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The writing for the upcoming story content - some thoughts on the latest news article
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metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Considering how much I don't know about Pyandonea and Maomer culture, the whole zone could be a rich discovery of it all for me. I think it could be a great way to give us more (and good) lore about the Maomer if the inciting incident that gets us there is plausible enough (particularly for Altmer and, to a lesser extent, Aldmeri Dominion members). They've done these kind of stories before, and done them well. People love Wrothgar and Murkmire for their localized stories and racial lore.
If done well, it would be a wonderful addition to TES lore as a whole. I'm a little sceptical right now though how creative they'd actually get, and whether they might follow real world morals too much when writing said lore - as in avoiding "unsavory" topics altogether, or the opposite, having a very clichéd approach where negative traditions (from a modern real world perspective) are excessively used as markers for a character (or a group of characters) being "the evil ones". Like making the average town Maormer friendly, open to other cultures, tolerant and strongly believing in individual freedom - but the evil baddie Lord on the other side of the hill is intolerant and owns slaves, because he's The Evil Guy! Even if the Maormer's cultural stance actually wouldn't have to abide real world morals at all. The average person could be very sceptical towards outsiders, or could find slavery normal (Many of them are pirates, maybe the slave trade is part of their culture since centuries? Not even sure whether there's already something like that in lore). I truly see the risk that they don't want to show us an actually morally foreign culture anymore, but would sanitize it from negative aspects first or completely model it according to today's real world morals. We've seen it in other stories already, after all, with the West Weald Bosmer not participating in cannibalism or the weird family friendly Sanguine worship on Solstice.
I agree that the lore for Pyandonea (in this hypothetical where that's where we go questing) needs to remain appropriate to Nirn. So if there's evil arising in their land, it should be what Maomer culture believes to be evil, and not what our modern world considers evil. And then of course allowing for the idea that not every Maomer views everything the same way. We actually got some of that with the Maomer on Solstice--I'm thinking of the lounging woodworker in the crafting hub particularly; I believe he has some lines about why he likes Solstice and doesn't hate us (I was on my Altmer talking to him, so it felt germane to the situation). And, yes, I do share the concern that we'd get the sanitized version of Pyandonea if we ever went there.The Scholarium quests and lore do have a different feel/vibe to them from the usual that we get in Elder Scrolls. For a place lost to time and intentionally hidden to keep the luminaries out of Sheogorath's grip, I think it worked for that kind of other-worldly (or out of time) feeling. The whole was very much a fable--the luminary stories are even called such directly--and had a different kind of magical feeling to it than we're used to. I think it pretty well represented the different way that Ulfsild approached magic compared to Shalidor.
That's true, for what it was supposed to be, it fit. A different question, to me, is how this all fits into the lore of Mundus that we knew so far. And whether it's truly what appeals to the average player and their expectations.
I wonder if it's not meant to fit in overall; if it really is meant to be kind of out of place/time. Or if, now that scribing has been "rediscovered" and the mages guild is spreading the word, it it's intended that it morphs into what becomes spell crafting in the later games. It would be interesting to see it incorporated more into the lore of Mundus. Do the luminaries have more of a part to play going forward? Or is it really just a very contained once-and-done type of content?I think we're meant to take his feelings about the Worm Cult and Mannimarco at face value, but that's hard to do once you've seen the flashbacks in the Traitor's Vault.
It being more than just 100% hatred would certainly be the more interesting option for a story. That's exactly the ambiguity I'd like to see in a narration for adults, and not a stereotyped and very clear siding of "the good guys" and "the bad guys". Especially considering the depth of TES lore that already exists in the background, the clichéd stories always feel like wasted potential, which is sad. Because so much more would be possible. Think about the things at play between pre-Tribunal Almalexia, Sil and Vivec, Nerevar and Voryn Dagoth. That's so much more interesting than "evil guy does evil things for evil's sake and the good heroes will stop him".
I do think the stories where there's no clear black or white, or the antagonist isn't "evil" are more interesting as well. They certainly give you more to think about. I would prefer it if Vanny's feelings about Mannimarco weren't presented in so cut and dried a fashion. We don't (and may never) know the official depth of their friendship, but what we've seen of it did show that they were more than just two students/scholars present at the same time on Artaeum. So we've seen him on good terms with Mannimarco; and we've heard him talk about how much he hates necromancers and the Worm Cult. Friends to enemies with nothing in between. I suppose that can happen. But it would be nice to see, in some manner, how Vanny went from friendly to hating.It would be a nice change, and an interesting exploration. Vanny's a complex character and he deserves more complex storylines than he's been given. Or I should say, he should have more interesting things to say to us than he usually does. His general bombastic air can be amusing, but it is one-note.
Same for Mannimarco. So much potential to show both of them beyond a one-note stereotype. That's the thing that makes characters interesting: If there's more to them than just a clearly defined role for some self-contained story. It's funny actually; the news article I linked emphasizes how important Mannimarco is as a character for TES as a whole, and how he appears over the centuries, in different TES games - you'd think if he's so important, the players would learn more about him as a person, about his background, than just "yeah, that's the evil guy"? We got a glimpse on more on Artaeum, but at that point, it somehow stopped. I mean, yes, he didn't return anywhere since then, but now that he does, I would have been interested to see some more background lore to him.
So would I, and I still hope, since the story isn't over yet, we get something more. (I've really got to stop heaping all these hopes on part two!)
Lol...like in that link you shared about that book that came with the collector's edition. The updated Emperor's Guide to Tamriel, where the guy made a note that he needed to draw Mannimarco meaner. (I think it was something like that).Lol...well, the path to ultimate power is a long one, and apparently there are a few setbacks along the way. In Oblivion, is he considered to be at the top of his game, or has he fallen somewhat from where he had been, power and influence wise?
In Oblivion, he lives in a cave and can't even afford shoes anymore.
Ok, so that's definitely post-ascension. Maybe even post-fall. A cave? Poor Mannimarco.Isn't Daggerfall Mannimarco purely lich?
Well, all we see is some glowy-eyed figure beneath a hooded robe. What's beneath? I don't know. Didn't try to undress him. It might have been interesting (For science!), but I think wrestling down the friendly necromancer next door and tearing down his 1980's fantasy illustration cultist robe to reveal his true form might be a little inappropriate. And embarrassing, in case he turns out not to be a lich. And in any case, he'd probably not be willing to give you any quests anymore after that.
I still think you should have risked it. For knowledge!Makes me wonder how he lost his Wormblood body and if we get to see any of that lich transformation in ESO.
Who knows, maybe his Daggerfall body indeed is Wormblood's. Wormblood is said to have glowing eyes (even if I can't remember seing any of that in ESO) and there are rumours about him possibly being a lich (although of course that doesn't say much, since lichs can exist in all states of decay, including the non-decayed alive looking form). I mean, we don't see much of Wormblood with him wearing his mask and all that. And we never saw much of Daggerfall Mannimarco beneath his robe either. The glowing eyes could be a link that maybe Wormblood's form is indeed the ESO interpretation of what we saw in Daggerfall with those very incomplex graphics back then.
If his Daggerfall body is Wormblood, that doesn't bode well for Wormblood having any more importance in the Solstice story. Did we even see Wormblood in person? I mean up close? We were up on the bell ringing platform when he came to meet Gabrielle, and mostly just saw his back. When we spoke to his projection, hard to tell if his eyes glowed or not. Seems like they kept him at a distance from us for the most part. Even in the Colored Rooms, we didn't get too close to him. Ah, well. All will be revealed in time (maybe).0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And then of course allowing for the idea that not every Maomer views everything the same way. We actually got some of that with the Maomer on Solstice--I'm thinking of the lounging woodworker in the crafting hub particularly; I believe he has some lines about why he likes Solstice and doesn't hate us (I was on my Altmer talking to him, so it felt germane to the situation).
We had a bit more of that in earlier chapters, didn't we? Where npcs would randomly comment on what ever you did in quests, including some obviously siding with the "baddie" we had to defeat. I can remember an Altmer proclaiming that Naemon should have become king, for example. Now I don't see much dissent anymore. I mean, most people on Solstice don't say anything anymore anyway, but we already discussed that.I wonder if it's not meant to fit in overall; if it really is meant to be kind of out of place/time. Or if, now that scribing has been "rediscovered" and the mages guild is spreading the word, it it's intended that it morphs into what becomes spell crafting in the later games. It would be interesting to see it incorporated more into the lore of Mundus. Do the luminaries have more of a part to play going forward? Or is it really just a very contained once-and-done type of content?
Honestly I believe we'll probably never hear anything of them ever again.We don't (and may never) know the official depth of their friendship, but what we've seen of it did show that they were more than just two students/scholars present at the same time on Artaeum. So we've seen him on good terms with Mannimarco; and we've heard him talk about how much he hates necromancers and the Worm Cult. Friends to enemies with nothing in between. I suppose that can happen. But it would be nice to see, in some manner, how Vanny went from friendly to hating.
It all looks rather extreme to me. And unnuanced, absolute. Is that believable, especially for Vanny? We know he had a gentler side, and that he probably contemplated a lot of things. I might be wrong, but I have experienced it to be more common for people who don't think much to fall into extremes.
And remember how hard it was for him even to report Mannimarco to Iachesis. He didn't want to. He tried hard to bring Mannimarco to reason somehow. Who knows for how long he actually struggled with Mannimarco's secret experiments until he finally managed to inform Iachesis about them. Of course, in that one autobiography, he claims that he did it immediately - dutiful, morally correct, of course. But we know from the Artaeum flashbacks that that was not the truth. I'd like to see more of that - that he isn't actually that true to that morally correct and righteous facade he's always trying to uphold.Lol...like in that link you shared about that book that came with the collector's edition. The updated Emperor's Guide to Tamriel, where the guy made a note that he needed to draw Mannimarco meaner. (I think it was something like that).
I mean, from my point of view, he really doesn't look scary.
Not that he looks any scarier if he gives us that look from the new picture, of course.Ok, so that's definitely post-ascension. Maybe even post-fall. A cave? Poor Mannimarco.
In Daggerfall he already lives in a barrow where there's, well, actually nothing except for his white coffin, but maybe that can be attributed to the graphics. What a change; at the beginning of ESO he still had a castle, and later he basically lives like a hobo (I hope that's the colloquial English word for it, I don't mean it as an insult). But yes, definitely a path of ascension. He's the hobo king and later he becomes the hobo god, after all.I still think you should have risked it. For knowledge!
But what if the only thing that had been revealed would have been a very old Altmer wizard? Can't treat the elderly like that!Did we even see Wormblood in person? I mean up close? We were up on the bell ringing platform when he came to meet Gabrielle, and mostly just saw his back. When we spoke to his projection, hard to tell if his eyes glowed or not. Seems like they kept him at a distance from us for the most part. Even in the Colored Rooms, we didn't get too close to him.
Yes, we've always been kept a distance away from him, and certainly on purpose (I expect some kind of "dramatic reveal" for Part 2). In loading screen concept art he certainly has glowy eyes that are very noticeable. I just checked my screenshots, indeed the only situation where we're a little closer to him, the view of his face is blocked. By Razum-dar sitting on his chest, pinning him down. Or at least it looked like that, not sure what that strange choreography was supposed to portray
Or wait, I just found this:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-npc-Wormblood_02.jpg
Maybe he only glows from his eyes when he's bored or something. Or it might be his favorite pastime (Second place: Standing around doing nothing - that was a very common hobby for the people in Daggerfall).Ah, well. All will be revealed in time (maybe).
I hope he'll take off that mask and doesn't just keep it on from now on. That would be even more disappointing than him being ugly! Although there are very ugly liches of course. If Vanny is completely appalled the next time we see him, we might know the answer!@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭And then of course allowing for the idea that not every Maomer views everything the same way. We actually got some of that with the Maomer on Solstice--I'm thinking of the lounging woodworker in the crafting hub particularly; I believe he has some lines about why he likes Solstice and doesn't hate us (I was on my Altmer talking to him, so it felt germane to the situation).
We had a bit more of that in earlier chapters, didn't we? Where npcs would randomly comment on what ever you did in quests, including some obviously siding with the "baddie" we had to defeat. I can remember an Altmer proclaiming that Naemon should have become king, for example. Now I don't see much dissent anymore. I mean, most people on Solstice don't say anything anymore anyway, but we already discussed that.
Yeah, those proximity comments used to be a mixed bag of positive and negative. That was nice; made it seem like the people of Tamriel had their own opinions. The woodworking Maomer in Sunport had interactable dialogue, like all the crafting people do. I just thought his was more interesting than the usual we get from static npcs.I wonder if it's not meant to fit in overall; if it really is meant to be kind of out of place/time. Or if, now that scribing has been "rediscovered" and the mages guild is spreading the word, it it's intended that it morphs into what becomes spell crafting in the later games. It would be interesting to see it incorporated more into the lore of Mundus. Do the luminaries have more of a part to play going forward? Or is it really just a very contained once-and-done type of content?
Honestly I believe we'll probably never hear anything of them ever again.
Probably not. Seems like a wasted mythos, though.We don't (and may never) know the official depth of their friendship, but what we've seen of it did show that they were more than just two students/scholars present at the same time on Artaeum. So we've seen him on good terms with Mannimarco; and we've heard him talk about how much he hates necromancers and the Worm Cult. Friends to enemies with nothing in between. I suppose that can happen. But it would be nice to see, in some manner, how Vanny went from friendly to hating.
It all looks rather extreme to me. And unnuanced, absolute. Is that believable, especially for Vanny? We know he had a gentler side, and that he probably contemplated a lot of things. I might be wrong, but I have experienced it to be more common for people who don't think much to fall into extremes.
And remember how hard it was for him even to report Mannimarco to Iachesis. He didn't want to. He tried hard to bring Mannimarco to reason somehow. Who knows for how long he actually struggled with Mannimarco's secret experiments until he finally managed to inform Iachesis about them. Of course, in that one autobiography, he claims that he did it immediately - dutiful, morally correct, of course. But we know from the Artaeum flashbacks that that was not the truth. I'd like to see more of that - that he isn't actually that true to that morally correct and righteous facade he's always trying to uphold.
I didn't say I liked it or found it believable; just that's what we get. I don't think you're wrong--people who don't tend to introspection or thinking things over are more likely to adhere to such extremes. And that definitely doesn't fit Vanny.
From what I know of Vanny, it seems like he would have struggled with such feelings. What that struggle would look like, I don't know. He's quite reserved when we interact with him. His public persona and writings all convey that clear hatred of necromancy in general and the Worm Cult in particular. Did he ever write down anything else? Is he the sort who would confess his struggles to a journal? All we have are a handful of flashbacks that show something different to what he's publicly stated. That's why I really want the ability to talk to him about what we saw. Chances are he'd try to convince us it wasn't real; just a false echo left behind by Mannimarco to try to make himself look better. I dunno. I just want more from these two than we've been given in game. I know, I know, it's our story, not theirs, and so forth, but since they're rather a large part of it, they should get more spotlight.Lol...like in that link you shared about that book that came with the collector's edition. The updated Emperor's Guide to Tamriel, where the guy made a note that he needed to draw Mannimarco meaner. (I think it was something like that).
I mean, from my point of view, he really doesn't look scary.
Not that he looks any scarier if he gives us that look from the new picture, of course.
I don't think he looks scary. Stern. Forbidding. Unpleasant. All of that. Based on that look alone, I'd probably avoid him if I came across him just because I wouldn't want to get insulted just for existing, but not out of fear.Ok, so that's definitely post-ascension. Maybe even post-fall. A cave? Poor Mannimarco.
In Daggerfall he already lives in a barrow where there's, well, actually nothing except for his white coffin, but maybe that can be attributed to the graphics. What a change; at the beginning of ESO he still had a castle, and later he basically lives like a hobo (I hope that's the colloquial English word for it, I don't mean it as an insult). But yes, definitely a path of ascension. He's the hobo king and later he becomes the hobo god, after all.
Hobo works quite well. And since some consider our characters murder hoboes, he's in good company in that regard.
You succumb to scruples at the oddest times!
Did we even see Wormblood in person? I mean up close? We were up on the bell ringing platform when he came to meet Gabrielle, and mostly just saw his back. When we spoke to his projection, hard to tell if his eyes glowed or not. Seems like they kept him at a distance from us for the most part. Even in the Colored Rooms, we didn't get too close to him.
Yes, we've always been kept a distance away from him, and certainly on purpose (I expect some kind of "dramatic reveal" for Part 2). In loading screen concept art he certainly has glowy eyes that are very noticeable. I just checked my screenshots, indeed the only situation where we're a little closer to him, the view of his face is blocked. By Razum-dar sitting on his chest, pinning him down. Or at least it looked like that, not sure what that strange choreography was supposed to portray
Or wait, I just found this:
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/File:ON-npc-Wormblood_02.jpg
Maybe he only glows from his eyes when he's bored or something. Or it might be his favorite pastime (Second place: Standing around doing nothing - that was a very common hobby for the people in Daggerfall).
Is that a screenshot from in game? Looks like his eyes are glowing because he's using soul magic. Or maybe siphoning souls from somewhere. Or maybe those souls are his only friends. Ah, I'm about to run a second character through the Solstice main quest, so I'll pay closer attention to Wormblood's appearances, now that I know how brief his reign is!Ah, well. All will be revealed in time (maybe).
I hope he'll take off that mask and doesn't just keep it on from now on. That would be even more disappointing than him being ugly! Although there are very ugly liches of course. If Vanny is completely appalled the next time we see him, we might know the answer!
If Vanny is appalled, he'll just tell us it's because Mannimarco hijacked someone else's body, and that's profane and etc. We'll just have to read into his reaction whatever we want to see. If they won't give him interesting dialogue, I'll make it up on my own!
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Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Probably not. Seems like a wasted mythos, though.
There are lots of such situations in ESO actually, where one thinks that much might be done with that newly introduced lore, but then we never see any more to that. Strictly seen, the whole Ithelia story was also such a case. It was introduced and then it was gone again, with so much potential left. I mean, the Luminaries aren't gone at least, but I still somehow don't believe they'll ever come back to that story. Or maybe in the very, very far future, if the game still gets updates at that point. Next year we'll return to the Dark Brotherhood first - after how many years? And who knows what will come the year after.From what I know of Vanny, it seems like he would have struggled with such feelings. What that struggle would look like, I don't know. He's quite reserved when we interact with him. His public persona and writings all convey that clear hatred of necromancy in general and the Worm Cult in particular. Did he ever write down anything else? Is he the sort who would confess his struggles to a journal?
I'd think so. Especially since he has no one he could talk to, not about these things most of all, and I'm sure they're still burdening him. And while I hope we might come across such a journal of his, I don't think he'd be someone to leaves such private writings unattended. Not willingly, at least. Maybe it would be the right time to search through his office or his abode now, as long as he's still imprisoned elsewhere! Oh, I forgot - he has no office. And no homeAll we have are a handful of flashbacks that show something different to what he's publicly stated.
