year, which was to focus on Cyrodiil. And I’m sure that now that their goals for Vengeance have changed, that those questions are “no longer relevant” for the team to answer. Kinda convenient way to avoid difficult questions if you just ignore it until it goes away, amirite?

Ostonoha · September 24

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

IMO Vengeance popularity is down this time around because they released it during a PVE event and when the event lines up with PVE-based golden pursuits. Most players are PVE-oriented, so when it comes to playing Vengeance or working on the PVE event, that is an easy decision.

If they want to test the vengeance servers to the max, they need to have PVP-related golden pursuits that aren't so easy to get that anyone can go in there and finish within a couple of hours. Release it with PVP-related golden pursuits, with something like crowns to be earned at every stage, and also have 2x AP going and I guarantee you that players will show up to play Vengeance.

But this is not a solution to the problem I mentioned. This only further makes it worse.

If the only way to get a balanced population is to bring in unwilling participants using shiny rewards the system has failed. What happens when the event ends? We go back to having one super faction swarming the map?

Yes during a pve event the population is "lower" but had normal cyro been running right now the population imbalance would not be as massive.

fizzybeef · September 24

Vengeance on PS EU has ended pvp . Nobody playing

katanagirl1 · 1:46AM

tomofhyrule wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

It looks like Cyrodiil is now as balanced as the 8v8 BGs.

My greatest fear about ESO is that they mandate vengeance mode just like they do for these "tests".

The fact that U48 is coming where the only combat changes in the entire patch are adding ‘loadouts’ and ‘perks’ to Vengeance make it crystal clear that Vengeance is no longer just a test and will be released as a new mode.

They did say they plan to offer Vengeance and Grey Host for the next test in December; so I still think it’s likely that the final version will have Vengeance and Grey Host active simultaneously, but I am fully expecting Icereach and likely even Racenwatch to be gone once Vengeance becomes permanent. My current theory is that they’re going to hype next summer’s patch (it’d be Update 50, so big number) as some mega gamechanger free update, and it’ll be both replacing half of the Cyro campaigns with Vengeance and adding a self-nerf slider for “overland difficulty.”
…and of course nothing new. But they gave the players what they wanted, right?

If they have GH during Vengeance at least on PS NA I don’t think anyone will participate. If they do then there won’t be enough players on either campaign to do anything.

This is death by a thousand cuts for Cyrodiil PvP for us.

I’m happy to be put through this meat grinder if it gives good data for the devs and improves the experience in the future. So far I’m not feeling like we are getting much if any feedback on what they have learned or if this is doing anything at all. Are we just going through the motions at this point? Have they even learned anything?

Rkindaleft · 3:34AM

Regardless of it running during the same time as a PvE event and not having a pursuit, I also think the novelty of Vengeance is wearing off for people.

The first test was popular because it was new and fresh compared to live, even though it was limited it was something different. The second test was popular because of the Golden Pursuit.

After 3 tests I'm getting bored with it. The bland combat templates and extremely simplified skills make for pretty boring combat, there's pretty much no variation in builds, there's very little variety in fights - It's PvDoor, and then the biggest Zerg wins 100% of the time. It feels really repetitive and there isn't much actual diversity in the gameplay.

RaikaNA · 3:39AM

Another Vengeance night...

This is not the same Vengeance that I knew from last year, when the campaign was locked on all 3 factions.

What in the oblivion is going on with this campaign? Why is it so empty and so stale?

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom, please explain why this event is failing?

aetherix8 · 7:23AM

RaikaNA wrote: »

Yeah, how are you supposed to enjoy vengeance when your faction isn't even playing?

Do we all have to join EP to enjoy it? What happen to this once fun event?

I didn't realize EP was the biggest PvDoor faction on PC NA as well. I guess they also tend to run in one big blob, so the moment you burn any objective, all of them show up to "defend."
This map looks so awful, it would be totally pointless to log in as DC or AD for ~30v300 fights. People play games to have fun. This doesn't look fun at all, even on the EP side IMO.

No faction should be allowed to reach 3 bars while other factions are at 1 bar. There needs to be a pop-lock in place once there are 50 or so more players on one faction; no one can join that faction anymore until the other two get enough players to be competitive. A faction hits 2 bars while the other two are still on 1 bar? Lock it until the other two factions have 2 bars too.

