Subclassing: How to make skills not look jarring together?

joshisanonymous · September 11

I have plenty of issues with subclassing, but even as I try to embrace it to see what's possible, one thing keeps making me want to just stick to pure class builds: skills from different classes look really bad together.

I tried adding an arcanist line to my NB to focus more heavily on DPS (I'm usually a healer), and it did indeed increase my damage a ton, but I just couldn't stick with it because my classy looking, shadowy NB now had a neon green weapon and all these neon green FX swirling around him. I then tried the same thing with a templar line, and while it also did wonders for my damage, I had to pretty much stick to using it just for passives because everything is a shiny, majestic spear from the heavens, which again, doesn't go at all with my classy, shadowy NB.

I also tried both a necro and a DK line, and those went well with my NB thematically, but they were pretty underwhelming in effectiveness. The necro especially feels like it only works if you have multiple necro lines. The DK was alright, but I tried using it to improve my healing, and it wasn't really any more effective than just using siphoning and a resto staff, so it was a net loss because I had to give up either my damage line or my utility line, both of which are what make the NB feel like an NB in the first place.

My personal experience then is that I can either be effective and look stupid or look alright and be ineffective, so I'm not very sold on using subclassing for myself, but as a PvP player, I'm aware that others don't care about looking stupid if it means they can explode people instantly, and so I'm effectively handicapped now because of subclassing.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour · September 11

I really wish they would allow us to choose our own skill colors.

SilverBride · September 11

One thing I noticed is that a Sorcerer subclassing a Necromancer and placing tombstones around just looks like a Necromancer. And a Sorcerer subclassing an Arcanist and beaming around just looks like an Arcanist. I think a Sorcerer should look like a Sorcerer no matter which classes they are subclassing.

MincMincMinc · September 11

SilverBride wrote: »

One thing I noticed is that a Sorcerer subclassing a Necromancer and placing tombstones around just looks like a Necromancer. And a Sorcerer subclassing an Arcanist and beaming around just looks like an Arcanist. I think a Sorcerer should look like a Sorcerer no matter which classes they are subclassing.

Well you are highlighting original game design genius.

Because hardware and the servers couldnt handle the crazy animations and calculations the original game was designed such that the earlier more spammable common skills were far less bloated with effects and calculations. More recent designs have forgotten this as we see combat become animation soup. More and more DLC proc sets only further this. Mythics add another possible proc effect and animation as well.

Not only is this a performance issue, but if you think just game and combat clarity wise. CC are always a major frustration point in pvp, usually it boils down to people not being able to see an animation if it exists at all. In the old days you would just look at the enemy doing a 1.5s cast time dizzy swing before being clearly stunned. Now adays we are lucky if there is an animation at all or any sort of telegraph. Look at offbalance and try to distinguish the animation.

Another aspect is that having simpler common skills can really highlight the gamechangers or unique class skills and ults. Once power creep bakes spammable skills to the ult level, everything starts feeling dull. For instance skills like deep fissure scale the same as dawnbreaker now adays. Go numerically compare what Merciless bow does and you will puke. UESP SKILL TOOL

Avran_Sylt · September 11

Skill styles seem to be the way to do so going forward, but the FOMO and time-limited nature of everything makes it hair-pullingly annoying to try and make anything coherent within any sensible timeframe, especially if you're away or weren't aware of the offerings.

Which, ironically, is a hindrance/annoyance for new/returning players.

AcadianPaladin · September 11

The idea of skills when used together being jarring doesn't need / isn't the fault of subclassing. Warden Animal Companions with Warden Winter Embrace skills are already jarring when used together. OP has the right of it though, choices have consequences. Choose skills based on your objectives. Hopefully, more skill styles can help soften any jarring and render more happy combinations.

CalamityCat · September 11

This is why I stuck with pure class builds. Even with skill styles it would still make no sense for my characters to take one or two class lines that make no sense and don't fit even with their alignment. Also, I think pure builds just have a generally cohesive playstyle and feel that you can't get from illogical pick-and-mix subclass combinations.

My current mindset is that I can still do what I could before subclassing, and fortunately have zero interest in doing vet trials. PvP actually feels better for my main builds, and was the only thing I thought I'd get caught out on. So I stuck with my pure classes. I hate that pure builds take a hit every time something needs "balancing" for subclassing, but I've fully quit chasing meta and parsing on dummies. Even with skill styles I can't see a way to make subclassing suit me or my characters. I can't imagine any dev time being spent sorting the jarring aesthetic mish-mash.

Tariq9898 · September 11

Adding skill styles can solve this!!

And by skill styles, I do not just mean color change, but also a change an animation and sound. They’ve done it before with the World-Eater volley!

These skill styles should also complement the fuse between different skill lines. For example, pairing Warden and Necromancer would grant you the skeletal bear look.

