metheglyn wrote: »

You know, I hadn't really thought about that aspect of the quest writing before--how the language itself has become more casual over time. I do think you're correct in that it has shifted. I wouldn't say every npc spoke in the exact same style, because a Bosmer would sound different from an Altmer and so forth, but there does seem to be less distinction between npc speech habits as well as a trend towards more casual speech.

Definitely. In the base game you would clearly notice some cultural differences and most of all differences in speech between, let's say, a farmer, a mercenary, a noble and a scholar. And subtly so, not in an exaggerated, clichéd way. Recently, I have the impression that the only thing that often marks scholars as scholars is the use of complicated (sometimes over-complicated) terms, but there's not actually a big difference in the speech style itself.

Although at times they still did it well, with a few characters - in particular with the companions. I find it really notable with Azandar and Zerith-var (at least in German, not sure how their original lines are). I think it's a part of why they are my favorite companions.

metheglyn wrote: »

The humor was perhaps a bit more subtle back then, maybe less broad, but there's always been that all-out goofy humor like the Jester's Festival (of which I'm not a fan).

I mean, the Jester's Festival is particularly about being silly, in a more or less frivolous way. So I'm fine with that. I can remember that in the first few years, it stood out because of that - because the rest of the content was more or less serious.

There was something a little more light-hearted at times, of course. But it was a better balance, I guess? Between all tragic and serious stories, there were a few funnier moments. The overall tone was more grim, which fit the situation of Tamriel - with the Planemeld and the War. The jokes were short moments of light in that overall gloom. Not sure if some people might have disliked that, but considering the game's topic, I personally found the atmosphere fitting - appropriate, immersive.

Now, in contrast to that, almost everything seems to be a joke, either entirely, or you have at least a few jokes strewn in in every longer quest, or some silly quip in a situation that actually should feel serious. I, personally, didn't really feel the threat anymore in the latest story (and neither most inhabitants of Solstice, it seems). That doesn't help, for me at least, to get immersed in the story.

It's like instead of emotionally motivating us to go through the main quest through the actual feeling of threat and urgency, we're supposed to just bash the Worm Cult because we enjoy bashing baddies or something. Because "violence = fun"? Because "Being the good guy and bashing the ones marked as evil = self-aggrandizing (You're the awesome great hero! Virtuous! Correct! On the right side!) = fun"? I don't know. For me, it doesn't work, because being "the hero" is nothing I ever cared for. I don't enjoy this whole clear black/white or good/evil scheme with a clear awesome hero and the bad baddies being bad because they're the baddies. I'd rather be morally grey and have antagonists that are morally grey, nuance instead of clichés. Like in real life. In the end, this is probably the big factor we'll always return to in this thread.

As a comparison, even it might seem strange at first (I don't know): I can remember that in the early 2000's, there were some first person shooter games where you would just run around and basically shoot and destroy everything. Kills! Blood splatter effects! Explosions! One had the huge celebrated feature that you could basically shoot the whole landscape down, including all buildings and walls. The destruction and explosions were basically the selling point. It was supposed to be fun to be destructive. And maybe it's something cathartic for some people. I don't argue with that. Then, on the other hand, you had shooter games that had a real story and sometimes even roleplay elements. Of course you were still shooting masses of npcs there, but it wasn't supposed to be the main element or motivation for playing. The motivation was going through the story, and you could also decide to sneak through places and avoid violence. Now, of course you can do that too in ESO - sneaking, or running through without killing a few npcs you need to kill for the story to progress. I'm not talking about the level of violence here or the number of enemy npcs - but about the background motivation while playing. I have a feeling that there might also be a shift in sentiment with ESO, from the stories and emotional reactions to these stories being seen as the player's motivation to progress, to... "It's fun to kill the baddies".

Which I find somehow unimmersive by itself, because... Who are we supposed to play? There's a big difference between a character (mercenary?) who goes on a rampage because they enjoy killing evil cultists, or... well, anything else that can be roleplayed, really. I can say I usually don't roleplay someone who walks around killing people for fun (and if so, it's rather limited to certain situations and also has a narrational background, no matter if you're playing an assassin, or an arena fighter who might also enjoy fighting and doesn't only do it for a living). Anyway, usually, the killing of enemy characters is motivated by story elements - ending a threat, rescueing someone. There is no fun element for going on these quests from the character's or in-narration perspective, it's about taking a lethal risk because it's necessary. And I guess many people rather roleplay such characters than someone who goes out because they enjoy killing opponents? One person of course might/should enjoy the fighting - but it' the player, not the player character. That's one of the reasons many of us play, the enjoy the fighting. But that's an unimmersed, real-world focus. Is it enough? I can say that for me it isn't. My character also needs a plausible motivation for these fights, within the story.

Of course, for people who don't roleplay at all but just hunt for achievements or scores or the like in ESO, this probably doesn't matter. I think I saw a thread a few days ago about whether having an idea about the character we're playing here is important to people or not. There were people for whom their character is nothing more than a random item they move through the game to do the fighting. And that's fine. I'm not going to tell anyone how to play their game. I'm just saying that with that view of the game, "The fighting is fun" is probably motivation enough - but as soon as someone plays their avatar as an actual roleplay character, the narration becomes important. Atmosphere and mood become important. A motivation for that character to go through the story is needed. "Killing the baddies is fun" alone, I think, doesn't achieve that for many people, because that would not be most of our characters' motivation or way or thinking, within the world they live in.

But actually we were at the topic of humour I wanted to add that Cadwell was certainly a bit of a comedic character in the base game main quest. But as he was accompanying us through a generally gloomy story, he served as a small contrast. If everything had been more or less funny, not only would his lines probably not have had the effect they had, but it might have felt too much in total. It's the contrast between dark and funny moments that matters.

And also, the humour was a different style. You'd find him funny for some remarks he makes, but at the same time, there's still a certain seriousness, if that makes sense? He's no clown. The comedic effect is based on him being insane and having a really warped view because of that, but he never comes across as foolish or dumb. He doesn't crack jokes. Sometimes there's even a deeper truth in what he's saying. Also, his style of speech isn't too casual or bland. When we get to know more about his past in Elsweyr, he even turns out to be a bit of a tragic character. So there's much more to him compared to later comic relief characters who are just clownish, and most of all, much less complex.

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, Naemon did turn into a popsicle. I left the Duchess alone. I wonder, if you go through all three alliance questlines before you do Coldharbour, if everyone will be there, or if it will only display the people from your alliance. Could be quite the rogue's gallery if everyone did show up.

I never tried it, but I'd guess they'd all show up (Even if it wasn't intended from the beginning, since before One Tamriel you couldn't normally progress into other faction zones before ending the main quest - but still, why not? Technically, it should be possible because they all have their own location where they'd show up). Would be interesting to see it once, I guess.

metheglyn wrote: »

But if it was him all along, why did he protest and call out, "I'm not supposed to be the vessel!" Because he wanted his soul to go into his real body and not his soul-shriven one? So then that makes it less of a protest and more of an admonishment to a misbehaving soul. "Not me, you stupid soul! Go into the body in the box!"

Now that's the kind of humour I enjoy

metheglyn wrote: »

I always thought the soul-shriven were in their own body. The soul was yoinked out, but the body remained, and some semblance of self? (I'm really not sure what the "soul" is meant to represent in Elder Scrolls lore. It's clearly not the animating force, or even the essence of a person, since we go around Tamriel as perfectly functioning people without our souls. In fact, no one seems aware, outside a few Aylied ghosts here and there, that we don't have a soul.) Although, Cadwell's original body was dismembered and buried around Elsweyr, and yet he still had a whole body to himself in Coldharbour. But what is the point of making new bodies for soul-shriven? Seems wasteful. Just use their old ones and call it a day.

The process of creating a new body made of chaotic creatia does make sense. The Soulshriven don't need food or water, they need no rest, they can't even really die but will just form again. That's perfect for their purpose: being slaves to Molag Bal. They can just endlessly work (and suffer) for him, don't need anything, and if one dies, they will just reappear.

As for what the soul actually is... Well, it probably contains some part of an individual's power? I'm not sure though whether I should be concerned about it that much (except for that we're told we should try to reclaim it in the story).

Honestly, I'd even be a bit more concerned about my physical body. Where did that even end up? Why can't we try to find that? Maybe I want to keep my own bones on display at home? Or try the funny Mannimarco ritual to fully restore it and then swap over?

Although the Soulshriven body surely has advantages. No eating, no sleeping, and most of all, immortality. But maybe Mannimarco still wanted his old body back because it holds more power? Or it's about the cloning? It certainly has advantages to be split in two. If something happens to one body, the other one can still try to get the issue solved.

metheglyn wrote: »

Ahem, but back to the matter at hand: if that was soul-shriven Mannimarco on the slab, and he just wandered away into Coldharbour somewhere when we freed him, and then we went on to beat all those souls out of Molag Bal, was his soul one of the ones we freed? If so, why did it linger in Coldharbour? Meridia snatched our soul for us (and hopefully she got the correct one!) but what did happen to all the other souls? So maybe the Worm Cultists weren't pulling Mannimarco's soul from Coldharbour, they were pulling it from wherever it went. Free-range traveling soul.

Who knows. I have the feeling we're overthinking it once more

metheglyn wrote: »

However, the soul-shriven Mannimarco hypothesis works better for me than the "sudden nephew acolyte carrying out Mannimarco's extremely detailed plans in case of demise" hypothesis.

It honestly would be a nice revelation. It would also explain why we didn't get any background lore on Wormblood's life so far - because there is none. I fully hope for him taking off his mask and revealing that it was him all along now - but I'm not sure whether this hope might lead to disappointment...

metheglyn wrote: »

As for his body, I think Meridia has it now. Or maybe she threw it out because the box didn't fit with her decor.

Can I have it? Or maybe some random cultist that was still alive somewhere there just teleported it out again. Doesn't seem to be difficult, teleporting it in also only took a second, after all.

I'll reply to the rest later.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You know, I hadn't really thought about that aspect of the quest writing before--how the language itself has become more casual over time. I do think you're correct in that it has shifted. I wouldn't say every npc spoke in the exact same style, because a Bosmer would sound different from an Altmer and so forth, but there does seem to be less distinction between npc speech habits as well as a trend towards more casual speech.

Definitely. In the base game you would clearly notice some cultural differences and most of all differences in speech between, let's say, a farmer, a mercenary, a noble and a scholar. And subtly so, not in an exaggerated, clichéd way. Recently, I have the impression that the only thing that often marks scholars as scholars is the use of complicated (sometimes over-complicated) terms, but there's not actually a big difference in the speech style itself.

Although at times they still did it well, with a few characters - in particular with the companions. I find it really notable with Azandar and Zerith-var (at least in German, not sure how their original lines are). I think it's a part of why they are my favorite companions.

Azander and Zerith-var do have very well-defined speech patterns that fit their characters. To some extent, all the companions do, but with those two it does stand out rather more. Azander's very erudite, and Zerith-var's cadence speaks to an earlier time, not to mention that he's from a time before Khajiit commonly referred to themselves in third person. I would like it if more npcs got that kind of care in their dialogue and voiced lines.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The humor was perhaps a bit more subtle back then, maybe less broad, but there's always been that all-out goofy humor like the Jester's Festival (of which I'm not a fan).

I mean, the Jester's Festival is particularly about being silly, in a more or less frivolous way. So I'm fine with that. I can remember that in the first few years, it stood out because of that - because the rest of the content was more or less serious.

Yeah, I understand the Jester's Festival is meant to be goofy, and I'm not against its existence in the world; I just don't like it. Much like I've never liked Rigurt. I guess the joke with Rigurt is that everyone except for him knows he's stupid and inept, but that kind of thing just isn't for me.

Syldras wrote: »

There was something a little more light-hearted at times, of course. But it was a better balance, I guess? Between all tragic and serious stories, there were a few funnier moments. The overall tone was more grim, which fit the situation of Tamriel - with the Planemeld and the War. The jokes were short moments of light in that overall gloom. Not sure if some people might have disliked that, but considering the game's topic, I personally found the atmosphere fitting - appropriate, immersive.

I think it was a better balance back then. I wonder, though, if some of it is just fatigue with the retelling of the same basic plot. How many times has the world been threatened? How many times has that threat amounted to anything? After awhile, it's hard to take it seriously, and I wonder if any amount of npc angst over the situation would work, or whether our attitude would be more like: eh, it's no big deal; this kind of thing happens all the time; I'll get to it later.

Syldras wrote: »

Now, in contrast to that, almost everything seems to be a joke, either entirely, or you have at least a few jokes strewn in in every longer quest, or some silly quip in a situation that actually should feel serious. I, personally, didn't really feel the threat anymore in the latest story (and neither most inhabitants of Solstice, it seems). That doesn't help, for me at least, to get immersed in the story.

It's like instead of emotionally motivating us to go through the main quest through the actual feeling of threat and urgency, we're supposed to just bash the Worm Cult because we enjoy bashing baddies or something. Because "violence = fun"? Because "Being the good guy and bashing the ones marked as evil = self-aggrandizing (You're the awesome great hero! Virtuous! Correct! On the right side!) = fun"? I don't know. For me, it doesn't work, because being "the hero" is nothing I ever cared for. I don't enjoy this whole clear black/white or good/evil scheme with a clear awesome hero and the bad baddies being bad because they're the baddies. I'd rather be morally grey and have antagonists that are morally grey, nuance instead of clichés. Like in real life. In the end, this is probably the big factor we'll always return to in this thread.

Part of the reason it doesn't work for me is what you've stated (evil for evil's sake isn't very interesting to me) and part of it is that I can't take the Worm Cult seriously. I've already dealt with them and, so far, they've only stumbled into any success (if you call putting Mannimarco's soul in the wrong vessel success). If they were staging any kind of actually threatening comeback, they shouldn't have shown their hand so soon with the soul reapers. They shouldn't have let us find their warehouse and plans. They shouldn't have basically declared war before they had their troops ready. Merric didn't die because they had superior tactics or strategy; he died because he hit a thing he wasn't expecting to explode on him. And, if we take Gabrielle's word for it, they can't even claim credit for kidnapping Vanny. So maybe they're good at portalling a sarcophagus around between realms and onto an island with magic that supposedly makes portals tricky, but that's about all they can do.

Syldras wrote: »

I have a feeling that there might also be a shift in sentiment with ESO, from the stories and emotional reactions to these stories being seen as the player's motivation to progress, to... "It's fun to kill the baddies".

I wonder how much of that is an actual sentiment in ESO, and how much it was just an off-hand line spoken without much thought in the article. Whoever said it probably does find it fun to just kill a bad guy because he's a bad guy, and that might have been the motivation for bringing back the Worm Cult, but it's not meant to be taken as "this is how we do things now." I mean, the current storyline definitely shows that sentiment, but I hope it's not an overall shift in storytelling.

Syldras wrote: »

Of course, for people who don't roleplay at all but just hunt for achievements or scores or the like in ESO, this probably doesn't matter. I think I saw a thread a few days ago about whether having an idea about the character we're playing here is important to people or not. There were people for whom their character is nothing more than a random item they move through the game to do the fighting. And that's fine. I'm not going to tell anyone how to play their game. I'm just saying that with that view of the game, "The fighting is fun" is probably motivation enough - but as soon as someone plays their avatar as an actual roleplay character, the narration becomes important. Atmosphere and mood become important. A motivation for that character to go through the story is needed. "Killing the baddies is fun" alone, I think, doesn't achieve that for many people, because that would not be most of our characters' motivation or way or thinking, within the world they live in.

The replies in that thread were interesting to me because they varied so widely. On the one hand, you have people who just make a character of the class they want and go; on the other hand, you have someone who spends an impressive amount of time researching and creating backstory for every character. How does one create a game that fits not just both those ends of the spectrum, but everyone in between? I guess one doesn't, really.

I do want them to invest more in the storytelling, with better, more nuanced stories, interesting and engaging npcs, and compelling plot points that actually make me invested in the outcome. I keep hoping they will.

Syldras wrote: »

But actually we were at the topic of humour I wanted to add that Cadwell was certainly a bit of a comedic character in the base game main quest. But as he was accompanying us through a generally gloomy story, he served as a small contrast. If everything had been more or less funny, not only would his lines probably not have had the effect they had, but it might have felt too much in total. It's the contrast between dark and funny moments that matters.

And also, the humour was a different style. You'd find him funny for some remarks he makes, but at the same time, there's still a certain seriousness, if that makes sense? He's no clown. The comedic effect is based on him being insane and having a really warped view because of that, but he never comes across as foolish or dumb. He doesn't crack jokes. Sometimes there's even a deeper truth in what he's saying. Also, his style of speech isn't too casual or bland. When we get to know more about his past in Elsweyr, he even turns out to be a bit of a tragic character. So there's much more to him compared to later comic relief characters who are just clownish, and most of all, much less complex.

