Do you think ZOS should rollback subclassing and focus on class balance instead?

moderatelyfatman

Now that the new MMO has been cancelled and the focus is now back on ESO, the way forward is going to be interesting. Do you think the future of ESO is in subclassing or returning to balancing classes with an eye to discrete new classes?

Cooperharley

No

They aren’t going to roll back subclassing. They’ve never, not once, rolled back a main feature. The best thing to do is give guided feedback on how to make the system better and not to keep asking for a rollback. Let’s be realistic and constructive here.

There’s just been 37 posts asking for this, and I get some people are unhappy with its implementation, but this specific option just won’t happen IMO.

Abelon

No

Just no. There is no "return to balanced classes" because there were NO balanced classes. Rolling back subclassing wouldn't bring back a balance that didn't exist. Is the balancing worse now? Sure. Means you gotta work on improving it. But ZoS were never good at balancing, subclassing or not.

And besides. They are trying to balance yet again with the new update. Do people like it? No. Why should they go rolling back major features and throwing hundreds of hours in the trash, to "focus on class balance" that everybody will once again crap on? The moment they do, there will spawn another million posts and polls trash talking the new direction. And then the new one. And then another one. Which is fine, but who in their right mind would go deleting content in exchange for... nothing?

colossalvoids

Yes

They won't do it though.

Ph1p

No

As someone who isn’t a fan of subclassing, I still don’t think ZOS should roll it back. They need to do what they should have done from the start:

• Balance it properly so that both multi-class and pure-class enthusiasts can enjoy the game
• Add meaningful trade-offs to subclassing into other lines - double skill and experience point costs are just extra grind, not a power trade-off
• Stop overshooting power creep and then nerf later - nobody likes having stuff taken away again, which is another reason why subclassing as a whole should stay as a feature

Bubosh

Yes

Revert it back and bring in actual new content as real new skill lines like guild or wpn lines and ofc make use of the already existing skill crafting system scribing and include more variety skills there too (we had already utility to get new skills introduced and didn't need chaos subclassing imo). But we all know zos never listened to any feedback almost same as for the pts feedback posts and they won't listen to this here at all either no matter what the vote outcome is.

L33T_BEANS

Yes

They won't roll it back until it affects their profits or overrall player count. I'll just wait for 'ESO Classic' like every other MMO.

Which is why I'm going to shout out Guild Wars 2 which nailed subclassing properly. Instead, ESO is pulling a Runescape and just ruining it. I'm sure once the noobs who enjoy spamming beam everywhere start getting bored of doing so, they'll start leaving too.

It took Jagex years to figure out they ruined Runescape, and now their 'classic' version has a higher population than their 'Improved' version. They even just flat-out finally admitted that MTX has ruined their game!

I don't know. I think this decision will pay off in the short-term at the cost of the long-term.

L_Nici

No

Its to late for a rollback, they should have listened before they actually launched it, now them and us have to deal with it.

Danikat

No

They've been balancing classes for over 10 years and players have never been happy with it (and yet always sure that reverting the latest major update would fix all the problems).

I'm not saying balance is perfect now or that it's not worth trying to balance classes, but I don't think reverting subclassing will contribute anything useful to the process.

Aylish

Yes

I doubt that they would do that but I wish they did…

Abelon

No

L33T_BEANS wrote: »

They won't roll it back until it affects their profits or overrall player count. I'll just wait for 'ESO Classic' like every other MMO.

Which is why I'm going to shout out Guild Wars 2 which nailed subclassing properly. Instead, ESO is pulling a Runescape and just ruining it. I'm sure once the noobs who enjoy spamming beam everywhere start getting bored of doing so, they'll start leaving too.

It took Jagex years to figure out they ruined Runescape, and now their 'classic' version has a higher population than their 'Improved' version. They even just flat-out finally admitted that MTX has ruined their game!

I don't know. I think this decision will pay off in the short-term at the cost of the long-term.

Most other MMOs don't have a classic, especially if they are newer. FFXIV doesn't have classic and never will. Guild Wars 2 doesn't have classic and never will. Obviously NW doesn't have one. SWTOR doesn't have one. Which MMOs have classic? WoW. Runescape hardly counts because osrs is a completely different game. OSRS isn't a "classic" offshoot of Runescape 3, feels weird to even classify it as such.