And that's the main point that makes it interesting, because it shows us that there's something not quite right, and there would have to be more background lore.That's why I really want the ability to talk to him about what we saw. Chances are he'd try to convince us it wasn't real; just a false echo left behind by Mannimarco to try to make himself look better.
Oh, I'm quite sure that would be what he'd try to make us believe.
We really have to "convince" him to give us correct answers! By all means necessary. Which probably makes us worse than Mannimarco, because the only thing Mannimarco actually wanted for Vanny was to ascend with him, as an equal. And he wanted him to be less humble, by praising him and giving him encouraging talk, never by force; while we... uhm... I'm not sure: How often did we discuss forcing him into a mental breakdown situation to finally make him talk already?I know, I know, it's our story, not theirs, and so forth, but since they're rather a large part of it, they should get more spotlight.
I honestly don't even think that ESO having to be about our story is such a good argument for giving other characters less focus. Of course I want to do my part in the stories, but I know my character better than anyone else and can make things up in my head about my character's story (probably even better than any portrayal possible through the game, because naturally, choices and dialogue options in game are limited and can never perfectly fit for all kinds of characters), so what I need from the game for my roleplay, are impulses. Basically some events and encounters to build my character around these situations. But what's necessary for that, and what I can't make up, would be exactly the world my character's story shall take place in - the background lore, the cultures, the characters. I mean, of course we can also make these things up ourselves, but from my point of view, this would be the game's part to provide for our roleplay experience. Just like when playing tabletop rpgs, the game master makes up the world and encounters, and I navigate my character through that. I basically see the TES games as the backdrop for my story. And such a backdrop needs interesting lore and good characters - who are not me, because I can "write" my own part myself. Does that make sense? I'm not sure; it's early morning alreadyI don't think he looks scary. Stern. Forbidding. Unpleasant. All of that. Based on that look alone, I'd probably avoid him if I came across him just because I wouldn't want to get insulted just for existing, but not out of fear.
I find it amusing because he looks like he's, well, trying very hard. I'd probably feel provoked into provocation, just to see how he reactsYou succumb to scruples at the oddest times!
I'm just morally selective. I treat well whom I want to treat well. And I like Bosmer, and generally tend to like old people.Is that a screenshot from in game? Looks like his eyes are glowing because he's using soul magic. Or maybe siphoning souls from somewhere.
Yes, it's a screenshot. I guess it's from that Argonian ruin situation where he turns out to be non-defeatable by normal means? Which would be another hint on him being a lich, just getting revived from his... well, that thing they bind their soul to, usually some weird item, like a pot or so. Let's just call it a lich pot. Although I think the formal term was phylactery. But not to be confused with this phylactery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HunpingOr maybe those souls are his only friends.
Is that more friends or less than Mannimarco ever had?Ah, I'm about to run a second character through the Solstice main quest
I'm thinking about that, too, but that character hasn't even completed the main quest of the base game yet, so that's first.If Vanny is appalled, he'll just tell us it's because Mannimarco hijacked someone else's body, and that's profane and etc. We'll just have to read into his reaction whatever we want to see. If they won't give him interesting dialogue, I'll make it up on my own!
Now, while imagining some lore or story aspects is a nice thing to do, I'd also like to see a bit of that actually in game, you know @Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
drkfrontiers✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thanos - best evolution of a "evil" character arc I've ever seen."One must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star."
~ Friedrich Nietzsche1 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Probably not. Seems like a wasted mythos, though.
There are lots of such situations in ESO actually, where one thinks that much might be done with that newly introduced lore, but then we never see any more to that. Strictly seen, the whole Ithelia story was also such a case. It was introduced and then it was gone again, with so much potential left. I mean, the Luminaries aren't gone at least, but I still somehow don't believe they'll ever come back to that story. Or maybe in the very, very far future, if the game still gets updates at that point. Next year we'll return to the Dark Brotherhood first - after how many years? And who knows what will come the year after.
Well, I think Dark Brotherhood came out in the first year? So...a lot of years. And yes, there is a lot of dropped lore, though it's often not as completely brushed away as Ithelia. Honestly, I don't really know what the point was of introducing a new daedric prince when that prince was just going to be disappeared forever again after that, and erased from everyone's memories except ours, because there isn't already enough rumbling around in our heads to make us go insane. Can you imagine us trying to tell the Ithelia tale back at the tavern? "And it turned out there was a daedric prince that Mora made everyone forget, but not very well, because she came back when one of her followers put all the glypics together. But then we banished her, for real this time, so that's taken care of." Talk about learning a lesson where nothing you do matters in the slightest.From what I know of Vanny, it seems like he would have struggled with such feelings. What that struggle would look like, I don't know. He's quite reserved when we interact with him. His public persona and writings all convey that clear hatred of necromancy in general and the Worm Cult in particular. Did he ever write down anything else? Is he the sort who would confess his struggles to a journal?
I'd think so. Especially since he has no one he could talk to, not about these things most of all, and I'm sure they're still burdening him. And while I hope we might come across such a journal of his, I don't think he'd be someone to leaves such private writings unattended. Not willingly, at least. Maybe it would be the right time to search through his office or his abode now, as long as he's still imprisoned elsewhere! Oh, I forgot - he has no office. And no home
He's got to have somewhere he can hang his hat (you know, the hat he doesn't wear but makes everyone else wear with his robes). Maybe every inaccessible door on every building in every town in Tamriel is actually a portal to the Great Mage's pocket plane where he keeps all his stuff. That must be where his journals are, and his second-best staff, and his old robes.That's why I really want the ability to talk to him about what we saw. Chances are he'd try to convince us it wasn't real; just a false echo left behind by Mannimarco to try to make himself look better.
Oh, I'm quite sure that would be what he'd try to make us believe.
We really have to "convince" him to give us correct answers! By all means necessary. Which probably makes us worse than Mannimarco, because the only thing Mannimarco actually wanted for Vanny was to ascend with him, as an equal. And he wanted him to be less humble, by praising him and giving him encouraging talk, never by force; while we... uhm... I'm not sure: How often did we discuss forcing him into a mental breakdown situation to finally make him talk already?
Oh, you know, only once or twice! Or maybe three times. Except there might've been a fourth....I know, I know, it's our story, not theirs, and so forth, but since they're rather a large part of it, they should get more spotlight.
I honestly don't even think that ESO having to be about our story is such a good argument for giving other characters less focus. Of course I want to do my part in the stories, but I know my character better than anyone else and can make things up in my head about my character's story (probably even better than any portrayal possible through the game, because naturally, choices and dialogue options in game are limited and can never perfectly fit for all kinds of characters), so what I need from the game for my roleplay, are impulses. Basically some events and encounters to build my character around these situations. But what's necessary for that, and what I can't make up, would be exactly the world my character's story shall take place in - the background lore, the cultures, the characters. I mean, of course we can also make these things up ourselves, but from my point of view, this would be the game's part to provide for our roleplay experience. Just like when playing tabletop rpgs, the game master makes up the world and encounters, and I navigate my character through that. I basically see the TES games as the backdrop for my story. And such a backdrop needs interesting lore and good characters - who are not me, because I can "write" my own part myself. Does that make sense? I'm not sure; it's early morning already
Well, it makes sense to me, and I agree. I can make existing dialogue options work by imagining a tone my character might be using, or a game he might be playing to test the npc, or whatever I need to do to make it make sense for my character to say (and it gets pretty difficult at times). I can also conjure reasons for why he goes and does all these things called quests, and make them make sense for his character. It's just so much nicer (and easier) and more fun to do it in a fully realized world with well-drawn npcs who have interesting and believable dialogue.I don't think he looks scary. Stern. Forbidding. Unpleasant. All of that. Based on that look alone, I'd probably avoid him if I came across him just because I wouldn't want to get insulted just for existing, but not out of fear.
I find it amusing because he looks like he's, well, trying very hard. I'd probably feel provoked into provocation, just to see how he reacts
Why am I not surprised?Is that a screenshot from in game? Looks like his eyes are glowing because he's using soul magic. Or maybe siphoning souls from somewhere.
Yes, it's a screenshot. I guess it's from that Argonian ruin situation where he turns out to be non-defeatable by normal means? Which would be another hint on him being a lich, just getting revived from his... well, that thing they bind their soul to, usually some weird item, like a pot or so. Let's just call it a lich pot. Although I think the formal term was phylactery. But not to be confused with this phylactery
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunping
Interesting! I'd never come across a phylactery like that before; one more or less based on hope rather than ritual, and after death rather than before. I'd only ever heard of phylacteries being used to bind one's soul/essence to a physical object for reasons that usually involved some form of immortality. Or, as you say, a lich pot.
I'm going to say more. The only friend I ever knew Mannimarco to have was Vanny. Everyone else only had value inasmuch as they served and/or worshipped him.
Yeah, this is the character who was in the process of completing the main quest when Solstice came out. Finished Coldharbour, got the soul back, said good-bye to the companions I didn't sacrifice and the ones who didn't disappear (Lyris and Sai, basically). And when I was talking to Sai, he called me Vestige, but then corrected himself and said, "I guess that's not appropriate anymore." I stared at him for a long, withering moment, and reminded him it was never appropriate.If Vanny is appalled, he'll just tell us it's because Mannimarco hijacked someone else's body, and that's profane and etc. We'll just have to read into his reaction whatever we want to see. If they won't give him interesting dialogue, I'll make it up on my own!
Now, while imagining some lore or story aspects is a nice thing to do, I'd also like to see a bit of that actually in game, you know
That would be ideal, wouldn't it?0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, I think Dark Brotherhood came out in the first year? So...a lot of years.
Summer 2016. Now that they seem to continue each old story after a decade, I'm wondering whether we'll see a continuation of the Orsinium story and of Morrowind, too, in the upcoming few years. While I would not dislike it, it does feel a bit formulaic again, no? If they kept the release order once more?And yes, there is a lot of dropped lore, though it's often not as completely brushed away as Ithelia. Honestly, I don't really know what the point was of introducing a new daedric prince when that prince was just going to be disappeared forever again after that, and erased from everyone's memories except ours
It's a good question why they did it. They must have already had those plans when they wrote Blackwood, I guess, since Fargrave already had that "forgotten daedric plane" background and I don't think they made that up without already having had some background lore in mind for later. Or who knows, maybe that was the sole purpose: To have an explanation for that place existing. Apart from a story about a new daedric prince possibly being a good selling point.
While we're at Fargrave, there's another thing that feels unfinished to me: The portal plaza. I would have expected the portals there to actually function so we could fast-travel to different realms with them.
Another thing that feels like they just dropped the concept at some point is the Old Life shrine quest during the New Life festival, where they added the spirits of characters that died in latest chapters/dlcs for some time, but at some point, also that just stopped.
In general, when it comes to writing, I'd like to see more connections between events and lore introduced to us in different zones. I see how some of these things are or were limited by the "Play all chapters in any order" concept, but except for currently happening events - I think there's no reason to not give us bits about some older lore topics in background narrations spreading over different chapters. They don't even need to be in any particular order for old events; just like some puzzle pieces here and there, that, over time, form a more complete picture for some topic.because there isn't already enough rumbling around in our heads to make us go insane. Can you imagine us trying to tell the Ithelia tale back at the tavern? "And it turned out there was a daedric prince that Mora made everyone forget, but not very well, because she came back when one of her followers put all the glypics together. But then we banished her, for real this time, so that's taken care of."
Well, you're not supposed to tell anyone, after all! I don't think it's more insanity-inducing than many other things. In particular the Alvur Baren quests with their endless retrieval of the same artifacts should be more frustrating and damaging to an individual's mind. Who knows, maybe he and his two brothers are secretly aspects of Sheogorath.Talk about learning a lesson where nothing you do matters in the slightest.
Isn't it a wonderful lesson? It's like in the real world, where most things we did, do and ever will do, don't matter much either - for mankind as a whole, or for the planet, and most of all for the universe, where humankind is nothing more than some lifeform that came to existence in one moment - when thinking of the time the universe exists as a whole - , and then will probably just disappear again in another. It's liberating - no matter how bad you ever mess things up, in the end, the harm is temporaryHe's got to have somewhere he can hang his hat (you know, the hat he doesn't wear but makes everyone else wear with his robes).
And even worse, it makes people go bald, I heard.Maybe every inaccessible door on every building in every town in Tamriel is actually a portal to the Great Mage's pocket plane where he keeps all his stuff. That must be where his journals are, and his second-best staff, and his old robes.
How many robes does he even have? The last time I visited Summerset, I found at least 10 pieces of garments labeled as "Vanus' Robe" strewn all over the Summersetian landscape! It's like he just decides "The weather's fine today, I'll continue my stroll in the nude!" and then throws it over the next cherry tree branch.
No, I have no intention of making fun of the Great Mage. At all.Why am I not surprised?
Probably because Telvanni are known for their scientific curiosity So I just have to test things. Everything really, that comes to my mind.Interesting! I'd never come across a phylactery like that before; one more or less based on hope rather than ritual, and after death rather than before. I'd only ever heard of phylacteries being used to bind one's soul/essence to a physical object for reasons that usually involved some form of immortality. Or, as you say, a lich pot.
Which now leads to the question whether the magic lamp in the tale of Aladdin might be a phylactery and the "jinn" actually a lich. But I think that might get a little off-topicThe only friend I ever knew Mannimarco to have was Vanny. Everyone else only had value inasmuch as they served and/or worshipped him.
Who knows how much serving and worshipping he got from Vanny back then. Or right now.And when I was talking to Sai, he called me Vestige, but then corrected himself and said, "I guess that's not appropriate anymore." I stared at him for a long, withering moment, and reminded him it was never appropriate.
I think it's funny, but mostly because it led to me calling the Vestige "Schnipsel" in German, which doesn't only (usually) mean "paper scrap", but is also an absurdly funny word to call a person (and the pronunciation is very funny too, even for native German speakers).That would be ideal, wouldn't it?
I'm wondering when we'll get the first infos on Part 2 through news articles. Yes, I'm aware that the dungeons come first, in September, I think? I'd expect to get more info on Q4 shortly after that.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Well, I think Dark Brotherhood came out in the first year? So...a lot of years.
Summer 2016. Now that they seem to continue each old story after a decade, I'm wondering whether we'll see a continuation of the Orsinium story and of Morrowind, too, in the upcoming few years. While I would not dislike it, it does feel a bit formulaic again, no? If they kept the release order once more?
Oh, I hadn't made that connection. But didn't Thieves Guild arrive the same time as Dark Brotherhood? (They were both already available when I started). Are they doing a Thieves Guild sequel? All told, it would be nice to see how things have progressed in places we've been, but if they use the same landmass, I wonder how they do that without a lot of phasing. Like if we do go back to Wrothgar, will the landscape reflect the changes? And yes, it would seem a bit formulaic if they did follow the original release order with sequels. Plus, some stories don't need sequels. I mean, I would love to see Vivec City more built, especially since the overseer in charge of that canton from which we borrowed the blessing stone went on vacation in Murkmire, and she said she and her wife were going to do that once the construction was finished, but every time I visit the city, that canton is in the exact same state. Anyway, construction digression aside, does Lord Vivec really need us to do anything for him now that's back to full power and floating godliness?And yes, there is a lot of dropped lore, though it's often not as completely brushed away as Ithelia. Honestly, I don't really know what the point was of introducing a new daedric prince when that prince was just going to be disappeared forever again after that, and erased from everyone's memories except ours
It's a good question why they did it. They must have already had those plans when they wrote Blackwood, I guess, since Fargrave already had that "forgotten daedric plane" background and I don't think they made that up without already having had some background lore in mind for later. Or who knows, maybe that was the sole purpose: To have an explanation for that place existing. Apart from a story about a new daedric prince possibly being a good selling point.
While we're at Fargrave, there's another thing that feels unfinished to me: The portal plaza. I would have expected the portals there to actually function so we could fast-travel to different realms with them.
Another thing that feels like they just dropped the concept at some point is the Old Life shrine quest during the New Life festival, where they added the spirits of characters that died in latest chapters/dlcs for some time, but at some point, also that just stopped.
In general, when it comes to writing, I'd like to see more connections between events and lore introduced to us in different zones. I see how some of these things are or were limited by the "Play all chapters in any order" concept, but except for currently happening events - I think there's no reason to not give us bits about some older lore topics in background narrations spreading over different chapters. They don't even need to be in any particular order for old events; just like some puzzle pieces here and there, that, over time, form a more complete picture for some topic.
At the time, I did think that portal plaza would be more significant. Not when wayshrines exist, I guess.
More connections would be very welcome. As it stands now, most storylines seem very isolated. Aside from returning characters you can sometimes chat with about old adventures, nobody in the world seems really aware of what's happening one zone over. Why don't we ever come across someone who, say, fled Elsweyr because of dragons and are now trying to make a new life for themselves in Blackwood? Or some books that were written about the events (during or immediately following them) and have now been published and left on the ground for us to find. Or were those not the kind of connections you meant?because there isn't already enough rumbling around in our heads to make us go insane. Can you imagine us trying to tell the Ithelia tale back at the tavern? "And it turned out there was a daedric prince that Mora made everyone forget, but not very well, because she came back when one of her followers put all the glypics together. But then we banished her, for real this time, so that's taken care of."
Well, you're not supposed to tell anyone, after all!
Pfft...yeah, because you always follow orders.I don't think it's more insanity-inducing than many other things. In particular the Alvur Baren quests with their endless retrieval of the same artifacts should be more frustrating and damaging to an individual's mind. Who knows, maybe he and his two brothers are secretly aspects of Sheogorath.
That does make sense, because they are all relics of the mad god, aren't they? So, yes, those mages guild quests are all just part of Sheogorath's game.Talk about learning a lesson where nothing you do matters in the slightest.
Isn't it a wonderful lesson? It's like in the real world, where most things we did, do and ever will do, don't matter much either - for mankind as a whole, or for the planet, and most of all for the universe, where humankind is nothing more than some lifeform that came to existence in one moment - when thinking of the time the universe exists as a whole - , and then will probably just disappear again in another. It's liberating - no matter how bad you ever mess things up, in the end, the harm is temporary
Lol...too real! And a little too nihilistic for me. True, nothing really matters in the end, but we're not at the end yet!Maybe every inaccessible door on every building in every town in Tamriel is actually a portal to the Great Mage's pocket plane where he keeps all his stuff. That must be where his journals are, and his second-best staff, and his old robes.
How many robes does he even have? The last time I visited Summerset, I found at least 10 pieces of garments labeled as "Vanus' Robe" strewn all over the Summersetian landscape! It's like he just decides "The weather's fine today, I'll continue my stroll in the nude!" and then throws it over the next cherry tree branch.