The humor of Cadwell works for me because Cadwell himself isn't trying to be funny. He speaks to his own reality, and the contrast between that and what we see as reality is where the humor lies. Plus he's very much a heroic knight type, and loves a good quest, and just seems thrilled to be on an adventure, even if we are overlooking the obvious threat (the planar vortex) while focusing on the great shackle. When he says "great job!" he's being sincere, and when he follows it up with, "now you just have to take care of the vortex," he's simply stating the obvious, and it's merely a funny bonus that it makes the Great Mage look a little silly in the moment.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, Naemon did turn into a popsicle. I left the Duchess alone. I wonder, if you go through all three alliance questlines before you do Coldharbour, if everyone will be there, or if it will only display the people from your alliance. Could be quite the rogue's gallery if everyone did show up.

I never tried it, but I'd guess they'd all show up (Even if it wasn't intended from the beginning, since before One Tamriel you couldn't normally progress into other faction zones before ending the main quest - but still, why not? Technically, it should be possible because they all have their own location where they'd show up). Would be interesting to see it once, I guess.

I'm contemplating trying this on a character I have who is almost done with Ebonheart Pact and about ready to get to the part of the main quest where she goes to Coldharbour. But then I'm not sure I want to, because it sort of messes up her arc. So, maybe not.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I always thought the soul-shriven were in their own body. The soul was yoinked out, but the body remained, and some semblance of self? (I'm really not sure what the "soul" is meant to represent in Elder Scrolls lore. It's clearly not the animating force, or even the essence of a person, since we go around Tamriel as perfectly functioning people without our souls. In fact, no one seems aware, outside a few Aylied ghosts here and there, that we don't have a soul.) Although, Cadwell's original body was dismembered and buried around Elsweyr, and yet he still had a whole body to himself in Coldharbour. But what is the point of making new bodies for soul-shriven? Seems wasteful. Just use their old ones and call it a day.

The process of creating a new body made of chaotic creatia does make sense. The Soulshriven don't need food or water, they need no rest, they can't even really die but will just form again. That's perfect for their purpose: being slaves to Molag Bal. They can just endlessly work (and suffer) for him, don't need anything, and if one dies, they will just reappear.

As for what the soul actually is... Well, it probably contains some part of an individual's power? I'm not sure though whether I should be concerned about it that much (except for that we're told we should try to reclaim it in the story).

Honestly, I'd even be a bit more concerned about my physical body. Where did that even end up? Why can't we try to find that? Maybe I want to keep my own bones on display at home? Or try the funny Mannimarco ritual to fully restore it and then swap over?

Although the Soulshriven body surely has advantages. No eating, no sleeping, and most of all, immortality. But maybe Mannimarco still wanted his old body back because it holds more power? Or it's about the cloning? It certainly has advantages to be split in two. If something happens to one body, the other one can still try to get the issue solved.

Ok, but...soul-shriven efficiency aside...if our soul is gone, and our body with our brain is tossed away on a heap somewhere, how are we even ourselves once a body is created for us out of chaotic creatia? Anything that made us who we were (soul and mind) are no longer with us. How are we anything at all at that point? Forget being a vestige of our former selves: we're not even that much.

Oh well, it's all nonsense anyway, driven by this strange need in Elder Scrolls games for the player character to start out as a nothing/nobody/outsider who belongs nowhere and to no one. The forever stranger and eternal outlander.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ahem, but back to the matter at hand: if that was soul-shriven Mannimarco on the slab, and he just wandered away into Coldharbour somewhere when we freed him, and then we went on to beat all those souls out of Molag Bal, was his soul one of the ones we freed? If so, why did it linger in Coldharbour? Meridia snatched our soul for us (and hopefully she got the correct one!) but what did happen to all the other souls? So maybe the Worm Cultists weren't pulling Mannimarco's soul from Coldharbour, they were pulling it from wherever it went. Free-range traveling soul.

Who knows. I have the feeling we're overthinking it once more

Well...maybe.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

However, the soul-shriven Mannimarco hypothesis works better for me than the "sudden nephew acolyte carrying out Mannimarco's extremely detailed plans in case of demise" hypothesis.

It honestly would be a nice revelation. It would also explain why we didn't get any background lore on Wormblood's life so far - because there is none. I fully hope for him taking off his mask and revealing that it was him all along now - but I'm not sure whether this hope might lead to disappointment...

Unfortunately, disappointment is likely. I think we had already come to the conclusion that Wormblood is nothing more than a throwaway character we spent way too much time speculating about.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As for his body, I think Meridia has it now. Or maybe she threw it out because the box didn't fit with her decor.

Can I have it? Or maybe some random cultist that was still alive somewhere there just teleported it out again. Doesn't seem to be difficult, teleporting it in also only took a second, after all.

Sure, if you want it, it's all yours. Can't be worse than the cult keeping it. Or some rando coming across it.

Syldras wrote: »

So, the next and final part:

metheglyn wrote: »

You know, if you're into searching crates and barrels in every dungeon/plane of oblivion/trip back to the past (and I am!) you will find produce and other foodstuffs just sitting around, and I often wonder: who put these bananas here? how are they still good?

Who keeps raw fish in some random wardrobe? Or yeast in a nightstand?

I don't know? I can't recall finding those items in those particular spots. I think the food items are confined to barrels and crates. But if you did find fish in a wardrobe or yeast in a nightstand, it's got to be down to those idiot cultists, right? They have no organizational skills or cataloguing systems!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But I take them, because I loot everything. Another find for my deep pockets! (I think that's a Zerith-var line, except he says 'your' and not 'my'.) Anyway, I found some real food in Mannimarco's castle. And I took it.

It's a strange castle, isn't it? It doesn't really look like anyone could actually live there. Where did Mannimarco even sleep? I hope his new castle, if he has one, looks better.

It's just supposed to be creepy. Dark and gloomy. Scary. You know, a fitting abode for the edge lord to end all edge lords.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Right, right. Must think of the prestige! What would you suggest, then?

Well, considering I'm still rather young for a Telvanni, I hope there are still a few centuries left until I need to consider such things. You usually don't raise statues for living people, do you?

Me? No. I don't raise statues of anyone at all. But I feel sure Telvanni would put up statues of themselves whenever they felt inspired to do so. Are you telling me they wouldn't?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I know there are dialogue differences/different conversations. I think, if you sacrificed someone other than the prophet, he's at loose ends and has no idea what to do with himself (since he pretty much expected to be dead at that point).

He also seems to be the canon choice for the sacrifice. The others all return in some later story, sacrificed or not, while he doesn't.

He also shows up at the end of the Wrothgar questline, in ghost form, to warn you about the upcoming troubles. If you don't sacrifice him, I wonder how that goes?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It is a nice touch, and something they don't seem to do as much of these days. It also seemed more meaningful back then, because I had no idea the choice wasn't going to stick, as it were.

I have the impression that there were generally more choices. Like during the main quest, once you reach Coldharbour, you can often choose whom to side with in the different side quests, which influences which characters will end up in the Hollow City. And when you progress the main quest, you can choose one character from one of these different factions to accompany you on a quest. Of course, they all have unique dialogue for that occasion.

And yes, character deaths felt much more meaningful back then. Now it's almost shocking if someone does not return.

Yes, and that's unfortunate, really.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I remember doing both of those things--abandoning a quest because I needed to pick up another one, and doing a quest just to clear it out, even if I wasn't going to follow it further. It wasn't ideal, no.

I don't know why, but I somehow dislike abandoning quests. But it does happen, of course, especially when doing some new zone for the first time. I'd usually accidentally pick up the trial quest. That would actually also call for a different quest marker color, indicating that this quest is group content. So people don't have to clutter their log with that and could just wait with picking it up until they know they have time and interest to group with people now (and people without interest in group content at all could just ignore it altogether).

I don't like abandoning them either, but it happens. On the point of the trial quest in new zones: I pick those up and take the handy travel to the trial, and turn in the quest because it's only a breadcrumb quest, and the actual quest for the trial is a separate thing inside the trial. That way the breadcrumb quest is gone off the map and not teasing me with its presence, making me think I somehow missed a side quest.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's a good point. I wonder how often truly new players feel compelled to travel hither and yon, or if they are more invested in their alliance storyline. When I first started playing, my husband (who started when the game was first released) was my guide, so anything I didn't understand he could explain to me (like the first time I got a crafting survey). Had I not had him to hand, I doubt I would have strayed much from the alliance storyline coupled with the main quest.

I'm, personally, very systematic when it comes to exploring places (in game and in real life... I've basically catalogued whole cemeteries for their art or grave decorations more than once - as a pastime), but I think most players aren't that meticulous but just wander to what ever looks interesting (which is just as fine, and I do that on some side characters - but on my main, I don't want to miss anything on the map).

I think with treasure maps and surveys cluttering people's inventories, they might feel pushed to travel to other locations (especially if they want to get rid of treasure maps fast since you can only hold 1 each - which means if you find it again, it'd be wasted). Event quests require you to travel to other zones sometimes now, prologues do. I think for people who haven't even finished the basegame yet, but who actually want to play the whole storyline in its correct order, it's ruining the sense of wonder - the question how it might look elsewhere on the continent.

Generally I have the feeling that while we're told that we can play and travel in any order, the stories do very much assume a certain order. And I don't only mean cases where one dlc or chapter logically bases on another one in terms of its narration, but things as simple as, well, some quests that were added later seem to rely on the fact that you have already cleared all base game locations before. One minor example appears during every Jesters Festival: Interacting with festival npcs, including Bosmer and Khajiit professors, at the College of Aldmeri Propriety on Auridon, which only makes sense if you have completed the base game quest there. Otherwise it's a rather strange experience.

I'm not as structured as you when it comes to a new zone, but I do like to discover everything the first time through. On alternate characters, I find myself gravitating towards playing in the original release order even when I think I'm going to diverge from the usual, simply because it makes more sense to me to do that. This isn't to say I never play content "out of order" or skip around, because I do, but the urge to play in order is very strong.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, I understand the Jester's Festival is meant to be goofy, and I'm not against its existence in the world; I just don't like it. Much like I've never liked Rigurt. I guess the joke with Rigurt is that everyone except for him knows he's stupid and inept, but that kind of thing just isn't for me.

Rigurt is also a character who seems to have gotten dumber over the years. Although from what I remember the funny thing about the quest where he first showed up wasn't even that much his behavior alone, but the whole situation, including the reaction of the Dunmer who got the Nord gifts. It was obvious that the cultural differences left most people involved clueless somehow, and it was fun to see how they tried to make something out of that situation nonetheless. Also, it served the purpose well to show the differences between Tamriel's cultures, and specifically in this case what problems might ensue because of that, now that they were supposed to be allies fighting the War together.

It's true that in his first two appearances (Mournhold and Windhelm) he's not quite an idiot, and the interactions in Mournhold do have the cultural differences point to them, and if they had left him at that, I probably wouldn't hate him. But no. They brought him back over and over and over again. Well, plenty of people do like him, so that would be why.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think it was a better balance back then. I wonder, though, if some of it is just fatigue with the retelling of the same basic plot. How many times has the world been threatened? How many times has that threat amounted to anything? After awhile, it's hard to take it seriously, and I wonder if any amount of npc angst over the situation would work, or whether our attitude would be more like: eh, it's no big deal; this kind of thing happens all the time; I'll get to it later.

I think it would be possible to evoke emotions through specific fates - cases where the big threat has changed something in a character's life. I think a personal perspective usually works well for that.

In case of Solstice, for one, I'd like to have seen the islanders presented as actually being from a remote location and therefore mostly uninformed about what was going on on the mainland. And in that situation I'd find it believable if the appearance of that huge Wall would have actually caused a panic among the people. Or any emotional reaction, really. We already discussed how the Argonians might have made sense of this all - if they'd actually been isolated tribes living in the jungle of a far away island.

And then there's that Stone Nest Argonian we met in Sunport - but instead of showing us fear or despair about being cut off from his village, his whole family and friends or a loved one on the other side of the Wall, all we got was some positive "Oh, I bet everyone's fine over there". That was a missed opportunity to bing emotion into the situation, from my point of view. Generally, everything seems so positive this time, it's strange if we're supposed to believe in a threat we urgently have to deal with.

But yes, having world-ending threats all the time also seems... not quite convincing. Stories could also focus on other aspects. Solving some local problem might not make us the "great hero" - but do we need that, all the time, in every single story?

Strictly speaking, I never need to be the hero. I just want to be part of the world and invested in its concerns. I understand that would lead me to act heroically quite often, but not out of a sense of, "I'm the hero!" More like, "I want this world to survive, and if I can do something about it, I will." But even then, my various characters might not put the same effort into saving every part of Tamriel. So I suppose that's where the "this will affect the whole world!" attitude comes in. It would be nice, though, to travel to a place my character had no previous affinity for, and discover a reason for helping out/saving the place through interactions with the people who do live there and want it saved. With Solstice, we're there to save it; that's why we showed up. That's fine for the type of story they're telling here, but I'd like a less obvious set-up in future.

And yes, we've discussed the odd disinterest the populace of Solstice seems to have about the events. It doesn't help that most of the npcs don't have any idle chatter or proximity lines, making them seem even less like they exist in the world.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Part of the reason it doesn't work for me is what you've stated (evil for evil's sake isn't very interesting to me) and part of it is that I can't take the Worm Cult seriously. I've already dealt with them and, so far, they've only stumbled into any success (if you call putting Mannimarco's soul in the wrong vessel success). If they were staging any kind of actually threatening comeback, they shouldn't have shown their hand so soon with the soul reapers. They shouldn't have let us find their warehouse and plans. They shouldn't have basically declared war before they had their troops ready.

For idiot cultists, they have achieved a lot

They've got plot-success.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Merric didn't die because they had superior tactics or strategy; he died because he hit a thing he wasn't expecting to explode on him.

Maybe that was the lesson of the day: Kids, don't hit random things with a stick.

Lol!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And, if we take Gabrielle's word for it, they can't even claim credit for kidnapping Vanny.

I think that's one thing they actually succeeded in.

Maybe. Maybe not. We'll see how Vanny tells the story in the end. At least, I hope we will.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So maybe they're good at portalling a sarcophagus around between realms and onto an island with magic that supposedly makes portals tricky, but that's about all they can do.

Didn't it arrive aboard a ship of Admiral Wormblood's Worm Cult fleet? Where ever they even have it from.

I don't think we know how they got it there. It's just there, and we find it, and that's that. Then later they portal it to the Colored Rooms and leave it behind.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The replies in that thread were interesting to me because they varied so widely. On the one hand, you have people who just make a character of the class they want and go; on the other hand, you have someone who spends an impressive amount of time researching and creating backstory for every character. How does one create a game that fits not just both those ends of the spectrum, but everyone in between? I guess one doesn't, really.

Someone not interested in roleplay and lore can just skip those parts. Some people already do - don't read most dialogues, just run through places, and it seems to work. The other way round - it doesn't work so well. If it's supposed to be a roleplaying game, roleplaying aspects like lore and narration need to be part of the focus. No matter if every single player cares for them or not.

Yes, I know people can (and do) just click through dialogue and quest text. I wasn't suggesting they start catering to that subset of players; mostly just musing that there's no game that will completely satisfy such a wide spectrum of players.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ok, but...soul-shriven efficiency aside...if our soul is gone, and our body with our brain is tossed away on a heap somewhere, how are we even ourselves once a body is created for us out of chaotic creatia? Anything that made us who we were (soul and mind) are no longer with us. How are we anything at all at that point? Forget being a vestige of our former selves: we're not even that much.

We're basically a copy made of daedric matter. Probably the brain was copied, too - maybe not perfectly, so who knows that personality changes it might have caused, but it might have been able to preserve at least most of the original character and memories. It would actually be interesting to get deeper into these aspects in game (lost or false memories caused by the process, or some dark changes to one's character that one notices and isn't quite happy about) - but I see that ESO might not be the right place for psychological drama and philosophy of this kind. Or maybe we'd get some "Soulshriven Mannimarco wanted his real body back because of the memories, knowledge and power linked to that physical body (or brain) that his chaotic creatia body has not because they were lost during the copying process" at most - but I guess also that would already be a bit too much.

How do you copy a brain, though? And why? If all you want is shuffling servants, why bother trying to recreate the original brain?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh well, it's all nonsense anyway, driven by this strange need in Elder Scrolls games for the player character to start out as a nothing/nobody/outsider who belongs nowhere and to no one. The forever stranger and eternal outlander.

