Asdara wrote: »

Hey everyone,
I’ve been playing ESO since beta, and one of the things I’ve always loved is how diverse the community can be - different builds, different playstyles, different people all coming together.
But lately, I feel like discrimination and gatekeeping are at an all-time high.
Instead of helping or supporting each other, people are being excluded or mocked for their playstyle, identity, or simply not matching someone else’s “meta.”

Here’s an example that happened today, in vet pledge, so fairly medium LVL content, we're not talking about trifecta or else huh:

Meanwhile, this main arcanist :
- Left after 1 wipe
- Didn't focus adds and that's what wiped the group
- Had like 20k hp (no food buff?) and DIED FIRST

This is what happens when design forces everyone into a single box. People don’t want to carry anyone who doesn’t fit the exact mold, and players who experiment or just want to enjoy a different style get punished for it. I keep seeing people point fingers at the ESO community for being “toxic” or “gatekeeping,” but honestly? The root of the problem is ZOS.

ZOS keeps pushing heavy attack sets, but they’re some of the weakest and most frustrating designs I’ve ever seen. At the same time, everything is being funneled into the beam meta. The end result? Players are stuck in a corner: either you run the one style that ZOS clearly wants, or you get insulted, excluded, and told you’re “unviable.”
It’s not just about players being mean, it’s about how the game is designed. If sets and builds were actually balanced, if multiple playstyles were equally viable, there wouldn’t be this endless discrimination against anyone who isn’t running the current meta.

And here’s the real kicker: ZOS keeps advertising ESO with the slogan “Play how you want.” But the reality is the opposite, set design and balancing push everyone into the same narrow beam meta. If you actually try to “play how you want,” you’re punished for it even in basic content, whether through weak sets, bad scaling, or being excluded from groups. The marketing and the gameplay direction just don’t line up.

Sorry you got a dickhead. Not all us meta slaves are like that. Ha builds done well do vet level damage just fine.

Fwiw my herald/assassin/ardent beam machine runs around 18-20k health because I cant sustain on anything but parse food, so not that unusual. The rest is on them though lol.

Also I despise ha playstyle too*. Love my arc, at least I did until I had to make it 1/3 dk. Never wanted to play dk but what do you do, not do damage?


*for myself. Someone else likes it good for them.

frogthroat wrote: »

In this particular conversation OP was talking about vet pledge from yesterday. I would assume Dread Cellar because the base games you can finish naked. And I assume they were not doing a nuke tactic because they were a PUG, so high dps can even be bad when you all of a sudden have a million ads after you.

Meta has its place. In a highly optimised group doing the most difficult content, trying to get the most difficult achievements, yes, optimise. Use meta and meta only. Have 130k dps limits minimum. Maybe even higher if you want to get to the top of rankings.

But in other content, demanding meta is a bit overkill. In the 75% example, I really wouldn't care. Unless skipping some annoying mechanic is needing 5k extra dps, it really doesn't matter that much. Yes, high dps is slightly faster but what do you really gain?

Let's throw some random numbers together. Let's say there's 2 dungeon dd's. One has meta and does 100k dps. Another has off-meta and does 75k dps. (For ease of calculations, % -> dps.) The boss has 10M health. No ads, tank keeps the boss all the time so dd's can simply parse.

They are done in 10,000,000 / (100,000 + 75,000) seconds. As in, 57 seconds.

Now, if both would do 100k dps, then the time spent on that boss would drop to... *drum roll* ...50 seconds.

If your schedule is so tight that these 7 seconds matter, what are you doing playing a video game?!

(If the dps would be 140k and 105k (75% of 140) then the difference between these against two 140k players would be in the same scenario 40s and 36s, respectively. Yay! Saved 4 seconds!)

You lose more by missing a mechanic. Or even just deconstructing between pulls to get more inventory space.

Exactly, you nailed it. Pushing for strict meta builds in content where bosses don’t even have an enrage timer is pure insanity. ESO just doesn’t work like WoW raids where you hit a wall if the boss isn’t dead by X time- 99% of fights here are about mechanics, not a hard DPS check.

I’m sitting around 95k DPS, but my build is designed for survivability and utility. I don’t just tunnel damage, I can self-heal, I stay alive through most fights, I’ve got CP set up to rez people faster, and in many runs I end up as the last man standing cleaning up when others drop. To me, that’s far more valuable than squeezing out an extra 5–10k DPS and then eating dirt the second mechanics get messy.

