Marto wrote: »

Rich Lambert was pretty transparent about this on his livestreams. The reason why Cyrodiil didn't get any content all these years is the poor performance.

Soo...the guy who loaded up the game with troll sets and skills has the answers to 'fix' PvP?

Interesting.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Do people realize how delusional it is to think there is any possibility that ZOS would support two different versions of cyrodiil at the same time? It's going to be one or the other. ZOS is actively working on vengeance mode rather than working on fixing any issues with current live mode. So it's very confusing trying to understand why this so obvious reality is not sinking in with those promoting vengeance. It's going to be one or the other at some point, and ZOS is not investing time or money into their current live mode. This isn't rocket science to see what's happening.

Everyone who's going to PvP is already doing so. PvE players aren't going to backfill the PvP population for vengeance mode.

The problem with your argument is that you assume vengeance isnt being developed at all or ever in the future. If you were to add in all the other build features morphs, mundus, food, gear, cp, etc at the end of the day the game would be indistinguishable except with cleaner code. Your assumption and worry like most people is because zos wont release a roadmap of the plans 1-2 years out. Whether it is because it is a hard pill to swallow or because it all depends on the test data, or most likely both.

The second issue is that you assume we have all the pvpers we ever could have on the market as happily as ever.....which is just not true, there are thousands of players that would like to play if the combat was inviting, unlaggy, and in a functional non-bloated state.

The third issue is that you assume people are only pve or pvp players when in reality many people are both, but live pvp has run away to a point where it is going to make itself die out. The build gap from horizontal progression makes the barrier of entry too much for newer players unless they have a guiding hand spew knowledge on them for hours straight. Then even if you are a pvper you have to login each day hoping the right blend of pugs login before ballgroups and guildgroups to dilute the server lag down to acceptable levels. Chances are half the days you CAN play it is going to be a waste of time. So new players cant start while the environment is pushing out current players, not a winning business strategy longterm, not worth investing time or money into.

---

Imagine if your local restaurant kept making so extravagant meals orders kept backing up. At some point they had to keep reducing the number of tables available in the restaurant. Eventually to only seat 1/4 the population. Now if daily, the majority of the tables cater to large party groups while the single or small tables get ignored without food what happens? What happens to new people coming to try out this restaurant, they can only get in 1/4 the time, and then even if they do, they are almost never served food?.................The scary thought is what happens when after so many people get sick you only have the regular large groups coming in. What happens then if one of the large groups disband or never return? For instance if these daily large groups tables hate each other and are constant fighting.

This scenario has already played out 2x with the u50 newbie campaign and the nocp campaign. Except an even worse issue arises because once one faction has their large guild party disband, the other factions will inevitably bully the weak faction to the point where that table of people leaves the restaurant. So after disbanding that faction's solo/pug player base will be bullied into leaving until it is really only a 2 faction warfare to see who lasts the longest until one disbands again leaving only one faction with guild groups.

At this point why not jump ship to the next new upcoming restaurant? Who cares if the menu is still being added to, I am hungry, at least you could suggest what food items they should make. I was there to watch the u50 collapse and the nocp collapse, CP cyrodil pvp is literally all that is left and it is following the exact same trends as before.

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Vengeance IS NOT sustainable. Live cyrodiil with performance and higher pop caps IS sustainable. We know because we've seen it before in the past. ZOS can fix live cyrodiil if they made the commitment to make it happen.

Performance would require a fundamental change. The problem is the server calcs are too much. DoT stacking, HoT stacking, Shield Stacking, procs sets - all would require severe limitations. See: Vengeance.

Personally I'll be all for limiting DoTs to one per type, additional DoTs replacing/refreshing what is there; along with splitting healing into 3 types (Holy, Dark and Arcane) and doing the same to HoTs. That isn't going to happen though, because ZOS have it in their head that players only care about big numbers - players put that idea there.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Do people realize how delusional it is to think there is any possibility that ZOS would support two different versions of cyrodiil at the same time? It's going to be one or the other. ZOS is actively working on vengeance mode rather than working on fixing any issues with current live mode. So it's very confusing trying to understand why this so obvious reality is not sinking in with those promoting vengeance. It's going to be one or the other at some point, and ZOS is not investing time or money into their current live mode. This isn't rocket science to see what's happening.

Everyone who's going to PvP is already doing so. PvE players aren't going to backfill the PvP population for vengeance mode.

The problem with your argument is that you assume vengeance isnt being developed at all or ever in the future. If you were to add in all the other build features morphs, mundus, food, gear, cp, etc at the end of the day the game would be indistinguishable except with cleaner code. Your assumption and worry like most people is because zos wont release a roadmap of the plans 1-2 years out. Whether it is because it is a hard pill to swallow or because it all depends on the test data, or most likely both.

The second issue is that you assume we have all the pvpers we ever could have on the market as happily as ever.....which is just not true, there are thousands of players that would like to play if the combat was inviting, unlaggy, and in a functional non-bloated state.

The third issue is that you assume people are only pve or pvp players when in reality many people are both, but live pvp has run away to a point where it is going to make itself die out. The build gap from horizontal progression makes the barrier of entry too much for newer players unless they have a guiding hand spew knowledge on them for hours straight. Then even if you are a pvper you have to login each day hoping the right blend of pugs login before ballgroups and guildgroups to dilute the server lag down to acceptable levels. Chances are half the days you CAN play it is going to be a waste of time. So new players cant start while the environment is pushing out current players, not a winning business strategy longterm, not worth investing time or money into.