In this case it mostly feels to me like an explanation for why our character can just respawn, a problem that did not exist in the singleplayer games.

I'd have preferred if they hadn't tried to wrangle a lore reason our characters could respawn in an MMO, and just left that to the "game mechanics" kind of thing we all have to accept. (Like how we carry so much stuff in our bags.) Because, you know, our ability to respawn never comes up at any other time, and it isn't even really explained well at all in game. For the longest time I didn't even know we were meant to be made of creatia; I thought we were in our original body just without our soul. I didn't even learn about any of it in game--it wasn't until I saw the idea mentioned on the forums here that I looked into it more. I didn't even see the little cinematic of us being dragged up to Mannimarco so he could kill us and take our soul until I skipped the tutorial after character creation and ended up accessing the main quest via the hooded figure. The first character I ever made, I entered the game in a cell in Coldharbour, with Lyris telling me I was dead and we were going to escape. No cinematic/cutscene--just straight into the action.

All of that is to say: I reject the idea that my characters are made of oblivion goo.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Sure, if you want it, it's all yours. Can't be worse than the cult keeping it. Or some rando coming across it.

That would be wonderful! First, I'd gaze at it for days and write poetry about it. A nice elegy. Or maybe a whole epic poem. And after that, I'd either raise it or... you know... the travelling circus thing

Let me know if you get that circus going! Last circus I visited was very disappointing, so I'm sure yours will be better.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's just supposed to be creepy. Dark and gloomy. Scary. You know, a fitting abode for the edge lord to end all edge lords.

But is he an edgelord? He's supposed to be a sophisticated and well-spoken diplomat. He writes poetry. He's supposed to have a certain intellect. I'd just wish his abode would also reflect that. Honestly, his most pleasing dwelling so far, from an aesthetic perspective, was his sarcophagus. And even that was improvable. It disappoints me a bit. He could be a Byronic hero type - it would function really well for his character.

Based on what we see of him in game? Totally an edge lord. We've seen examples in game of the different uses for necromancy, and they aren't all "need me some thralls for evil plans!" Mannimarco's big on skulls, grim decor, and dark plans. Classic edge lord.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He also shows up at the end of the Wrothgar questline, in ghost form, to warn you about the upcoming troubles. If you don't sacrifice him, I wonder how that goes?

I honestly can't remember that. Is he supposed to be a spirit? Or could he also be a projection of his living form? Maybe it's kept ambiguous so he could be either?

He was definitely a spirit. He told me he was giving me a warning before moving on, or something (was a very long time ago). But I guess, if you didn't sacrifice him, you might just assume it was yet another prophet projection like all the times he summoned you to the Harbourage.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't like abandoning them either, but it happens. On the point of the trial quest in new zones: I pick those up and take the handy travel to the trial, and turn in the quest because it's only a breadcrumb quest, and the actual quest for the trial is a separate thing inside the trial. That way the breadcrumb quest is gone off the map and not teasing me with its presence, making me think I somehow missed a side quest.

I usually don't do that because I think that some time in the future I might decide to actually do those quests once. It's very unlikely, of course, but I can't rule out 100% that I might, what do I know, maybe befriend someone who runs trials with other people sometimes, and then I might consider joining in a few times. Maybe. Possibly not.

Yeah, I can see that. But since I know I'm never going to do a trial, I'd just as soon get that quest off the landscape and out of my log.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's true that in his first two appearances (Mournhold and Windhelm) he's not quite an idiot, and the interactions in Mournhold do have the cultural differences point to them, and if they had left him at that, I probably wouldn't hate him. But no. They brought him back over and over and over again. Well, plenty of people do like him, so that would be why.

And now we also have his sister.

His sister I didn't find so bad--she seemed to have some manner of intelligence or at least sense. But the way they wrote her to use all the nonsense words that Rigurt uses kind of got on my nerves. I get it--the whole family is wacky! But still, could have done without that particular eccentricity repeated. Does make me wonder about the schools in Skyrim.

Why are Nords all portrayed to be the least sharp tools in the shed, anyway? Did Shalidor and Ulfsild use up all the intelligence for the entire race? So many Nords we come across are just loud drunks. Even the ones on Solstice didn't seem any too bright, though they were at least a little less caricature driven. I understand cultural norms exist, and all that, but I feel what we mostly get are cultural stereotypes.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Strictly speaking, I never need to be the hero. I just want to be part of the world and invested in its concerns. I understand that would lead me to act heroically quite often, but not out of a sense of, "I'm the hero!" More like, "I want this world to survive, and if I can do something about it, I will." But even then, my various characters might not put the same effort into saving every part of Tamriel. So I suppose that's where the "this will affect the whole world!" attitude comes in.

I mean, in a way it's natural that not all characters would be interested in all kinds of interactions. I don't see a big difference to certain factions there. Not every character suits the Dark Brotherhood or the Thieves Guild either. Still, those don't get changed in writing just to appeal to more people. I basically see it as a possibility: If you're interested, do it - if it doesn't fit the character, well, then it doesn't fit. No matter if it's helping out some orcs in Wrothgar or joining some murder cult.

I agree that all stories don't have to appeal to all characters. It's why my alternate characters don't do everything--only the regions that fit with them. (As much as I love Vvardenfell and the Morrowind chapter, one of my Altmer characters has not gone and will not go to Vvardenfell because the area doesn't appeal to her.) But the motivations they've given us in-game to go to these places and help out rarely stray from, "or else the whole word ends!" and I don't like that coming up so often.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It would be nice, though, to travel to a place my character had no previous affinity for, and discover a reason for helping out/saving the place through interactions with the people who do live there and want it saved. With Solstice, we're there to save it; that's why we showed up. That's fine for the type of story they're telling here, but I'd like a less obvious set-up in future.

I think one of the biggest factors for a story to succeed is to get the reader/watcher/player emotionally engaged somehow. Well, of course there are texts that fascinate through interesting thought concepts or just the beauty of their language, but I think for fantasy stories like this one, emotion is a key factor. Or curiosity: the want to explore the location and the world, and to learn how the story continues. It that works well, it's, at least to me, not that important whether I save humans, elves or argonians in the story. And if it doesn't work out, it won't fascinate me, no matter if the story takes place at my favorite location.

A nice location alone doesn't work. Nostalgia as a factor alone doesn't work. It might attract people to have a look, but if they're not happy with the writing quality, they'll leave again. It showed: There are lots of Dunmer fans, but Necrom wasn't quite such a success as the Morrowind chapter. Of course I don't know for sure, but I'd also think a new Skyrim chapter would not be as well-received as Greymoor if the writing is not on at least that level.

I think we're pretty much in agreement on this. I was thinking about the Murkmire DLC, and how that didn't have any huge Tamriel shattering consequences to it. We get drawn in by someone who wants to return historical relics to their rightful owners and as we travel through the area we learn more about the inhabitants, their culture, and the history of the zone. The "villain" of the story is well-written and believable, and the whole thing feels to me like we aren't charging in to be the hero, we just get drawn in more naturally by the story.

I know ZOS doesn't usually go in and create companion reactions for past zones, but I think it would be pretty amazing if they did that for Sharp in Murkmire. They did give Zerith-var reactions to certain places in Elsweyr, which is really cool, but I haven't heard of that being the case for any other companions.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And yes, we've discussed the odd disinterest the populace of Solstice seems to have about the events. It doesn't help that most of the npcs don't have any idle chatter or proximity lines, making them seem even less like they exist in the world.

Still wondering whether it might be a bug? There seem to be a thing going on with sound files, lately. The sound effect if you sell an item has also disappeared - weeks ago.

It's possible. Also, I had no idea how much I was going to miss that item selling sound effect. Every time I sell something, it feels strange, like we're all just pantomiming our actions.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol!

You're laughing now, but we should probably call ourselves lucky that we didn't get a helpful lesson presented at the end of the questline: "Today I learned..."

We kind of did, didn't we? I thought someone did say, "He shouldn't have charged in without knowing what would happen." Maybe even Vanny said it. Or maybe it was just in my head.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe. Maybe not. We'll see how Vanny tells the story in the end. At least, I hope we will.

I hope we'll even get enough dialogue with him once he's free. Well, if we free him.

The dungeon dlc will be released in 4 days. I guess the Q4 chapter will hit the PTS soon after? Since I think the actual Wall event might start in about 2 months (Mid-October would fit if they want to have it done before the Witches Festival starts - or maybe even a bit earlier? Witches Fest usually started between October 20 and October 26).

I don't pay much attention to the PTS cycle, so don't know when it usually starts for upcoming content. I wonder if they'll have the Wall event running concurrently with another event. I don't mind if they do, but I think they try to avoid double events in general.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't think we know how they got it there. It's just there, and we find it, and that's that.

It's inside a mine. On some kind of floating construction. Which is a little strange considering the weight of the sarcophagus - unless it's made of pumice, of course, since pumice is so lightweight it floats on water It would be a rather unusual material for a sarcophagus, though. A swimming sarcophagus. That would make an interesting burial ritual!

We did wonder how they got it inside the mine. I mentioned it doesn't make much sense, with the way the river is running, that they used a barge to get it there, because that meant they'd have to have brought it in from the eastern side. If they had it on the eastern side, where we couldn't get at it, why would they bring it to an easily infiltrated cave on the western side where we could inspect it? Seems like their intended ritual would have gone over better on the eastern side, with no chance of us interrupting, and closer to their great mysterious power source that is probably Mor Naril. I know they had to be on the western side to find the gift of death and all that, but there really was no reason to bring the sarcophagus over.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

How do you copy a brain, though?

How do daedra copy anything? They could probably just magically clone the whole body, including its components, I guess. Just that they'd use the material of their plane for creation, instead of... whatever the people on Nirn are made of (Normally I'd say they're probably carbon-based, but do we know?).

Half-meat, half-magicka?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And why? If all you want is shuffling servants, why bother trying to recreate the original brain?

By accessing their brain and their memories, you could tailor your torture to what hurts them most.

It still sounds like a rather complicated process just for that purpose, I know. Then again, Molag Bal probably doesn't even have to lift a finger for it since his servants do all the work (Or maybe it's even automatized somehow?), so why not?

That might make more sense if the soul-shriven were being tortured more often. Mostly they're just standing around and staring at things as if they have no brain. Or hanging out in whatever decrepit village or camp, listening to Cadwell sing tunes. So, yeah, I'm sticking with my initial assessment of inefficient use of mortals.

However they make the soul-shriven, though, we did see something of that idea you mentioned of a copy of a brain not containing everything and there being some missing memories and such: in Elsweyr with Cadwell. He doesn't recall everything he did in life. Whether that's due to an imperfect copy of a brain, or just repressed memories, or maybe even the trauma of death causing things to be lost, I'm not sure.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Let me know if you get that circus going! Last circus I visited was very disappointing, so I'm sure yours will be better.

I need to warn you, though, just in case: It will be rather unsafe, even more unsafe than Sanguines "debaucheries" where people freely eat cheese and dance!

I'll take precautions.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Based on what we see of him in game? Totally an edge lord. We've seen examples in game of the different uses for necromancy, and they aren't all "need me some thralls for evil plans!" Mannimarco's big on skulls, grim decor, and dark plans. Classic edge lord.

What we see in Coldharbour doesn't really fit the character he's supposed to be according to background lore, does it? I'm all fine with him being powerhungry and "evil" and a necromancer, of course, but I'd loved a more nuanced and mature take on that. A place can look dark without a single skull - and skulls alone might not make a place look dark at all, just cluttered. If I see the home of a sophisticated Altmer necromancer, a diplomat, possibly a noble, I don't want it to remind me of the room of a child trying to be edgy. It also depends on the location, of course - if a necromancer would choose to reside in a tomb, barrow, ossuary or the like, to have enough material available for experiments, then it would be natural that there are corpses or bones. But that's since it's part of what the place had been before the necromancer moved in. Then again... it's probably also a question of cultural traditions. Bone decorations did exist in real life. Although usually in somehow burial-related locations. A friend just recently visited Sedlec, and it's quite remarkable. But it's not edgy, because it's just part of the traditions and sentiments of that time. It was never meant to shock.

In Mannimarco's defense, I doubt he had much input on the Coldharbour castle design and decor. I think it looks that way because that's what things in Coldharbour look like. And I think Molag Bal would definitely go in for the shock value of such things, so maybe he's the one who is actually the ultimate edge lord. Add that to his list of titles.

It would be interesting to see what Mannimarco's house/den/lair would look like if he had full control over setting it up. I'm guessing it would still have the edge lord feel to it, though. He did want to take over Molag Bal's position, after all, so that probably included all the edginess.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

His sister I didn't find so bad--she seemed to have some manner of intelligence or at least sense. But the way they wrote her to use all the nonsense words that Rigurt uses kind of got on my nerves. I get it--the whole family is wacky! But still, could have done without that particular eccentricity repeated. Does make me wonder about the schools in Skyrim.

Makes me wonder about their social background. We learned in some of the early Rigurt quests that the king sends him to remote places more or less to get rid of him. But why does he need to employ him at all? He's the king, could he just not choose, well, not to? Of course we could assume it's based on some kind of trade, some kind of favor; maybe Rigurt's parents helped the king out with something important (assuming they're less dense than their offspring), so in exchange he promised to hire their son. But then, it doesn't really make much sense that he'd also hire Rigurt's sister (who might be less dumb, but still... maybe not the best choice for that role) if he already has enough of Rigurt to that extent that he's hoping to get rid of him somehow. Or maybe the writers couldn't really remember the reasoning behind Rigurt becoming a "cultural embassador" anymore, since it only came up in the earliest quests a decade ago...?

I always got the impression the king was sending Rigurt to far-flung places in the guise of cultural ambassador because Rigurt was causing more trouble than he was worth at home in Windhelm. You know, upsetting important people, or bothering the king with endless chatter: that kind of thing. Basically, making him someone else's problem.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Why are Nords all portrayed to be the least sharp tools in the shed, anyway? Did Shalidor and Ulfsild use up all the intelligence for the entire race? So many Nords we come across are just loud drunks. Even the ones on Solstice didn't seem any too bright, though they were at least a little less caricature driven. I understand cultural norms exist, and all that, but I feel what we mostly get are cultural stereotypes.

Yes, they do sometimes stereotype too much and I notice it most often with Nords, too. I think it might be the general lack of subtlety that we already discussed in this thread a few times. Or maybe it's also too incomplex, and stands out most with the Nords because of the type of "typical character traits" they assigned to them are rather notable. Characterizing a people mostly by "They like to drink and be merry" will have a bigger influence on how they're perceived than, let's say, the Redguards' stance on necromancy. Because the latter will only be noticed in specific situations. Also, a stance on necromancy, or a specific religious belief, will not change the overall perception of a population that much - it can be applied to scholars and peasants alike, who will include that belief into their lives their own specific way. But if you say everyone loves to drink? That affects the overall behaviour and impression of those folks much more.

Yeah, between the "mighty warriors" and the "like to drink and have fun" traits, they seem to lean rather heavily on the latter. Maybe because it's harder to showcase strength of arms among npcs, since it's always the player character doing all the fighting. I just completed the Geirmund's Hall quests the other day, and it's yet more drinking and partying Nords, and then when a problem comes up (because drunken bards thought they could soothe giants) I'm the one who has to handle it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I know ZOS doesn't usually go in and create companion reactions for past zones, but I think it would be pretty amazing if they did that for Sharp in Murkmire. They did give Zerith-var reactions to certain places in Elsweyr, which is really cool, but I haven't heard of that being the case for any other companions.

I believe there are more such situations, but only a few for each companion (or the newer ones, at least; I'm not sure whether they've already thought of that when creating Bastian and Mirri); and I'm sure I've personally come across none of them since I usually only have companions unlocked on my main who has already finished all earlier stories. Generally I do appreciate it, though - the more reactions companions have towards the world that surrounds them, the better. It helps with immersion, it makes them feel a little bit more realistic. And maybe one day I'll get to see them, too... At least my 2nd Dunmer has Azandar now, and he's just beginning his journey (well, he finished the base game main quest and the Fighters Guild questline, but except for that - not much yet).

Yes, it's on my alternate characters that I get to see these extra comments. My main has already done everything already, so there's no going back to Elsweyr with Zarith-var (or anywhere with anyone else, either) to see how it plays out.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's possible. Also, I had no idea how much I was going to miss that item selling sound effect. Every time I sell something, it feels strange, like we're all just pantomiming our actions.

It was an auditory confirmation that the game registered me hitting the button and the sale took place. It helped, especially when it was laggy and sometimes the command would not go through. I hope they'll fix it, but it's going on for a whole while now, right? It's strange how that error could suddenly occur.