And that’s really the issue: when design funnels everyone into the same DPS race, people forget that survivability, utility, and consistency matter just as much (if not more) in actual group play. If meta-chasing is shaving 7 seconds off a boss fight but costing wipes because nobody can rez or survive mechanics, who’s really helping the group?

heaven13 wrote: »

The player matters, yes. I don't disagree. But throwing some numbers at it and saying "see, it's not that bad" doesn't fit this particular conversation.

You wildly missed the point. You are still basing it on a spreadsheet and not actual. The only way to see is to allow players to use their non-meta in content and see the difference.

It's also worth remembering content is not designed around 100% damage potential with 100% efficiency.

Gabriel_H wrote: »

heaven13 wrote: »

The player matters, yes. I don't disagree. But throwing some numbers at it and saying "see, it's not that bad" doesn't fit this particular conversation.

You wildly missed the point. You are still basing it on a spreadsheet and not actual. The only way to see is to allow players to use their non-meta in content and see the difference.

It's also worth remembering content is not designed around 100% damage potential with 100% efficiency.

Ok, and how do you propose to fix this? To force all groups to bring everyone regardless of their build? How do you propose to enforce this?

Yes, there are a lot of players who play off-meta setups reasonably well. The fact still remains that the average and maximum potential of an off-meta build are still significantly lower than the average and maximum potential of an Arcbladeplar. And that’s just numbers.

I know people who run trials and allow off-meta builds. Heck, one of my friends raid-led a vAS+2 last weekend in a social guild and told them to bring Oakensoul builds and it cleared, giving 9 of the 12 people in group their first vAS HM. But raid leads like that who are willing to really work with groups are few and far between, especially since ESO’s balance is chasing a lot of those people off. And I even know people who claim that the guy who got a whole team of Oakenbuilds through a vAS HM is “toxic” because he made any suggestion to their builds whatsoever.

To be honest, a lot of these “gatekeepy” players have been burned by people with off-meta builds before - I’ve seen plenty of people who proudly proclaim that “it’s okay that they have low DPS as long as they know mechanics!” while proceeding to botch every mechanic. Not to mention that there are a number of people who are convinced that their solo-everything build is perfect because they need their self heals and armor, conveniently forgetting that the point of group content is to have healers and tanks taking care of that for you so you can focus on damage.

How would you feel if someone came up to you and said “Hi, I’ve never met you but I don’t trust that you can do your job to heal me so I’m slotting self heals to keep myslef alive. Also I’m offended that people don’t trust me to do my job and are implying my damage is low.”

Numbers also say that for the highest echelons of content (hard mode trials after Kyne’s), there honestly isn’t much wiggle room either - they’re balanced around groups which are able to put out obscene amounts of damage. And there, that “7 seconds of difference” is also the difference between a group wipe from Taleria’s mages being up too long and a clear.

You’re never going to get rid of toxicity. Ever. But if there wasn’t such a huge gap between the top build and the next one, then people would be more used to seeing other ways than what the 0.0001% of players do. If the balance were better, people would be less gatekeepy.

I know i have posted something on this thread already but i would like to address this as well. Do you guys think this is gatekeeping or just high expectation? The boldest measures are the safest.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Sorry, but I'm not going to carry a HA DD

But why? I neeeeed carry because it's late and I am too tired to do a second parse.


Edit: oh yeah, and this is practically one bar. Replace back bar crit surge with spell power potions and you never need to visit the back bar.

Good leaders and supports go a long way, vOC included. All of these runs cleared, though some lasting over an hour because vOC has a stupid amount of trash pulls and we did all the sides. This was a few months ago since I haven't been doing trials lately, I think we had got most of the fights down. Skooma Emporium's leads actually had some good strats for getting the first down quicker even with our unoptimized groups.

last boss on unoptimized NB oakensoul


last boss on voidmantle sorc


#5 on my Arc, same boss


Each fight was different and had a few GF pugs to fill most likely. People aren't doing trials in our guilds as much, I think players are down in general in them. I haven't done any trials with them even and I had been a regular for a long time, after the latest nerfs and they removed the double drops I just noped on trials in general for awhile.

HA are totally viable non HM, haters are gonna hate. It doesn't take that long to fill your stickerbook and then they will run out of players wanting to bother. Especially with non-guild groups, those are just not fun for me usually. If I do find a good discord of raiders, I usually stick around. If they seem too stuck up or have too high of requirements I will bounce. At the end of the day, it is a game and supposed to be fun. Hopefully ZoS' new leadership will reinforce that to the combat team.

