Do you think ZOS should rollback subclassing and focus on class balance instead?

valenwood_vegan · July 13

They're not going to roll back subclassing. At this point, it would be far more productive to talk about ways to improve and balance the new system.

Parasaurolophus · July 13

Yes

Yes, I would like that. But I understand that it’s never going to happen.
The job of the combat team is to make balance good, and they have failed that every time over the course of all 11 years.
But the fact that it has always been bad is not a reason to tolerate that it has now become even worse.
I hate subclasses with all my soul. Right now the situation reminds me of the DoT rotation that came out - I think - together with Scalebreaker. It was awful, but few people remember it because (!) ZOS fixed it by the next update.
Maybe it wouldn’t be so bad if subclasses were implemented differently.
But the very idea of mixing closed systems seems pretty flawed to me.
Right now ZOS didn’t integrate closed systems - they just broke them and turned them into one big system.
And yeah, about pure classes - that’s now just as utopian as heavy attack builds.
Sure, there’s some niche build, but not a full playstyle.
Oh and by the way, that very stream that must not be named - it was even deleted from Twitch. And please, stop saying “perfect balance is impossible.” No one is asking for perfection - but other MMOs have good balance. It’s possible. Just not here.

ApoAlaia · July 13

No

Where I understand that there is a subset of players who for varying reasons think that their personal understanding of balance is of paramount importance that is definitely not me.

I am here to have fun; balance, may it be the dev's take on the subject or someone else's is a distant thought, when I give it a thought at all.

I played FO76 and a lot of the fun on the main game mode was sacrificed on the altar of 'balance' for the 'survival mode'; once they delivered balance however no one wanted to play that game mode and it was ultimately scrapped because players wanted 'balance but not like that'; they wanted 'balance that catered to their strengths and taste of what balance should be' and found 'balanced balance' boring.

Well, that and the absence of easy pickings. Just similarly skilled players with comparable levels of power. In other words, balance.

Radiate77 · July 13

No

Here’s another poll idea…

“Should players unhappy with the direction that ESO has been heading over the last few years find something else that makes them happy?”

CatoUnchained · July 13

Yes

ZOS does not revert changes no matter how unpopular or disliked or amount of negative feedback.

Parasaurolophus · July 13

Yes

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Where I understand that there is a subset of players who for varying reasons think that their personal understanding of balance is of paramount importance that is definitely not me.

I am here to have fun; balance, may it be the dev's take on the subject or someone else's is a distant thought, when I give it a thought at all.

I played FO76 and a lot of the fun on the main game mode was sacrificed on the altar of 'balance' for the 'survival mode'; once they delivered balance however no one wanted to play that game mode and it was ultimately scrapped because players wanted 'balance but not like that; I want balance that caters to my strengths and taste of what balance should be thank you very much. This balanced balance is boring'.

You are totally wrong, because the only way to balance subclasses in the form they exist now is to make the skills differ only cosmetically.
What’s fun about that kind of balance?

Radiate77 · July 13

No

I find this poll fascinating, really. These forums are ground zero for Subclassing complaints, as they don’t exist elsewhere… yet the data is showing that you guys are a vocal minority here too.

Even if you took all the free “Other” votes, it would still not be enough for “Yes” to outweigh “No”.

Grizzbeorn · July 13

No

Did they roll-back U35?

No, they didn't. And they aren't going to roll-back sub-classing.

valenwood_vegan · July 13

Radiate77 wrote: »

I find this poll fascinating, really. These forums are ground zero for Subclassing complaints, as they don’t exist elsewhere… yet the data is showing that you guys are a vocal minority here too.

Even if you took all the free “Other” votes, it would still not be enough for “Yes” to outweigh “No”.

Well to be fair, the poll asks a provocative and unreasonable question. If it asked whether one is happy with subclassing, the results might be a bit more relevant to your point.