No, I have no intention of making fun of the Great Mage. At all.
And since the weather's always fine in Summerset, that's a new robe every day!
I assume he has a robe for every day of the year, but they all look the same, because he wants to be instantly recognizable. Since he recently decided to change the style of his robes, that means all his previous robes are useless to him now. Well, he has to do something with them, so why not toss them about the landscape and let lesser people enjoy the benefits of second-hand Great Mage robes?Interesting! I'd never come across a phylactery like that before; one more or less based on hope rather than ritual, and after death rather than before. I'd only ever heard of phylacteries being used to bind one's soul/essence to a physical object for reasons that usually involved some form of immortality. Or, as you say, a lich pot.
Which now leads to the question whether the magic lamp in the tale of Aladdin might be a phylactery and the "jinn" actually a lich. But I think that might get a little off-topic
Yes, and we never go off-topic!
Interesting question, because though he did want Vanny to assert his rights as a talented and superior mer, there might have also been a little bit of admiration from Vanny to him that he took as his due. Would he have valued Vanny that much if he detected outright servility or worship from him?And when I was talking to Sai, he called me Vestige, but then corrected himself and said, "I guess that's not appropriate anymore." I stared at him for a long, withering moment, and reminded him it was never appropriate.
I think it's funny, but mostly because it led to me calling the Vestige "Schnipsel" in German, which doesn't only (usually) mean "paper scrap", but is also an absurdly funny word to call a person (and the pronunciation is very funny too, even for native German speakers).
Ok, sure, if he had been calling me "Schnipsel" this whole time, I wouldn't have been annoyed by it. But Vestige? Come on. That's just rude. Particularly as I was doing all the heavy lifting in all those quests while those full-souled people were hiding in a cave and wringing their hands.
They already did a livestream preview of the dungeons, so hopefully we can get some information on part 2 soon-ish.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Oh, I hadn't made that connection. But didn't Thieves Guild arrive the same time as Dark Brotherhood? (They were both already available when I started).
Thieves Guild was released in spring 2016, Dark Brotherhood in the summer of the same year.Are they doing a Thieves Guild sequel?
I've been wondering whether that might be another part of the content for next year, as a Dark Brotherhood theme alone might be not much for a whole year? Maybe they make it a "Season of Crime" or whatever; or maybe they even split it into two different half-year seasons - hopefully not both at a full season price each!All told, it would be nice to see how things have progressed in places we've been, but if they use the same landmass, I wonder how they do that without a lot of phasing. Like if we do go back to Wrothgar, will the landscape reflect the changes?
I think they'd probably have to do two different maps of each region? They can't really disable all old quests for people who have not completed them yet, but I can't see them making the completion of all quests in the old zone the prerequisite for starting the new content either (also it would be a pity not to be able to see the old quest locations and npcs again, in some cases).
Or maybe they just slap a continuation to some old quests into the same map, as in if you talk to that npc again, they'll have another quest for you. But that would mean no changes to locations at all, or really a lot of phasing (could get extremely buggy, too).Plus, some stories don't need sequels. I mean, I would love to see Vivec City more built, especially since the overseer in charge of that canton from which we borrowed the blessing stone went on vacation in Murkmire, and she said she and her wife were going to do that once the construction was finished, but every time I visit the city, that canton is in the exact same state. Anyway, construction digression aside, does Lord Vivec really need us to do anything for him now that's back to full power and floating godliness?
Don't worry, there'll probably just be some new world ending threat Also, I'd really like to see Vivec City in its finished state.At the time, I did think that portal plaza would be more significant. Not when wayshrines exist, I guess.
I think enabling these portals would do a lot for immersion alone.More connections would be very welcome. As it stands now, most storylines seem very isolated. Aside from returning characters you can sometimes chat with about old adventures, nobody in the world seems really aware of what's happening one zone over. Why don't we ever come across someone who, say, fled Elsweyr because of dragons and are now trying to make a new life for themselves in Blackwood? Or some books that were written about the events (during or immediately following them) and have now been published and left on the ground for us to find. Or were those not the kind of connections you meant?
That could be done. But I was, in addition to that, also thinking about background lore about events that took place long before ESO. So far we often only get bits related to the current location (if at all...) - I'd just like to see more about background lore in general. We discussed cosmology in the other thread, that would be a lore topic, for example, that they could elaborate on, bit by bit, over different locations and chapters, even if those main stories are not related to each other.Pfft...yeah, because you always follow orders.
In that case, it's not that much about following orders, but about being wise enough to know when I don't want to be considered insane by the common peopleThat does make sense, because they are all relics of the mad god, aren't they? So, yes, those mages guild quests are all just part of Sheogorath's game.
Yes, they are. The Mages Guild is completely infiltrated, I'm afraid. And Vanny does nothing about it!Lol...too real! And a little too nihilistic for me. True, nothing really matters in the end, but we're not at the end yet!
Well, that depends. In case we're in a block universe, we're already at the end, beyond the end, and also right at, before and after the beginning. And in the middle of it as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternalism_(philosophy_of_time)And since the weather's always fine in Summerset, that's a new robe every day!
His job must pay really well.I assume he has a robe for every day of the year, but they all look the same, because he wants to be instantly recognizable. Since he recently decided to change the style of his robes, that means all his previous robes are useless to him now. Well, he has to do something with them, so why not toss them about the landscape and let lesser people enjoy the benefits of second-hand Great Mage robes?
That's a plausible explanation. But isn't that risky somehow? His used clothing might leave behind some, what do I know, traces of magical energy!Yes, and we never go off-topic!
All my statements are meant to benefit this game's future writing and loreInteresting question, because though he did want Vanny to assert his rights as a talented and superior mer, there might have also been a little bit of admiration from Vanny to him that he took as his due. Would he have valued Vanny that much if he detected outright servility or worship from him?
In private? Certainly.Ok, sure, if he had been calling me "Schnipsel" this whole time, I wouldn't have been annoyed by it. But Vestige? Come on. That's just rude. Particularly as I was doing all the heavy lifting in all those quests while those full-souled people were hiding in a cave and wringing their hands.
What name or title would you suggest?They already did a livestream preview of the dungeons, so hopefully we can get some information on part 2 soon-ish.
I hope they won't just forget Vanny, since he already seemed to have been forgotten by everyone at the dramatic ending of Part 1.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭All told, it would be nice to see how things have progressed in places we've been, but if they use the same landmass, I wonder how they do that without a lot of phasing. Like if we do go back to Wrothgar, will the landscape reflect the changes?
I think they'd probably have to do two different maps of each region? They can't really disable all old quests for people who have not completed them yet, but I can't see them making the completion of all quests in the old zone the prerequisite for starting the new content either (also it would be a pity not to be able to see the old quest locations and npcs again, in some cases).
Or maybe they just slap a continuation to some old quests into the same map, as in if you talk to that npc again, they'll have another quest for you. But that would mean no changes to locations at all, or really a lot of phasing (could get extremely buggy, too).
A different map of the region would be like an entire zone phasing, and that could work. They'd have to make the wayshrines give the option for which version--or at least one of them, the "main" one--and I think that would be better than phasing a lot of individual areas or just having no realistic changes to the landscape at all. Pretty sure they wouldn't make completing the earlier version a prerequisite, as that goes against their entire philosophy of playing whatever content you want, and they certainly won't just get rid of or disable old zones/quests.Plus, some stories don't need sequels. I mean, I would love to see Vivec City more built, especially since the overseer in charge of that canton from which we borrowed the blessing stone went on vacation in Murkmire, and she said she and her wife were going to do that once the construction was finished, but every time I visit the city, that canton is in the exact same state. Anyway, construction digression aside, does Lord Vivec really need us to do anything for him now that's back to full power and floating godliness?
Don't worry, there'll probably just be some new world ending threat Also, I'd really like to see Vivec City in its finished state.
Maybe Vivec and Almalexia have a falling out, and you choose which of them to support. Not necessarily world ending, but certainly catastrophic for the Tribunal! And yes to seeing Vivec City finished. Oh, and to seeing Vivec get his version of Ebonheart on Vvardenfell.
I agree. While I make free use of wayshrines, I also like to sometimes take boats or carts to places. Even though the mechanic is exactly the same--instant travel via loading screen--it still feels more appropriate to the world. And since, unlike wayshrine travel, portals are something everyone in the world can use, having them up and running in certain areas would make sense.More connections would be very welcome. As it stands now, most storylines seem very isolated. Aside from returning characters you can sometimes chat with about old adventures, nobody in the world seems really aware of what's happening one zone over. Why don't we ever come across someone who, say, fled Elsweyr because of dragons and are now trying to make a new life for themselves in Blackwood? Or some books that were written about the events (during or immediately following them) and have now been published and left on the ground for us to find. Or were those not the kind of connections you meant?
That could be done. But I was, in addition to that, also thinking about background lore about events that took place long before ESO. So far we often only get bits related to the current location (if at all...) - I'd just like to see more about background lore in general. We discussed cosmology in the other thread, that would be a lore topic, for example, that they could elaborate on, bit by bit, over different locations and chapters, even if those main stories are not related to each other.
Oh, yeah, that would be nice. Also we could get some information on some of the points of interest we discover in every zone. Some of them don't really need much, but others clearly have a history to them, and it would be nice to be able to find out the previous lore of a place you're currently in.
Since when do you care what the commoners think? Since when does any Telvanni care about that? Wait, I know: strategically, right? For those moments when you want to blend in.
For all we know, he's complicit! You know how Shalidor created Labyrinthian to test mages; well, Vanny is working with Sheogorath to constantly test the sanity of all mages in the guild, and even non-mages who come by just for kicks or because Bastian really likes the place.Lol...too real! And a little too nihilistic for me. True, nothing really matters in the end, but we're not at the end yet!
Well, that depends. In case we're in a block universe, we're already at the end, beyond the end, and also right at, before and after the beginning. And in the middle of it as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternalism_(philosophy_of_time)
Time is a circle, not a line, and so forth? Or more like everything happens all at once? Are you trying to break my brain?
I don't know how mages do. Who even pays them? They pay me for the work I do. Eh, Vanny probably just skims whatever he needs off the guild coffers. Money is too mundane for the Great Mage to fuss with, really.I assume he has a robe for every day of the year, but they all look the same, because he wants to be instantly recognizable. Since he recently decided to change the style of his robes, that means all his previous robes are useless to him now. Well, he has to do something with them, so why not toss them about the landscape and let lesser people enjoy the benefits of second-hand Great Mage robes?
That's a plausible explanation. But isn't that risky somehow? His used clothing might leave behind some, what do I know, traces of magical energy!
I did say there were benefits to owning the Great Mage's cast-off garments! Extra magical energy is just one of them. Another is being able to infiltrate the Mages Guild at will. How else do you think Farinor got in?Interesting question, because though he did want Vanny to assert his rights as a talented and superior mer, there might have also been a little bit of admiration from Vanny to him that he took as his due. Would he have valued Vanny that much if he detected outright servility or worship from him?
In private? Certainly.
You think? I always got the impression Mannimarco detested the humble and servile. Then again, he does have ambitions of godhood, so perhaps the worship aspect would work for him.Ok, sure, if he had been calling me "Schnipsel" this whole time, I wouldn't have been annoyed by it. But Vestige? Come on. That's just rude. Particularly as I was doing all the heavy lifting in all those quests while those full-souled people were hiding in a cave and wringing their hands.
What name or title would you suggest?
Ideally, my own name. But I know that can't happen because of fully voice-acted. So, second to that: nothing. Prophet could simply say, "Go through the portal and rescue Sai Sahan." I'll understand he means me.
Why does everyone feel the need to constantly use a signifier when talking directly to my character? If they are talking to me, I'm aware they're talking to me, and they just don't have to keep saying "Vestige" or "Proxy" or "Mercenary" or whatever it is. How often do you say the name of the person you're talking to while in sustained conversation with them? Even in a group of people, you don't need to say everyone's name each time you address them, because you can just look at them. This excessive use of names is a writing convention to help readers keep track of who's talking during a dialogue exchange in print; it's completely unnecessary when the dialogue is voiced and your character is facing the speaker. In case you couldn't tell, this is a long-standing pet peeve of mine.
I'm sure they won't forget Vanny. I'm not so sure I'll like what they do with him.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pretty sure they wouldn't make completing the earlier version a prerequisite, as that goes against their entire philosophy of playing whatever content you want, and they certainly won't just get rid of or disable old zones/quests.
It's already a pity they disabled the old tutorials. I often wonder why we don't just get to choose how we'd like to start a new character? The places still remain in the game anyway. Also, it always seemed like quite some work to create a new one, including building the location, writing dialogues and recording the voice acting, just to disable it after a year. Then I thought they had come to the same conclusion and introduced the Balfiera one with that big portal hall at the end, to keep that for many years to come - but also that one got swapped with an edited version of the very first one now, after just slightly over 3 years. Seeing this makes me wonder whether there's no artistic long-term concept for the game?Maybe Vivec and Almalexia have a falling out, and you choose which of them to support. Not necessarily world ending, but certainly catastrophic for the Tribunal!
Actually, something about Almalexia showing first signs of madness wouldn't be bad. It's obvious she's... different later in the third era.I agree. While I make free use of wayshrines, I also like to sometimes take boats or carts to places. Even though the mechanic is exactly the same--instant travel via loading screen--it still feels more appropriate to the world. And since, unlike wayshrine travel, portals are something everyone in the world can use, having them up and running in certain areas would make sense.
The portals in Fargrave could also lead to more specific locations that do not have a wayshrine. Although of course, a different question is what we'd do there, and how often we'd even have to visit these places. And maybe there would be complaints about not being able to access these places through normal wayshrines then, too.
Honestly, the best would probably opening those portals as a part of some new questline. I think having a story reason to use them would really be the best decision.Oh, yeah, that would be nice. Also we could get some information on some of the points of interest we discover in every zone. Some of them don't really need much, but others clearly have a history to them, and it would be nice to be able to find out the previous lore of a place you're currently in.
I was disappointed enough we didn't even get lore on all the places we visited in the latest story, while some would certainly have been interesting.Since when do you care what the commoners think? Since when does any Telvanni care about that? Wait, I know: strategically, right? For those moments when you want to blend in.
Exactly that. Sometimes it's necessary, for instance for gathering information or... well, those kinds of things. Nothing to be concerned about!For all we know, he's complicit! You know how Shalidor created Labyrinthian to test mages; well, Vanny is working with Sheogorath to constantly test the sanity of all mages in the guild, and even non-mages who come by just for kicks or because Bastian really likes the place.
So can we assume that Vanny is, in one way or another, insane?Time is a circle, not a line, and so forth? Or more like everything happens all at once? Are you trying to break my brain?
Maybe I should have presented you a theory in which time does not exist at all. And, of course, I only have the best intentions!I don't know how mages do. Who even pays them? They pay me for the work I do. Eh, Vanny probably just skims whatever he needs off the guild coffers. Money is too mundane for the Great Mage to fuss with, really.
He needed money to buy his many robes, though. Unless they're gifts, of course (but not by his mother; we can clearly rule that out).I did say there were benefits to owning the Great Mage's cast-off garments! Extra magical energy is just one of them. Another is being able to infiltrate the Mages Guild at will. How else do you think Farinor got in?
Probably the same way as me: "Yes, I'd like to join, now give me the gold and the extra skill line." It's not like they're having any background checks, or qualification tests, or any safety measures at all.You think? I always got the impression Mannimarco detested the humble and servile. Then again, he does have ambitions of godhood, so perhaps the worship aspect would work for him.
I'm sure that as a private pastime, he wouldn't mind that behaviour. Some people separate between private life and work, you know?Ideally, my own name. But I know that can't happen because of fully voice-acted.
Text-to-voice already exists. Phonetics also exist. So who knows, maybe one day?So, second to that: nothing. Prophet could simply say, "Go through the portal and rescue Sai Sahan." I'll understand he means me.
Oh, are you sure? Npcs usually seem to think we're a little dense.Why does everyone feel the need to constantly use a signifier when talking directly to my character? If they are talking to me, I'm aware they're talking to me, and they just don't have to keep saying "Vestige" or "Proxy" or "Mercenary" or whatever it is. How often do you say the name of the person you're talking to while in sustained conversation with them? Even in a group of people, you don't need to say everyone's name each time you address them, because you can just look at them.
I think there are actually theories about how directly addressing someone would leave a more friendly impression and make them more willing to listen to you or something like that. Honestly, I never cared much and find it rather strange when people do that. Like, I know my name, you don't have to repeat it in every third sentenceI'm sure they won't forget Vanny. I'm not so sure I'll like what they do with him.
I don't think he'll die so soon. Unless they also plan to change the returning players tutorial every year from now on.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Pretty sure they wouldn't make completing the earlier version a prerequisite, as that goes against their entire philosophy of playing whatever content you want, and they certainly won't just get rid of or disable old zones/quests.
It's already a pity they disabled the old tutorials. I often wonder why we don't just get to choose how we'd like to start a new character? The places still remain in the game anyway. Also, it always seemed like quite some work to create a new one, including building the location, writing dialogues and recording the voice acting, just to disable it after a year. Then I thought they had come to the same conclusion and introduced the Balfiera one with that big portal hall at the end, to keep that for many years to come - but also that one got swapped with an edited version of the very first one now, after just slightly over 3 years. Seeing this makes me wonder whether there's no artistic long-term concept for the game?
Hah, I said they wouldn't disable old quests, completing forgetting they had done just that with the tutorials. Well! For the longest time, I didn't even realize each new chapter came with its own tutorial, so I didn't even see them all. That does seem like a strange waste of resources.
I wouldn't say there's no artistic long-term concept for the game based on the various tutorial shenanigans. Seems to me more like they wanted the tutorial to align with the most current content, but then they had so much content they felt a more generic tutorial that clued you in about all the content would be better, and then they decided, no, new players should start out in Coldharbour like the old-timers had to, for more cohesive story telling. It's like they've been trying to find the perfect introduction to the game as a whole, and trying out various ideas, but then realized the best introduction was the one they started out with.Maybe Vivec and Almalexia have a falling out, and you choose which of them to support. Not necessarily world ending, but certainly catastrophic for the Tribunal!
Actually, something about Almalexia showing first signs of madness wouldn't be bad. It's obvious she's... different later in the third era.
Well, I know (and Sil knows) that things don't end well for the Tribunal, so a subtle story where we see the glimmers of that could be interesting. To me, anyway.I agree. While I make free use of wayshrines, I also like to sometimes take boats or carts to places. Even though the mechanic is exactly the same--instant travel via loading screen--it still feels more appropriate to the world. And since, unlike wayshrine travel, portals are something everyone in the world can use, having them up and running in certain areas would make sense.