As for the silent Solstice npcs, I'm probably going to open a thread about that later. There's a bug report subforum, correct?

There is, yes.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

We kind of did, didn't we? I thought someone did say, "He shouldn't have charged in without knowing what would happen." Maybe even Vanny said it. Or maybe it was just in my head.

Saying that it might not have been the wisest decision is one thing (because that might actually be something a character observing the situation would think) - how it's presented to us is another.

It's really about the style how a "lesson" gets presented. I noticed during the base game main quest that there are indeed some moments where for example the Prophet shares some "wise" messages. About the power of loyalty and friendship, or about the meaning of honour. But somehow it was okay, the style was different to the "Today I learned..." messages we somehow get as quest conclusions now. I guess (at least in German) they weren't worded that bluntly back then? Sometimes they even had a slightly poetic feel to them. That makes a huge difference on whether I find "lecturing" bearable or not.

I'm not seeing the distinction between someone saying Merric shouldn't have hit the soul reaper without really knowing what it was and the way any of the Solstice quests ended. As far as I recall, no one came out and directly said, to me, the moral of the story. I'm not denying the quests had a "moral of the story" tone to them, but it didn't strike me as being quite as condescending as it did you.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't pay much attention to the PTS cycle, so don't know when it usually starts for upcoming content. I wonder if they'll have the Wall event running concurrently with another event. I don't mind if they do, but I think they try to avoid double events in general.

I think it's unlikely they will overlap. How long might the Wall event take? One week, two? Two would seem rather long...

If I'm understanding correctly, it takes as long as the server-wide effort makes it take. That is, more people participating and completing the quests, the quicker it finishes. I really don't know how long they expect it to take.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

We did wonder how they got it inside the mine. I mentioned it doesn't make much sense, with the way the river is running, that they used a barge to get it there, because that meant they'd have to have brought it in from the eastern side. If they had it on the eastern side, where we couldn't get at it, why would they bring it to an easily infiltrated cave on the western side where we could inspect it? Seems like their intended ritual would have gone over better on the eastern side, with no chance of us interrupting, and closer to their great mysterious power source that is probably Mor Naril. I know they had to be on the western side to find the gift of death and all that, but there really was no reason to bring the sarcophagus over.

It really doesn't make any sense. Even if we assumed the delivery took place from the Western side or the open ocean somehow... Why would they keep it there and not bring it to the safe Eastern half of the island immediately? I know, we had to be able to find it somehow... but still, it doesn't seem logical.

I question whether we really did need to find it. Did we really need to know their intention was to bring back Mannimarco in order for us to keep wanting to stop them? What if we hadn't found out that bit, and then at the end we're surprised by them summoning Mannimarco's soul from wherever it was. When Wormblood calls out, "Portal the sarcophagus!" we could have been wondering, "Sarcophagus? What?" I think if we had figured out they were after the gift of death, that alone would have been motivation enough for us to keep them from getting it, regardless of what we thought they wanted it for. And then we could have still done that fake-trade where we duped them into the Colored Rooms, and so forth from there.

I don't know. It's easy to pick apart the story after it's been told. Maybe the knowledge of the sarcophagus was integral and I'm just not seeing it because I know how the whole story went.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Half-meat, half-magicka?

And obviously a person's stamina is also a seperate thing

Ok, one-third meat, one-third magicka, one-third stamina. That's what our characters are made of.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That might make more sense if the soul-shriven were being tortured more often. Mostly they're just standing around and staring at things as if they have no brain. Or hanging out in whatever decrepit village or camp, listening to Cadwell sing tunes. So, yeah, I'm sticking with my initial assessment of inefficient use of mortals.

Maybe we just don't see the horrible acts of torture because of... safety. You know, the same issue as with those tame Sanguine parties.

Except most of our experience with the soul-shriven folks is from base game. Though I guess Molag Bal is big into mental torture, too, like what he did to Lyris. But she was never soul-shriven, so...that doesn't solve the conundrum about soul-shriven brains. The point is: it's all very mysterious.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In Mannimarco's defense, I doubt he had much input on the Coldharbour castle design and decor. I think it looks that way because that's what things in Coldharbour look like. And I think Molag Bal would definitely go in for the shock value of such things, so maybe he's the one who is actually the ultimate edge lord. Add that to his list of titles.
It would be interesting to see what Mannimarco's house/den/lair would look like if he had full control over setting it up. I'm guessing it would still have the edge lord feel to it, though. He did want to take over Molag Bal's position, after all, so that probably included all the edginess.

Who knows. Maybe he does enjoy that somehow. Let's say while it might be considered dramatic by some, it's not exactly the kind of dramatic that I'd find interesting But really, I'd love to see how his place would look like in a more normal location in the current era. He always emphasizes being Aldmer so much, so I'd expect that to also be reflected in his way of living and his abode. Maybe he occupied an awesome manor on the Eastern side of the island now? Or he lives like a hobo again, barefoot, in some cave... Will poor Vanny survive that?

We know that Vanny, in point of fact, doesn't survive direct exposure to Mannimarco at some point. I'm guessing his current base of operations is similarly grim-dark to his Coldharbour castle, most likely because it's in Mor Naril, and that place was probably always gruesome and so forth.

Do you think, when we finally face him again, he mentions anything about whether or not we freed him from that slab? Or maybe he'll say something like, "Before I kill you, I just want to know: whatever did happen to that amulet of kings?"

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I always got the impression the king was sending Rigurt to far-flung places in the guise of cultural ambassador because Rigurt was causing more trouble than he was worth at home in Windhelm. You know, upsetting important people, or bothering the king with endless chatter: that kind of thing. Basically, making him someone else's problem.

In any way, from my point of view some funny characters suffer from being overused. Some jokes might be funny the first and the second time, some concepts might also work well with variations in different environments, but at some point, it might get too repetative and often it can also be observed that the story gets less creative with every return - probably because everything that could be told is already told (and they also don't seem to want to get too complex with the character, but stick to the original funny thing, so no character development or new traits either). But since "people like them" they still have to return, I guess.

There is a balance to be struck between never bringing a character back, and brining them back too often. I do like to see returning characters, because if my character made a connection with them, it makes sense that they'd maintain some manner of contact. But, I've seen the argument that always bringing back characters makes the world seem smaller, and I do understand that. Above all that, though, is the issue with "one note" characters like Rigurt, or Lady Laurent. Once you've seen what their deal is, they just aren't that interesting any more. At least, not to me.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, between the "mighty warriors" and the "like to drink and have fun" traits, they seem to lean rather heavily on the latter. Maybe because it's harder to showcase strength of arms among npcs, since it's always the player character doing all the fighting. I just completed the Geirmund's Hall quests the other day, and it's yet more drinking and partying Nords, and then when a problem comes up (because drunken bards thought they could soothe giants) I'm the one who has to handle it.

Their culture must surely have more aspects than getting drunk and fighting (warrior culture or not - and not every Nord is a warrior). I'd like new quests to explore more of what we haven't seen yet, while still being plausible for their culture (and not breaking any established lore) - their main culture, so we learn more about that and their characterization gains complexity. Not a "At this remote place, everything is different!" story; not saying those can't be good, but very fringe cases disconnected to the main culture don't contribute to learning about the main culture, and that's where my interest lies.

The culture certainly does have more to it than those two things. I just picked the two most common aspects of it. Or, at least, the two we see most commonly in game. Western Skyrim at least seemed a bit more serious than Eastern Skyrim. (Maybe if you don't have a bard for a king, you celebrate less. ) There was a lot of interesting lore in the collection for the Bard's College, too. Been awhile since I took a character through Western Skyrim; might have to figure out who would go there next.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

There is, yes.

I opened a thread there earlier, no reactions so far. Honestly, I'm not even sure if that subforum gets much attention. I hope at least a mod or dev might see it and answer the question whether it's a bug or supposed to be this way.

Threads in that forum typically don't get a lot of reaction, unless someone posts something they think is a bug but isn't, and then players can let them know. I view it as a place to let ZOS know something's off with the game.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm not seeing the distinction between someone saying Merric shouldn't have hit the soul reaper without really knowing what it was and the way any of the Solstice quests ended. As far as I recall, no one came out and directly said, to me, the moral of the story. I'm not denying the quests had a "moral of the story" tone to them, but it didn't strike me as being quite as condescending as it did you.

Makes me wonder whether that difference is based on the translation. Unfortunately, the dialogues for most quests from the new content aren't on UESP yet, so I also can't check right now.

While I generally loved the Corelanya Manor quest, the ending dialogue hinted into that direction for me. It was a bit... how to say it? "In your face"? And I personally don't like that much, no matter whether I agree or disagree with the moral or lesson itself.

So, yes, it's not even about the content, but mostly about the way it's presented to us, for me at least. Whether I'm directly adressed, the wording, probably also the situation. Let's say some npc does something stupid and in that very moment (or right after it) an npc situatively calls out "Well, that was stupid..." - that has a different feel to me than if that character would explain to me at the end of the quest "What we saw character x doing earlier was stupid, behavior y is not correct (instead one should prefer to do z)".

Yeah, I understand. Some of the npcs did play a bit of the Captain Obvious role, to be sure. Then again, with Corelanya Manor, I didn't have the same feeling about the sisters as you did. As someone with a lot of siblings, their rivalry and competitiveness rang true to me, as well as the misunderstandings they fell prey to. I could easily understand how they ended up in that situation.

Side note: as someone who comes from a large family, Mirri's comments on her large family often make me think: Really? Because the things she says does not fit with my experience. (In particular, "When you come from a big family, you have to know how to scrap." Um, no. No, you really don't.)

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If I'm understanding correctly, it takes as long as the server-wide effort makes it take. That is, more people participating and completing the quests, the quicker it finishes. I really don't know how long they expect it to take.

They must have a certain planning, with a time estimation, based on usual player participation, I would think. At least it would feel strange if participation would be much higher than expected and then the Wall is gone after a day - or people wouldn't care much and then it's still there after 3 weeks.

Of course it's possible that if the server hasn't brought down the wall after a certain amount of time, they bring it down anyway. I'm sure they can make adjustments on their end. Well, I know they can, because they sped up the time for the PTS, for testing purposes. But since they did make a point of seeing which server completes it first, I imagine they're pretty confident they won't have to interfere much.

Back in the day, I played through a similar style event in WoW (opening the gates of Ahn Qiraj) and it was server based, too. So it really was a community-driven event, and that's what I imagine the Writhing Wall event will be.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ok, one-third meat, one-third magicka, one-third stamina. That's what our characters are made of.

Nah, there are more components. Flesh is only one layer. Stamina, health and magicka seem to be another one. And it can't be the soul, because we still have those three even if we don't have a soul - so the soul seems to be a third layer. I found it funny, by the way, that they actually made a person's health, magicka and stamina actual things in lore, through that one Vanny quest, so they've become more than just some display value of the UI.

Well, if you're going to take a silly joke and make a serious point out of it!

I do still wonder what the point of a soul is, considering all we can do without it. In fact, not having it even enabled us to do things in quests that would have been impossible if we did have a soul. It's also an interesting idea that our health, magicka, and stamina are self-aware parts of us. Or maybe that was just something that applies to the Great Mage. Remember, he purposely separated those three components so the daedra couldn't use his whole self for their evil designs. It's possible that everyone else's health, magicka, and stamina are just fully enmeshed with their flesh.

Which makes me wonder: why has Vanny done nothing like that this time around? If he's capable of such magic when captured, what's up with him just sending weak-signal projections that degrade the longer we speak to him? Is it because he threw his staff at us? Or, wait, no...don't tell me...it's because of the Wall.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Except most of our experience with the soul-shriven folks is from base game. Though I guess Molag Bal is big into mental torture, too, like what he did to Lyris. But she was never soul-shriven, so...that doesn't solve the conundrum about soul-shriven brains. The point is: it's all very mysterious.

Makes me wonder whether there was any Loremaster's Archive about such topics.

And then I'm remembered that how much of a pity it is that they didn't give an answer to the question whether the Wall and the Dunmer Ghostfences are somehow related in the last one.

I do appreciate the Loremaster's Archive articles, but they never answer everything I want answered, that's for sure.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

We know that Vanny, in point of fact, doesn't survive direct exposure to Mannimarco at some point.

But it wasn't Mannimarco's lack of aesthetic sense that killed him

Well, we don't know that! Maybe it was, and the person who spun the tale didn't realize it. Or didn't want to admit it. So it had to be a big battle and valiant attempts and etc. I mean, Mannimarco did come crawling out of a hole in a mountainside...he probably wasn't wearing shoes, clothes in tatters, possibly degraded lich body...there's only so much an Altmer can take of that kind of thing.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm guessing his current base of operations is similarly grim-dark to his Coldharbour castle, most likely because it's in Mor Naril, and that place was probably always gruesome and so forth.

Can one just set up a base in Mor Naril? I don't mean whether Mannimarco would enjoy that (a place name that can be translated to "final dark" - not to be confused with "Ceynaril" - "final shadow" - is certainly dramatic), but whether it would be feasible?

I don't know what one can or cannot do in Mor Naril. I know it was closed off or sealed away or something. And that now it's perhaps been "awakened." I suppose we'll find out in a few months! (Based on the translation you cited, 'naril' must be the word that equates to 'final'. 'Mor' always makes me think of death, for obvious reasons. No big point to make, just thinking about words.)

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Do you think, when we finally face him again, he mentions anything about whether or not we freed him from that slab? Or maybe he'll say something like, "Before I kill you, I just want to know: whatever did happen to that amulet of kings?"

I honestly hope he'll say more than just some random dark and dramatic phase at all. Even if I find them amusing, really amusing, I'd be curious to learn a few things more from our pale, emaciated fellow (a description which would also fit a Soulshriven).

Honestly, I'd truly love to have a longer dialogue with him. I would have found that interesting with different antagonists throughout the years, but sadly, many of them might just have a line or two, or even none at all, and then they attack - or rather we attack, but we can't choose to do anything else anyway. It's not like in TES3 where we could choose to chat with Dagoth Ur for 10 minutes before we decide to fight.

It's possible we get a dialogue with him. We did get to chat a bit with Rada al Saran in Greymoor, at one point, so there is a precedent for it. And we know this isn't the final end of Mannimarco, so maybe we'll get to chat him up when we, I dunno, imprison him?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

There is a balance to be struck between never bringing a character back, and brining them back too often. I do like to see returning characters, because if my character made a connection with them, it makes sense that they'd maintain some manner of contact. But, I've seen the argument that always bringing back characters makes the world seem smaller, and I do understand that.

Generally, I like some characters and like to see them return. But whether I'm actually happy with it then truly depends on the execution of the quest.

I think one problem is that some returning characters basically show up everywhere, whether it makes sense for them to be there or not. Especially with "fan favorites" I often have the impression they try to put them into the chapter/dlc somehow and just make up a story around that - whether it's believable doesn't seem to matter that much. The whole problem could be avoided by paying more attention to whether an appearance is plausible or not.

Sometimes I found it rather strange to see a character being put into a story at a location that just makes you wonder why they ever should have ended up there - and at the same time, I was also astonished at times about getting a zone where someone's appearance would be rather plausible, but then they did not show up there. I know I'm repeating myself, but wouldn't Necrom have been a great opportunity to bring back some already known Telvanni or Tribunal Temple characters? Yes, I know, we had a short encounter with Gothren. But what's with Revus or Divayth? Or with the Telvanni we helped with his research at the Brothers Of Strife? Or with the Ordinator we met in Gil-Var-Delle? Or any of the Temple people from Vvardenfell? Or maybe the young Temple priest we met in the Deadlands might have ended up here, finally (We never see him again, do we? Despite helping him return to Tamriel)?

And if they'd actually have wanted to make something about Dunmeri funerary rites, which Necrom would have been the perfect place for, they could have let us meet any random Dunmer character from an earlier chapter again, make up some story about a relative who had recently passed away, and let us help with the ritual preparations necessary for the burial in a quest or small questline. I don't think anyone would argue with that, because it fits the place and the story. The thing that counts is whether it makes sense for a character to be there.

I agree that returning characters work best when there's a natural reason for them to be there. I know you don't like him, but Raz's appearance in Elsweyr fits that criteria. He has a family and a home (of sorts) there, so it made sense to see him, but he was confined to a side-quest and wasn't working as Eye of the Queen. Ashur had a good story in Elsweyr that didn't seem out of place. So they definitely know how to bring back characters in a fitting manner. I really think they wrote themselves into a corner, though, by focusing on "fan favorites."