CatoUnchained · July 13

Yes

Radiate77 wrote: »

I find this poll fascinating, really. These forums are ground zero for Subclassing complaints, as they don’t exist elsewhere… yet the data is showing that you guys are a vocal minority here too.

Even if you took all the free “Other” votes, it would still not be enough for “Yes” to outweigh “No”.

Even if it's only 1/3rd of the customers hate the change, that's a REALLY bad sign for the devs and the studio.

Radiate77 · July 13

No

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

I find this poll fascinating, really. These forums are ground zero for Subclassing complaints, as they don’t exist elsewhere… yet the data is showing that you guys are a vocal minority here too.

Even if you took all the free “Other” votes, it would still not be enough for “Yes” to outweigh “No”.

Even if it's only 1/3rd of the customers hate the change, that's a REALLY bad sign for the devs and the studio.

Most people are unhappy with the implementation, not the system itself. Who can blame them?

They didn’t balance anything to make way for that game changing update, in fact, these past few years saw some of the least balancing we’ve ever seen due to the backlash of U35, so instead of working towards a goal, we were thrown two sticks and told to put them in the sand and make a finish line.

Soarora · July 13

Yes

Subclassing as a concept: not bad, thought maybe we’d have more specialized… SUBclasses for thematic builds. Multiclassing as a concept: not bad in theory, but definitely screws with my gaming as a non-casual. The “subclassing” we got: bad execution.

Will they roll it back? No.
This poll seems to be muddled by people voting no just because ZOS has a 0% chance of rolling it back and not just because of their opinion.

ApoAlaia · July 13

No

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Where I understand that there is a subset of players who for varying reasons think that their personal understanding of balance is of paramount importance that is definitely not me.

I am here to have fun; balance, may it be the dev's take on the subject or someone else's is a distant thought, when I give it a thought at all.

I played FO76 and a lot of the fun on the main game mode was sacrificed on the altar of 'balance' for the 'survival mode'; once they delivered balance however no one wanted to play that game mode and it was ultimately scrapped because players wanted 'balance but not like that; I want balance that caters to my strengths and taste of what balance should be thank you very much. This balanced balance is boring'.

You are totally wrong, because the only way to balance subclasses in the form they exist now is to make the skills differ only cosmetically.
What’s fun about that kind of balance?

I think I might not have been very eloquent with my prose because I am quite OK without the illusion of balance.

I have reworded my original post to - hopefully - better reflect what I was trying to convey.

Asikoo · July 13

Yes

They will never roll back the game. There's too much pride in the mess they've made, and honestly, I truly think this will sink the game sooner or later. But anyway, Elder Scrolls VI is almost here, and ESO only needs to stay alive for another 1... maybe 2 years at most!

edit:
All these changes, crossplay, and all the other mess they made are just to prolong the game's life, nothing more than that.

L33T_BEANS · July 13

Yes

Abelon wrote: »

L33T_BEANS wrote: »

They won't roll it back until it affects their profits or overrall player count. I'll just wait for 'ESO Classic' like every other MMO.

Which is why I'm going to shout out Guild Wars 2 which nailed subclassing properly. Instead, ESO is pulling a Runescape and just ruining it. I'm sure once the noobs who enjoy spamming beam everywhere start getting bored of doing so, they'll start leaving too.

It took Jagex years to figure out they ruined Runescape, and now their 'classic' version has a higher population than their 'Improved' version. They even just flat-out finally admitted that MTX has ruined their game!

I don't know. I think this decision will pay off in the short-term at the cost of the long-term.

Most other MMOs don't have a classic, especially if they are newer. FFXIV doesn't have classic and never will. Guild Wars 2 doesn't have classic and never will. Obviously NW doesn't have one. SWTOR doesn't have one. Which MMOs have classic? WoW. Runescape hardly counts because osrs is a completely different game. OSRS isn't a "classic" offshoot of Runescape 3, feels weird to even classify it as such.