Forget the low pop bonus; it isn't at all efficient. Even if it were 5x the amount of AP, what does it matter if the moment you burn a single resource, 100 reds or yel or blue show up to "defend", and you never even cap it. I wouldn't go in there for 10x AP bonus.

ZOS needs to rethink how queuing into campaigns works if they intend to have 300+ players per faction. I suggest locking the queue for factions that are numerically superior, and this lock has to be dynamic and updating regularly (every 5-minute check).

Having increased population caps is a great goal in itself. It needs to be implemented properly though. Populations must be balanced by ZOS because clearly players will not be jumping ship to weaker factions to even the game.

exiars10 · 7:42AM

1) It would be nice if members wrote what server and platform they play instead of trying to figure out, and
2) as I wrote in another thread that console players should stop projecting their abysmal (?) situation onto PC.

Daily reminder that Vengeance pop cap is officially (much) higher, probably around 3x.

The server with the biggest player population - PC EU prime time:

Monday - all 3 alliances with 3 bars.
Tuesday - all 3 alliances with 3 bars, I had to wait 1 min to enter (AD).
Yesterday evening (Wednesday):

So far, every day AD wins massively, EP do some fighting - in Vengeance 2 we were close with Reds almost every day, and they even won 2 days. DC are again absolutely the worst, I think their PvP guilds are again boycotting. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my impression because DC absolutely (?) dominates GH, and AD is the worst.
Basically, Venegance is an opposite of GH.

aetherix8 · 7:49AM

This is how a healthy map looks, and it is due to balanced populations. Yesterday, PC EU, each faction stood at 2 bars, AD briefly at 3 bars, but the other two factions were probably not that far away.

Factions having more or less the same number of players each, it is impossible for one of them to run in one huge megazerg. They have to break up the blob to defend/attack several objectives at the same time. Fights are spread across the map, and this is important performance-wise. Also, playing on such a map is a lot more fun.

ZOS needs to implement dynamic queue locks so there is no 3 bars vs. 1 bar situation that is detrimental to players' experience. @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno

AngryPenguin · 12:28PM

aetherix8 wrote: »

This is how a healthy map looks, and it is due to balanced populations. Yesterday, PC EU, each faction stood at 2 bars, AD briefly at 3 bars, but the other two factions were probably not that far away.

Factions having more or less the same number of players each, it is impossible for one of them to run in one huge megazerg. They have to break up the blob to defend/attack several objectives at the same time. Fights are spread across the map, and this is important performance-wise. Also, playing on such a map is a lot more fun.

ZOS needs to implement dynamic queue locks so there is no 3 bars vs. 1 bar situation that is detrimental to players' experience. @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno

Um, No. How are guilds going to play their official guild raids with your proposal? I'm sick of non pvp players trying to dictate how to improve PvP. If ya'll had relevant and viable suggestions that would be one thing, but you don't.

brtomkin · 3:17PM

AngryPenguin wrote: »

aetherix8 wrote: »

This is how a healthy map looks, and it is due to balanced populations. Yesterday, PC EU, each faction stood at 2 bars, AD briefly at 3 bars, but the other two factions were probably not that far away.

Factions having more or less the same number of players each, it is impossible for one of them to run in one huge megazerg. They have to break up the blob to defend/attack several objectives at the same time. Fights are spread across the map, and this is important performance-wise. Also, playing on such a map is a lot more fun.

ZOS needs to implement dynamic queue locks so there is no 3 bars vs. 1 bar situation that is detrimental to players' experience. @ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno

Um, No. How are guilds going to play their official guild raids with your proposal? I'm sick of non pvp players trying to dictate how to improve PvP. If ya'll had relevant and viable suggestions that would be one thing, but you don't.

If you are bringing an EP "raid" into a campaign that is already dominated by EP, then you should wait in queue until AD and DC population catches up. OR, you can bring your raid in on one of the underpopulated factions.

RaikaNA · 4:40PM

aetherix8 wrote: »

RaikaNA wrote: »

Yeah, how are you supposed to enjoy vengeance when your faction isn't even playing?