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The culture certainly does have more to it than those two things. I just picked the two most common aspects of it. Or, at least, the two we see most commonly in game. Western Skyrim at least seemed a bit more serious than Eastern Skyrim. (Maybe if you don't have a bard for a king, you celebrate less. ) There was a lot of interesting lore in the collection for the Bard's College, too. Been awhile since I took a character through Western Skyrim; might have to figure out who would go there next.

I'm curious what we'll see in the remaining parts of Skyrim. There's still space left for at least two zones, if they kept the usual size.

And Solstheim would also be interesting, although probably rather empty at the current time. But who knows, they'd probably invent a (temporary) settlement of some kind, because they usually want us to have a hub city? That would be an interesting thing to see, if it retained the atmosphere of a big camp, with palisades and makeshift huts.

I didn't really care for Solstheim in Skyrim, but I'd be open to exploring it in the second era.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Threads in that forum typically don't get a lot of reaction, unless someone posts something they think is a bug but isn't, and then players can let them know. I view it as a place to let ZOS know something's off with the game.

I don't expect a bigger discussion, I just hope it's seen. Hard to say without at least a short confirmation.

I really don't know that ZOS posts much there. I'm sure they monitor it, but unless they have a definite fix or workaround to post about, there's probably no point to them posting anything. And since fixes usually show up in patch notes, there's probably even less incentive to post about it there.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Then again, with Corelanya Manor, I didn't have the same feeling about the sisters as you did. As someone with a lot of siblings, their rivalry and competitiveness rang true to me, as well as the misunderstandings they fell prey to. I could easily understand how they ended up in that situation.
Side note: as someone who comes from a large family, Mirri's comments on her large family often make me think: Really? Because the things she says does not fit with my experience. (In particular, "When you come from a big family, you have to know how to scrap." Um, no. No, you really don't.)

I think it's probably a very individual thing that differs in every family? A close friend was basically best friends with her sister, and in my first partner's family, everything also seemed very harmonic. We usually stayed there for 2 months every summer, so I've been there long enough to see more than the "We've got a guest - behave!" facade It felt a little strange to be refered to by my partner's mother as her "child", by the way - but she called all of us that: her children; so she had 6 "children", 3 real ones, and 3 that were actually her real children's spouses/partners. They had a huge house and everyone lived on their seperate floor with their partner (well, except for us, who just came visiting in summer), but of course, you'd spend a lot of time together, have meals together, etc. Which would be a nightmare, I assume, if one doesn't get along well - but in this case, it worked really well.

I mean, sure, everyone's family experience is unique to them, but scrapping on the regular? Even in my family, which wasn't particularly harmonious, there wasn't any scrapping. And even at our noisiest and busiest, we didn't compare to a city. At one point, our household consisted of: my parents, me, my six siblings, my paternal grandmother, a cat, and a dog. Still nothing like a city. Still no regular scraps breaking out. In fact, the fights that did happen were more memorable because they weren't the usual.

But, I have always wondered if by family she means just her immediate family or her extended family.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, if you're going to take a silly joke and make a serious point out of it!

Metaphysics and philosophy are no joke

They sometimes seem like they are!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I do still wonder what the point of a soul is, considering all we can do without it. In fact, not having it even enabled us to do things in quests that would have been impossible if we did have a soul.

Maybe it's not actually our complete soul we're missing, but a split part of it? Or did we get a daedric replacement soul, too?

Is that even possible? I thought one of the things that set daedra apart was their lack of soul. The Prophet seems to think that, because we haven't got our soul, we're barely a person, and we do go through an awful lot to get it back. However, getting it back doesn't change anything about us, or our abilities, or anything. So...seems like our soul is very much non-essential.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's also an interesting idea that our health, magicka, and stamina are self-aware parts of us. Or maybe that was just something that applies to the Great Mage. Remember, he purposely separated those three components so the daedra couldn't use his whole self for their evil designs. It's possible that everyone else's health, magicka, and stamina are just fully enmeshed with their flesh.

I might not, under normal circumstances, be able to seperate them, but I can certainly still influence them: I can easily reduce my stamina to zero - by depriving myself of sleep for a week and then running 3 miles! I can also easily lower another person's health (to zero, if necessary), but that process is a little bit more gruesome

True, but that doesn't make them separate from your flesh, necessarily. If your body was gone, would those still exist? I guess, if you believe your body is made of oblivion goo, then yes, they do exist without your original body. But since I don't believe that, and my characters all have their original bodies, I'm going with those three things being part of the body.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Which makes me wonder: why has Vanny done nothing like that this time around? If he's capable of such magic when captured, what's up with him just sending weak-signal projections that degrade the longer we speak to him? Is it because he threw his staff at us? Or, wait, no...don't tell me...it's because of the Wall.

You seem to be forgetting that this is all the Great Mage's plan! His captivity, his... whatever he's doing now... It all serves a great purpose!

I wasn't forgetting so much as I was doubting the wisdom of such an approach.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I do appreciate the Loremaster's Archive articles, but they never answer everything I want answered, that's for sure.

I want to ask Mannimarco some silly questionable fascinating questions.

Hmm, maybe that can be his punishment when we "defeat" him this time. Make him listen to all your questions and insist he answer them! You know how annoyed he gets with questions.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, we don't know that! Maybe it was, and the person who spun the tale didn't realize it. Or didn't want to admit it. So it had to be a big battle and valiant attempts and etc. I mean, Mannimarco did come crawling out of a hole in a mountainside...he probably wasn't wearing shoes, clothes in tatters, possibly degraded lich body...there's only so much an Altmer can take of that kind of thing.

The worst thing about that epic poem is this part:
"His eyes burning dark fire, he opened his toothless maw,"
Where I'm from, you don't talk like that about the elderly!

So...I'm saying definitely degraded lich body, then.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't know what one can or cannot do in Mor Naril. I know it was closed off or sealed away or something. And that now it's perhaps been "awakened." I suppose we'll find out in a few months!

The biggest question to me, apart from what might be there to awaken, is: Will is look like Edgelord Castle again?

Probably, since it was always a daedric temple city of evil.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

(Based on the translation you cited, 'naril' must be the word that equates to 'final'. 'Mor' always makes me think of death, for obvious reasons. No big point to make, just thinking about words.)

While do Ayleid cities often have such unwelcoming names anyway?

To keep out the riff-raff?

They were big into daedric worship, right? Probably just comes with the territory.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And we know this isn't the final end of Mannimarco, so maybe we'll get to chat him up when we, I dunno, imprison him?

Imprison? And who's going to free him then the next time, so he can move to Daggerfall and live in a barrow?

Does it matter? Whatever we do to him, we (the players) know he ends up in Daggerfall in the future. Our characters won't be around to see it, so they can just think to themselves: Job's done!

Anything else is a problem for future heroes.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So they definitely know how to bring back characters in a fitting manner.

But again the best examples are from ESO's early years.

Would you consider Elsweyr part of the early years? I think of it more as middle years. Anyway, did you find Revus Demnevanni's appearance in Blackwood fitting? If so, that's a more recent example than Elsweyr. What about Quen's reappearance in Galen? Ashur in the Telvanni Peninsula? Granted, I understand your point about not having returning Telvanni in the Telvanni Peninsula, and I really was hoping for Revus or Divayth to show up there, but they have done more recent returning characters that weren't out of place.

I also think it works better if the returning character has one or two quests they're involved in rather than being deeply enmeshed in the main quest. If we hadn't been confronted with Jakarn's "charms" at every point of the main quest in High Isle, perhaps he wouldn't have been so very annoying.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I didn't really care for Solstheim in Skyrim, but I'd be open to exploring it in the second era.

I enjoyed it in TES3. I even had two houses on that island.

I think TES3 Solstheim is where I developed my deep-seated loathing of spriggans.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I mean, sure, everyone's family experience is unique to them, but scrapping on the regular? Even in my family, which wasn't particularly harmonious, there wasn't any scrapping. And even at our noisiest and busiest, we didn't compare to a city. At one point, our household consisted of: my parents, me, my six siblings, my paternal grandmother, a cat, and a dog. Still nothing like a city. Still no regular scraps breaking out. In fact, the fights that did happen were more memorable because they weren't the usual.
But, I have always wondered if by family she means just her immediate family or her extended family.

Maybe Mirri grew up amongst opossums. Yes, I know, I know, she's a Hlaalu, but that's not much of a difference, is it?

Lol, is that the Telvanni opinion of Hlaalu?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Is that even possible? I thought one of the things that set daedra apart was their lack of soul.

But we've been a person before, so then, maybe, the soul could be copied, just like the rest of us was copied?

But a soul isn't material. What would they make it out of? I can accept that the average daedra forms from chaotic creatia, and even that soul-shriven are given a body made of such (with or without brain), but a soul is something different entirely.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The Prophet seems to think that, because we haven't got our soul, we're barely a person, and we do go through an awful lot to get it back. However, getting it back doesn't change anything about us, or our abilities, or
anything. So...seems like our soul is very much non-essential.

I'm honestly more worried about my body anyway. Where is it now? What nonsense might some idiot cultist do with it that should be rather done by myself? Now imagine one day you might have to fight against an evil brainless thrall of yourself!

Won't happen. My characters never lost their bodies.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

True, but that doesn't make them separate from your flesh, necessarily. If your body was gone, would those still exist? I guess, if you believe your body is made of oblivion goo, then yes, they do exist without your original body. But since I don't believe that, and my characters all have their original bodies, I'm going with those three things being part of the body.

In any way, I'd rather see them as being aspects that belong to the body than as belonging to the soul. They're basically the physical life force, I guess? Is there a scholar we can ask about this?

I bet Sotha Sil knows.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wasn't forgetting so much as I was doubting the wisdom of such an approach.

If his plan was to meet Mannimarco again, he has succeeded.

If that was his plan, he had access to some information he didn't share with us. When he was captured/willingly taken, none of us knew Mannimarco was anything but dead and gone. (Talking about character knowledge, not player knowledge.)

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Hmm, maybe that can be his punishment when we "defeat" him this time. Make him listen to all your questions and insist he answer them! You know how annoyed he gets with questions.

It might depend on the quality of questions. You must admit: The question "Where to find a corpse?" is rather stupid.

It is, yes, but I bet his view of what makes a stupid question is a lot different than ours. That is to say, he probably thinks most questions are stupid.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So...I'm saying definitely degraded lich body, then.

According to that poem, yes. But is it the truth? Why would he even be that degraded now? He also doesn't sound like he has no teeth left.

Maybe Wormblood's body isn't up to the task of whatever Mannimarco intends to do.

Of course, I don't actually think we're at the point of their final confrontation. And I don't think that poem was a factual recounting of the confrontation anyway.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Probably, since it was always a daedric temple city of evil.

It depends on what aspects of Molag Bal the people who built the temple city venerated. What was their view of him? Just because of a relation to Molag Bal and necromancy, it doesn't have to look like a cheap party accessory store right before Halloween. Corelanya Manor also didn't scream "edgy" despite a powerful necromancer living there. There were some interesting display cases, but those looked like they contained the collection of a scholar, and weren't just put up to look "edgy".

The necromancer of Corelanya wasn't a Molag Bal worshipper though, was he? Anyway, I'm not saying the temple has to look like anything in particular, but based on what we've seen in game of such places, they all have a similar look to them. Since Mor Naril has been referenced as a place of great evil, I assume it would have the architecture to match. Also, I've never seen anything in the game related to Molag Bal that wasn't grim-dark edge lord style.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They were big into daedric worship, right? Probably just comes with the territory.

There were both Aedra and Daedra worshipping Ayleids. Think of the many statues of Auri-El/Akatosh we see at Ayleid ruins. And among those who worshipped the Daedra, some worshipped Meridia or Azura. Light plays a huge role in Ayleid religion and culture. Also starlight.

Well, seems like the only ones we ever come across were the dark daedra worshipping ones. Do the ruins that were known to have Ayleids that worshipped Aedra have those kind of names? Honestly, I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to Ayleid lore.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Does it matter? Whatever we do to him, we (the players) know he ends up in Daggerfall in the future. Our characters won't be around to see it, so they can just think to themselves: Job's done!
Anything else is a problem for future heroes.

I really want a more interesting end. Something beyond "He fled again!" or just banishing him who knows where.

What kind of ending do you imagine would work and fit with what you want? Not being challenging here; just genuinely curious. I've been trying to think of what a satisfying ending to this season's story would look like, knowing as I do that Mannimarco lives on for centuries still.

Syldras wrote: »

Anyway, I'll continue doing the Mages Guild quests this evening. Curious how far I'll get. It's a bit weird though to always get the follow-up quest without any waiting time now because I've already got such a high level on that character. In one of the very first quests it already broke immersion: Valaste told me she'd need a long time to translate that book we've found - and then you'd just walk upstairs and get yelled at that Valaste has finally finished the translation and you should go talk to her.

I think the Mage and Fighters guild quests are available based on your mage and fighters guild levels, not character level, but I'm not sure. I know that there's usually not any wait time for my characters, because I'm advancing the guild levels pretty quickly, what with picking up every lore book I see, and closing every dolmen I come across.

Regardless, the quest flow does suffer from getting the quests back to back like that. There's even some of that in the Fighters guild line, when they're researching or having translated some documents and so forth. I usually solve for that particular annoyance by just not picking up the quest until I feel an appropriate amount of time has passed. Shalidor can shout at me at every mages guild if he wants, but I'm not taking the quest until poor Valaste has had time to study the book. "Your timing is impeccable, adept!" Yes. Yes, it is.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Anyway, did you find Revus Demnevanni's appearance in Blackwood fitting? If so, that's a more recent example than Elsweyr. What about Quen's reappearance in Galen? Ashur in the Telvanni Peninsula? Granted, I understand your point about not having returning Telvanni in the Telvanni Peninsula, and I really was hoping for Revus or Divayth to show up there, but they have done more recent returning characters that weren't out of place.

And to be honest, while I enjoyed seeing Fennorian again in the West Weald, I found the whole story much too "constructed". You know, the artificial feel: How probable was it that he'd see that lady again at that location of all places?! Ursilia or whatever her name was. And then even being married to a vampire. Too many coincidences for me.

I can't believe I left out Fennorian showing up in West Weald! Yeah, I was glad to see him, because I adore him, but it probably wasn't that natural of a fit. Unless...well, House Ravenwatch does try to keep a rein on "bad" vampires, so it fits that he was there for that reason. I think it was the ex-betrothed that pushed it into questionable territory, though I did like learning more about his life, so I really can't complain too much.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also think it works better if the returning character has one or two quests they're involved in rather than being deeply enmeshed in the main quest. If we hadn't been confronted with Jakarn's "charms" at every point of the main quest in High Isle, perhaps he wouldn't have been so very annoying.

I believe that's more a matter of the writing quality. Jakarn would have been less annoying if he'd gotten a more complex characterization (I mean, that would actually be the advantage of interacting with one character through a longer questline, right? Much more time for us to get to know that character in detail - it's just sad though if it turns out that there's not much to learn) - and hadn't been that obtrusive. Now imagine we had gotten a really well-written story in Telvanni territory with Divayth or Revus leading through the whole main story - I certainly wouldn't complain!

Right, if Jakarn had been written more like his original appearance, he would have been better. I was talking about the Jakarn we got in High Isle. They wrote him like that on purpose, and I think it wouldn't have been so bad if we hadn't seen so much of him. His story in Elsweyr wasn't too bad, I think, but even then I wouldn't have wanted more of him in the zone. Of some characters a little goes a long way, and I think Jakarn is one of those. I did like him as a character in the starter zone, but we didn't actually see that much of him.

I would have enjoyed a well-written Telvanni story lead by Revus and/or Divayth. Instead we got, well, you know. You were there.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol, is that the Telvanni opinion of Hlaalu?

Is there anyone who likes the Hlaalu? Except for the Hlaalu, I mean?

I don't mind them. They're better than Dres.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But a soul isn't material. What would they make it out of? I can accept that the average daedra forms from chaotic creatia, and even that soul-shriven are given a body made of such (with or without brain), but a soul is something different entirely.

But the daedra also have something like a spirit. Something that always returns into their body and lets them resurrect. They also have consciousness and an individual character. Whatever that spirit consists of, couldn't a Soulshriven get the same thing to replace their soul after it was removed and collected from their body by Molag Bal?

They have a consciousness. I don't know if they have a spirit. But if they do have a spirit-like something that tethers them, and allows them to reform, that still doesn't explain how one of those could be made and put into a soul-shriven body. And even if it could be, our characters didn't get one.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Won't happen. My characters never lost their bodies.

I wouldn't object to fighting a clone of my own character in some quest.