The portals in Fargrave could also lead to more specific locations that do not have a wayshrine. Although of course, a different question is what we'd do there, and how often we'd even have to visit these places. And maybe there would be complaints about not being able to access these places through normal wayshrines then, too.
Honestly, the best would probably opening those portals as a part of some new questline. I think having a story reason to use them would really be the best decision.
I know it goes against player convenience, but having certain areas only reachable by distinct portals is interesting to me. Like how, for the longest time, you could only get to Eyevea through the portal in the Mages Guild, even though it had a wayshrine you could use to leave. (Which I really didn't understand, because it has all those portals in that one area--the travel district, or whatever).Since when do you care what the commoners think? Since when does any Telvanni care about that? Wait, I know: strategically, right? For those moments when you want to blend in.
Exactly that. Sometimes it's necessary, for instance for gathering information or... well, those kinds of things. Nothing to be concerned about!
And yet, somehow I am concerned.For all we know, he's complicit! You know how Shalidor created Labyrinthian to test mages; well, Vanny is working with Sheogorath to constantly test the sanity of all mages in the guild, and even non-mages who come by just for kicks or because Bastian really likes the place.
So can we assume that Vanny is, in one way or another, insane?
Pretty sure he'd have to be, at this point. At least a little.
The best intentions to...do what, exactly? Drive an innocent Altmer to the brink of insanity?I don't know how mages do. Who even pays them? They pay me for the work I do. Eh, Vanny probably just skims whatever he needs off the guild coffers. Money is too mundane for the Great Mage to fuss with, really.
He needed money to buy his many robes, though. Unless they're gifts, of course (but not by his mother; we can clearly rule that out).
Ouch! Low blow, even for a Telvanni!I did say there were benefits to owning the Great Mage's cast-off garments! Extra magical energy is just one of them. Another is being able to infiltrate the Mages Guild at will. How else do you think Farinor got in?
Probably the same way as me: "Yes, I'd like to join, now give me the gold and the extra skill line." It's not like they're having any background checks, or qualification tests, or any safety measures at all.
True enough. They even let in people with no magical aptitude at all!You think? I always got the impression Mannimarco detested the humble and servile. Then again, he does have ambitions of godhood, so perhaps the worship aspect would work for him.
I'm sure that as a private pastime, he wouldn't mind that behaviour. Some people separate between private life and work, you know?
Some people do, but I never got the impression that Mannimarco did.
Lol, that's true. Or maybe they're the ones who need the constant reminder of who they're talking to. Prophet is blind, after all (or so he says).Why does everyone feel the need to constantly use a signifier when talking directly to my character? If they are talking to me, I'm aware they're talking to me, and they just don't have to keep saying "Vestige" or "Proxy" or "Mercenary" or whatever it is. How often do you say the name of the person you're talking to while in sustained conversation with them? Even in a group of people, you don't need to say everyone's name each time you address them, because you can just look at them.
I think there are actually theories about how directly addressing someone would leave a more friendly impression and make them more willing to listen to you or something like that. Honestly, I never cared much and find it rather strange when people do that. Like, I know my name, you don't have to repeat it in every third sentence
To me it seems a bit passive-aggressive to be repeating someone's name a lot in the course of conversation. Someone I don't know saying my name over and over only makes me want to excuse myself from talking to them. Creep factor: five.
They wouldn't have to change it, because it takes place in the past. Or something.
But I wasn't thinking of them killing him off. I was more thinking how little they'll give him to do, how little of interest he'll have to say, and how little his role will matter.
Let me end with a little snippet of my second playthrough of the main quest on Solstice. This time, after Vanny appeared and shorted out in the throne room, in the following conversation with Gabrielle, I chose the laughing face player response of, "You want to take advice from someone who got captured by the Worm Cult?" (Last time I chose the angry face "it's probably a trap!" response).
She said: "I know Vanus Galerion can be rather full of himself. But in his case, a bit of overconfidence is warranted." (Ok, I thought, that's debatable.) Then came the immortal line, "This wouldn't be the first time he let himself be captured to get close to his enemies."
But this time, since I chose the laughing face option previously, I got to say: "I guess 'spying on the enemy' sounds better than 'I got captured'."
Haha, oh the Great Mage, a convenient target for my little Dunmer's mirth.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hah, I said they wouldn't disable old quests, completing forgetting they had done just that with the tutorials. Well! For the longest time, I didn't even realize each new chapter came with its own tutorial, so I didn't even see them all.
I played all of them except for the recent one. Unfortunately, I don't have any free character slots left right now (and I'm not going to buy one - if I still had one left, I could certainly come up with some new character, but it's not like I have a character idea I'd absolutely like to realize at the moment), so I can't even check in which ways the current one differs from the original tutorial; I only read that there are changes to it. Who knows, maybe we'll get a new race or class within the next few years, and the tutorial might remain the way it currently is until then...
Or wait, the tutorial for returning players is based on the last login on one server, right? So if I'd create a character on the NA server which I never used yet now, I could see the new general tutorial, and when I leave that character alone for a few months, I could also see the Vanny tutorial later? Do character names have to be generally unique or are they also restricted to one server - like, could I create another character on the NA server using the same name I already used on the EU server? Then I might just create a copy of my main on NA.I wouldn't say there's no artistic long-term concept for the game based on the various tutorial shenanigans. Seems to me more like they wanted the tutorial to align with the most current content, but then they had so much content they felt a more generic tutorial that clued you in about all the content would be better, and then they decided, no, new players should start out in Coldharbour like the old-timers had to, for more cohesive story telling. It's like they've been trying to find the perfect introduction to the game as a whole, and trying out various ideas, but then realized the best introduction was the one they started out with.
It just feels a little strange to me that they built that huge portal hall for the Balfiera tutorial, with those many spare portal gates which left the impression they plan to keep this one for years to come, but then it also only lasted 3 years.Well, I know (and Sil knows) that things don't end well for the Tribunal, so a subtle story where we see the glimmers of that could be interesting. To me, anyway.
I'd fully appreciate that, and it would be an interesting story without the usual daedric world-ending threats for once. A more personal story, which gives the possibility for a more in-depth, emotional, or partially even philosophical approach. And an opportunity for more Tribunal background lore, of course. If it had the same quality that the storytelling in CWC had, that might become one of the best dlcs, from my point of view.Pretty sure he'd have to be, at this point. At least a little.
I mean, his obsession with the Worm Cult and Mannimarco indeed doesn't seem completely healthy. Although maybe still a bit "healthier" in scope than Mannimarco's obsession for him.The best intentions to...do what, exactly? Drive an innocent Altmer to the brink of insanity?
You'll notice soon enough.Ouch! Low blow, even for a Telvanni!
It's not like Trechtus is able to read this anywayTrue enough. They even let in people with no magical aptitude at all!
The whole recruitment process seems questionable to me. You say you want to join, they give you gold, and then you might just never show up again. I don't think that's beneficial to the guild.Some people do, but I never got the impression that Mannimarco did.
It's not like we know much about his hobbies. Maybe he does completely different things in his free time and the whole cult leader & necromancer stuff is just his, well, his profession, in a way.Lol, that's true. Or maybe they're the ones who need the constant reminder of who they're talking to.
I rather think they've already forgotten, so they just come up with something random like "mercenary". Well, in the latest content we know that they forgot that we're supposed to be a member of the Stirk Fellowship.To me it seems a bit passive-aggressive to be repeating someone's name a lot in the course of conversation. Someone I don't know saying my name over and over only makes me want to excuse myself from talking to them. Creep factor: five.
But it's "important to create a personal connection", "makes the interaction feel more personal, engaging, impactful, and memorable", and all those other things those "motivational speakers" and self-help freaks say. It creeps me out too.They wouldn't have to change it, because it takes place in the past. Or something.
Oh. Well, that's a little concerning then.But I wasn't thinking of them killing him off. I was more thinking how little they'll give him to do, how little of interest he'll have to say, and how little his role will matter.
The main problem I see is really that they somehow designed him in game to be some annoying character that now most players came to dislike - while they could have chosen a completely different path, a more appropriate one taking into consideration his background lore more.Let me end with a little snippet of my second playthrough of the main quest on Solstice. This time, after Vanny appeared and shorted out in the throne room, in the following conversation with Gabrielle, I chose the laughing face player response of, "You want to take advice from someone who got captured by the Worm Cult?" (Last time I chose the angry face "it's probably a trap!" response).
She said: "I know Vanus Galerion can be rather full of himself. But in his case, a bit of overconfidence is warranted." (Ok, I thought, that's debatable.) Then came the immortal line, "This wouldn't be the first time he let himself be captured to get close to his enemies."
Still makes me wonder whether he even has other "enemies" than Mannimarco.But this time, since I chose the laughing face option previously, I got to say: "I guess 'spying on the enemy' sounds better than 'I got captured'."
Haha, oh the Great Mage, a convenient target for my little Dunmer's mirth.
What was the reply to that?@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Hah, I said they wouldn't disable old quests, completing forgetting they had done just that with the tutorials. Well! For the longest time, I didn't even realize each new chapter came with its own tutorial, so I didn't even see them all.
I played all of them except for the recent one. Unfortunately, I don't have any free character slots left right now (and I'm not going to buy one - if I still had one left, I could certainly come up with some new character, but it's not like I have a character idea I'd absolutely like to realize at the moment), so I can't even check in which ways the current one differs from the original tutorial; I only read that there are changes to it. Who knows, maybe we'll get a new race or class within the next few years, and the tutorial might remain the way it currently is until then...
Or wait, the tutorial for returning players is based on the last login on one server, right? So if I'd create a character on the NA server which I never used yet now, I could see the new general tutorial, and when I leave that character alone for a few months, I could also see the Vanny tutorial later? Do character names have to be generally unique or are they also restricted to one server - like, could I create another character on the NA server using the same name I already used on the EU server? Then I might just create a copy of my main on NA.
I can't say from experience, since I've never created a character on the EU server, but since there is no cross-server things going on, using the same name as your EU main should be fine.I wouldn't say there's no artistic long-term concept for the game based on the various tutorial shenanigans. Seems to me more like they wanted the tutorial to align with the most current content, but then they had so much content they felt a more generic tutorial that clued you in about all the content would be better, and then they decided, no, new players should start out in Coldharbour like the old-timers had to, for more cohesive story telling. It's like they've been trying to find the perfect introduction to the game as a whole, and trying out various ideas, but then realized the best introduction was the one they started out with.
It just feels a little strange to me that they built that huge portal hall for the Balfiera tutorial, with those many spare portal gates which left the impression they plan to keep this one for years to come, but then it also only lasted 3 years.
I think they did intend to keep using it and adding portals to it, but then decided to go back to the original one. I can't recall exactly what reason they gave, but I think there had been feedback about it--the idea of making the story more cohesive and starting people with the main quest, because otherwise there was so much content, newer players felt overwhelmed.Well, I know (and Sil knows) that things don't end well for the Tribunal, so a subtle story where we see the glimmers of that could be interesting. To me, anyway.
I'd fully appreciate that, and it would be an interesting story without the usual daedric world-ending threats for once. A more personal story, which gives the possibility for a more in-depth, emotional, or partially even philosophical approach. And an opportunity for more Tribunal background lore, of course. If it had the same quality that the storytelling in CWC had, that might become one of the best dlcs, from my point of view.
It would be so nice. And now I'm going to daydream about such a dlc.
Damning with faint praise. Well, at least Vanny hasn't crafted any 100 ft. tall flesh sculptures. Hopefully.
Vehk save me!
Lol, and the hits just keep coming!
In the Auridon Mages Guild, there's a mage teaching a class. Seems like she's instructing relative beginners. That is the only sign I have ever seen that the guild does anything remotely sensible or profitable (assuming they charge fees for classes) or related to the general sharing of magic for which it was established in the first place.
Mannimarco in his down time...I don't know enough about him to really picture what that looks like. I'm going to have to go with he has no down time. He is all necromancer cult leader all the time. Except for the time he spends on his ascension to godhood plans. And maybe now his revenge plans, since he's out and about again.Lol, that's true. Or maybe they're the ones who need the constant reminder of who they're talking to.
I rather think they've already forgotten, so they just come up with something random like "mercenary". Well, in the latest content we know that they forgot that we're supposed to be a member of the Stirk Fellowship.
The character I'm taking through the Solstice main quest right now hasn't done a lot of content outside the Aldmeri Dominion storyline and the main quest/Coldharbour. So he hasn't met a lot of these returning npcs. He's never come across Rigurt, for example, and yet when he saw him on Solstice, he had the same line of, "You're the representative the Pact sent?" Like he had any idea who this guy was. Walks and Skordo he did know from Coldharbour, and of course Raz from AD quests. Wait, where was I going with this? Oh, right. So he ran past Keshu at one point, and she called out, all friendly and like she knows who he is, "Hey, mercenary!" (Because 'mercenary' is the signifier of choice in Blackwood.) Now, that more or less worked for my main, because he would have known her from Blackwood, but this guy? Why would she assume he was a mercenary? For all she knows, he's a resident of the island, just traveling about. But now that you bring up their horrible memories, I think Keshu really does just call everyone she sees 'mercenary'. It's easy, and it saves on having to recall details of people.To me it seems a bit passive-aggressive to be repeating someone's name a lot in the course of conversation. Someone I don't know saying my name over and over only makes me want to excuse myself from talking to them. Creep factor: five.
But it's "important to create a personal connection", "makes the interaction feel more personal, engaging, impactful, and memorable", and all those other things those "motivational speakers" and self-help freaks say. It creeps me out too.
I'll give them "memorable," because I certainly do remember people who talk creepy like that. But as for the other stuff: no.But I wasn't thinking of them killing him off. I was more thinking how little they'll give him to do, how little of interest he'll have to say, and how little his role will matter.
The main problem I see is really that they somehow designed him in game to be some annoying character that now most players came to dislike - while they could have chosen a completely different path, a more appropriate one taking into consideration his background lore more.
Yeah, he did get dosed pretty heavily with the "annoying" character trait. I admit I used to think of him that way, too. "This guy again," I would think, every time he hailed me from across town. But now I feel bad I didn't give him his due, or pay more attention to the details that are there in the game if you look for them. I mean, doesn't keep me from poking gentle fun at him here on the forums, but still, he's what I would call an under-served character.Let me end with a little snippet of my second playthrough of the main quest on Solstice. This time, after Vanny appeared and shorted out in the throne room, in the following conversation with Gabrielle, I chose the laughing face player response of, "You want to take advice from someone who got captured by the Worm Cult?" (Last time I chose the angry face "it's probably a trap!" response).
She said: "I know Vanus Galerion can be rather full of himself. But in his case, a bit of overconfidence is warranted." (Ok, I thought, that's debatable.) Then came the immortal line, "This wouldn't be the first time he let himself be captured to get close to his enemies."
Still makes me wonder whether he even has other "enemies" than Mannimarco.
None that we ever have to deal with, apparently. Maybe that purposeful kidnap spying game is more effective than we know.
Something along the lines of, "I'll meet you at the ruins." I think she rather diplomatically chose to not hear the comment.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I can't say from experience, since I've never created a character on the EU server, but since there is no cross-server things going on, using the same name as your EU main should be fine.
Copying sliders will be an effort... But worth it.It would be so nice. And now I'm going to daydream about such a dlc.
Ideally, the lead writer from Morrowind and CWC would work on that; while I believe that any good writer can create interesting work, and lore-savviness can be learned, I just really liked his tone for the narrations back then.Well, at least Vanny hasn't crafted any 100 ft. tall flesh sculptures. Hopefully.
Who knows, maybe that's another of his enigmatic hobbies.In the Auridon Mages Guild, there's a mage teaching a class. Seems like she's instructing relative beginners. That is the only sign I have ever seen that the guild does anything remotely sensible or profitable (assuming they charge fees for classes) or related to the general sharing of magic for which it was established in the first place.
They sell potions. And, uhm, help people with rat problems. Or wait, no, what was the Fighters Guild. In the next era. Unless maybe it's magical rats. It's strange actually that the Guild quests in ESO focus so much on internal problems, but not much else. Yes, I know, the Fighters Guild removes Anchors (only for them to spawn again after 5 minutes) and the Mages Guild has this Madgod Artifact Retrieval Programme, but other than that, we don't do much for them. And it's always the same, not much variety. I'd actually like to see more specific quests about actually helping different people.Mannimarco in his down time...I don't know enough about him to really picture what that looks like. I'm going to have to go with he has no down time. He is all necromancer cult leader all the time. Except for the time he spends on his ascension to godhood plans. And maybe now his revenge plans, since he's out and about again.
No one can be a cult leader at all times! He surely must spend some time on other things. Like bathing, keeping a diary for his sinister thoughts, and... Unspeakable horrors beyond comprehension? No, that's not what I meant.The character I'm taking through the Solstice main quest right now hasn't done a lot of content outside the Aldmeri Dominion storyline and the main quest/Coldharbour. So he hasn't met a lot of these returning npcs. He's never come across Rigurt, for example, and yet when he saw him on Solstice, he had the same line of, "You're the representative the Pact sent?"
Well, that's disappointing and most probably an oversight.Yeah, he did get dosed pretty heavily with the "annoying" character trait. I admit I used to think of him that way, too. "This guy again," I would think, every time he hailed me from across town. But now I feel bad I didn't give him his due, or pay more attention to the details that are there in the game if you look for them. I mean, doesn't keep me from poking gentle fun at him here on the forums, but still, he's what I would call an under-served character.
My comments on Vanny might sometimes seem a little cruel, but from my point of view, it's just a little teasing, nothing more. I actually like him, in a way. Yes, I know, it's surprising to hear that from a Telvanni.None that we ever have to deal with, apparently. Maybe that purposeful kidnap spying game is more effective than we know.
Or maybe he just makes that kidnapping thing up when telling Gabrielle where he had actually been the last two weeks would be more... questionable? Strange? Embarassing?
How does one even get oneself kidnapped on purpose? Everything I imagine seems rather strange.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭
Good luck with Syldras the Second! Or Syldras Redux. Or, um, alternate reality Syldras, where everything in the world is the same except for one small detail.It would be so nice. And now I'm going to daydream about such a dlc.
Ideally, the lead writer from Morrowind and CWC would work on that; while I believe that any good writer can create interesting work, and lore-savviness can be learned, I just really liked his tone for the narrations back then.
Yes, that was top-notch writing.In the Auridon Mages Guild, there's a mage teaching a class. Seems like she's instructing relative beginners. That is the only sign I have ever seen that the guild does anything remotely sensible or profitable (assuming they charge fees for classes) or related to the general sharing of magic for which it was established in the first place.
They sell potions. And, uhm, help people with rat problems. Or wait, no, what was the Fighters Guild. In the next era. Unless maybe it's magical rats. It's strange actually that the Guild quests in ESO focus so much on internal problems, but not much else. Yes, I know, the Fighters Guild removes Anchors (only for them to spawn again after 5 minutes) and the Mages Guild has this Madgod Artifact Retrieval Programme, but other than that, we don't do much for them. And it's always the same, not much variety. I'd actually like to see more specific quests about actually helping different people.