Classics don't make sense for most games. WoW underwent some major changes, including world changes during Cataclysm, that qualify it for such a version. It is also simply old and nostalgic enough to make the classic version profitable. FFXIV had the A Realm Reborn, but going back to pre ARR nobody would even consider, after all the whole game make over was to save it from certain death. Most other games haven't changed much. They add new story, new locations, rebalance classes, going back to some sort of previous version is hardly worthy of an entire separate game's upkeep, especially when nobody will play or pay it. Even the major updates ESO does are relatively minor in the end. Most of them are separate from the rest of the game and can frankly just not be engaged with whatsoever. Scribing? You could play without it, no issues. Companions? Who cares. Subclassing? You just keep your old 3 skill lines and play like nothing ever happened, plus/minus a few % worth of dps.

What version specifically would you propose ESO goes back to? Pre Tamriel Unlimited? The equivalent of going back to pre ffxiv's ARR? I don't think ZoS would ever even entertain the thought. Some arbitrary update after Tamriel Unlimited where your favourite class was powerful enough, and the classes you disliked were weak enough? Sure, but you'd need to consider that other people would then request a different version. And most importantly, you really think ZoS will be willing to pay for the upkeep of that version that a 100 people will play, maybe, if you're lucky?

No, actually I don't have much faith at all in them. Ask me that 4 years ago, and I'd have said a solid maybe despite their struggling to balance even back then. Now weaving is just pointless, everyone is some kind of blend of Arcanist soup which is just quite sad to me. For me this has ruined the game, and I'd tell you what it made me do, but the last time I did they literally removed the post because of a sentence among 6 paragraphs made them think it was a 'farewell' post. Ridiculous.

Lumenn · July 13

No

Nope. Class balance is never going to be right and just sends games spiraling to the grave when that straw finally hits(monk AC pants for me on my last game). Companies tend to focus and balance on the top 1% and I get it. They play the most, they live, eat, and breathe the game, so of course they're the ones you listen to on balance, and I can't even say for sure that's what happens here. ESO seems to have their own vision and it's beyond my ability to guess what that is.

If they do anything in my opinion that would result in a MAJOR improvement would be to reverse a previous decision, acknowledge that the game has evolved and new areas are being explored, and finally, finally, balance pvp and pve separately. That wouldn't solve all the issues of course, but that one move could possibly solve the biggest chunk regarding the horror everyone calls "class balance".

spartaxoxo · July 13

No

No. Lots of people enjoy subclassing and should be able to enjoy it. Main features have never been taken away and they have a reasonable expectation that the new build system that they like so much will remain in the game in some manner.

L33T_BEANS · July 13

Yes

Radiate77 wrote: »

I find this poll fascinating, really. These forums are ground zero for Subclassing complaints, as they don’t exist elsewhere… yet the data is showing that you guys are a vocal minority here too.

Even if you took all the free “Other” votes, it would still not be enough for “Yes” to outweigh “No”.

It's a fair enough opinion. I think it's probably right. But I think most players love subclassing, but most players also love just spamming heavy attack with a lightning staff. [snip]

[edited for inappropriate content]

CoronHR · July 13

Yes

i voted yes but there's 0% chance of it. really, my vote is more like yes, i wish subclassing never happened

Radiate77 · July 13

No

L33T_BEANS wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

I find this poll fascinating, really. These forums are ground zero for Subclassing complaints, as they don’t exist elsewhere… yet the data is showing that you guys are a vocal minority here too.

Even if you took all the free “Other” votes, it would still not be enough for “Yes” to outweigh “No”.

It's a fair enough opinion. I think it's probably right. But I think most players love subclassing, but most players also love just spamming heavy attack with a lightning staff. [snip]

That’s actually hilarious. 😂

[edited to remove quote]

CoronHR · July 13

Yes

and ditto for hybridization

BretonMage · July 13

Yes

If they can't balance subclassing with existing classes, than I don't think it should be part of the game.