Isn't there a combat mechanic in some quest or boss fight where shadow versions of ourselves come at us? Or am I thinking of a different game? Anyway, when you say clone of your character, do you mean with all the skills you have assigned and everything? Or just a physical representation of you?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If that was his plan, he had access to some information he didn't share with us. When he was captured/willingly taken, none of us knew Mannimarco was anything but dead and gone. (Talking about character knowledge, not player knowledge.)

The companions were with us when we (potentially) released Mannimarco. Maybe he learnt of it somehow and knew that if the Worm Cult ever returns, it will be his doing? Or maybe he just assumes it. Because if not Mannimarco himself, who would be capable of it? I still hope that Wormblood is no one else but Soulshriven Mannimarco - and that Vanny expected exactly that.

Even if we released Mannimarco's Coldharbour form, that doesn't equate to him being back on Nirn. I know we come and go from Coldharbour like it's just a day-trip to the beach, but canonically it's not supposed to be easy to get in or out. So though a disembodied, or soul-shriven, or whatever version of Mannimarco was on that slab, running free around Coldharbour isn't perhaps ideal, it's not a given that he could just pop on back to Nirn whenever he wanted. Also, did we know about Wormblood in the prologue when Vanny was kidnapped?

I'm sticking with the Great Mage's kidnap plan not being well-thought out.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Maybe Wormblood's body isn't up to the task of whatever Mannimarco intends to do.

I'm wondering whether he still plans to do anything with his old body.

He didn't seem very concerned about it. He was probably glad to get into a younger body that hadn't been killed yet.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The necromancer of Corelanya wasn't a Molag Bal worshipper though, was he? Anyway, I'm not saying the temple has to look like anything in particular, but based on what we've seen in game of such places, they all have a similar look to them. Since Mor Naril has been referenced as a place of great evil, I assume it would have the architecture to match. Also, I've never seen anything in the game related to Molag Bal that wasn't grim-dark edge lord style.

Since skulls don't necessary look edgy (at least I've never seen a vanitas painting or memento mori depiction that made me think of edgelord behavior), I'm wondering how much of it is due to game graphics. Many skull decors looks so... plasticky?

I don't think skulls in and of themselves are edgy. It's the skulls along with the corpses, the dark colors and sharp edges, the blue lighting, and the dankness that remind me of someone trying really, really hard to come across as dark and foreboding. I'd be surprised if Mor Naril isn't as dark, and angular, and filled with bones as any other Molag Bal property.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, seems like the only ones we ever come across were the dark daedra worshipping ones. Do the ruins that were known to have Ayleids that worshipped Aedra have those kind of names? Honestly, I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to Ayleid lore.

Nah:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Barsaebic_Ayleids
And Loriasel is definitely one of their cities, and that name can be translated to "Hall of Darkness".

Well, if they were as into light as you say, maybe giving their places dark names was meant as a sort of ward against that darkness. Naming it so it has no power over them, or something. Or giving it due respect as the opposite/balance of the light.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

What kind of ending do you imagine would work and fit with what you want? Not being challenging here; just genuinely curious. I've been trying to think of what a satisfying ending to this season's story would look like, knowing as I do that Mannimarco lives on for centuries still.

My perfect ending? Something happening that makes Mannimarco break the Worm Cult's association to Molag Bal and side with us to ban the big threat, turning him into a more morally grey character. Basically I'd love to see something that closes the gap between ESO Mannimarco and Daggerfall Mannimarco (who was morally questionable, but not 100% evil, a potential quest giver npc, had no connection to Molag Bal or daedra at all, and gave up all world domination/destruction plans to approach his apotheosis plans in a different way).

I wonder if they could pull off a change like that. I'm not against it, but they have set him up as a certain type of character, and a change like that might come across as abrupt. I guess it depends on what happens, and whether or not we see him coming to that point where he does want to break the association with Molag Bal. Maybe it could be as simple as him realizing his world domination plans aren't going to work, so he needs to find a different way to become a god. I don't see him giving up on world domination because of any epiphany or moral reckoning, but if he failed at it enough times, I could see him reassessing his options and trying a different path.

But yes, that is an ending I could like. Only, what happens to Mannimarco at the end? We just let him go his way? Somehow I don't think that would fly with Vanny, or anyone.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think the Mage and Fighters guild quests are available based on your mage and fighters guild levels, not character level, but I'm not sure. I know that there's usually not any wait time for my characters, because I'm advancing the guild levels pretty quickly, what with picking up every lore book I see, and closing every dolmen I come across.

That's interesting, because I can't remember doing any dolmens really on that character (except for what has to be done for the main quest), and while he might have found a few books while doing the main quest, it weren't that many either. Still, so far, he just progressed through the quests without any stop. I can remember it was differently back then before One Tamriel and my main actually had waiting times.

It might not be related to the guild levels; I just thought it had that mechanic to it. It could be a figment of my imagination.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I can't believe I left out Fennorian showing up in West Weald! Yeah, I was glad to see him, because I adore him, but it probably wasn't that natural of a fit. Unless...well, House Ravenwatch does try to keep a rein on "bad" vampires, so it fits that he was there for that reason. I think it was the ex-betrothed that pushed it into questionable territory, though I did like learning more about his life, so I really can't complain too much.

To be honest, the whole quest was a bit strange; it also was rather inconsistent in terms of logic congruency, the worst part probably being the question whether vampires can drink that stupid wine or not. First we're told several times that it's poisonous to vampires (and even saw a death hound perishing from eating the grapes), and then the first thing Fennorian does upon entering the party is grabbing a chalice of exactly that wine and drinking it... Not even a minute after telling us how dangerous it is. Ah well, I had already criticized the whole thing in detail once, even when it was still on PTS - discussion starting here (although there's also a bit on the first page of that thread already):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8119402/#Comment_8119402
I fully appreciate getting deeper lore about some characters (and Fennorian is certainly one I like more than many others), but that quest unfortunately had a lot of flaws, from my point of view.

Well, I agree in essence, but...Fennorian. This is a classic example of a player willing to overlook quest flaws because they are so happy to see a returning character; basically, my love of Fennorian helps me put up with the rest. But I know you're right; the quest is flawed.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Right, if Jakarn had been written more like his original appearance, he would have been better. I was talking about the Jakarn we got in High Isle. They wrote him like that on purpose, and I think it wouldn't have been so bad if we hadn't seen so much of him. His story in Elsweyr wasn't too bad, I think, but even then I wouldn't have wanted more of him in the zone. Of some characters a little goes a long way, and I think Jakarn is one of those. I did like him as a character in the starter zone, but we didn't actually see that much of him.
I would have enjoyed a well-written Telvanni story lead by Revus and/or Divayth. Instead we got, well, you know. You were there.

For me it also really depends on how extensive they can go in terms of character lore. If a character is mostly one-note and they only focus on one singular trait, it's too much to have that character around all the time. But if they present us a truly multi-faceted characterization - that's wonderful. Now, of course, we never know beforehand what we'd get. Revus as a quest lead could also be implemented in a disappointing way, by only focusing on one or two aspects, and if the only thing we'd get would be "quirky, clumsy" that could be just as boring as a character whose main trait is "flirty" (but most of all I'd fear they could dumb him down, like it was done with Jakarn, and just make everything about him "funny" - while, slightly clumsy and eccentric or not, he is a scholar and inventor). For my taste, there's often too much emphasis on just one character aspect. Well, and not only when it comes to individuals; we already discussed the "Nord = drunken and a little dense" thing yesterday. It's basically the same issue.

That's kind of what I worry about with returning characters these days: that they focus too much on only one aspect of their character/personality, and then we get a surfeit of that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't mind them. They're better than Dres.

A Dres might sell strangers. A Hlaalu would sell their own grandma (Or parents. Or siblings. Anyone, really).

Probably not now that they're part of the Ebonheart Pact and there's no slavery allowed. But Dres never joined, so they're still doing all their hateful Dres things.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They have a consciousness. I don't know if they have a spirit. But if they do have a spirit-like something that tethers them, and allows them to reform, that still doesn't explain how one of those could be made and put into a soul-shriven body. And even if it could be, our characters didn't get one.

Can we be sure we didn't get that? It's not stated, but obviously, our character is animated by... something, as a Soulshriven. We don't know whether this "spirit" could be produced or just come to existence somehow, since we don't know anything of its nature. We don't know what it is, how daedra get it, whether it might multiply.

We can't be sure of anything that isn't explicitly part of the lore. It's never stated or shown or even hinted at that we are anything but a soulless undead who somehow has no problem getting about in the world. Honestly, it kind of seems like it wasn't thought all the way through. It's kind of a mish-mash of daedric lore twisted to fit game mechanics that really didn't need any extraordinary explanation (characters in MMOs need to be able to resurrect, that's just how it works, and I don't think any "but it fits with lore!" explanation was ever needed). Yet if they were determined to make it fit with lore, they should have provided more information on how we exist at all. Surely the Prophet could have told us, said something more than, "you're barely anything, so I call you vestige, which is rude, but deal with it, and anyway you'll be running a lot of errands for me, so you'll be hearing me call you that a lot."

In the end, it's true, what you say: we don't know.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Even if we released Mannimarco's Coldharbour form, that doesn't equate to him being back on Nirn. I know we come and go from Coldharbour like it's just a day-trip to the beach, but canonically it's not supposed to be easy to get in or out. So though a disembodied, or soul-shriven, or whatever version of Mannimarco was on that slab, running free around Coldharbour isn't perhaps ideal, it's not a given that he could just pop on back to Nirn whenever he wanted. Also, did we know about Wormblood in the prologue when Vanny was kidnapped?
I'm sticking with the Great Mage's kidnap plan not being well-thought out.

But what event could make the Worm Cult resurface at all if not Mannimarco's return? If you knew nothing about the situation except for Worm cultists reappearing with some new magical device, who would you expect to be behind it? Mannimarco would honestly sound more probable than some random nephew we never heard of before.

In the prologue we were given to understand that Mezzamma was behind it. Basically, we went in not knowing what was going on, was surprised the Worm Cult was back, and found out enough to put Mezzamma in our sights. I believe I'm on record as saying (these forums are an official record, right? ) it doesn't make sense that the Worm Cult is back considering how thoroughly we dismantled them. Whatever sense it made or didn't make, though, all the npcs accepted it as a thing that was happening, with Mezzamma leading the charge. What our characters and the npcs knew at the time Vanny was kidnapped didn't lead at all towards Mannimarco or Wormblood: just that the Worm Cult was back with nefarious plans. If Vanny suspected Mannimarco was somehow behind it all, he never said so. I'm considering this all from the perspective of what Vanny knew according to the game and quest, not what we knew or suspected as a player. And though I can allow that Vanny's thoughts might have gone to Mannimarco being somehow involved, and he might have kept those thoughts to himself, I do not believe he expected that getting kidnapped would lead to a meeting with Mannimarco.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He didn't seem very concerned about it. He was probably glad to get into a younger body that hadn't been killed yet.

There must be some value in the original body, though, otherwise they wouldn't have gone into the whole trouble of getting the corpse, transporting it (including the heavy, bulky sarcophagus) - several times - , maybe magically restoring the body to an appropriate form before the ritual, etc. If it wasn't important, they might have just chosen a suitable younger body to summon the soul into from the very beginning.

I didn't say it wasn't important. Clearly, the way things were set up, the original plan was to put his soul back in his original body. But we messed with the plans and made it necessary for Mannimarco to take over the nearest suitable vessel. Maybe once he was in that vessel, he realized it was better than just suitable: young, spry, never went through death.

Or maybe he just didn't have the power in the moment to take his sarcophagus with him. He wasn't at full power, after all, and he scooted out of there pretty quickly. For all we know he's very concerned about getting it back and even now has minions trying to recover the sarcophagus. He didn't give us a lot to go on beyond threats of retribution.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't think skulls in and of themselves are edgy. It's the skulls along with the corpses, the dark colors and sharp edges, the blue lighting, and the dankness that remind me of someone trying really, really hard to come across as dark and foreboding. I'd be surprised if Mor Naril isn't as dark, and angular, and filled with bones as any other Molag Bal property.

I think what makes something edgy for me, generally speaking, is the feeling that the whole purpose of it is to to shocking or upsetting. Or just "anti" for the sake ot it - doing the exact opposite of the mainstream sentiment just because it's the opposite, out of the wish to be "special" or "not like everyone else". It's, in a way, glaring, unsubtle, too blatant.

Yes, that's basically the mantra of the edge lord.

Syldras wrote: »

But now I'm wondering what it's specifically about Coldharbor that invokes that sentiment for me. Because considering Molag Bal's attributes, it has to be dark, dreadful, and the statues of suffering bald men do make sense as a depiction (Random annotation: the relief with several of them tends to remind me of Auguste Rodin's sculpture "The Gates of Hell" for some reason I can't really decipher, because it doesn't really look that similar - but it somehow makes me think of it when ever I see those things in ESO). So it's not out of place.

I suppose it does fit with Molag Bal and it's just coincidence that all his decor aligns with human edge lord tendencies. To be clear, I don't mind the way Coldharbour looks and feels, because it's meant to be dismal and depressing and make us despair. It's dark and wretched and filled with gross things. It's just when the people of Nirn copy that aesthetic that I find it overused and a bit hokey.

Syldras wrote: »

And for some temple of necromancy, it would also be rather strange if there weren't any skulls and corpses around. Also, considering it's a ruin on a tropical island, with all its natural humidity, probably surrounded by jungle, it's most probably moldy and dark in there. But who knows. It would actually be interesting to see something that's not following the typical fantasy fiction necromancy trope for once - but in this case I truly doubt it, considering the name of the place alone.

For someplace that has been closed up/sealed off for centuries, I'd expect more ruins and decay than anything else. I wouldn't expect corpses and bones so much as piles of dust and crumbling masonry. Of course, I don't know exactly what they mean when they say "sealed off." Physically? Magically? Was there a force of some kind in there? A creature? Was the "dark evil" the knowledge of certain rituals or an actual inhabitant? (I know you don't have the answers; these are just the questions I have about the place.)

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder if they could pull off a change like that. I'm not against it, but they have set him up as a certain type of character, and a change like that might come across as abrupt.

It wouldn't be the first abrupt thing we've seen But, honestly, one that I'd truly appreciate. They also don't have to worry about contradictions based on people playing the content in a different order anymore - it's clear that this new story is taking place some time after the base game (and Mannimarco didn't show up anymore after that - well, except for the flashback, but that's from a time long ago anyway).

Another thing is we don't even know how much time passed since he died. And if we assume that Wormblood is/was not Soulshriven Mannimarco, we don't even know what Mannimarco's up to right now - he threathened us and ran away, and that's it - we have no clue what he might be thinking about what happened since his death. He might have changed his opinion on a few things while he was stuck in Coldharbor?

He might have, and maybe he did, but that really didn't come across in his, "I'll get my revenge for even the smallest slight" speech. I do like the aspect of this being an official sequel in the timeline, though, because that does free them up when it comes to the direction of the story.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But yes, that is an ending I could like. Only, what happens to Mannimarco at the end? We just let him go his way? Somehow I don't think that would fly with Vanny, or anyone.

We didn't care for the Companions' opinion either when we freed Mannimarco the first time.

Well, come on: they were all pretty easy to brush off. But the Great Mage? His disappointment would be worse.

Syldras wrote: »

But seriously, I'd like something nuanced, ambiguous in a way. Let's say there's some greater evil we fight together (Whether with some earlier agreement and a bit of planning beforehand, or sponteanously - it would also be interesting if he'd, for example, unexpectedly turn against Molag Bal in the end, and everyone is surprised and unsure what exactly is happening there and why) and in the end, at the great final, while things are still chaotic, Mannimarco just vanishes once more. We notice, but are too late to stop him. At best, Vanny could also make some remark that shows a vaguely positive sentiment, as if he's wondering whether he might have changed - something that indicates he wants to stop him, but not to lock him up, but to talk with him. But alas, he's already gone. Until we might meet him again, or not. Maybe there could even be a later notice, some letter or so, in which he explains his motivations, as a conclusion to the story. In any way, something that shifts him from "evil" to "morally grey" at latest at the story's end.

Then, of course, we can discuss how the cooperation should look like exactly. Honestly, I could imagine both: Either a surprising ending where Mannimarco turns against the big evil and saves us in the process - which leaves us baffled - and then flees; or some earlier contract, rather formally, where it's not really clear from the beginning either where his motives lie and whether we can actually trust him. That could also be interesting, if well-written. I'd be fine with both. I'm just not sure whether we'd ever see something like that, because it would very much break the usual formula of the stories we usually get.