I keep hoping they add to the guild storylines, so we get more to do with them. There really isn't much to them as guilds. In the beginning of the Fighters Guild quest line, there's some discontent among some members, because the focus is on dark anchors instead of the "one and done" contracts they used to take. It would be nice if they could add another storyline that includes some of that. I'm not talking about dailies, either. They can keep the dull dailies they now have, but more story quests about the guilds actually being a force in Tamriel--there must be people who would hire the Fighters Guild instead of waiting for some chance-met mercenary to wander down the road. Same with the Mages Guild. There have to be magical conundrums arising in towns and such that they would be called on to help with.Mannimarco in his down time...I don't know enough about him to really picture what that looks like. I'm going to have to go with he has no down time. He is all necromancer cult leader all the time. Except for the time he spends on his ascension to godhood plans. And maybe now his revenge plans, since he's out and about again.
No one can be a cult leader at all times! He surely must spend some time on other things. Like bathing, keeping a diary for his sinister thoughts, and... Unspeakable horrors beyond comprehension? No, that's not what I meant.
I gave him a few time carve-outs for godhood and revenge plans. That's plenty for him to do. Add the daily diary entry, and his schedule is packed. The unspeakable horrors are just part and parcel of his other work, so no need to make special time for them.Yeah, he did get dosed pretty heavily with the "annoying" character trait. I admit I used to think of him that way, too. "This guy again," I would think, every time he hailed me from across town. But now I feel bad I didn't give him his due, or pay more attention to the details that are there in the game if you look for them. I mean, doesn't keep me from poking gentle fun at him here on the forums, but still, he's what I would call an under-served character.
My comments on Vanny might sometimes seem a little cruel, but from my point of view, it's just a little teasing, nothing more. I actually like him, in a way. Yes, I know, it's surprising to hear that from a Telvanni.
I don't know; I would expect a Telvanni to respect intellect and magical aptitude. And I doubt bombastic attitudes would bother them. I actually do quite like Vanny now. I want to save him from his prisoner state and restore his super-smart staff to him and have him give his dry observations on what's going on, sprinkled in with a few "Great Mage" lines just for good measure.None that we ever have to deal with, apparently. Maybe that purposeful kidnap spying game is more effective than we know.
Or maybe he just makes that kidnapping thing up when telling Gabrielle where he had actually been the last two weeks would be more... questionable? Strange? Embarassing?
How does one even get oneself kidnapped on purpose? Everything I imagine seems rather strange.
What you do is:
1. Go to a place you know your enemies will be--most likely a ruin, or a somehow previously unknown underground bunker for a Mages Guild chapter.
2. Fight them a little bit, just enough to make them take you seriously, and infiltrate just far enough for them to think you're trapped.
3. When they spring their trap on you, fight just enough to make it seem like you're trying to not be captured, toss out a line like, "The Great Mage does not fall easily!" and then let them take you.
4. Sit in your cell or cage or wherever they've put you and commence spying.
Also, what would be more questionable, strange, and embarrassing than getting kidnapped on purpose? What does the Great Mage do that makes that the lesser story?0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Good luck with Syldras the Second! Or Syldras Redux. Or, um, alternate reality Syldras, where everything in the world is the same except for one small detail.
It's usually a beard. Or a moustache or something like that.I keep hoping they add to the guild storylines, so we get more to do with them. There really isn't much to them as guilds. In the beginning of the Fighters Guild quest line, there's some discontent among some members, because the focus is on dark anchors instead of the "one and done" contracts they used to take. It would be nice if they could add another storyline that includes some of that. I'm not talking about dailies, either. They can keep the dull dailies they now have, but more story quests about the guilds actually being a force in Tamriel--there must be people who would hire the Fighters Guild instead of waiting for some chance-met mercenary to wander down the road. Same with the Mages Guild. There have to be magical conundrums arising in towns and such that they would be called on to help with.
Yes, exactly such quests - not those dailies that I find rather tiring. Honestly, do most people enjoy them? The first time, that bit of background story might still be interesting to read or hear, but if they repeat every 4 days, it gets boring very fast. In the end it's just another grind for people who want a specific drop or the related achievement (Completing 30 dailies it is, I think? I'm probably still missing it most zones).I gave him a few time carve-outs for godhood and revenge plans. That's plenty for him to do. Add the daily diary entry, and his schedule is packed. The unspeakable horrors are just part and parcel of his other work, so no need to make special time for them.
I think it's important to differenciate between unspeakable horrors related to work and unspeakable horrors as a pastime activity. At least I make a clear distinction there.I don't know; I would expect a Telvanni to respect intellect and magical aptitude. And I doubt bombastic attitudes would bother them.
Let's say there are some ethical differences that make me doubtful about that guild. But Vanny as a person? He's fine I guess. Maybe a bit soft. Doesn't mean I wouldn't employ him as an errand boy if he ever asked. In exchange for some, I don't know, place to stay, maybe? A cozy cell?I actually do quite like Vanny now. I want to save him from his prisoner state and restore his super-smart staff to him and have him give his dry observations on what's going on, sprinkled in with a few "Great Mage" lines just for good measure.
As much as I enjoy his dramatic ramblings, I want more actual info. I could even make this actual info the condition for freeing him.What you do is:
1. Go to a place you know your enemies will be--most likely a ruin, or a somehow previously unknown underground bunker for a Mages Guild chapter.
2. Fight them a little bit, just enough to make them take you seriously, and infiltrate just far enough for them to think you're trapped.
3. When they spring their trap on you, fight just enough to make it seem like you're trying to not be captured, toss out a line like, "The Great Mage does not fall easily!" and then let them take you.
4. Sit in your cell or cage or wherever they've put you and commence spying.
That sounds like a lot of work. Couldn't he just stand in front of a Worm Cults nest carrying a sign that reads "Kidnap me"? Oh, I mean: "The Great Mage demands to be kidnapped!"Also, what would be more questionable, strange, and embarrassing than getting kidnapped on purpose? What does the Great Mage do that makes that the lesser story?
Maybe he's just too lazy to work and just likes to disappear for a few weeks every now and then? A kidnapping would probably be one of the least honourless excuses.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭I keep hoping they add to the guild storylines, so we get more to do with them. There really isn't much to them as guilds. In the beginning of the Fighters Guild quest line, there's some discontent among some members, because the focus is on dark anchors instead of the "one and done" contracts they used to take. It would be nice if they could add another storyline that includes some of that. I'm not talking about dailies, either. They can keep the dull dailies they now have, but more story quests about the guilds actually being a force in Tamriel--there must be people who would hire the Fighters Guild instead of waiting for some chance-met mercenary to wander down the road. Same with the Mages Guild. There have to be magical conundrums arising in towns and such that they would be called on to help with.
Yes, exactly such quests - not those dailies that I find rather tiring. Honestly, do most people enjoy them? The first time, that bit of background story might still be interesting to read or hear, but if they repeat every 4 days, it gets boring very fast. In the end it's just another grind for people who want a specific drop or the related achievement (Completing 30 dailies it is, I think? I'm probably still missing it most zones).
Well, in the case of the mages and fighters guilds, I think there are fifteen dailies--one for each base game zone. And at least for the Mages Guild, the first time you hear about one of the relics, there's a bit of lore. The Fighters Guild, though, is just "go close dolmens in X zone." (Actually, it's just dolmen now, since they reduced the requirement awhile back.) But no lore to speak of. As for enjoying them? I don't know. There might be people who like them, but I would guess most people do them for the achievements and whatever boxes/drops you can get from them. As for the chapters where the dailies have that complete 30 tally, that usually takes me years to finally get, and happens because of those celebration events they have for the chapter. I just don't care about most dailies. The ones I do most often are the crafting ones, but those are so quick and easy it barely counts as doing anything. I started doing the Solstice dailies at one point, for the delves and world bosses, because doesn't a lead drop from them? I made it three days before getting tired of it. Got a few motif pages out of it, which is fine, but no lead, and it's just not interesting or engaging enough for me to keep doing on the chance I might get the thing I want.I gave him a few time carve-outs for godhood and revenge plans. That's plenty for him to do. Add the daily diary entry, and his schedule is packed. The unspeakable horrors are just part and parcel of his other work, so no need to make special time for them.
I think it's important to differenciate between unspeakable horrors related to work and unspeakable horrors as a pastime activity. At least I make a clear distinction there.
Well, you're a rather unique individual. At least, I hope you are.I don't know; I would expect a Telvanni to respect intellect and magical aptitude. And I doubt bombastic attitudes would bother them.
Let's say there are some ethical differences that make me doubtful about that guild. But Vanny as a person? He's fine I guess. Maybe a bit soft. Doesn't mean I wouldn't employ him as an errand boy if he ever asked. In exchange for some, I don't know, place to stay, maybe? A cozy cell?
Is it because the guild is all about sharing magical information, and you like to keep that hoarded? I'm also curious why you think he's soft. Is it because he doesn't keep prisoners?I actually do quite like Vanny now. I want to save him from his prisoner state and restore his super-smart staff to him and have him give his dry observations on what's going on, sprinkled in with a few "Great Mage" lines just for good measure.
As much as I enjoy his dramatic ramblings, I want more actual info. I could even make this actual info the condition for freeing him.
I assume the info would be imparted in his dry observations. But what are you going to do? Stand outside his cell and make him tell you what you think is important information before you deign to let him out?What you do is:
1. Go to a place you know your enemies will be--most likely a ruin, or a somehow previously unknown underground bunker for a Mages Guild chapter.
2. Fight them a little bit, just enough to make them take you seriously, and infiltrate just far enough for them to think you're trapped.
3. When they spring their trap on you, fight just enough to make it seem like you're trying to not be captured, toss out a line like, "The Great Mage does not fall easily!" and then let them take you.
4. Sit in your cell or cage or wherever they've put you and commence spying.
That sounds like a lot of work. Couldn't he just stand in front of a Worm Cults nest carrying a sign that reads "Kidnap me"? Oh, I mean: "The Great Mage demands to be kidnapped!"
I mean, he probably could. And the cultists are probably stupid enough to take it all at face value.Also, what would be more questionable, strange, and embarrassing than getting kidnapped on purpose? What does the Great Mage do that makes that the lesser story?
Maybe he's just too lazy to work and just likes to disappear for a few weeks every now and then? A kidnapping would probably be one of the least honourless excuses.
Listen, in any given guild, I've seen maybe all of two mages working. I don't think not working is quite the dishonour you believe it to be amongst mages of the guild.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Well, in the case of the mages and fighters guilds, I think there are fifteen dailies--one for each base game zone. And at least for the Mages Guild, the first time you hear about one of the relics, there's a bit of lore. The Fighters Guild, though, is just "go close dolmens in X zone." (Actually, it's just dolmen now, since they reduced the requirement awhile back.) But no lore to speak of.
Being void of any story, the Fighters Guild dailies are completely uninteresting for me (so, yes, I'd love if they added new, more story-based quests at some point in the future). Of course I did them for dailies or archievements or levelling companions; and at first, about a decade ago, I found the graphical effects of the dolmens quite impressive, too (well, maybe not the graphics by themselves, but the design as a whole, with the dropping anchor, those eerie sounds, etc). But at some point, you've just gotten so used to it, it starts to feel like a chore and not much more; and I think that's a feeling that should rather be avoided because it doesn't exactly motivate players.
The 15 Mages Guild dailies were fun the first time, but at some point it also just gets repetative - also, for some reason, I seem to always get the same ones (it's usually Stonesfalls, Reaper's March and Alik'r, rarely something else)? It's not like they're rotating like the dailies in some later zones, I think? Would be interesting if it's only a coincidence that I always get the same ones or whether other people experience that too.As for the chapters where the dailies have that complete 30 tally, that usually takes me years to finally get, and happens because of those celebration events they have for the chapter. I just don't care about most dailies.
I still think I haven't completed those Murkmire prologue dailies yet - after 7 years or so. And who knows, maybe I never will.The ones I do most often are the crafting ones, but those are so quick and easy it barely counts as doing anything.
I also do those, for the gold. (housing is truly expensive) - at least it's fastly done!I started doing the Solstice dailies at one point, for the delves and world bosses, because doesn't a lead drop from them? I made it three days before getting tired of it. Got a few motif pages out of it, which is fine, but no lead, and it's just not interesting or engaging enough for me to keep doing on the chance I might get the thing I want.
I got that lead after the 4th or 5th day, I think, but I already assumed I had been lucky. I even completed that whole antiquity once; it's a music box - a rather strange one because it doesn't sound like a music box at all. But I think the latest music boxes are all like that? With a more complex instrumentalisation, sometimes even a whole orchestra or even a choir and what not? I'm not sure yet what to think about it.
I'm still doing the Solstice dailies right now, on some days at least, for the achievement - and let's say... It's not exactly exciting I still managed to do them 10 times already though, I think, or maybe even 13 times. Maybe I should stop now, so there's a few left for the unevitable event that will come at some point Well, you're a rather unique individual. At least, I hope you are.
While I'd love to agree, of course, I'm honestly not sure whether there are more like me on Telvanni landsIs it because the guild is all about sharing magical information, and you like to keep that hoarded? I'm also curious why you think he's soft. Is it because he doesn't keep prisoners?
He's on the wrong side of the cell door too often
No, but seriously: It's obvious he's hiding behind a facade. And it doesn't seem he's doing it because he enjoys it - in fact, he doesn't seem to enjoy much at all. And that gives me the impression that he's hiding his feelings, from others, and maybe also from himself - there's clearly a vulnerability.
Real world me feels sorry for him and sees no flaw in being soft - Telvanni me, of course, mocks it.I assume the info would be imparted in his dry observations. But what are you going to do? Stand outside his cell and make him tell you what you think is important information before you deign to let him out?
Honestly, I've already been wondering why exactly he even needs my help. He's the Great Mage, can't he just open a portal or so? Yes, yes, I know, the Wall blocks all portal magic or something. But any other kinds of magical barriers that might keep him caged? Shouldn't the Great Mage be more capable of dissolving such a thing than me? You'd think he should be able to free himself. Unless they split him again, which I hope they did not, as that would become a little repetative.I mean, he probably could. And the cultists are probably stupid enough to take it all at face value.
It's a really weird method for trying to get into Mannimarco's proximity. The strangest thing is still that he seems to seek for him, and Mannimarco has a strange Vanny obsession, but they still didn't actually meet for centuries. How is that even possible?Listen, in any given guild, I've seen maybe all of two mages working. I don't think not working is quite the dishonour you believe it to be amongst mages of the guild.
Ah, right. Well, the one in the guild hall in Solstice is another outstanding example - although... was that guy from the Mages or the Fighters Guild? Mages I think? The drunken one lounging on his chair just at the entrance? It left a rather strange impression. And I have a faint memory that it's not the first time I thought that upon entering a Guild hall.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Well, in the case of the mages and fighters guilds, I think there are fifteen dailies--one for each base game zone. And at least for the Mages Guild, the first time you hear about one of the relics, there's a bit of lore. The Fighters Guild, though, is just "go close dolmens in X zone." (Actually, it's just dolmen now, since they reduced the requirement awhile back.) But no lore to speak of.
Being void of any story, the Fighters Guild dailies are completely uninteresting for me (so, yes, I'd love if they added new, more story-based quests at some point in the future). Of course I did them for dailies or archievements or levelling companions; and at first, about a decade ago, I found the graphical effects of the dolmens quite impressive, too (well, maybe not the graphics by themselves, but the design as a whole, with the dropping anchor, those eerie sounds, etc). But at some point, you've just gotten so used to it, it starts to feel like a chore and not much more; and I think that's a feeling that should rather be avoided because it doesn't exactly motivate players.
The 15 Mages Guild dailies were fun the first time, but at some point it also just gets repetative - also, for some reason, I seem to always get the same ones (it's usually Stonesfalls, Reaper's March and Alik'r, rarely something else)? It's not like they're rotating like the dailies in some later zones, I think? Would be interesting if it's only a coincidence that I always get the same ones or whether other people experience that too.
I still like to close out dolmens I come across in my wanderings (absent any quest to do so) because I remember back when they were difficult for me, and I like that I can solo them now.
I think the Mages Guild dailies do have a regular cycle. Or at least, they used to. I remember when I was doing them regularly for Bastian's rapport that it took awhile to get a repeat. So it's possible you are only doing them when it's the days for those few you see often. Then again, they aren't the same for every person every day, so I'm not sure how it really works.As for the chapters where the dailies have that complete 30 tally, that usually takes me years to finally get, and happens because of those celebration events they have for the chapter. I just don't care about most dailies.
I still think I haven't completed those Murkmire prologue dailies yet - after 7 years or so. And who knows, maybe I never will.
No, I don't have that achievement yet either. I didn't even get it back when you could do all the dailies every day. But those are easy for me to ignore, since I never wanted the pet you can get from those fragments.I started doing the Solstice dailies at one point, for the delves and world bosses, because doesn't a lead drop from them? I made it three days before getting tired of it. Got a few motif pages out of it, which is fine, but no lead, and it's just not interesting or engaging enough for me to keep doing on the chance I might get the thing I want.
I got that lead after the 4th or 5th day, I think, but I already assumed I had been lucky. I even completed that whole antiquity once; it's a music box - a rather strange one because it doesn't sound like a music box at all. But I think the latest music boxes are all like that? With a more complex instrumentalisation, sometimes even a whole orchestra or even a choir and what not? I'm not sure yet what to think about it.
I'm still doing the Solstice dailies right now, on some days at least, for the achievement - and let's say... It's not exactly exciting I still managed to do them 10 times already though, I think, or maybe even 13 times. Maybe I should stop now, so there's a few left for the unevitable event that will come at some point
Yeah, there's so much luck that comes with leads. While I would like to complete all the antiquities, because I find the musings on them by the circle members quite interesting, I've accepted I never will. Even if I do know where the leads are supposed to drop, if they aren't a 100% drop rate, it gets old real fast. Also, some of them are sourced from activities I just have no interest in, so it's going to be an incomplete codex for me, now and forevermore.
I do think about doing the Solstice dailies some more, but every time I think about picking them up, I think: eh, maybe tomorrow.Is it because the guild is all about sharing magical information, and you like to keep that hoarded? I'm also curious why you think he's soft. Is it because he doesn't keep prisoners?
He's on the wrong side of the cell door too often
No, but seriously: It's obvious he's hiding behind a facade. And it doesn't seem he's doing it because he enjoys it - in fact, he doesn't seem to enjoy much at all. And that gives me the impression that he's hiding his feelings, from others, and maybe also from himself - there's clearly a vulnerability.