Classics don't make sense for most games. WoW underwent some major changes, including world changes during Cataclysm, that qualify it for such a version. It is also simply old and nostalgic enough to make the classic version profitable. FFXIV had the A Realm Reborn, but going back to pre ARR nobody would even consider, after all the whole game make over was to save it from certain death. Most other games haven't changed much. They add new story, new locations, rebalance classes, going back to some sort of previous version is hardly worthy of an entire separate game's upkeep, especially when nobody will play or pay it. Even the major updates ESO does are relatively minor in the end. Most of them are separate from the rest of the game and can frankly just not be engaged with whatsoever. Scribing? You could play without it, no issues. Companions? Who cares. Subclassing? You just keep your old 3 skill lines and play like nothing ever happened, plus/minus a few % worth of dps.

What version specifically would you propose ESO goes back to? Pre Tamriel Unlimited? The equivalent of going back to pre ffxiv's ARR? I don't think ZoS would ever even entertain the thought. Some arbitrary update after Tamriel Unlimited where your favourite class was powerful enough, and the classes you disliked were weak enough? Sure, but you'd need to consider that other people would then request a different version. And most importantly, you really think ZoS will be willing to pay for the upkeep of that version that a 100 people will play, maybe, if you're lucky?

Cooperharley

No

L_Nici wrote: »

Its to late for a rollback, they should have listened before they actually launched it, now them and us have to deal with it.

Even then, by the time we're seeing it in an announcement trailer or on PTS, it is WAY too late for that kind of thing. They're not going to just invalidate something they've been working on for quite some time. That's why we always see just little, baby tweaks on PTS instead of some of the more drastic stuff members of the community call for.

Something that COULD have been fixed back in U46 was the degree of power that they were introducing. A lot of the nerfs we're seeing with U47 should've been implemented before this all launched rather than giving players a bunch of power and then ripping it away.

The biggest criticism I have is the speed with which they balance on top of what they focus on. It's often confusing and takes SO LONG for them to change things that need to be changed so by the time they do, they're just dropping a cruise missile on things.

liliub17_ESO

Yes and no.

Balancing skills would be ideal. Retaining class identity would be ideal. Insuring each class is viable within the framework of the game would be ideal.

Before you blast me, the below are my observations and my opinions based upon those observations, with no malice intended or implied toward the devs or new players.

However, the path of the game devs for the last several years, increasingly so, has been the flashbang of shiny new to attract new players rather than to maintain a strong foundation. For inexplicable reasons, they seem to believe it's an either/or situation. That's why, also seemingly increasingly, the established players are being ignored ........ must attract new players many who, I'm sorry to say, seem to have short attention spans and only see the latest new whositwhatsit. It's endemic throughout society, not just games, so I suppose I can understand the devs' frantic pushing out content which doesn't really work well or seems incomplete, etc.

Will they roll subclassing back? No. It took what, three years, for them to finally admit that the original three absolutely separate factions in the game didn't work for player retention and then release TamOne? Yeah, beta testers told them ad nauseum that the original, while a cool concept, was a bad idea for longevity (among other game mechanics and other reasons). How many other less-than-satisfactory updates have been released and only had a few tweaks here and there for optics?

The game was never about "play however you like". On their end, it's about how many gold crowns fill their coffers because games are not cheap to make. On our end, it's about a few hours of enjoyment after a long day of reality. Ideally the two intersect to the mutual benefit of both, but ultimately with ESO the players are losing the battle.

Edited for clarification

Renato90085

Other

they should try balance both,and maybe give subclass same skill style
i mean ,whhich parallel universe 1 shadow,1 bone,2 Daedric 1 bear is zoo druid build
where are my wolf tiger guar spider combat pet

LunaFlora

No

no. You are not getting a rollback on an update or a new system.
Rollbacks are for when something goes wrong in the servers like a crash.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rollback_(data_management)

And ZOS' other mmo had other people working on it, it being cancelled doesn't really equal more focus on ESO. it's not like everyone at zos was working on both games constantly going back and forth.
it's just like ESO has different teams for art and combat.

Subclassing is here and zos has done balancing changes in u46 and now u47 too.
New classes can still happen and they will likely be more popular with Subclassing as any character can make use of the new classes.

unsure if no or yes are even useful answers to this thread? more like No and Yes.
No as in that's not how rollback works and Subclassing is not leaving.
Yes as in zos is clearly doing Class Balance, even if not everyone likes how they do it (but that's always the case).

FullMax

Other

Yes and no. The subclass system has already been introduced. It would be very stupid if it were simply removed. A new system has been introduced, so bring it to mind.