Soarora wrote: »

Treeshka wrote: »

I know i have posted something on this thread already but i would like to address this as well. Do you guys think this is gatekeeping or just high expectation? The boldest measures are the safest.

Pugging trials aren’t really comparable to pugging dungeons. Trial runs that are “anything goes” can and often do fail. Dungeon runs that are “anything goes” hardly fail.

That is extreme levels of gatekeeping. Heck, I like learning stuff as I go so I even dislike when they only ask for experienced players even if my gear/level are high enough to mitigate some mistakes.

The player's attitude is an issue, not the game balance itself. If they left after one boss or wipe, it's clearly not the dev's fault and it's not gatekeeping if they just don't want to play with randoms.

There have always been players who complained about players not using a certain set, playing a certain class, etc. This isn't really new, it's just the current flavor. Make friends and play with them instead.

There are good players using heavy attack builds and there are a lot of more casual players using heavy attack builds without trying too hard to deal high amounts of damage. I don't play with anyone who assumes that heavy attack players might be more casual or less capable, but I see where a judgy endgame player might get that impression, but it's really not a rule.

If you haven't tried a standard parse (against a dummy with parse food), it's worth a shot to create a baseline comparison to improve one's rotation and build.

Beam builds are a nice in-between for an easy and effective build—more involved than a heavy attack build, but also outperforming at the higher end.

kargen27 wrote: »

Asdara wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Nah it's bad players. There will always be a best set right up until they put us all in the same gear like the PvP tests that are happening. Then players will want to kick you for not running to next pull quick enough or standing in the wrong spot or who knows what. Those bad players are still going to be bad players.
What changes would make the bad players suddenly become decent?

its not "just bad player" prior to this year i've NEVER seen that many group in group finder actively refusing HA or onebar build.
If you want to stay on copium and say everything normal and its always been that way, well i can't pull you out of your cognitive dissonance.

See when you insult the messenger that tells me you don't have a legitimate response to the message. Again I ask what changes to the game would make these players with bad attitudes suddenly start acting decent?

Calling out copium isn’t an insult, it’s frustration at people pretending this has always been the same. It hasn’t. I’ve played since beta, and only recently have I seen HA and one-bar players consistently refused in group finder. That shift didn’t come out of nowhere, it came from design changes funneling everyone into one meta. No change will magically make every rude player ‘act decent,’ but better balance and viable alternatives would remove the excuses people hide behind to gatekeep in the first place.

Asdara wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Asdara wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Nah it's bad players. There will always be a best set right up until they put us all in the same gear like the PvP tests that are happening. Then players will want to kick you for not running to next pull quick enough or standing in the wrong spot or who knows what. Those bad players are still going to be bad players.
What changes would make the bad players suddenly become decent?

its not "just bad player" prior to this year i've NEVER seen that many group in group finder actively refusing HA or onebar build.
If you want to stay on copium and say everything normal and its always been that way, well i can't pull you out of your cognitive dissonance.

See when you insult the messenger that tells me you don't have a legitimate response to the message. Again I ask what changes to the game would make these players with bad attitudes suddenly start acting decent?

Calling out copium isn’t an insult, it’s frustration at people pretending this has always been the same. It hasn’t. I’ve played since beta, and only recently have I seen HA and one-bar players consistently refused in group finder. That shift didn’t come out of nowhere, it came from design changes funneling everyone into one meta. No change will magically make every rude player ‘act decent,’ but better balance and viable alternatives would remove the excuses people hide behind to gatekeep in the first place.

Also played since Beta and remember standing outside a dungeon hoping to be picked up for a group only to be asked what armor and skills I had on. I remember guilds only allowing players to join groups after completing a parse on a specific boss before we had target dummies. Some groups required a player prove they finished vet Maelstrom Arena before allowing that player to join. Claimed it proved situational awareness and the ability to do the mechanics. Requiring certain sets or preformance proof has always been a part of the game because of the players that make those demands.
The one-bar builds are getting grief now because so many players posted them in social media as a quick easy way to get high numbers. That led to a lot of less experienced players using the build and believing the hype. Those that can use the build effective got caught up in the generalization of it being a crutch build for beginners. For a while the one bar build was the flavor of the month and now it is not. Not the games fault.
Almost any build is viable unless you are trying for a trifecta or a place on the leader board. Some players demand certain builds in their groups hoping the high DPS will allow them to ignore mechanics. Again that is a player problem not a game problem. There will always be a META and there will always be players that make demands even if the difference is minimal.

I'm all for better balance but better balance isn't going to fix the problem that is being addressed here.

frogthroat wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Sorry, but I'm not going to carry a HA DD

But why? I neeeeed carry because it's late and I am too tired to do a second parse.