Real world me feels sorry for him and sees no flaw in being soft - Telvanni me, of course, mocks it.
But isn't hiding behind a facade and keeping his emotions in check very Altmer of him? Or, failing that, very Psijic. I don't deny he's doing that to some extent, but I do wonder how much of it comes from him, and how much from cultural expectations.I assume the info would be imparted in his dry observations. But what are you going to do? Stand outside his cell and make him tell you what you think is important information before you deign to let him out?
Honestly, I've already been wondering why exactly he even needs my help. He's the Great Mage, can't he just open a portal or so? Yes, yes, I know, the Wall blocks all portal magic or something. But any other kinds of magical barriers that might keep him caged? Shouldn't the Great Mage be more capable of dissolving such a thing than me? You'd think he should be able to free himself. Unless they split him again, which I hope they did not, as that would become a little repetative.
I have wondered why he can't free himself, too. Maybe he feels there's no point to it yet, what with impenetrable Wall and all? Maybe the moment we take down the wall, he'll show up and tell us it took us long enough.I mean, he probably could. And the cultists are probably stupid enough to take it all at face value.
It's a really weird method for trying to get into Mannimarco's proximity. The strangest thing is still that he seems to seek for him, and Mannimarco has a strange Vanny obsession, but they still didn't actually meet for centuries. How is that even possible?
That's a good question. For most of that time, Mannimarco was on Tamriel, wasn't he? Ingratiating himself with various courts and emperors and building up power. Maybe Vanny didn't really start looking for him until the Worm Cult got big, and by then Mannimarco was spending most of his time in Coldharbour. Or maybe Vanny couldn't get anyone to believe him about Mannimarco. What if he tried to warn people, and they brushed him off? It is odd, though, that the Great Mage wouldn't have crossed paths with the powerful court advisor in all those years.Listen, in any given guild, I've seen maybe all of two mages working. I don't think not working is quite the dishonour you believe it to be amongst mages of the guild.
Ah, right. Well, the one in the guild hall in Solstice is another outstanding example - although... was that guy from the Mages or the Fighters Guild? Mages I think? The drunken one lounging on his chair just at the entrance? It left a rather strange impression. And I have a faint memory that it's not the first time I thought that upon entering a Guild hall.
The lounging guy in Solstice is with the Mages Guild. I found him rather amusing. He said something like, "Don't tell the fighters guild, but we got the better quarters." I thought: oh, good thing you warned me, because gossiping with the fighters guild members is my favorite pastime.
There's one guy working in that guild, downstairs guarding the dead Hadolid. Par for the course with that guild.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I still like to close out dolmens I come across in my wanderings (absent any quest to do so) because I remember back when they were difficult for me, and I like that I can solo them now.
I think I suffer a bit from dolmen fatigue from that first jubilee event where I ran them for over 15 hours, I think, and without the expected drop... That wasn't the best experience.I think the Mages Guild dailies do have a regular cycle. Or at least, they used to. I remember when I was doing them regularly for Bastian's rapport that it took awhile to get a repeat. So it's possible you are only doing them when it's the days for those few you see often. Then again, they aren't the same for every person every day, so I'm not sure how it really works.
It's all the Madgod's doing...No, I don't have that achievement yet either. I didn't even get it back when you could do all the dailies every day. But those are easy for me to ignore, since I never wanted the pet you can get from those fragments.
Funny thing is, I think I have all parts. And it wasn't a pet, but just a emote, I think? Or am I thinking about the wrong dailies now?Yeah, there's so much luck that comes with leads. While I would like to complete all the antiquities, because I find the musings on them by the circle members quite interesting, I've accepted I never will. Even if I do know where the leads are supposed to drop, if they aren't a 100% drop rate, it gets old real fast.
The drop rates really are too bad, especially for some more difficult and singulary tasks. If it's relatively low for, let's say, killing wolves, it's not that horrible - you'll come across them all the time. But the same low drop rate for, let's say, the boss of a group dungeon?! I literally had all parts of the Dwemer wolf mount for years, except for the last one - that was supposed to drop from the final boss in Darkshade Caverns 2. Ran that several times, got fed up with it, gave up the whole thing. In the end I could buy the last missing part from the watchling trader in the Archive.
Although I now wonder: Did I buy the part or the lead? I honestly can't remember. And if I bought the part, did I get a codex entry for it or not? If so, buying parts would be a way to get all entries, bit by bit (very slowly, as I don't find Archive that interesting either, to be honest; same problem as ever - too repetative, no big narration). If not, then, yes, some parts will remain empty for me forever.But isn't hiding behind a facade and keeping his emotions in check very Altmer of him? Or, failing that, very Psijic. I don't deny he's doing that to some extent, but I do wonder how much of it comes from him, and how much from cultural expectations.
I wouldn't say it's typical Altmer. They have their etiquette, but I've come across so many displays of emotion on Summerset that didn't seem to bother people much. I've seen Altmer being totally disgusted or even distraught by talk of something horribly dirty (the sewers it was), one feeling dishonored and demanding a duel (or how was that?), and add to that the usual haughtiness... I wouldn't say that's lacking emotion.
The Psijics? They have their neutral observer stance, but there's a lorebook that mentions one of the lessons there (wasn't it even Sil who was teaching?) and then they obviously allow relationships and marriage, if we think of Valsirenn... Didn't she even have a child (you know, one of these rare small lifeforms we never see in this game)? It all doesn't sound that emotionless, stoic and detached either.
So I do think it's more of a Vanny thing.I have wondered why he can't free himself, too. Maybe he feels there's no point to it yet, what with impenetrable Wall and all?
Then his imprisonment can't be that bad... Well, we don't even know how exactly it looks like. I somehow bet it will be some trope-y "dark moldy cell" location... although something else might be more plausible, actually? Truly depends on whether a certain encounter has taken place now or not.Maybe the moment we take down the wall, he'll show up and tell us it took us long enough.
It would be relieving to find him like that, free and in a good condition, but on the other hand it wouldn't be the most interesting story.That's a good question. For most of that time, Mannimarco was on Tamriel, wasn't he? Ingratiating himself with various courts and emperors and building up power.
Most probably, although we factually know nothing about that time. Yet. That's truly something I'd like to see them elaborate on.Maybe Vanny didn't really start looking for him until the Worm Cult got big
Do you really think he would have never tried?and by then Mannimarco was spending most of his time in Coldharbour.
In his castle. Creating statues of bald human men. Maybe that's another of his enigmatic hobbies.Or maybe Vanny couldn't get anyone to believe him about Mannimarco. What if he tried to warn people, and they brushed him off?
Who would have had the better credibility? When they arrived on the mainland, they were both just young men. Talented mages maybe, but not much else. Would the average person have known that they were Psijics? Well, doesn't actually matter, as both had that background. So what could have made Mannimarco more believable? His rhetoric skills alone?It is odd, though, that the Great Mage wouldn't have crossed paths with the powerful court advisor in all those years.
How long did it take him until people called him the Great Mage, though?The lounging guy in Solstice is with the Mages Guild. I found him rather amusing. He said something like, "Don't tell the fighters guild, but we got the better quarters." I thought: oh, good thing you warned me, because gossiping with the fighters guild members is my favorite pastime.
He's amusing, but... he certainly doesn't leave a good impression.There's one guy working in that guild, downstairs guarding the dead Hadolid. Par for the course with that guild.
They're all rather unusual, which again makes me wonder whether there might still be some lasting influence by Sheogorath.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭I still like to close out dolmens I come across in my wanderings (absent any quest to do so) because I remember back when they were difficult for me, and I like that I can solo them now.
I think I suffer a bit from dolmen fatigue from that first jubilee event where I ran them for over 15 hours, I think, and without the expected drop... That wasn't the best experience.
Ah, yeah, that would do it. I didn't participate in that aspect of the jubilee, as I wasn't very interested in the style pages.No, I don't have that achievement yet either. I didn't even get it back when you could do all the dailies every day. But those are easy for me to ignore, since I never wanted the pet you can get from those fragments.
Funny thing is, I think I have all parts. And it wasn't a pet, but just a emote, I think? Or am I thinking about the wrong dailies now?
I thought it was the voriplasm pet, but I could be mistaken. Whatever it is, I don't have it. I think.Yeah, there's so much luck that comes with leads. While I would like to complete all the antiquities, because I find the musings on them by the circle members quite interesting, I've accepted I never will. Even if I do know where the leads are supposed to drop, if they aren't a 100% drop rate, it gets old real fast.
The drop rates really are too bad, especially for some more difficult and singulary tasks. If it's relatively low for, let's say, killing wolves, it's not that horrible - you'll come across them all the time. But the same low drop rate for, let's say, the boss of a group dungeon?! I literally had all parts of the Dwemer wolf mount for years, except for the last one - that was supposed to drop from the final boss in Darkshade Caverns 2. Ran that several times, got fed up with it, gave up the whole thing. In the end I could buy the last missing part from the watchling trader in the Archive.
Although I now wonder: Did I buy the part or the lead? I honestly can't remember. And if I bought the part, did I get a codex entry for it or not? If so, buying parts would be a way to get all entries, bit by bit (very slowly, as I don't find Archive that interesting either, to be honest; same problem as ever - too repetative, no big narration). If not, then, yes, some parts will remain empty for me forever.
I think you buy the leads. I haven't spent a lot of time in the archive, but I did have enough currency to buy an antiquity lead once. I think I have about half the parts for the Dwemer wolf mount. I wouldn't mind having that mount, and from time to time I hit up some of the places I know have the leads I'm missing, but they don't drop, and then I forget about it for awhile.But isn't hiding behind a facade and keeping his emotions in check very Altmer of him? Or, failing that, very Psijic. I don't deny he's doing that to some extent, but I do wonder how much of it comes from him, and how much from cultural expectations.
I wouldn't say it's typical Altmer. They have their etiquette, but I've come across so many displays of emotion on Summerset that didn't seem to bother people much. I've seen Altmer being totally disgusted or even distraught by talk of something horribly dirty (the sewers it was), one feeling dishonored and demanding a duel (or how was that?), and add to that the usual haughtiness... I wouldn't say that's lacking emotion.
The Psijics? They have their neutral observer stance, but there's a lorebook that mentions one of the lessons there (wasn't it even Sil who was teaching?) and then they obviously allow relationships and marriage, if we think of Valsirenn... Didn't she even have a child (you know, one of these rare small lifeforms we never see in this game)? It all doesn't sound that emotionless, stoic and detached either.
So I do think it's more of a Vanny thing.
I didn't mean Altmer lack emotion, just that they do try to keep themselves well in hand in most situations. And the Psijics do have a general stance of not keeping emotional attachments to your homeland, to make you a better observer. I don't think they're emotionless, either. But coming from two cultures that value keeping yourself in check could have had a stronger influence on him particularly, since he might have had a natural tendency towards that, given his childhood.
I agree he takes it to the extreme; I was just trying to get at why, and what all might have influenced him.
The Altmer who did the duel with the Orc wasn't the one demanding it--that was the Orc, who was offended by something the Altmer said. The Altmer was mostly dismissive and condescending and I got the idea we were supposed to side with the Orc.I have wondered why he can't free himself, too. Maybe he feels there's no point to it yet, what with impenetrable Wall and all?
Then his imprisonment can't be that bad... Well, we don't even know how exactly it looks like. I somehow bet it will be some trope-y "dark moldy cell" location... although something else might be more plausible, actually? Truly depends on whether a certain encounter has taken place now or not.
We know they moved him from Coldharbour to the eastern part of Solstice (he says that directly in Li-Xal pass). We know he has some ally. And we know his captors started getting suspicious at what he was up to. That doesn't sound like he was just in a cell the whole time. Then, of course, when Mannimarco gets back to HQ and finds out who they have prisoner...who knows.
No, it wouldn't. But it would be more in line with how powerful he is meant to be.That's a good question. For most of that time, Mannimarco was on Tamriel, wasn't he? Ingratiating himself with various courts and emperors and building up power.
Most probably, although we factually know nothing about that time. Yet. That's truly something I'd like to see them elaborate on.
Me, too.
So, I don't know how quickly or well information travels on Tamriel. Realistically, I mean. When Iachesis banished Mannimarco from Artaeum, did he send him to some random location on Tamriel? When Vanny left, was he immediately looking for Mannimarco? How easy would it have been for him, at that time, to figure out where Mannimarco was? How secretive was Mannimarco being? When he did start to make a name for himself among the noble and elite of Tamriel, was Vanny up on all the court gossip? Vanny was also busy founding the Mages Guild, wasn't he?
I don't know. There's a lot of unknown information and time gaps. It could have been that Vanny was always, in part, keeping an eye out for information on Mannimarco, but without knowing how well or quickly information traveled, it's hard to say how easy it was for him to find out anything.
I forgot about those statues for minute. How did I forget about them? They're so weird.Or maybe Vanny couldn't get anyone to believe him about Mannimarco. What if he tried to warn people, and they brushed him off?
Who would have had the better credibility? When they arrived on the mainland, they were both just young men. Talented mages maybe, but not much else. Would the average person have known that they were Psijics? Well, doesn't actually matter, as both had that background. So what could have made Mannimarco more believable? His rhetoric skills alone?
Supposedly he is one smooth talker, so that might be it. But I was thinking it wasn't until Mannimarco gained some fame and prestige that Vanny would have even known who to try to warn, and by then they might have been too firmly under Mannimarco's charismatic sway to pay him any heed.
I don't know. I figured it was more something he just called himself. Does anyone else call him that (except for us, on these forums)?The lounging guy in Solstice is with the Mages Guild. I found him rather amusing. He said something like, "Don't tell the fighters guild, but we got the better quarters." I thought: oh, good thing you warned me, because gossiping with the fighters guild members is my favorite pastime.
He's amusing, but... he certainly doesn't leave a good impression.
No, but...considering your opinion of the Mages Guild, could anyone make that great of an impression?
Oh, probably. It's unlikely they could get every trace of Sheogorath out of Eyevea, and apparently every mage spends a lot of time there. So, yeah, they're all infected by the Mad God.0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ah, yeah, that would do it. I didn't participate in that aspect of the jubilee, as I wasn't very interested in the style pages.
It was really a astounding design decision, because it showed rather fast that many people felt rather annoyed and discouraged after grinding for hours and not getting the drops - and I didn't find that unexpected, since... I mean, who wants to grind for one item for over 10 hours, without possibly even getting it in the end?
Most of all I was interested in Sil's staff which took me I think about 8 hours, then I got Nerevar's sword (that was rather fast, I was fishing for maybe 15 or 20 minutes or so), then I tried to get the replica of the Staff of Worms, and then, after spending my whole play time of several evenings on dolmens, the event was over. So I ended up with 2 of the style pages and couldn't even try to get the rest.
I got them in the following event where they dropped much faster, of course, but really wondered: Why that unnecessary frustration during the first event? I have the impression that there's a big effort on keeping play times high - by giving players lots of repetative tasks, by letting them grind for items, and to some extent, I think that's fine (and also part of this game's genre). But there's a point when it feels overdone and rather frustrating. There's so much content now that falls into the repetative category that might feel like doing chores at some point: Daily crafting (and, related to that: master writs and surveys), zones dailies for the achievement or for leveling companion skill lines, the usual set drop grind, public dungeon collectible grind, antiquity grind, Archive grind for currency, daily endeavors, sometimes golden pursuits, sometimes always the same or same few daily event quests for the daily event tickets,... Of course you don't have to do anything of that. But if you "need"/want the currency, you have to do these, in some cases like events and endeavors/pursuits even in a specific pre-defined timeframe, and I find it has gotten a bit much, especially if compared to unique content.
I fully understand that one-time (per character) content is more costly to produce in comparison, but I think the main question should be: What keeps the players interested? Of course my view may be biased because I tend to flock with other lore and story people, but I have the impression that endless repetitions, fetch quests and grind are not what people play ESO for. So if it's just that, that's not keeping them playing regularly. I know a whole bunch of people who only returned after they new chapter release to play the new story content, then maybe did something repetative in ESO for a while, and then disappeared again for the next 4 or 5 months or so. And some have then even given up ESO altogether at some point.I thought it was the voriplasm pet, but I could be mistaken. Whatever it is, I don't have it. I think.
Was it that? I have it, and I called it Lime. Very creative, I knowI think you buy the leads. I haven't spent a lot of time in the archive, but I did have enough currency to buy an antiquity lead once.
I bought that last Dwemer wolf part and all book furnishings that I was still missing at that time - that was my main currency sink at the Archive so far (and the only reason I kept playing it, because yes, also this was something that got uninteresting after a short while; at first, you're still curious about the bosses you fight and the side quests, and the watchlings' comments are amusing, but after at most two weeks or so, it's also just repetative). I know there's still a lot of other furnishings... but the motivation still has dropped a lot after I had all the books. Now they'll probably add new ones from the new zone later, so I should keep a bit of currency on hand, but it doesn't feel urgent right now.The Altmer who did the duel with the Orc wasn't the one demanding it--that was the Orc, who was offended by something the Altmer said. The Altmer was mostly dismissive and condescending and I got the idea we were supposed to side with the Orc.
I have the feeling that they often rely on characters being annoying somehow so we'd have a motivation to act against them... For me, it usually doesn't work. The whole "You'll love to hate the Worm Cult!" thing also didn't work. Yes, they kill people to collect their souls, but doesn't every random bandit using a soul gem do the same, although in smaller scope? I'm not particularly enraged by that bandit, and the scope doesn't change it.We know they moved him from Coldharbour to the eastern part of Solstice (he says that directly in Li-Xal pass).
Nah, it was "a place looking like Coldharbour, but not quite", which was the first hint on how Eastern Solstice looks like, if I remember right? So they've always been keeping him there, somewhere. Unless there was another dialogue I can't remember right now.We know he has some ally. And we know his captors started getting suspicious at what he was up to. That doesn't sound like he was just in a cell the whole time.
If he knows how the landscape looks like and there are other prisoners present, it sounds more like some outdoor location. Some type of prisoner camp, although that leads to the question once more why the Great Mage is unable to flee from there.Then, of course, when Mannimarco gets back to HQ and finds out who they have prisoner...who knows.
Maybe the big surprise of Part 2 will be that he's still confusedly roaming the Solsticean landscape... for another 10 years. Disoriented and bewilderedNo, it wouldn't. But it would be more in line with how powerful he is meant to be.
Tamriel's most powerful book club leader.So, I don't know how quickly or well information travels on Tamriel. Realistically, I mean. When Iachesis banished Mannimarco from Artaeum, did he send him to some random location on Tamriel? When Vanny left, was he immediately looking for Mannimarco? How easy would it have been for him, at that time, to figure out where Mannimarco was? How secretive was Mannimarco being?