I think I prefer the "unexpected ally in the moment" coupled with "runs off in the confusion afterwards" to any pre-meditated cooperation. Both could work, but my preferences are for the former, because I really can't see the npcs we're working with agreeing to work with Mannimarco.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's kind of what I worry about with returning characters these days: that they focus too much on only one aspect of their character/personality, and then we get a surfeit of that.

But they still create some very interesting characters, especially when it comes to companions. Think of Zerith-var's story - that was superb. I actually like most of the companions, except for Ember and Tanlorin, but that's a matter of character traits. They just have traits that I find horribly annoying. And when it comes to characters that aren't companions, I really liked the necromancer from Corelanya Manor for his interesting, unclichéd depiction. I'd like to see more characters written like that.

I agree they create very interesting characters still. I think the issues start to arise when the characters show up repeatedly. Companions are an interesting exception: I think a lot more care is put into their characterizations because the expectation is that we will have them with us a lot. Anyway, I also want more characters to get the same treatment Valendir did.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Probably not now that they're part of the Ebonheart Pact and there's no slavery allowed. But Dres never joined, so they're still doing all their hateful Dres things.

Oh, the Dres have joined (the only Great House that didn't join was Telvanni)! And the other members of the Ebonheart Pact are fine with them continuing the slave trade, with the exception they should not enslave people belonging to Pact nations. Whether they still do it secretly, is another thing, of course. But the official Pact stance is basically that if they just swap the Argonian slaves with Khajiit slaves, it's fine.

Also, the Hlaalu secretly keep slaves. I'm sure I've seen some in the Hlaalu manor in Ebonheart, and I also think in Davon's Watch. The Indoril (who also joined the Pact) also have an Argonian slave in Indoril Manor there.

Huh, all this time I thought Dres and Telvanni were the ones who didn't join. Oh well.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Surely the Prophet could have told us, said something more than, "you're barely anything, so I call you vestige, which is rude, but deal with it, and anyway you'll be running a lot of errands for me, so you'll be hearing me call you that a lot."

At least in German the term used is "Soulless One" or "Soul-Deprived One".

And honestly, I think he might exaggerate the urgency of us getting our soul back to use us for his own purposes. At least it might have been easier to "motivate" us this way than if he'd just told us "You've lost your soul, but that's okay, it doesn't really matter. Now just go and live on normally and do whatever you like".

That would have been kind of funny and totally unexpected.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In the prologue we were given to understand that Mezzamma was behind it. Basically, we went in not knowing what was going on, was surprised the Worm Cult was back, and found out enough to put Mezzamma in our sights. I believe I'm on record as saying (these forums are an official record, right? ) it doesn't make sense that the Worm Cult is back considering how thoroughly we dismantled them. Whatever sense it made or didn't make, though, all the npcs accepted it as a thing that was happening, with Mezzamma leading the charge. What our characters and the npcs knew at the time Vanny was kidnapped didn't lead at all towards Mannimarco or Wormblood: just that the Worm Cult was back with nefarious plans.

From the name alone it was already clear that Mezamma is a... whatever these things are called. Anyway, clearly a daedric being, and probably not that high-ranked. It made me wonder immediately why some random daedra snake woman thing would be not only interested in revitalizing the Worm Cult, but also been entrusted with leadership?! It all seemed strange to me and I'd think I wouldn't be the only person who'd expect someone else to be behind it - someone of higher rank (And probably a mortal, since - has any daedra ever led a cult of mortals in Tamriel? Why would they even be interested in that?), and Mezamma only following this person's orders.

Well, when we're following Mezamma's trail, she's using her ability to steal people's images, so for all we know she's some kind of talented mage. The name doesn't immediately give her away, since there are all sorts of names belonging to Tamriel people. I think the first time we know for sure she's a harvester is when we see Merric die. As far as her ranking goes, I don't know if there's a hard ceiling on that among daedra. (Granted, I never understood the connection between her and the Worm Cult--whether she was actually leading them, or following Molag Bal's orders concerning them, or what. It was never adequately explained how they got started up again and why they were working with daedra and why there'd be any connection between them and Molag Bal.) But based on what our characters and the npcs we were with saw, and knew, it wasn't at all clear that a mortal must be in charge of the cult again. The cult was just there. Mezamma was just there. There really was no reason for anyone, at that point, to think, "Hey, Mannimarco must be behind all this," without making some pretty big logical leaps.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And though I can allow that Vanny's thoughts might have gone to Mannimarco being somehow involved, and he might have kept those thoughts to himself, I do not believe he expected that getting kidnapped would lead to a meeting with Mannimarco.

You're underestimating the Great Mage!

Surely not! If anything, I overestimate him. I'm always thinking he can do more, and you're the one always dragging him.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I suppose it does fit with Molag Bal and it's just coincidence that all his decor aligns with human edge lord tendencies. To be clear, I don't mind the way Coldharbour looks and feels, because it's meant to be dismal and depressing and make us despair. It's dark and wretched and filled with gross things. It's just when the people of Nirn copy that aesthetic that I find it overused and a bit hokey.

The more I think about this, the more I believe it's also the limitation in terms of game graphics. It's often... well, not "actually" gruesome, but it looks like tacky plastic decorations, no? If I imagine, let's say, shelves filled with human skulls surrounded by dark stone (no matter if basalt, black marble, obsidian or what ever) in real life, it leaves a different impression than the depictions of Coldharbor do. Even if we'd add blue flames to the room (In real life, you'd have to add Selenium or Indium to the flame; although I personally prefer red or green flames ).

Some things are more gruesome than others. When we jump in the trash chute in Mannimarco's palace and fall down into that lake of corpses, that's pretty unsettling. More unsettling to me than the statues or wall decorations of bald men.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

For someplace that has been closed up/sealed off for centuries, I'd expect more ruins and decay than anything else. I wouldn't expect corpses and bones so much as piles of dust and crumbling masonry.

I think some kind of skeletal remains would make sense, if necromancers used that location. They certainly didn't clean up when leaving the place, and bones remain for a long time before they get porous and crumble, no matter the climate.

I suppose, if necromancers were doing the same things we see them doing today, there might be left-behind evidence of it in the form of bones or whatever. I don't think we know how long it had been abandoned, all told. The Corelanya who got secrets from it has a date, but I think it was abandoned for awhile by that point.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Of course, I don't know exactly what they mean when they say "sealed off." Physically? Magically?

That could also make a difference to how the place is preserved. Why did they even leave it, was it mentioned in the Corelanya lorebooks?

From what I recall, the Corelanya who went there was looking for knowledge, perhaps a way to conquer the island, and though she failed in subduing the populace, and was driven from the shores, she did take away secrets from Mor Naril. I think the sealing came later? After Corelanya settled on the island. I'd have to go back and read the books again.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, come on: they were all pretty easy to brush off. But the Great Mage? His disappointment would be worse.

It truly depends on the whole situation, and how and why Mannimarco gets to flee at the end. No matter the direction the story goes, I do not imagine the ending as Mannimarco being our prisoner and we let him go because, well, the great hero decides to. I mean, this might be exactly what we get, but there are many other ideas that would be more interesting.

No, I don't think we'll get to make the choice to let him go or not. I don't even know if he does go free at the end of this particular story.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I think I prefer the "unexpected ally in the moment" coupled with "runs off in the confusion afterwards" to any pre-meditated cooperation. Both could work, but my preferences are for the former, because I really can't see the npcs we're working with agreeing to work with Mannimarco.

Well, it must be constructed as a "We have no other choice" situation, of course. So even if everyone is sceptical, doesn't trust Mannimarco and assumes bad intentions, we'd still have to cooperate/interact with him. It would certainly lead to interesting discussions when ever we're coordinating our plans with him. Could be used well to give him more background lore and to put more emphasis on his change from "the baddie" to a slightly more neutral role. And of course we could actually talk to him a bit more - which wouldn't be possible in the other concept where he just helps us out of the blue at the big final and then vanishes.

I have a hard time imagining Mannimarco wanting to coordinate plans with us. Something about us all agreeing to work together because it's the best of a bad situation might work (though I still don't think Prince Azah would go for it, or Darien), but I just cannot imagine Mannimarco at the table with the big map, planning our advance with us. I feel like he would lay out a plan and expect us to follow it. Or he'd only talk to Vanny about anything. I really don't think he's in the mood to tolerate us at all.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Anyway, I also want more characters to get the same treatment Valendir did.

Valendir surprised me. He was so well-written, unclichéd, not exaggerated in his depiction, there were no moral judgements made at all, we weren't forced to lecture him about what he had done either. I had not expected that, especially not after the Sanguine quests that I had done before, and not in a chapter where the whole premise seems to be "necromancy = evil".

I had done that quest before I did most of the others, which made some of the other quests more of a let-down than anything else.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Huh, all this time I thought Dres and Telvanni were the ones who didn't join. Oh well.

And the only reason Telvanni didn't join was the general disinterest in pacting with anyone (or generally this "participating in general society" thing).

Yes, they do seem, as a house, to eschew those kinds of bonds/alliances. "House Telvanni stands alone" and all that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That would have been kind of funny and totally unexpected.

It's not how rpgs usually start.

No, but if it had, that would have set the stage for a different feeling for the game entirely. "Get your soul back, don't get it back: it'll all be fine!" I know that was never going to be the case, but it's giving me a good chuckle thinking about that alternate reality ESO.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, when we're following Mezamma's trail, she's using her ability to steal people's images, so for all we know she's some kind of talented mage. The name doesn't immediately give her away, since there are all sorts of names belonging to Tamriel people.

Oh, it's a typical daedric name. Daedra names are just as easy to recognize as most Nord, Dunmer, Voriplasm (Gob, Guup, Gloob,...) or Sload names Many daedric names have Zs in it (often double ZZs) and double-vocals are generally also common. Some of them have a somehow Mesopotamian feel to them (well, except for the Watcher/Watchling names, which have their own specifics and are often monosyllabic, leading to names like Ool, Kyf, Myx, Scruut, Cres and Xess). For example, when it comes to the typical z-heavy names, we have Screizzaz, Sulazz, Zyzazzil, Ozzai, Uzzai, Akuzzel, Krrazzak, Bruzzak, Irnizz,... And we also have -amma endings, like with Dekamma.

But do our characters and the npcs we were with know this? I'm looking at this from that perspective, not from my perspective as a player. Because, yes, to me the player, it seemed pretty clearly a daedric name, but since everyone was acting like it was just a name belonging to a powerful spell caster, that's how I was viewing it for this discussion. (And yes, I know your character would have known, because he's Telvanni and they know everything ) But it seemed to me no one we were working with made the connection. And I think some Khajiit names can come close to daedric-sounding at times.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Some things are more gruesome than others. When we jump in the trash chute in Mannimarco's palace and fall down into that lake of corpses, that's pretty unsettling. More unsettling to me than the statues or wall decorations of bald men.

I mean, it's a trash chute... What else would you expect to be thrown down the trash at that location? Daedra don't exactly eat much. And I found that situation more hygienically questionable than horrifying.

I didn't say it was unexpected. I said it was gruesome and unsettling. It's more effective at creating atmosphere than a row of skulls or a few statues.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

No, I don't think we'll get to make the choice to let him go or not. I don't even know if he does go free at the end of this particular story.

I'd like to see some explanation for why he's free again in Daggerfall, though.

A wizard did it.

I wonder if they would hint at that in some closing dialogue scene. Of course, it all depends on how it ends and I don't know which is more likely: he gets away or we imprison him.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I have a hard time imagining Mannimarco wanting to coordinate plans with us. Something about us all agreeing to work together because it's the best of a bad situation might work (though I still don't think Prince Azah would go for it, or Darien), but I just cannot imagine Mannimarco at the table with the big map, planning our advance with us. I feel like he would lay out a plan and expect us to follow it. Or he'd only talk to Vanny about anything. I really don't think he's in the mood to tolerate us at all.

The prince can complain all he wants, really.

And he probably will!

Syldras wrote: »

I'd love to see a bit of Mannimarco's rhetoric talent. He's a diplomat, he made arrangements with all kinds of nobles, and he surely didn't make those by giving them orders. He must be quite eloquent and convincing - if he wants to. Also, that would again help transitioning him to the character we saw in Daggerfall. Also, he killed us once, we killed him once - we're basically even with him now.

And yes, of course I'd like to see him interacting with Vanny.

I'd like to see that aspect of him, too. We've been told he's a successful diplomat (or read it in a lore book) but we've not yet seen that. But there's a difference between convincing powerful people to do what you want, and telling cultists what to do, and I'm pretty sure we've only seen the cultist leader side to him. I'm just not sure he would view us as important enough to use his eloquence on.

And you can try to tell him we're even now, so it's all cool, but he seemed to think otherwise.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I had done that quest before I did most of the others, which made some of the other quests more of a let-down than anything else.

I find it astounding that the appreciation of different quests from one single release can differ so much, and in a scope that isn't explainable by personal taste alone. Of course I've experienced in other chapters too that there was one quest or so that I didn't enjoy as much as the others - and that might have been related to not finding the topic too interesting or disliking a certain character. But I'd say the writing of all side quests was usually on more or less the same level, and in the same style and tone, even if some might have been more serious and other a bit more funny. But now this time, it you compare, for example, the quests of Corelanya Manor, the Sanguine overland carnival and the Li-Xal pass quest from the main questline - you have the impression they're from different games.

They do rather run the gamut of style, don't they? But I know from these forums that some people really enjoyed the Sanguine content, and some people didn't like Corelanya Manor, and some people really enjoyed the main quest. Something for everyone, I suppose, is what it comes down to.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, they do seem, as a house, to eschew those kinds of bonds/alliances. "House Telvanni stands alone" and all that.

It's a reasonable decision.

I don't have any quarrel with it, even though I might note that for a House that stands alone, they sure do depend on me for quite a lot of support.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

No, but if it had, that would have set the stage for a different feeling for the game entirely. "Get your soul back, don't get it back: it'll all be fine!" I know that was never going to be the case, but it's giving me a good chuckle thinking about that alternate reality ESO.

Then again, isn't the game's motto "Do whatever you want?" now?

If only! The quests that would have gone differently if I really could do whatever I want....

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But do our characters and the npcs we were with know this? I'm looking at this from that perspective, not from my perspective as a player. Because, yes, to me the player, it seemed pretty clearly a daedric name, but since everyone was acting like it was just a name belonging to a powerful spell caster, that's how I was viewing it for this discussion. (And yes, I know your character would have known, because he's Telvanni and they know everything ) But it seemed to me no one we were working with made the connection.

Well, most of all I knew it because I fought all (or almost all) of those named daedra I listed above. I was astonished no one else from our circus troupe got that idea (even if there was a tiny chance left it might be a Khajiit or Argonian instead, one could have at least concluded it might probably be a daedric name).

There was surprisingly little discussion about it overall, despite information being repeated by Skordo. Guess we were in too much of a rush to catch up to the Worm Cult to really ponder things.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I didn't say it was unexpected. I said it was gruesome and unsettling.

Unhygienic

Sure, that too. It can be more than one thing.

You know, if we allow the idea that the player character bodies are formed from chaotic creatia after Mannimarco killed us, took our soul, and tossed the original bodies aside, then that's probably what all those bodies down the trash chute were. You might well have been swimming in a lake with your own corpse.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's more effective at creating atmosphere than a row of skulls or a few statues.

Certainly. Or those round Molag Bal reliefs that are usually placed on the ground and always remind me of sewer lids. In touristy places they sometimes depict some art on them.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-furnishing-Seal_of_Molag_Bal.jpg

It does look like a sewer lid, hah. You know, some Molag Bal relief or whatever showed up in my furnishings at one point recently. It looked kind of like that image, but not exactly. I could not remember where it came from or why I had it. I think it might have been something from a golden pursuit or maybe a daily log in reward. It's not something I would have ever purchased. Well, it went the way of that Molag Bal statue we got from one of the golden pursuits. Which is to say, into the void.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

A wizard did it.

Then I want to be that wizard.

I'm sure you will be!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder if they would hint at that in some closing dialogue scene. Of course, it all depends on how it ends and I don't know which is more likely: he gets away or we imprison him.

If Wormblood is Soulshriven Mannimarco and we get to move his soul into his original body somehow, we have two Mannimarcos, and then we can do both

lol!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'd like to see that aspect of him, too. We've been told he's a successful diplomat (or read it in a lore book) but we've not yet seen that. But there's a difference between convincing powerful people to do what you want, and telling cultists what to do, and I'm pretty sure we've only seen the cultist leader side to him. I'm just not sure he would view us as important enough to use his eloquence on.

Maybe not the player character, but that's what we have Vanny for. I hope he'll still be alive enough then to join our discussion.