Edit: oh yeah, and this is practically one bar. Replace back bar crit surge with spell power potions and you never need to visit the back bar.

not even 120k, yeah sorry I'm not going to carry a HA DD

frogthroat wrote: »

Let's throw some random numbers together. Let's say there's 2 dungeon dd's. One has meta and does 100k dps. Another has off-meta and does 75k dps. (For ease of calculations, % -> dps.) The boss has 10M health. No ads, tank keeps the boss all the time so dd's can simply parse.

They are done in 10,000,000 / (100,000 + 75,000) seconds. As in, 57 seconds.

Now, if both would do 100k dps, then the time spent on that boss would drop to... *drum roll* ...50 seconds.

(HM)Xoryn's Chain Lightning fires approximately every 15-20 seconds, depending on latency and boss actions. A 57-second (rounded to 60) chance of encountering up to 3-4 Chain Lightning fires is possible, while a 50-second chance of encountering up to 3 or at least 2 Chain Lightning fires is possible.

According to Eso logs, a fight with (HM)Xoryn takes about 3-4 minutes, depending on the team. However, no one would give up 12 Chain Lightning fires to face up to 16.

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

frogthroat wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Sorry, but I'm not going to carry a HA DD

But why? I neeeeed carry because it's late and I am too tired to do a second parse.


Edit: oh yeah, and this is practically one bar. Replace back bar crit surge with spell power potions and you never need to visit the back bar.

98K, and area damage only accounts for about 40% of total DPS.

In contrast, any Arc/NB or DK or Templar can reach up to 120K up, with area damage accounting for 7-80% of total DPS. It also has self-healing (Cephaliarch's Flail), a shield (Fatecarver), and can achieve 125% critical damage and 18,200 pen without requiring a sup.

Any sane RL taking on a high-difficulty Trial would prefer the latter over the former.

The discussion started with OP having a gatekeeping experience in vet pledge. The DLC pledge for that day was Dread Cellar.

If you read these comments, including my previous comments, absolutely no one is saying that there shouldn't be some choosing in the high-difficulty trials. In fact, in my previous comments I recommend it.

Believe it or not, but there's also other content than trial trifectas. Do you absolutely need a highly optimised group to complete the simple Dread Cellar HM?

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Ok, and how do you propose to fix this? To force all groups to bring everyone regardless of their build? How do you propose to enforce this?

I'm simply pointing out the problem. The "fix" would be to alter mindsets, but that's never going to happen en-masse; and certainly not enforcing anything - enforcement being the problem.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Yes, there are a lot of players who play off-meta setups reasonably well. The fact still remains that the average and maximum potential of an off-meta build are still significantly lower than the average and maximum potential of an Arcbladeplar. And that’s just numbers.

And still not accounting for the player's ability to reach that maximum.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

To be honest, a lot of these “gatekeepy” players have been burned by people with off-meta builds before - I’ve seen plenty of people who proudly proclaim that “it’s okay that they have low DPS as long as they know mechanics!” while proceeding to botch every mechanic. Not to mention that there are a number of people who are convinced that their solo-everything build is perfect because they need their self heals and armor, conveniently forgetting that the point of group content is to have healers and tanks taking care of that for you so you can focus on damage.

How would you feel if someone came up to you and said “Hi, I’ve never met you but I don’t trust that you can do your job to heal me so I’m slotting self heals to keep myslef alive. Also I’m offended that people don’t trust me to do my job and are implying my damage is low.”

Not for nothing but there is a lot of group content where DDs should be speccing a self-heal. A dead DD does 0 dps.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Numbers also say that for the highest echelons of content (hard mode trials after Kyne’s), there honestly isn’t much wiggle room either - they’re balanced around groups which are able to put out obscene amounts of damage. And there, that “7 seconds of difference” is also the difference between a group wipe from Taleria’s mages being up too long and a clear.

The game has DPS checks, but those checks are not set at 100% of possible damage. There are also places where too much damage can lead to a wipe. That same content requires tanks and healers to be on point with their positioning - that's a player skill, not the power of their build.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

You’re never going to get rid of toxicity. Ever. But if there wasn’t such a huge gap between the top build and the next one, then people would be more used to seeing other ways than what the 0.0001% of players do. If the balance were better, people would be less gatekeepy.

I'm not denying the balance couldn't be better, I'm saying it's not strictly needed. Again, the game is not balanced around the 100% damage potential having 100% efficiency.