Of course, since there's no chance they'll rollback this new system, I really hope they find some way to formulate a reasonable balance instead.

karthrag_inak · July 13

No

What an absurd idea. This is the most Elder Scrolls-like game ESO has ever been, the best update in many years.

Perhaps you should also ask if folks wish for the graphics to be retro'ed to 8 bit, or the soundtrack to be converted to midi.

Vulkunne · July 13

Other

Well yes and no.

They should not roll back sub classing but most def should slow down and focus on class balance.

I do enjoy playing regular non-sub DK with sword and board, so forth. Its a dying art, its a tall build and not for everyone. I hate to see the gameplay be lost with the class itself. All of us don't want to just play Sorc you know.

Radiate77 · July 13

No

CoronHR wrote: »

and ditto for hybridization

After enough changes, they could certainly revisit Hybridization. I feel like Subclassing would be the enabling factor there.

Alaztor91 · July 13

No

Let's be real, ZOS isn't going to roll back this feature. If we are ''lucky'' they will continue homogenizing the Class passives, similar to what is already being done with the ''gain Ultimate when doing X'' ones. After a while and after rearranging some of the original 4 base Classes skills around, something like the Assassination or Grave Lord tree passives will simply be non-stackable bonuses like Major/Minor Berserk, Force, Savagery, etc. At that point you wouldn't gain passive bonuses by stacking multiple Skill Lines of the same type(DPS, Tank or Heal), and with the skills themselves being largely homogenized already except for a few remaining ''unique'' ones like Fatecarver there wouldn't be such a large gap between a ''Pure Class'' vs a Subclassed one slotting 3x Skill Lines of the same type.

On the other hand, ZOS may also just forget about it and leave it in an unfinished state, similar to Hybridization. Hopefully now that ESO is the only thing on their plate they give it a bit more attention.

Tandor · July 13

No

Perhaps those voting for the rollback of subclassing could explain how exactly it would be done? Would they roll back all accounts totally to immediately before the update, losing everything gained since then, or do they know some way in which it would be both feasible and viable for the devs to roll back individual subclassed skill lines in to the original ones in which case where would they put the experience gained in the subclassed skill lines? It's completely impractical.

Parasaurolophus · July 13

Yes

Alaztor91 wrote: »

Let's be real, ZOS isn't going to roll back this feature. If we are ''lucky'' they will continue homogenizing the Class passives, similar to what is already being done with the ''gain Ultimate when doing X'' ones. After a while and after rearranging some of the original 4 base Classes skills around, something like the Assassination or Grave Lord tree passives will simply be non-stackable bonuses like Major/Minor Berserk, Force, Savagery, etc. At that point you wouldn't gain passive bonuses by stacking multiple Skill Lines of the same type(DPS, Tank or Heal), and with the skills themselves being largely homogenized already except for a few remaining ''unique'' ones like Fatecarver there wouldn't be such a large gap between a ''Pure Class'' vs a Subclassed one slotting 3x Skill Lines of the same type.

On the other hand, ZOS may also just forget about it and leave it in an unfinished state, similar to Hybridization. Hopefully now that ESO is the only thing on their plate they give it a bit more attention.

Yes, I’m also 99% sure that in the end ZoS won’t be able to bring subclassing to any finished state. The balance will be severely lacking. It’s just the most likely outcome.

Chrisilis · July 13

Other

Never gonna happen. As far as I've been able to tell player feedback is for the players and not for ZOS. How people feel about a change means absolutely nothing here. Good times.

If this is the direction we're going in anyway, take it even further, fully customizable skill lines, make your own skill line, choose your own adventure skill lines. Get rid of "skill lines" altogether and just have skills. Imagine being able to take any skill from any line and use it once mastered without having to equip a whole line with only one or two good skills.

Which won't happen either. But good chat!

Versalium · July 13

No

I think that's the hardcore pvp hustlers who should rollback and let the others to enjoy the game.