---

Imagine if your local restaurant kept making so extravagant meals orders kept backing up. At some point they had to keep reducing the number of tables available in the restaurant. Eventually to only seat 1/4 the population. Now if daily, the majority of the tables cater to large party groups while the single or small tables get ignored without food what happens? What happens to new people coming to try out this restaurant, they can only get in 1/4 the time, and then even if they do, they are almost never served food?.................The scary thought is what happens when after so many people get sick you only have the regular large groups coming in. What happens then if one of the large groups disband or never return? For instance if these daily large groups tables hate each other and are constant fighting.

This scenario has already played out 2x with the u50 newbie campaign and the nocp campaign. Except an even worse issue arises because once one faction has their large guild party disband, the other factions will inevitably bully the weak faction to the point where that table of people leaves the restaurant. So after disbanding that faction's solo/pug player base will be bullied into leaving until it is really only a 2 faction warfare to see who lasts the longest until one disbands again leaving only one faction with guild groups.

At this point why not jump ship to the next new upcoming restaurant? Who cares if the menu is still being added to, I am hungry, at least you could suggest what food items they should make. I was there to watch the u50 collapse and the nocp collapse, CP cyrodil pvp is literally all that is left and it is following the exact same trends as before.

Your posts are not reflective of what the majority of the PvP community think. Your posts read like they're from the perspective of a PvE player who's struggled with the very steep learning curve there is to be competitive in PvP.

reazea wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Do people realize how delusional it is to think there is any possibility that ZOS would support two different versions of cyrodiil at the same time? It's going to be one or the other. ZOS is actively working on vengeance mode rather than working on fixing any issues with current live mode. So it's very confusing trying to understand why this so obvious reality is not sinking in with those promoting vengeance. It's going to be one or the other at some point, and ZOS is not investing time or money into their current live mode. This isn't rocket science to see what's happening.

Everyone who's going to PvP is already doing so. PvE players aren't going to backfill the PvP population for vengeance mode.

The problem with your argument is that you assume vengeance isnt being developed at all or ever in the future. If you were to add in all the other build features morphs, mundus, food, gear, cp, etc at the end of the day the game would be indistinguishable except with cleaner code. Your assumption and worry like most people is because zos wont release a roadmap of the plans 1-2 years out. Whether it is because it is a hard pill to swallow or because it all depends on the test data, or most likely both.

The second issue is that you assume we have all the pvpers we ever could have on the market as happily as ever.....which is just not true, there are thousands of players that would like to play if the combat was inviting, unlaggy, and in a functional non-bloated state.

The third issue is that you assume people are only pve or pvp players when in reality many people are both, but live pvp has run away to a point where it is going to make itself die out. The build gap from horizontal progression makes the barrier of entry too much for newer players unless they have a guiding hand spew knowledge on them for hours straight. Then even if you are a pvper you have to login each day hoping the right blend of pugs login before ballgroups and guildgroups to dilute the server lag down to acceptable levels. Chances are half the days you CAN play it is going to be a waste of time. So new players cant start while the environment is pushing out current players, not a winning business strategy longterm, not worth investing time or money into.

---

Imagine if your local restaurant kept making so extravagant meals orders kept backing up. At some point they had to keep reducing the number of tables available in the restaurant. Eventually to only seat 1/4 the population. Now if daily, the majority of the tables cater to large party groups while the single or small tables get ignored without food what happens? What happens to new people coming to try out this restaurant, they can only get in 1/4 the time, and then even if they do, they are almost never served food?.................The scary thought is what happens when after so many people get sick you only have the regular large groups coming in. What happens then if one of the large groups disband or never return? For instance if these daily large groups tables hate each other and are constant fighting.

This scenario has already played out 2x with the u50 newbie campaign and the nocp campaign. Except an even worse issue arises because once one faction has their large guild party disband, the other factions will inevitably bully the weak faction to the point where that table of people leaves the restaurant. So after disbanding that faction's solo/pug player base will be bullied into leaving until it is really only a 2 faction warfare to see who lasts the longest until one disbands again leaving only one faction with guild groups.

At this point why not jump ship to the next new upcoming restaurant? Who cares if the menu is still being added to, I am hungry, at least you could suggest what food items they should make. I was there to watch the u50 collapse and the nocp collapse, CP cyrodil pvp is literally all that is left and it is following the exact same trends as before.

Your posts are not reflective of what the majority of the PvP community think. Your posts read like they're from the perspective of a PvE player who's struggled with the very steep learning curve there is to be competitive in PvP.

Ahh yes the character attack argument. "You don't agree with me or my circle of friends so you must be bad". If you tried arguing in good faith and actually refuting points you may stand more ground to change my mind. For instance you could have pointed out in my first paragraph zos's track record of saying they are going to follow through and then failing to do so when corporate steps in to pull people away for quarterly quotas. Hybridization? Older cyrodil tests? Promised cyrodil incentives? Cyrodil hammer and other legendary weapons?

The second paragraph you could have argued that people love live cyrodil and could get into how the lag is not that bad or the fact that group combat design isn't running rampant over solo/1vX/casual design.

The third paragraph you could try to argue that youtubers can explain and release "meta builds" that people can use to jumpstart their knowledge.