Or pairing DK’s Standard of Might with the Nightblade will create a ring of red/black aura that has the same effect/damage.

Ultimately, I think this is also the path to solving Class Identity.

Erickson9610 · September 11

Tariq9898 wrote: »

These skill styles should also complement the fuse between different skill lines. For example, pairing Warden and Necromancer would grant you the skeletal bear look.

I want a skeletal bear without being either a Necromancer or a Warden as my base class. That Skill Style just sounds cool — I'd Subclass into Animal Companions and Grave Lord while being a Templar and command a skeletal bear alongside other skeletal summons. I'd pay Crowns for that.

Tariq9898 · September 12

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

These skill styles should also complement the fuse between different skill lines. For example, pairing Warden and Necromancer would grant you the skeletal bear look.

I want a skeletal bear without being either a Necromancer or a Warden as my base class. That Skill Style just sounds cool — I'd Subclass into Animal Companions and Grave Lord while being a Templar and command a skeletal bear alongside other skeletal summons. I'd pay Crowns for that.

Sure, that works too! My point being is that ZOS needs to add more skill styles! They can also change the lighting and sound effects of the Templar to suit a more “death paladin” style.

tomofhyrule · September 12

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

The idea of skills when used together being jarring doesn't need / isn't the fault of subclassing. Warden Animal Companions with Warden Winter Embrace skills are already jarring when used together. OP has the right of it though, choices have consequences. Choose skills based on your objectives. Hopefully, more skill styles can help soften any jarring and render more happy combinations.

This is another YMMV thing though.

I know a lot of people think Warden has no consistency, but I made mine a Skaal. After all, a 1) nature-themed 2) Nord who lives in the cold who 3) calls on animals? It’s almost like that was made for him.

Erickson9610 · September 12

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

These skill styles should also complement the fuse between different skill lines. For example, pairing Warden and Necromancer would grant you the skeletal bear look.

I want a skeletal bear without being either a Necromancer or a Warden as my base class. That Skill Style just sounds cool — I'd Subclass into Animal Companions and Grave Lord while being a Templar and command a skeletal bear alongside other skeletal summons. I'd pay Crowns for that.

Sure, that works too! My point being is that ZOS needs to add more skill styles! They also also change the lighting and sound effects of the Templar to suit a more “death paladin” style.

A death paladin sounds sick! There's a lot of possibilities when Class skills are given styles more closely reminiscent of one another.

Tariq9898 · September 12

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

These skill styles should also complement the fuse between different skill lines. For example, pairing Warden and Necromancer would grant you the skeletal bear look.

I want a skeletal bear without being either a Necromancer or a Warden as my base class. That Skill Style just sounds cool — I'd Subclass into Animal Companions and Grave Lord while being a Templar and command a skeletal bear alongside other skeletal summons. I'd pay Crowns for that.

Sure, that works too! My point being is that ZOS needs to add more skill styles! They also also change the lighting and sound effects of the Templar to suit a more “death paladin” style.

A death paladin sounds sick! There's a lot of possibilities when Class skills are given styles more closely reminiscent of one another.

Or if you’re also a Vampire you could be a blood paladin!

CalamityCat · September 12

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Adding skill styles can solve this!!

It honestly can't though.

While some players might be okay with skills looking visually similar, having cohesion is about more than appearances. It just makes zero sense to have a character with these skill line combinations. They were never designed to work with other class skills and you can tell. Every class is distinctive right down to the bones. Combat and playstyle are different, the classes suit different alignments and player characters in a RP sense too.

A full set of skill styles as you suggest would be a significant undertaking. They would also cost us a fortune in crowns, because that isn't something we'd get for free.

Sadly, I can't imagine ZOS are interested in this issue either. Pure class players seem to be mostly ignored and nerfed whenever a subclass build gets too OP.

BretonMage · September 12

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Erickson9610 wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

These skill styles should also complement the fuse between different skill lines. For example, pairing Warden and Necromancer would grant you the skeletal bear look.

I want a skeletal bear without being either a Necromancer or a Warden as my base class. That Skill Style just sounds cool — I'd Subclass into Animal Companions and Grave Lord while being a Templar and command a skeletal bear alongside other skeletal summons. I'd pay Crowns for that.

Sure, that works too! My point being is that ZOS needs to add more skill styles! They can also change the lighting and sound effects of the Templar to suit a more “death paladin” style.

I don't know, that sounds a lot more D&D and not like TES at all. The TES equivalent would be more like a daedric worshipper? Some kind of daedric knight? I think we need to keep subclasses consistent with TES lore at the very least.

joshisanonymous · September 12

CalamityCat wrote: »

This is why I stuck with pure class builds. Even with skill styles it would still make no sense for my characters to take one or two class lines that make no sense and don't fit even with their alignment. Also, I think pure builds just have a generally cohesive playstyle and feel that you can't get from illogical pick-and-mix subclass combinations.