I also truly want to see both of them interact with each other.

That would be ideal, at least from my perspective. Well, here's hoping!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They do rather run the gamut of style, don't they? But I know from these forums that some people really enjoyed the Sanguine content, and some people didn't like Corelanya Manor, and some people really enjoyed the main quest. Something for everyone, I suppose, is what it comes down to.

Yes, I've seen a few posts where people said they enjoyed the Sanguine quests - and I'm not going to criticize anyone for their taste or opinion, everyone is entitled to their own, and that's fine. But there's one thing I noticed: It seemed the majority of people who really enjoyed the Sanguine quests were people who aren't very familiar with TES lore. And honestly, if the story wouldn't have been about Sanguine, or if we knew nothing about Sanguine before, the quest at the carnival in the North wouldn't have been that bad. It was a longer quest, it had some humour, there was a variety of different things to do - without the Sanguine background, I wouldn't have been bothered so much by it. The problem is that if you know Sanguine lore, it absolutely doesn't fit. I'd be curious to learn whether there was someone with big interest in TES lore who did enjoy that quest - and the reasoning behind that. Maybe I could understand it. But so far I had the impression that there's a clear divide and lore-interested people rather don't like that quest, because it's very much contradicting older established lore.

And to be honest, I do think that whether some newer writing breaks established lore isn't just something that can be seen as a question of taste, but it's indeed a question of quality. Lore mistakes are mistakes, and I'd think there has to be some quality control to spot and remove them before a quest goes live. Oversights may happen, but that these seem to happen more often recently - I'm concerned by that.

I wonder if they thought it did fit with the lore, though. I didn't like the carnival quest because of coy goat, and the lack of motivation for the villain--or at least, the lack of background for who she was or why she was doing it. The corrupt a wish aspect of it was interesting enough, but seemed more in Clavicus Vile's domain. So if we had learned the Lady was a Vile devotee and trying to mimic him (regardless of whether or not she was doing it well), that would have at least made a little more sense to me. Anyway, if it was an oversight, it's quite an oversight; but if it's considered lore-appropriate, that changes what we've seen about Sanguine in the past. (Though, actually, it kind of fits his Skyrim appearance.)

I do agree with you that lore-breaking quests are a concern. What I'm not sure of is whether or not these quests are considered lore-breaking by the people in charge of the lore.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't have any quarrel with it, even though I might note that for a House that stands alone, they sure do depend on me for quite a lot of support.

They have better things to do, so they let outsiders take care of the mundane tasks

I don't think they do. I've never seen them do anything, really. Well, that's not true. Revus is out and about, doing things. Divayth gets around. The others? They just kind of...stand around and act snotty.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If only! The quests that would have gone differently if I really could do whatever I want....

At times I get the feeling that the game isn't much more than a device giving me ideas or cues for my own imaginations. So, yes.

It does inspire me to write stories for my characters, which I find fun.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

There was surprisingly little discussion about it overall, despite information being repeated by Skordo. Guess we were in too much of a rush to catch up to the Worm Cult to really ponder things.

To me, there was generally something dissonant about the pace of the whole story (and it was even more extreme in the prologue). It was generally no bad story, but it all happened so fast, it was too much different things happening in a short time.

In the prologue it led to that strange emotional chaos with the npcs - they were mourning for three seconds, then there was something funny, then there was something bad again 5 minutes later, and then they were positive again,... No feeling comes across as convincing if it doesn't have room to last for a while. It would have worked better if they had stretched that a bit over a longer story.

And I also think the Western Solstice main quest would have been even a bit better if it had been longer - so you could have gone more into detail with a few things and give more background lore and have us actually experience the locations in more detail, too. I want to be honest: Even if I found the story entertaining, the fact that it were only 5 quests and they were all rather short (What did we say? A total play time of maybe 3 to 4 hours from the first quest to the final?) was disappointing to me. Of course I'm aware it's only half of the story and there will be more in October, and if it will have the same length, then 10 quests for the main quest line looks fine, and 6 to 8 hours playtime might also be okay - but it doesn't really help if the content is split and you have to stop in the middle. For people who play the content later and who don't have the waiting time inbetween it might be a better experience, but the way it's now makes it feel like it's extremely short and rushed through.

It generally feels a little strange to run through that story so fast, and then there's a gap of 4,5 months because we have to "wait for the troops to arrive".

Yeah, this time gap feels more awkward the longer it lasts. Especially because we aren't doing anything right now to try to combat the worm cult. Not even a piddly daily where we go out and murder some of them. We're kind of just hanging out, maybe thinking about what Mannimarco is up to; maybe not. We're not even trying to plan a rescue of Vanny. And we're called heroes...*sigh*

I do wonder if the frenetic pace of both the prologue and the first half of the main quest did it more disservice than anything else. I'm pretty sure they were going for a sense of urgency (no time to mourn, we have to catch these cultists!) and that could have worked, but then we never really came back to the emotional parts. Honestly, the whole thing really might hang together better if played later without this really long gap. I don't know how they're going to handle the whole Wall bit for people who do this content long after the Wall is officially brought down, but there surely won't be months for them to wait.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Sure, that too. It can be more than one thing.

I'm saying I didn't find it unsettling. It was disgusting because it was uncleanly, the behavior inself can certainly be seen as gruesome, but to be unsettling, something has to be unexpected for me. And this was as little unexpected as finding graves on a cemetery.

Well, I can be unsettled even by the expected. After all, I expected disgusting and gruesome things in Coldharbour and Mannimarco's place, and was still unsettled by them.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You know, if we allow the idea that the player character bodies are formed from chaotic creatia after Mannimarco killed us, took our soul, and tossed the original bodies aside, then that's probably what all those bodies down the trash chute were.

Nah, we lost our body before arriving in Coldharbour - the sacrifice is supposed to take place somewhere on Nirn, so the original body must be disposed of somewhere there.

Not to be confrontational, but where is that stated? (I honestly want to know if it's officially said or written anywhere in game). I know we wake up dead in a cell in Coldharbour (also don't know why we're in a cell--being soul-shriven isn't enough, we also have to be a prisoner?), but how we got there was not clear. I know if you skip the tutorial and go the hooded stranger route, you get that little scene of being brought before Mannimarco in chains along with a bunch of others, but it's not clear where that is.

Syldras wrote: »

What we saw down the trash chute also clearly looked like Soulshriven bodies. Soulshriven might be able to "resurrect" (after "dying" from overexertion, accidents, torture, etc), but if it's the same thing as with any daedra, they won't need their last body for that, but the new one will form from new chaotic creatia or energy or how ever to call it. So what we saw was probably where they dispose of the last fatally damaged body, and who knows, maybe in that water they'll just dissolve after a while, merging with the Waters of Oblivion - to materialize into anything made of chaotic creatia once more (be it a new Soulshriven Body, a daedra's body, part of the landscape of the realm, that blue glowing water,... it's all chaotic creatia). In a way it's a recycling pit.

If that was the case, I would have expected to see the bodies in various stages of decay or reabsorption.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It does look like a sewer lid, hah. You know, some Molag Bal relief or whatever showed up in my furnishings at one point recently. It looked kind of like that image, but not exactly. I could not remember where it came from or why I had it. I think it might have been something from a golden pursuit or maybe a daily log in reward. It's not something I would have ever purchased. Well, it went the way of that Molag Bal statue we got from one of the golden pursuits. Which is to say, into the void.

I think it might have been a login reward, but I can't remember for sure. I usually do keep these items, even if at first look they don't appeal to me or I can't think of a use for them - I might come up with a good use later. Sometimes a use likely not intended, like flipping the whole thing and using the backside of it, or combining it with other items so much that you can't even recognize anymore what it initially was. So far, I found a use for everything at some point.

I'm confident I won't ever want images of Molag Bal in any of my homes. That statue was so big, too.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That would be ideal, at least from my perspective. Well, here's hoping!

The question is whether the person writing the story can even still remember that they were friends back in their youth. I sometimes fear that certain lore bits might just be forgotten (or omitted on purpose?), which then leads to those clichéd, unnuanced, one-note characterizations we've seen with characters like Jakarn later. Then, Mannimarco will never be more than the "evil cult leader" and we'll never see his diplomat (or any other) side of him. And Vanny will not be sentimental about their shared past at all. Well, probably also not more than the "annoying haughty wizard" anyway. And that would be sad because both characters have so much potential and such an interesting lore background.

It'd be really hard to forget they were once friends, I think. I mean, there is a lore master who works with the writers, right? I hope for an important quest (which the main quest should be considered) they'd do appropriate research before writing it.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I wonder if they thought it did fit with the lore, though. I didn't like the carnival quest because of coy goat, and the lack of motivation for the villain--or at least, the lack of background for who she was or why she was doing it. The corrupt a wish aspect of it was interesting enough, but seemed more in Clavicus Vile's domain. So if we had learned the Lady was a Vile devotee and trying to mimic him (regardless of whether or not she was doing it well), that would have at least made a little more sense to me. Anyway, if it was an oversight, it's quite an oversight; but if it's considered lore-appropriate, that changes what we've seen about Sanguine in the past. (Though, actually, it kind of fits his Skyrim appearance.)
I do agree with you that lore-breaking quests are a concern. What I'm not sure of is whether or not these quests are considered lore-breaking by the people in charge of the lore.

Sanguine's depiction there surely differs a lot from what we read about him in lorebooks so far. Most of all I'm bothered by how tame it all is, while what we actually should see according to lore are immoral and sometimes completely perverse debaucheries (that I couldn't even mention here on the forum; not expecting to explicitly see that in game, of course, but at least allusions would have been possible) - and that surely doesn't mean people dancing a bit or eating cheese! That's why I'm saying if it was just some "magic carnival" story, within TES or outside a TES game, it would have been fine with me. But for a Sanguine quest? For what it's supposed to be, it disappointed me.

I know his depiction differs a lot from what we read about him in lore books; I'm not saying it doesn't seem inconsistent to us. What I wonder is whether the people in charge of the lore think it fits, either because they have a broader knowledge of Sanguine's lore than we do, or because they decided to add to it, and then use that part of it for the quests. ZOS has always been pretty clear that the lore books we encounter on Nirn are from the fictional author's perspective and not necessarily the full truth. So what if the game writers/lore creators decided there was another aspect to Sanguine that isn't so dark and perverse?

I'm not saying I agree with a possible addition to Sanguine lore, or that it's definitely the case; I'm just wondering why a depiction of Sanguine in game at this point would look different from what the in game lore books have said about him. Do the creators of the game and the lore feel like it works?

Syldras wrote: »

Also, if they had wanted to make it related to a daedric prince somehow, Sheogorath or Clavicus Vile would have been a much better choice. I also believed the Lady to be a Clavicus worshipper and I guess if we had gotten something like that as the quest's conclusion, that would also have been an improvement to the whole thing.

I would have preferred Clavicus Vile related shenanigans. I really don't care for Sheogorath, and I've seen enough of him in game already to last me several lifetimes.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't think they do. I've never seen them do anything, really. Well, that's not true. Revus is out and about, doing things. Divayth gets around. The others? They just kind of...stand around and act snotty.

If they're in their towers doing experiments and research all day, and maybe only go outside once every few weeks because they get all their shopping done by servants, how would you ever know what they're doing or not doing?

I have my ways.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It does inspire me to write stories for my characters, which I find fun.

It's indeed fun, but sometimes I'd like to actually play the things more or less the way I imagine them So I really hope for more different choices in quests in the future. I'm aware of course that there might never be the "perfect" choice (being just the way we'd imagine our character would do things), more variety and more options are always appreciated.

Indeed! That's why I'm a fan of the new player response system and hope they keep building on it and making it more robust.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, this time gap feels more awkward the longer it lasts. Especially because we aren't doing anything right now to try to combat the worm cult. Not even a piddly daily where we go out and murder some of them. We're kind of just hanging out, maybe thinking about what Mannimarco is up to; maybe not. We're not even trying to plan a rescue of Vanny. And we're called heroes...*sigh*

A daily quest would have been a good solution. Wasn't it like that with Murkmire? Didn't the prologue unlock a daily repeatable quest where we could do something to help preparing the expedition?

Murkmire did that, as did Northern Elsweyr. I can't think of any other prologues that did it. In this case, it wouldn't have been tied to a prologue, but the main body of the quest, which is usually where quests for things like Summerset's geysers come in (though that one opens up part-way through the main quest, not at the end of it). At any rate, it would have been nice to have a little something to do to bridge the time gap.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I do wonder if the frenetic pace of both the prologue and the first half of the main quest did it more disservice than anything else. I'm pretty sure they were going for a sense of urgency (no time to mourn, we have to catch these cultists!) and that could have worked, but then we never really came back to the emotional parts.

To me it also felt like there was a focus on... Action! Effects! Explosions! instead of giving the atmosphere the appropriate time to develop and have an effect on the player.

Makes the waiting time we have now feel even stranger.

Very true. I sometimes feel like there's something I should be doing on Solstice, but there isn't.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Honestly, the whole thing really might hang together better if played later without this really long gap. I don't know how they're going to handle the whole Wall bit for people who do this content long after the Wall is officially brought down, but there surely won't be months for them to wait.

I read there will be a quest replacing the Wall event. So probably something where you have to kill some special enemy or steal an artifact or whatever, which then deactivates the Wall. Basically something which won't require any waiting time at all.

Well, any future characters that run this quest arc will benefit from that, at least.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Not to be confrontational, but where is that stated? (I honestly want to know if it's officially said or written anywhere in game). I know we wake up dead in a cell in Coldharbour (also don't know why we're in a cell--being soul-shriven isn't enough, we also have to be a prisoner?), but how we got there was not clear. I know if you skip the tutorial and go the hooded stranger route, you get that little scene of being brought before Mannimarco in chains along with a bunch of others, but it's not clear where that is.

The sacrifice cutscene looks like it's taking place in some castle basement or dungeon in Tamriel, no Coldharbor atmosphere at all. Also there's dialogue (By the Prophet, I think? Or was it Lyris? Maybe also some loading screen text?) that says you've been sacrified and suddenly woke up in Coldharbor after your death. The way it's worded sounds like you haven't been at that location before your "rebirth".

I mean, once someone tells you that you were sacrificed and woke up from death, it's not too much of a leap to think you might still be in your own body. It's hardly more strange than anything else going on.

Syldras wrote: »

And - I just found this thing which is really interesting:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Chaotic_Creatia:_The_Azure_Plasm
It doesn't only answer the question of location...
"Then there are the poor slaves known as the Soul Shriven. Each is a mortal kidnapped from Mundus at the moment of death"
...it also explains the soul problem we had been discussing. So indeed our soul has also been replaced with that thing the daedra have for a "soul" - basically copied just as our body is a copy made from chaotic creatia. We're playing a full copy - our mortal soul is... well, you've seen it when we collect it at the end of the questline; and our mortal body was left to rot somewhere in Tamriel (and I still want to find it and collect the bones, at least - seriously!).

As for why we're in a prison cell: Well...

Ah, so we're paragons! Not going to let that bit get spread around the gossip channels of Tamriel, though; everyone already expects too much of me. If they knew I was generated by the Heart of Nirn, they'd never stop bugging me to do this and do that! That is an interesting book--good find! Of course the paragon bit is only theoretical, even by that book, but it would explain why we don't have those weird desiccated faces and bodies that other soul-shriven do.

However, my explanation is going to remain the same: my characters are in their original bodies.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If that was the case, I would have expected to see the bodies in various stages of decay or reabsorption.

I think that's more a graphics/asset thing; we also meet a Bosmer somewhere in the Dominion zones who says he lost a leg (or foot?) by some gruesome accident, but we can clearly see he still has both.

Or he was making the whole thing up for sympathy, and thought you might not notice he still had all his limbs.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm confident I won't ever want images of Molag Bal in any of my homes. That statue was so big, too.

It might be possible to turn it upside down and sink the statue itself into the group and use the rest as a pedestral

But I would know it was there...also, too much work.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It'd be really hard to forget they were once friends, I think. I mean, there is a lore master who works with the writers, right? I hope for an important quest (which the main quest should be considered) they'd do appropriate research before writing it.

Back in the early years I wouldn't have had any concerns at all. But since about High Isle - ...and that's the saddest thing about it, the lack of trust after how the last few years had been.

I'm optimistic about it, though someone once did call me a foolish optimist on the WoW forums for my failure to buy into the doom and gloom they were always going on about over there. I trust ZOS to keep releasing new content; I hope I find the content enjoyable. Sometimes I'm disappointed; sometimes I'm not.

I do understand your concerns, though. And just in case it needs to be said: no, I'm not accusing you of having a doom and gloom stance.