All possible interpretations very much depend on whether Mannimarco still had some family connections or not. Makes a big difference if he could return to them (even if they might have been ashamed of his expulsion from the order... maybe; we don't know their stance on necromancy) or whether he truly was wandering Tamriel alone for years. Lots of stories that could be told about that time.When he did start to make a name for himself among the noble and elite of Tamriel, was Vanny up on all the court gossip? Vanny was also busy founding the Mages Guild, wasn't he?
He was, but I do believe that finding Mannimarco was still one of his main goals at that time. He expected it not to end well so he most probably had in mind to prevent his rise to power - as early as possible, not when it's already almost too late.I forgot about those statues for minute. How did I forget about them? They're so weird.
If he has another castle now, I fully want to see hints on his Vanny obsession. No bald humans anymore, give us weird statues of Vanny! Whether made from corpses or not.Supposedly he is one smooth talker, so that might be it. But I was thinking it wasn't until Mannimarco gained some fame and prestige that Vanny would have even known who to try to warn, and by then they might have been too firmly under Mannimarco's charismatic sway to pay him any heed.
"Your court wizard is a vile necromancer!" - "Impossible, he writes such nice poetry."I don't know. I figured it was more something he just called himself. Does anyone else call him that (except for us, on these forums)?
I just checked through the search fuction on UESP: Apparently, quest log descriptions and achievement texts seem to use it quite often, but characters? Not really.No, but...considering your opinion of the Mages Guild, could anyone make that great of an impression?
Well, even if it's hard to believe, I don't think the Mages Guild's sole purpose of existence is to impress me They might be interested in leaving a positive impression on other people as well. Like royalty, or townsfolk that is supposed to buy their stuff or give them tasks, although that doesn't seem to work that well,...Oh, probably. It's unlikely they could get every trace of Sheogorath out of Eyevea, and apparently every mage spends a lot of time there. So, yeah, they're all infected by the Mad God.
Good to know we Telvanni don't suffer from that problem.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭Ah, yeah, that would do it. I didn't participate in that aspect of the jubilee, as I wasn't very interested in the style pages.
It was really a astounding design decision, because it showed rather fast that many people felt rather annoyed and discouraged after grinding for hours and not getting the drops - and I didn't find that unexpected, since... I mean, who wants to grind for one item for over 10 hours, without possibly even getting it in the end?
Most of all I was interested in Sil's staff which took me I think about 8 hours, then I got Nerevar's sword (that was rather fast, I was fishing for maybe 15 or 20 minutes or so), then I tried to get the replica of the Staff of Worms, and then, after spending my whole play time of several evenings on dolmens, the event was over. So I ended up with 2 of the style pages and couldn't even try to get the rest.
I got them in the following event where they dropped much faster, of course, but really wondered: Why that unnecessary frustration during the first event? I have the impression that there's a big effort on keeping play times high - by giving players lots of repetative tasks, by letting them grind for items, and to some extent, I think that's fine (and also part of this game's genre). But there's a point when it feels overdone and rather frustrating. There's so much content now that falls into the repetative category that might feel like doing chores at some point: Daily crafting (and, related to that: master writs and surveys), zones dailies for the achievement or for leveling companion skill lines, the usual set drop grind, public dungeon collectible grind, antiquity grind, Archive grind for currency, daily endeavors, sometimes golden pursuits, sometimes always the same or same few daily event quests for the daily event tickets,... Of course you don't have to do anything of that. But if you "need"/want the currency, you have to do these, in some cases like events and endeavors/pursuits even in a specific pre-defined timeframe, and I find it has gotten a bit much, especially if compared to unique content.
I fully understand that one-time (per character) content is more costly to produce in comparison, but I think the main question should be: What keeps the players interested? Of course my view may be biased because I tend to flock with other lore and story people, but I have the impression that endless repetitions, fetch quests and grind are not what people play ESO for. So if it's just that, that's not keeping them playing regularly. I know a whole bunch of people who only returned after they new chapter release to play the new story content, then maybe did something repetative in ESO for a while, and then disappeared again for the next 4 or 5 months or so. And some have then even given up ESO altogether at some point.
I really wasn't bothered by the style page drop rate the first go-round because, as I mentioned, I wasn't particularly interested in the pages, but I did see how it really ruined the event for a lot of people. I don't know why they made the drop rate so miserly, and then the next year made it so easy. They really should have made all those achievements factor in to the drop rate the first year. I would guess miscalculation on their part--either with the drop rate, or how well people would enjoy it.
Repeatable quests have become a staple of MMOs. It's a side effect of how quickly players consume content that takes so long to produce (the stories and one-time quests). In my earlier MMO days, I had more tolerance for repeatable quests; these days, I more or less ignore them until they align with what I want to do anyway. Otherwise it does become just a chore list.I think you buy the leads. I haven't spent a lot of time in the archive, but I did have enough currency to buy an antiquity lead once.
I bought that last Dwemer wolf part and all book furnishings that I was still missing at that time - that was my main currency sink at the Archive so far (and the only reason I kept playing it, because yes, also this was something that got uninteresting after a short while; at first, you're still curious about the bosses you fight and the side quests, and the watchlings' comments are amusing, but after at most two weeks or so, it's also just repetative). I know there's still a lot of other furnishings... but the motivation still has dropped a lot after I had all the books. Now they'll probably add new ones from the new zone later, so I should keep a bit of currency on hand, but it doesn't feel urgent right now.
When they announced the infinite archive, I wasn't very interested in it. I eventually gave it a go, and now and then I pop in to see if I find it any better, but it's just not for me.The Altmer who did the duel with the Orc wasn't the one demanding it--that was the Orc, who was offended by something the Altmer said. The Altmer was mostly dismissive and condescending and I got the idea we were supposed to side with the Orc.
I have the feeling that they often rely on characters being annoying somehow so we'd have a motivation to act against them... For me, it usually doesn't work. The whole "You'll love to hate the Worm Cult!" thing also didn't work. Yes, they kill people to collect their souls, but doesn't every random bandit using a soul gem do the same, although in smaller scope? I'm not particularly enraged by that bandit, and the scope doesn't change it.
In point of fact, players collect souls all the time. What's funny to me is when we kill cultists around soul reapers, and then their souls go into the reapers, but apparently that doesn't bother us. Sure, we dismantle the reaper afterwards, but we also just consigned the souls of the cultists to whatever being part of the Writhing Wall entails.We know they moved him from Coldharbour to the eastern part of Solstice (he says that directly in Li-Xal pass).
Nah, it was "a place looking like Coldharbour, but not quite", which was the first hint on how Eastern Solstice looks like, if I remember right? So they've always been keeping him there, somewhere. Unless there was another dialogue I can't remember right now.
The "Coldharbour, but not" line was in the prologue. In the pass, during one of his wavering projection talks, he states directly they moved him from Coldharbour to Solstice. So it's possible the portal that kidnapped him took him to Coldharbour, and then they moved him quickly to Solstice by the time we talked to him on Stirk. Or one of the dialogues was an oversight.We know he has some ally. And we know his captors started getting suspicious at what he was up to. That doesn't sound like he was just in a cell the whole time.
If he knows how the landscape looks like and there are other prisoners present, it sounds more like some outdoor location. Some type of prisoner camp, although that leads to the question once more why the Great Mage is unable to flee from there.
Because he's got plot chains around him.
Lol, right? I mean, whose job is it to bring him up to speed on what's been going on? Maybe whatever's left of Wormblood can do that.So, I don't know how quickly or well information travels on Tamriel. Realistically, I mean. When Iachesis banished Mannimarco from Artaeum, did he send him to some random location on Tamriel? When Vanny left, was he immediately looking for Mannimarco? How easy would it have been for him, at that time, to figure out where Mannimarco was? How secretive was Mannimarco being?
All possible interpretations very much depend on whether Mannimarco still had some family connections or not. Makes a big difference if he could return to them (even if they might have been ashamed of his expulsion from the order... maybe; we don't know their stance on necromancy) or whether he truly was wandering Tamriel alone for years. Lots of stories that could be told about that time.
That makes me wonder why those stories haven't been told.When he did start to make a name for himself among the noble and elite of Tamriel, was Vanny up on all the court gossip? Vanny was also busy founding the Mages Guild, wasn't he?
He was, but I do believe that finding Mannimarco was still one of his main goals at that time. He expected it not to end well so he most probably had in mind to prevent his rise to power - as early as possible, not when it's already almost too late.
Another gap in lore knowledge. Maybe Vanny was waiting until he felt strong enough to confront Mannimarco.
I'd prefer not. Standard Vanny statues would be fine.Supposedly he is one smooth talker, so that might be it. But I was thinking it wasn't until Mannimarco gained some fame and prestige that Vanny would have even known who to try to warn, and by then they might have been too firmly under Mannimarco's charismatic sway to pay him any heed.
"Your court wizard is a vile necromancer!" - "Impossible, he writes such nice poetry."
Lol...yeah, something like that!No, but...considering your opinion of the Mages Guild, could anyone make that great of an impression?
Well, even if it's hard to believe, I don't think the Mages Guild's sole purpose of existence is to impress me They might be interested in leaving a positive impression on other people as well. Like royalty, or townsfolk that is supposed to buy their stuff or give them tasks, although that doesn't seem to work that well,...
I always figured they knew their position and reputation was intact. They're the Mages Guild. They have no competitors. They don't need to be at the top of their game. Ever.
Not Sheogorath-induced madness, no.
0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Repeatable quests have become a staple of MMOs. It's a side effect of how quickly players consume content that takes so long to produce (the stories and one-time quests). In my earlier MMO days, I had more tolerance for repeatable quests; these days, I more or less ignore them until they align with what I want to do anyway. Otherwise it does become just a chore list.
Not sure if it would be technically possible, but maybe something like Skyrim's "Radiant" system could help with introducing more variety in daily quests. With the quests being made up from a bigger list of randomized items and locations.When they announced the infinite archive, I wasn't very interested in it. I eventually gave it a go, and now and then I pop in to see if I find it any better, but it's just not for me.
I first wasn't interested at first, then gave it a try and liked the watchling comments and found some of the furnishings interesting, but let's say it became repetative fast. And adding some new backdrop or boss once a year or so doesn't change much about that either, unfortunately. Maybe it's nice to play again for a few days then, but then it's also getting boring again.In point of fact, players collect souls all the time. What's funny to me is when we kill cultists around soul reapers, and then their souls go into the reapers, but apparently that doesn't bother us. Sure, we dismantle the reaper afterwards, but we also just consigned the souls of the cultists to whatever being part of the Writhing Wall entails.
That's probably okay because they're "the evil ones".The "Coldharbour, but not" line was in the prologue. In the pass, during one of his wavering projection talks, he states directly they moved him from Coldharbour to Solstice. So it's possible the portal that kidnapped him took him to Coldharbour, and then they moved him quickly to Solstice by the time we talked to him on Stirk. Or one of the dialogues was an oversight.
So first, they took him to a place that looked liked Coldharbour but wasn't Coldharbour but probably Solstice, then they transported him to actual Coldharbour, and then back to Solstice? That would be a lot of... portalling. Looks more like an oversight to me.Lol, right? I mean, whose job is it to bring him up to speed on what's been going on? Maybe whatever's left of Wormblood can do that.
I just hope Mannimarco isn't that confused that he ends up like the spirit of King Lysandus we saw in TES2 Daggerfall: Screaming nothing more than "Vengeance!" the whole time and randomly floating around at night. Well, minus the floating. Maybe.That makes me wonder why those stories haven't been told.
They would make Mannimarco feel more relatable, I guess. Possibly they think it wouldn't fare well for the concept of the big evil cultist antagonist if his background story could be interpreted as some gifted young man who was expelled from a promising institution, having ruined all career chances and his future by doing some silly forbidden things (which is not uncommon at a certain age), then maybe getting scorned and rejected by his family for it, and wandering around homeless. No matter how much he overstepped, most of all, I would feel pity.I'd prefer not. Standard Vanny statues would be fine.
How would they look like? I'm not sure whether Mannimarco would just create some standard Vanny statue.Lol...yeah, something like that!
It's strange actually. Over the years (And maybe even from his early upbringing, I'm not sure right now whether he wasn't born to some noble family?) Mannimarco must have become quite accustomed to court life and to the finer aspects of existence. I'd think that would also reflect in his interests and hobbies a bit. It would be strange if there was no trace of this in his later life. I mean, yes, in Oblivion he lives barefoot in a cave... But what about the time before that?I always figured they knew their position and reputation was intact. They're the Mages Guild. They have no competitors. They don't need to be at the top of their game. Ever.
Until a competitor shows up. Which might also be an interesting story, although predictable of course, since we know which guild will remain at the end.Not Sheogorath-induced madness, no.
I still consider myself rather sane, especially in comparison to the everyday human madness one encounters @Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭The "Coldharbour, but not" line was in the prologue. In the pass, during one of his wavering projection talks, he states directly they moved him from Coldharbour to Solstice. So it's possible the portal that kidnapped him took him to Coldharbour, and then they moved him quickly to Solstice by the time we talked to him on Stirk. Or one of the dialogues was an oversight.
So first, they took him to a place that looked liked Coldharbour but wasn't Coldharbour but probably Solstice, then they transported him to actual Coldharbour, and then back to Solstice? That would be a lot of... portalling. Looks more like an oversight to me.
No, I think they only moved him once. When they kidnapped him with the floor portal, that probably went directly to Coldharbour. We had to muck about in the Earth Forge after that, and kill Mezzama, before we decided to set up the Stirk meeting. While we were doing that, they probably moved him to Solstice, so that by the time we got to Stirk, he was on the island and that's why he said, "like Coldharbour, but not." (But he didn't know it was the eastern half of Solstice until later.) But, I still think the "moved me from Coldharbour" line might have been an oversight.Lol, right? I mean, whose job is it to bring him up to speed on what's been going on? Maybe whatever's left of Wormblood can do that.
I just hope Mannimarco isn't that confused that he ends up like the spirit of King Lysandus we saw in TES2 Daggerfall: Screaming nothing more than "Vengeance!" the whole time and randomly floating around at night. Well, minus the floating. Maybe.
I mean, didn't he float in the final scene of the quest, when he took over Wormblood? Or was he just up on a ledge, a convenient ledge.That makes me wonder why those stories haven't been told.
They would make Mannimarco feel more relatable, I guess. Possibly they think it wouldn't fare well for the concept of the big evil cultist antagonist if his background story could be interpreted as some gifted young man who was expelled from a promising institution, having ruined all career chances and his future by doing some silly forbidden things (which is not uncommon at a certain age), then maybe getting scorned and rejected by his family for it, and wandering around homeless. No matter how much he overstepped, most of all, I would feel pity.
I wouldn't classify necromancy as "silly" forbidden things, not considering the cultures of Tamriel. And I don't know that we can be sure what age he was when he did them. But I agree that giving him more background could make him more relatable. He can still be a villain even if you understand his motivations.
Standard material is what I meant. No clue what poses or positions he might think up. Probably Vanny begging to be his apprentice, or something.Lol...yeah, something like that!
It's strange actually. Over the years (And maybe even from his early upbringing, I'm not sure right now whether he wasn't born to some noble family?) Mannimarco must have become quite accustomed to court life and to the finer aspects of existence. I'd think that would also reflect in his interests and hobbies a bit. It would be strange if there was no trace of this in his later life. I mean, yes, in Oblivion he lives barefoot in a cave... But what about the time before that?
Well, in Daggerfall he has a house and a coffin, at least. But here in the second era, we didn't see his living quarters in his Coldharbour castle. They might have been very nicely appointed, and maybe that's where his finer interests and hobbies were. Or maybe his dread secret is that he has the tastes and predilections of a commoner.I always figured they knew their position and reputation was intact. They're the Mages Guild. They have no competitors. They don't need to be at the top of their game. Ever.
Until a competitor shows up. Which might also be an interesting story, although predictable of course, since we know which guild will remain at the end.
Well, by the time of Skyrim the guild is no more. They do have a downfall coming.
Sanity is relative, right?0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No, I think they only moved him once. When they kidnapped him with the floor portal, that probably went directly to Coldharbour. We had to muck about in the Earth Forge after that, and kill Mezzama, before we decided to set up the Stirk meeting. While we were doing that, they probably moved him to Solstice, so that by the time we got to Stirk, he was on the island and that's why he said, "like Coldharbour, but not." (But he didn't know it was the eastern half of Solstice until later.) But, I still think the "moved me from Coldharbour" line might have been an oversight.
This actually makes me wonder whether part of Part 2 might actually also take place in Coldharbour, and not just on the island. Maybe indeed some kind of final or epilogue, if we get something like that (although that endangers Vanny again, I guess, because he could have found his end there - we know it's somewhere "in the North" and it's cold and snowing). The Castle of the Worm still exists, probably? Or might Molag Bal have destroyed it?
I can't really make sense yet how the Worm Cult could still or again be associated with Molag Bal after Mannimarco's betrayal, to be honest. Seems rather strange to me how Molag Bal would be willing to keep that going after what happened.
Of course I'm still hoping for a story where there's actually a separation, since we know for sure that the Worm Cult is not worshipping Molag Bal anymore in TES2, the next time we hear of them, on the Tamrielic timeline. But that would be a longer story on its own, I think. For just half of a chapter, it seems too much - or if they did that now, it would probably feel rushed and a little strange again, with too much happening in too little time.I mean, didn't he float in the final scene of the quest, when he took over Wormblood? Or was he just up on a ledge, a convenient ledge.
Was he? I think he just yelled Vengeance!!!!! something and disappeared.I wouldn't classify necromancy as "silly" forbidden things, not considering the cultures of Tamriel.
Depends on the specific culture. Some might find it generally horrendous, others might be less scrupled, especially when the dead aren't of their own kin. If a people enslaves the living of another culture, would they necessarily be bothered by using resurrected skeletons of that culture as workers? If they don't care much for a stranger's life and only see them as useful unpaid workers? I could see there being a fear towards "dark magic", but I don't think they'd respect a person in death that they didn't respect in life.And I don't know that we can be sure what age he was when he did them.
We know he was a novice of the Order. Not sure what age that would be with Psijics, but probably not extremely old if they accept students young (meaning as teenagers or young adults - and that seems to be the case; it doesn't seem to be a group that grown mer choose to join later in life). Vanny was 11 when he arrived on Artaeum, although he might have been a little younger than the others because he wasn't accepted the usual way. But I really don't think the usual novice is that much older.
If we look at real life Antiquity and Middle Ages, there are philosophical writings mentioning that the minimum age should be at least 15 - hinting on that in practice it was often even a few years younger. For chivalric orders, a usual age to join was around 12, by the way. Apprentices were also about 14, regionally also 12 or 13, when they left their family to begin an apprenticeship. Of course, on Nirn, habits may differ, but this influences my idea of course.But I agree that giving him more background could make him more relatable. He can still be a villain even if you understand his motivations.