My current mindset is that I can still do what I could before subclassing, and fortunately have zero interest in doing vet trials. PvP actually feels better for my main builds, and was the only thing I thought I'd get caught out on. So I stuck with my pure classes. I hate that pure builds take a hit every time something needs "balancing" for subclassing, but I've fully quit chasing meta and parsing on dummies. Even with skill styles I can't see a way to make subclassing suit me or my characters. I can't imagine any dev time being spent sorting the jarring aesthetic mish-mash.

Your point about pure classes having a more cohesive playstyle rings true for me, too. In a way, subclassing now makes pure classes feel like the hybrids in that they're not going to be the best at any one role but they're more flexible. If you want a pure DPS, you should combine 3 DPS lines; a pure tank, 3 tank lines; a pure healer, 3 healer lines. If you go with a pure class, though, you're really playing a hybrid build now.

Tariq9898 · September 12

CalamityCat wrote: »

Tariq9898 wrote: »

Adding skill styles can solve this!!

It honestly can't though.

While some players might be okay with skills looking visually similar, having cohesion is about more than appearances. It just makes zero sense to have a character with these skill line combinations. They were never designed to work with other class skills and you can tell. Every class is distinctive right down to the bones. Combat and playstyle are different, the classes suit different alignments and player characters in a RP sense too.

A full set of skill styles as you suggest would be a significant undertaking. They would also cost us a fortune in crowns, because that isn't something we'd get for free. Sadly, I can't imagine ZOS are interested in this issue either. Pure class players seem to be mostly ignored and nerfed whenever a subclass build gets too OP.

They do need to bring more incentives to pure classes.

colossalvoids · September 12

There definitely should be base game pack offering all subclassed skills to obey the visual theme of a base class you chose at the very minimum. Alternatively in a meantime the only thing that can glue it together is an outfit that thematically binds the colours or possible theme no matter how absurd of a combo you have. Honestly embracing something Mora-like if you chose arcanist as a subclass is the safest bet, preferably black to go with both green and red, at least that's working fine for me.

tomofhyrule · September 12

joshisanonymous wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

This is why I stuck with pure class builds. Even with skill styles it would still make no sense for my characters to take one or two class lines that make no sense and don't fit even with their alignment. Also, I think pure builds just have a generally cohesive playstyle and feel that you can't get from illogical pick-and-mix subclass combinations.

My current mindset is that I can still do what I could before subclassing, and fortunately have zero interest in doing vet trials. PvP actually feels better for my main builds, and was the only thing I thought I'd get caught out on. So I stuck with my pure classes. I hate that pure builds take a hit every time something needs "balancing" for subclassing, but I've fully quit chasing meta and parsing on dummies. Even with skill styles I can't see a way to make subclassing suit me or my characters. I can't imagine any dev time being spent sorting the jarring aesthetic mish-mash.

Your point about pure classes having a more cohesive playstyle rings true for me, too. In a way, subclassing now makes pure classes feel like the hybrids in that they're not going to be the best at any one role but they're more flexible. If you want a pure DPS, you should combine 3 DPS lines; a pure tank, 3 tank lines; a pure healer, 3 healer lines. If you go with a pure class, though, you're really playing a hybrid build now.

See, this is the crux of the entire argument, and why people can't agree. Everyone can get the idea that "hard-focused" builds should be more powerful than "jack of all trades," but we all define them differently.

Are we talking about the character's role? Then yes, a Subclassed 3xDPS line should do more damage, but be more fragile than a pureclass, considering the pureclass can do all three roles on one character.
Or are we talking about the character's archetype? At that point, someone who hard-focuses into their three class lines will play a certain way (e.g. DKs tend toward tankiness and DoTs, sorcs toward mobility and distance, etc.), but a Subclassed build can overcome their class's innate weaknesses with a different line.

I personally prefer the second way of thinking - in games like D&D, a character who retains one Class will have access to the most powerful skills, while someone who picks up a multiclass now has more versatility but can't access the most powerful spells of either. As such, there's a reason that players would have to choose one or the other. In the former, it's mostly just "trade things you didn't use for things that give you more power for free." It's not a choice anymore, and it leads to absurd power creep.
...and it's not even well done as is, or else you would see pureclasses be favored in places where you do want to be able to do all three roles like solo arenas or PvP, and you absolutely don't.

tmacedo · 2:51AM

Yeah. I just wanted to have a paladin, but Templars sucks for tank in this game for some reason. I subclassed winters embrace and soldier of apocrypha to make it more viable (I only tank in 4-people). Cant really pass those lines, especially soldier of apocrypha. Imagine the colorfest of yellow, blue and green. Its awful visually , yet good for gameplay. Being a "soldier od apocrypha" annoys me too for the toons lore perspective but what can I do, the line is so good I cant pass.

Let me at least make all skills yellow. Will make it more bearable.