Do we all have to join EP to enjoy it? What happen to this once fun event?

I didn't realize EP was the biggest PvDoor faction on PC NA as well. I guess they also tend to run in one big blob, so the moment you burn any objective, all of them show up to "defend."
This map looks so awful, it would be totally pointless to log in as DC or AD for ~30v300 fights. People play games to have fun. This doesn't look fun at all, even on the EP side IMO.

No faction should be allowed to reach 3 bars while other factions are at 1 bar. There needs to be a pop-lock in place once there are 50 or so more players on one faction; no one can join that faction anymore until the other two get enough players to be competitive. A faction hits 2 bars while the other two are still on 1 bar? Lock it until the other two factions have 2 bars too.

Forget the low pop bonus; it isn't at all efficient. Even if it were 5x the amount of AP, what does it matter if the moment you burn a single resource, 100 reds or yel or blue show up to "defend", and you never even cap it. I wouldn't go in there for 10x AP bonus.

ZOS needs to rethink how queuing into campaigns works if they intend to have 300+ players per faction. I suggest locking the queue for factions that are numerically superior, and this lock has to be dynamic and updating regularly (every 5-minute check).

Having increased population caps is a great goal in itself. It needs to be implemented properly though. Populations must be balanced by ZOS because clearly players will not be jumping ship to weaker factions to even the game.

Its shameful because at the beginning of the event... EP took every single thing on the map.. DC/ADscrolls... everything.. It's nearly impossible to play the objective.

Sadly I don't think ZOS even cares for PvP anymore. It's been like this for years now with no quality improvements in Cyrodill.

acastanza_ESO · 5:24PM

Ostonoha wrote: »

I do not care if you hate vengeance or love vengeance combat, this is not about the vengeance combat system this is about population.

There are not enough players in this game who pvp with enough consistently to create a balanced map at the pop cap currently set in vengeance. The first stream i remember after test #1 they mentioned pop caps being roughly 500+ per faction, higher than launch. But at launch we had multiple pvp servers each one 500+ per faction with thousands of people at any time pvping. This does not exist currently. Currently the base population at anytime is what maybe 100 people per faction? at 9pm est EP is currently 3 bars to 1 bar dc and ad. Roughly 4000 point lead on day two of the campaign.

I want to return to the 500v500v500 of the past. But this population does not exist. Yes set the bar high, I wish it would but going for 500v500v500 is not going to happen. Sure during test 1 and 2 there were many people out there. It was new, it had rewards going for it. But on the average day it will not be like this. ZoS you are going to end the games pvp if you go on with this. Maybe primetime this weekend we will reach 500v500v500 again. But in the off hours it will be so unbalanced it will not be fair at least 1 or 2 factions. Yes this does happen already but at least the #s difference is not as drastic as this. You will drive more people away than you will bring in.

If you are going to raise the pop, raise is slowly.

If the campaign had any counters to zerging *cough*ballgroup*cough* then this would be great....

Congrats zerglings, this is what Cyro without ballgrouping looks like.

exiars10 · 5:38PM

Dead game on PC EU 19.30 - and it's not even prime time.
One pro PvP ESO redditor from PC EU claimed last night that he knows that nobody who plays Cyrodiil as pro play it...
My question - who plays Vengeance then? Normie PvE players for sure not as is Undaunted Event and no GP in Vengeance test.

And current map:

acastanza_ESO · 5:49PM

exiars10 wrote: »

Dead game on PC EU 19.30 - and it's not even prime time.
One pro PvP ESO redditor from PC EU claimed last night that he knows that nobody who plays Cyrodiil as pro play it...
My question - who plays Vengeance then? Normie PvE players for sure not as is Undaunted Event and no GP in Vengeance test.

And current map:

Balanced two bars in vengeance is actually pretty good, that's probably about the same as the current live pop cap. Alas that's not what we're seeing on PCNA

JustLovely · 5:54PM

This weeks mandated vengeance has got me on the verge of uninstalling. I'll keep playing for a bit longer probably, but another mandated vengeance mode and I'm just going to uninstall. I don't believe for a second vengeance "tests" have anything at all to do with improving the Cyrodiil I log in to play.