Sarannah

No

Keep subclassing, don't waste time and resources on balance as it is impossible to achieve(only fix broken/bugged skills).

FeedbackOnly

No

Majority of us like it.

Did you the top 1 percent doesn't control the game??

Cooperharley

No

Can we please, as a community, for the love of God, stop asking to remove subclassing. It. Is. Not. Going. To. Happen. Very frustrating to see these posts because there is no world where they ever do this. Give constructive criticism and directed feedback on how to make newly implemented systems better... so unhelpful.

Alinhbo_Tyaka

Other

In perfect world I would rather have not seen subclassing and had ZOS spend time bringing back unique class identities but that is water under the bridge. As a result I'll continue my practice of the last couple of years not caring about the latest whiz bang thing ZOS has pitched. I will only login if events have a reward I'm interested in or for a month of ESO+ to play the prior year's chapter.

GloatingSwine

Other

I think they should limit it to one skill line swapped at a time.

Then make sure that skill line passives are all as broadly valuable as the ones in Assassination so it isn't just always that.

CalamityCat

Other

It doesn't matter what we think, subclassing isn't going to be rolled back.

For that to happen, the devs would have to believe they've made such a huge mess that it warranted removal.

They would also have to care about pure classes. [Insert canned laughter... ]

Neither seems possible IMHO. There will be some poking and prodding of classes and gear while they make an attempt to balance the game. Whether the end result is actually fun for players remains to be seen. But I think the game direction is more about ZOS' vision than our feedback.

tomofhyrule

No

Subclassing is their big thing. They're not walking this back.

What they should do though it balance it though. It is a huge mess and they opened this can of worms, but there are ways that they could still balance it. Sure, it's harder now that it's in the wild, but there are still things they could do.

Even though I loathe Subclassing, I do think it's a nice thing for some people. I think it's good that people can customize their builds who want to... but I think that it needs to have been done in such a way that doesn't mean there is one good build and everything else is a meme.

SilverBride

Yes

I know it's just wishful thinking, but yes.

Morvan

No

As much as I was partially against this system before release, I can see how subclassing can be really great for the game, alongside skill styles you'll be able to give so much personality to a build, I'm not worried they'll ever take it away, but I'm glad we have it.

But yes, it does still have lots of balancing problems for sure, but I have hope ZOS will even out skill lines in power, given time.

Acapella75

Yes

Cooperharley wrote: »

Can we please, as a community, for the love of God, stop asking to remove subclassing. It. Is. Not. Going. To. Happen. Very frustrating to see these posts because there is no world where they ever do this. Give constructive criticism and directed feedback on how to make newly implemented systems better... so unhelpful.

People did that. They didn't listen. So while you feel it is "unhelpful", others clearly do not agree.

Acapella75

Yes

My vote is yes for the simple fact that they have nerfed "pure" classes to implement this. They even went a step further and nerfed most cool interactions subclassing would bring. The devs are tone deaf and dont listen to player feedback. Most of the end game community seem to know this game better than they do. After watching the PvP stream, it should be evident to all. The PTS exists simply to test stability of what they want to change, not get actual player feedback.

Desiato

No

I don't say this as an insult, I say this as a dude who has been there.

Your obsession isn't healthy and it's not going to make a difference. This isn't a 2005 MMO in which the forums are the center of the community. Whatever we agree or disagree on here is largely irrelevant.

We must respect the direction of the game is the prerogative of the developers. Many of us live in a representative democracy, but that doesn't mean everything can or should be democratized.

ZOS chose a path, most players have adapted to it, so they should stick with it. It WILL change again, because it always has to change, but probably not for a while.

What you're seeing in the forums isn't reflective of an unhappy community. Look at what happens when the servers go down for a couple of hours. There's instantly a 20 page thread about it.

There's a lot of unhappiness about u47 right now because MMO players never take reduced performance well, but not subclassing as a whole.

lostineternity

Yes

I voted YES, but I want subclassing to exist, although not this one poor, lazy, uninspired abomination we've gotten

Tandor

No

It can't be done, shouldn't be done, and won't be done.

Ingenon

No

ZOS should not roll back subclassing and focus on class balance. I believe that ZOS will never release an update that the majority of people on this forum think is balanced. I'm good with ZOS continuing to release new content and features, and to keep trying to improve this game, even if sometimes I disagree with them on the implementation.