Well, that's our way of thinking.Standard material is what I meant. No clue what poses or positions he might think up. Probably Vanny begging to be his apprentice, or something.
He wanted him an equal I know, that's a few centuries ago.Well, in Daggerfall he has a house and a coffin, at least.
Well, a barrow isn't exactly a house, although it's a little weatherproof at least. Then again, that also applies to a cave.But here in the second era, we didn't see his living quarters in his Coldharbour castle. They might have been very nicely appointed, and maybe that's where his finer interests and hobbies were. Or maybe his dread secret is that he has the tastes and predilections of a commoner.
Maybe he enjoys the "rogue necromancer camping in the wilderness" lifestyle and his bedchamber was empty except for lots of dust, a bedroll, and a dead skeever for a pillow. Well-prepared for his life in the next era in Cyrodiil.Well, by the time of Skyrim the guild is no more. They do have a downfall coming.
But not yet. It's still a few centuries, so if there was a story in ESO about a rivaling guild, we'd know who wins the competition.Sanity is relative, right?
“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams - this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness - and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” - from Don Quixote, by Cervantes.@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭No, I think they only moved him once. When they kidnapped him with the floor portal, that probably went directly to Coldharbour. We had to muck about in the Earth Forge after that, and kill Mezzama, before we decided to set up the Stirk meeting. While we were doing that, they probably moved him to Solstice, so that by the time we got to Stirk, he was on the island and that's why he said, "like Coldharbour, but not." (But he didn't know it was the eastern half of Solstice until later.) But, I still think the "moved me from Coldharbour" line might have been an oversight.
This actually makes me wonder whether part of Part 2 might actually also take place in Coldharbour, and not just on the island. Maybe indeed some kind of final or epilogue, if we get something like that (although that endangers Vanny again, I guess, because he could have found his end there - we know it's somewhere "in the North" and it's cold and snowing). The Castle of the Worm still exists, probably? Or might Molag Bal have destroyed it?
I can't really make sense yet how the Worm Cult could still or again be associated with Molag Bal after Mannimarco's betrayal, to be honest. Seems rather strange to me how Molag Bal would be willing to keep that going after what happened.
Of course I'm still hoping for a story where there's actually a separation, since we know for sure that the Worm Cult is not worshipping Molag Bal anymore in TES2, the next time we hear of them, on the Tamrielic timeline. But that would be a longer story on its own, I think. For just half of a chapter, it seems too much - or if they did that now, it would probably feel rushed and a little strange again, with too much happening in too little time.
I really don't understand why Molag Bal would be in league with the Worm Cult again. Or why he would want anything to do with Mannimarco that didn't involve an eternity of making him pay for his betrayal. A reverse planemeld might please him, but enough to team up again with Mannimarco?
Well, we'll see. I'm not sure how I feel about the sequel taking us back to Coldharbour, if that indeed happens.
I just finished the quest this evening, and the only time he's floating is when Wormblood is pulling his soul from Coldharbour (I assume that's what's happening) and then Mannimarco zips into his body, leaving Wormblood just enough time to inform us he hadn't intended to be the vessel. I still don't understand how they were able to pull his soul from Coldharbour to the Colored Rooms and, if they could, why Mannimarco didn't just go into his own body, because the sarcophagus was right there. Anyway, after that, Mannimarco is standing on the ledge to complete the ritual until we ruin it and then he just pops out after telling us he'll get us yet. No portal or anything. Just *blip* disappear. Interestingly enough, as soon as he takes over Wormblood's body, he knows who Farinor is. He addresses her by name and tells her to "take care of" us while he finishes his ritual.
Then, back in the throne room in Sunport, everyone mourns Gabrielle, only Prince Azah seems to remember Vanny's still captured, and the various cohorts give us exposition like, "Wormblood's probably gone and serves him right" and "without the gift of death, Mannimarco can't get to full power yet, so we've got some time." It struck me as odd how certain they seem of things they really have no way of knowing.I wouldn't classify necromancy as "silly" forbidden things, not considering the cultures of Tamriel.
Depends on the specific culture. Some might find it generally horrendous, others might be less scrupled, especially when the dead aren't of their own kin. If a people enslaves the living of another culture, would they necessarily be bothered by using resurrected skeletons of that culture as workers? If they don't care much for a stranger's life and only see them as useful unpaid workers? I could see there being a fear towards "dark magic", but I don't think they'd respect a person in death that they didn't respect in life.
I wasn't thinking they'd refrain out of respect. It just seems to me that if there were cultures in Tamriel that didn't mind necromancy, particularly of former slaves, we'd see it a lot more. But we don't. Mostly everyone seems to view necromancy as wrong. The only lore we got that it might be considered a vital aspect of magic and culture was Zerith-Var's quest, and yet that particular necromantic practice died out a long time ago. Clan Corelanya goes to great lengths to show everyone they've given up the practice, but even when they did participate in it, they were considered wrong for doing so, and not just by the Redguard invaders. There's just such a pervading sense of "necromancy is wrong" everywhere in Tamriel.And I don't know that we can be sure what age he was when he did them.
We know he was a novice of the Order. Not sure what age that would be with Psijics, but probably not extremely old if they accept students young (meaning as teenagers or young adults - and that seems to be the case; it doesn't seem to be a group that grown mer choose to join later in life). Vanny was 11 when he arrived on Artaeum, although he might have been a little younger than the others because he wasn't accepted the usual way. But I really don't think the usual novice is that much older.
If we look at real life Antiquity and Middle Ages, there are philosophical writings mentioning that the minimum age should be at least 15 - hinting on that in practice it was often even a few years younger. For chivalric orders, a usual age to join was around 12, by the way. Apprentices were also about 14, regionally also 12 or 13, when they left their family to begin an apprenticeship. Of course, on Nirn, habits may differ, but this influences my idea of course.
Was he still a novice when we saw those flashbacks in the Traitor's Vault? Because Vanny looks to be an adult there, so how long would someone remain a novice? It's hard to say what age they were meant to be in the flashbacks, particularly with the limitation of the character models.
Oh, it's a barrow? I thought you referred to him as the lich next door, so I thought house. Anyway, he doesn't seem to mind the muck.Sanity is relative, right?
“When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? Perhaps to be too practical is madness. To surrender dreams - this may be madness. Too much sanity may be madness - and maddest of all: to see life as it is, and not as it should be!” - from Don Quixote, by Cervantes.
I like that quote!0 -
Syldras✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I really don't understand why Molag Bal would be in league with the Worm Cult again. Or why he would want anything to do with Mannimarco that didn't involve an eternity of making him pay for his betrayal. A reverse planemeld might please him, but enough to team up again with Mannimarco?
Right. I don't find it plausible. Unless he does something really extraordinary in Part 2 to gain favor again, which might or might not be related to Mor Naril.
But then it looks like the Worm Cult is still worshipping Molag Bal right now, which I already find a bit strange after that happened.
And also, I'd wager we need to stop whatever the thing in Mor Naril is supposed to do, well, at least if we get the usual story formula with a happy ending. And I can't really believe that it will end with Mor Naril being complete again, Solstice's East remaining the way it is, and Vanny dead. Actually that's possibly one of the best arguments against Vanny's death: I don't believe they'd want to end a story like that. Unlike it becomes some "ultimate sacrifice" story once more (maybe he jumps into Mor Naril's super powered vacuum cleaner sound Planemeld doomsday machine thing - or whatever we'll find there - so it explodes because all of the magical energy the Great Mage supposedly contains). But the lore book on his death didn't sound like that.Well, we'll see. I'm not sure how I feel about the sequel taking us back to Coldharbour, if that indeed happens.
Would it even make a big difference to the East of Solstice? Honestly right now I imagine it to look rather similar, just with more Argonian structures and maybe some palm trees.I just finished the quest this evening, and the only time he's floating is when Wormblood is pulling his soul from Coldharbour (I assume that's what's happening) and then Mannimarco zips into his body, leaving Wormblood just enough time to inform us he hadn't intended to be the vessel.
I would have loved to hear a little annoyed Altmer swearing at that point.I still don't understand how they were able to pull his soul from Coldharbour to the Colored Rooms
Neither do I. If the ritual was the only thing necessary, why there and not earlier?and, if they could, why Mannimarco didn't just go into his own body, because the sarcophagus was right there.
Maybe indeed only dust was left of the body and no restoration ritual completed yet. And who wants to spend their life as a piece of lint?Anyway, after that, Mannimarco is standing on the ledge to complete the ritual until we ruin it and then he just pops out after telling us he'll get us yet. No portal or anything. Just *blip* disappear.
Maybe it was one of those character fade-outs because he just walked away? Where ever he would walk to, in that place...Interestingly enough, as soon as he takes over Wormblood's body, he knows who Farinor is. He addresses her by name and tells her to "take care of" us while he finishes his ritual.
So their minds might have indeed merged. Like it was the case with that other lich, what was his name? The one in Oblivion who merged with his friend. Wouldn't be the worst result. An interesting question would be whether that might have partially changed his character somehow.
Well, or maybe Mannimarco's spirit had been present for a bit longer, just observing the situation, and learnt of Farinor that way.Then, back in the throne room in Sunport, everyone mourns Gabrielle, only Prince Azah seems to remember Vanny's still captured
I found it sad. The saddest things that happened throughout the whole storyand the various cohorts give us exposition like, "Wormblood's probably gone and serves him right" and "without the gift of death, Mannimarco can't get to full power yet, so we've got some time." It struck me as odd how certain they seem of things they really have no way of knowing.
Yeah, right? Like they might be voicing lore from the writer's standpoint like an omniscient narrator, without factoring in what they as characters might be able to know. Or maybe they were just wording random assumptions rather confidently, although that wouldn't fit some of their characters.
Also, I wouldn't even assume that Wormblood is gone. Not sure now whether I should take that dialogue part as a fact, a statement made by the author, or really just an assumption.There's just such a pervading sense of "necromancy is wrong" everywhere in Tamriel.
I find it a bit strange. I mean of course I accept it if that's the lore, but it's astonishing that not more cultures utilize it. Since it seems so convenient if you'd need cheap workers, or if you could just use the fallen attackers to fight against their living kin in a war. Especially the latter seems better than sacrificing your own people, especially in a time where people didn't know something like "universal human rights", but focused very much on their own people.Was he still a novice when we saw those flashbacks in the Traitor's Vault? Because Vanny looks to be an adult there, so how long would someone remain a novice? It's hard to say what age they were meant to be in the flashbacks, particularly with the limitation of the character models.
According to Artaeum Lost, I'd say that a few years passed, but not a long time. I'd say under a decade. If they were adults, then young ones. I'm also not sure whether "scolding, then sending away" would be something you'd do with an, well, entirely adult person? Also, their behaviour was... well, we already talked about that.
Vanny looks like Vanny but with brown hair. He was a whole bit shorter than Mannimarco, I think - did it remain that way? Yes, I know, we never saw them standing next to each other after that (yet). But if he's taller now that would probably mean he was supposed to still be in his teens and growing back then. Probably we're thinking too much about those little details again now and they possibly didn't even consider these things... How's the voice actor in that scene, by the way? I'd say the German one did try to sound a lot softer and more anxious than usually.Oh, it's a barrow? I thought you referred to him as the lich next door, so I thought house. Anyway, he doesn't seem to mind the muck.
It's a barrow but I think it had some door nonetheless. I remember it had some above-ground masonry structure. Maybe a bit like a chambered cairn. And huge, so all types of cultists would fit in there, including the very important cultist dancers. Necrodancers basically.I like that quote!
The first sentence would make a good verse. It has a nice metrical scheme.
Edited by Syldras on 23 July 2025 05:00@Syldras | PC | EU
The forceful expression of will gives true honor to the Ancestors.
Sarayn Andrethi, Telvanni mage (Main)
Darvasa Andrethi, his "I'm NOT a Necromancer!" sister
Malacar Sunavarlas, Altmer Ayleid vampire
Soris Rethandus, a Sleeper not yet awake0 -
metheglyn✭✭✭✭✭I really don't understand why Molag Bal would be in league with the Worm Cult again. Or why he would want anything to do with Mannimarco that didn't involve an eternity of making him pay for his betrayal. A reverse planemeld might please him, but enough to team up again with Mannimarco?
Right. I don't find it plausible. Unless he does something really extraordinary in Part 2 to gain favor again, which might or might not be related to Mor Naril.
But then it looks like the Worm Cult is still worshipping Molag Bal right now, which I already find a bit strange after that happened.
And also, I'd wager we need to stop whatever the thing in Mor Naril is supposed to do, well, at least if we get the usual story formula with a happy ending. And I can't really believe that it will end with Mor Naril being complete again, Solstice's East remaining the way it is, and Vanny dead. Actually that's possibly one of the best arguments against Vanny's death: I don't believe they'd want to end a story like that. Unlike it becomes some "ultimate sacrifice" story once more (maybe he jumps into Mor Naril's super powered vacuum cleaner sound Planemeld doomsday machine thing - or whatever we'll find there - so it explodes because all of the magical energy the Great Mage supposedly contains). But the lore book on his death didn't sound like that.
If anyone jumps into a doomsday machine, it'd probably be Darien. I really don't think we'll see Vanny's death in this story. I had worried about it earlier, but from the way things are going, I'm guessing not. Plus, the article that started this whole thread was about having fun beating the bad guys, not having a complicated ending that leaves you feeling the victory came at a great price.Well, we'll see. I'm not sure how I feel about the sequel taking us back to Coldharbour, if that indeed happens.
Would it even make a big difference to the East of Solstice? Honestly right now I imagine it to look rather similar, just with more Argonian structures and maybe some palm trees.
I am curious to see how well this reverse planemeld has worked, and how far it has gone. Vanny says "like Coldharbour," so I expect quite a bit of similarity, but we also don't know how much of the place he's seen. In the first projection chat we have with him on Stirk, his hands are tied behind him; in all the projection chats we have with him on Solstice, they aren't. Makes me wonder again just how much freedom of movement he has over there.
I guess, since we scuppered their plans, they had to improvise. Wormblood does a lot of shouting orders in the Colored Rooms. "Teleport the sarcophagus!" "Prepare the ritual!"Anyway, after that, Mannimarco is standing on the ledge to complete the ritual until we ruin it and then he just pops out after telling us he'll get us yet. No portal or anything. Just *blip* disappear.
Maybe it was one of those character fade-outs because he just walked away? Where ever he would walk to, in that place...
He turns and takes three or four steps, in the direction of his sarcophagus, which is leaning against a wall. Then he's gone, and we're all just standing there.Interestingly enough, as soon as he takes over Wormblood's body, he knows who Farinor is. He addresses her by name and tells her to "take care of" us while he finishes his ritual.
So their minds might have indeed merged. Like it was the case with that other lich, what was his name? The one in Oblivion who merged with his friend. Wouldn't be the worst result. An interesting question would be whether that might have partially changed his character somehow.
Well, or maybe Mannimarco's spirit had been present for a bit longer, just observing the situation, and learnt of Farinor that way.
I would prefer it if it wasn't the total annihilation of Wormblood, but some kind of soul-meld or something interesting. It's possible Mannimarco could have heard Wormblood refer to Farinor while his soul was hovering. The whole set-up was rather strange and rushed.and the various cohorts give us exposition like, "Wormblood's probably gone and serves him right" and "without the gift of death, Mannimarco can't get to full power yet, so we've got some time." It struck me as odd how certain they seem of things they really have no way of knowing.
Yeah, right? Like they might be voicing lore from the writer's standpoint like an omniscient narrator, without factoring in what they as characters might be able to know. Or maybe they were just wording random assumptions rather confidently, although that wouldn't fit some of their characters.
Also, I wouldn't even assume that Wormblood is gone. Not sure now whether I should take that dialogue part as a fact, a statement made by the author, or really just an assumption.
I thought it might also be a narrative trick of sorts--have a character tell us a thing that later turns out to be untrue, but it's not like the character lied, they just didn't know for sure. I mean, it is Raz who tells us Wormblood's gone, and I'm not sure when he became so confident about the inner workings of body-swapping and soul exchanging. And Walks seems pretty sure Wormblood was going to use the gift of death to both resurrect Mannimarco and access Mor Naril. She takes great comfort in the idea that we prevented one of his plans from happening.There's just such a pervading sense of "necromancy is wrong" everywhere in Tamriel.
I find it a bit strange. I mean of course I accept it if that's the lore, but it's astonishing that not more cultures utilize it. Since it seems so convenient if you'd need cheap workers, or if you could just use the fallen attackers to fight against their living kin in a war. Especially the latter seems better than sacrificing your own people, especially in a time where people didn't know something like "universal human rights", but focused very much on their own people.
I guess it's just part of the lore they wanted for the world. Every time in game we encounter the idea of raising dead to fight against the living, we're meant to be shocked by the notion and it's always "the bad guys" who are doing it. I don't think they're always Worm Cult, either. In Stonefalls, at the fortress towards the end of the quest line, it's the Covenant that's doing it, I believe. But in that case they're just raising their own soldiers, not the enemy ones. And all throughout Glenumbra, Angof is making undead minions of all kinds.Was he still a novice when we saw those flashbacks in the Traitor's Vault? Because Vanny looks to be an adult there, so how long would someone remain a novice? It's hard to say what age they were meant to be in the flashbacks, particularly with the limitation of the character models.
According to Artaeum Lost, I'd say that a few years passed, but not a long time. I'd say under a decade. If they were adults, then young ones. I'm also not sure whether "scolding, then sending away" would be something you'd do with an, well, entirely adult person? Also, their behaviour was... well, we already talked about that.
Vanny looks like Vanny but with brown hair. He was a whole bit shorter than Mannimarco, I think - did it remain that way? Yes, I know, we never saw them standing next to each other after that (yet). But if he's taller now that would probably mean he was supposed to still be in his teens and growing back then. Probably we're thinking too much about those little details again now and they possibly didn't even consider these things... How's the voice actor in that scene, by the way? I'd say the German one did try to sound a lot softer and more anxious than usually.
I have a habit of focusing on the small details. I always want to know them. In his biography, Vanny could have easily said, "When I was eighteen, I discovered Mannimarco was a necromancer," or however he wants to rewrite the past. Which means, of course, we then couldn't take his word on his age. Bah!
Been a few years since I played through Traitor's Vault, but the to best of my memory, the voices sounded just like regular Mannimarco and Vanny. I'd have to play it again to say for sure, particularly as I've recently been listening a lot to current Vanny.Oh, it's a barrow? I thought you referred to him as the lich next door, so I thought house. Anyway, he doesn't seem to mind the muck.
It's a barrow but I think it had some door nonetheless. I remember it had some above-ground masonry structure. Maybe a bit like a chambered cairn. And huge, so all types of cultists would fit in there, including the very important cultist dancers. Necrodancers basically.
Hah, necrodancer: sounds like it should be a personality or costume in the crown store.
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