Why Patch 47 will hit casual gamers the hardest.

moderatelyfatman · July 12

I think patch 47 will hit the casual players hardest.

Patch 46 buffed the endgamers in PvE and PvP but had no effect on the players who didn't subclass.
Patch 47 will nerf the strongest skill lines which will bring subclassers back down to the previous level but will kick pureclass builds to the kerb.

For instance, the Assasination skill line and Grim Focus was not overpowered on the nightblade. But after patch 47 Grim Focus will no longer have the ~500 weapons/spell damage buff because it was too powerful when combined with arcanist beam. This is a net loss of pure nightblades. Ditto when they nerf the templar skill lines.

So suddenly the majority of players who don't follow patch changes to skills and meta sets ARE going to notice if their dps drops by 30%. We had a similar experience in patch 35 when a number of casual guildies who never tracked dps couldn't understand why Jabs didn't seem to be working any more. Or the Oakensoul HA sorcs who suddenly found that they couldn't complete vet content any more and decided to move on rather than changing builds.

You did this to your largest playerbase, ZOS.

tomofhyrule · July 12

Let's not pretend that the U46 nerfs didn't hurt pureclasses though.

Sorcs and DK got hit with some decent sustain nerfs. Sorc did manage to claw a few things back, but no-pet pureSorc is not where it was before since U46 really did try the "if you don't like pets, just subclass it!" angle.

But DK's sustain via Combustion and Battle Roar got nerfed by about half. I know that when I'm on my casual overland setup, I'm basically being forced to heavy attack weave because my sustain is just gone.

Desiato · July 12

It's not even close to a 30% drop in damage. It's not even close to a 30% drop in total power.

I'm going to generalize here. It's more nuanced than this, but in general we can take the higher of weapon and spell damage and combine it with the higher of max stam or magicka divided by 10.5 and call that total power. That combination is generally used to determine the tooltip damage of abilities. The actual formulas are different, but most can be generalized in that way.

You can see the actual damage formulas here.

So if a player has 32k stam and 5000 weapon damage, that's approximately 8k total power.

But it's not the only factor in damage. Penetration, Crit Chance and Crit Damage are all also very important. In general, having a penetration value that completely bypasses an enemy's armor is the most important goal when designing group comps, followed by maxing crit damage, and then crit chance is usually prioritized, but it depends on the values.

Major Savagery/Prophecy increase critical rating by 2629, which results in a 12% increase to crit chance. They are among the most important dps buffs to have. In u46, they are granted passively on both bars by Shadowy Disguise, but in u47 they are being moved to Grim Focus, passively applied to both bars.

While Shadowy Disguise had some damage upside through its 10% damage buff, it was only really good in fights with dead periods like phased fights when one could spare a gcd. In u47, it can be replaced by another dot which, imo, will result in more damage.

So with all that considered, it's actually pretty lateral for pure class nightblades, but they will need to reconsider their builds.

In addition to all of that, there are the damage boosts provided by CP.

If a real theorycrafter wants to step in with a better explanation and detailed calculations, please be my guest! This is very general. I don't do any spreadsheet theorycrafting anymore, unlike 6-11 years ago.

Do you know who is a real theorycrafter? Hyperioxes. And he said that zos was dumb because casual players won't even noticed u47 changes, but the top end -- score pushers and dungeon tri soloers like him -- would resent them. Basically players who use heroism potions.

Whatever the precise case may be, it's NOWHERE close to a 30% drop in damage.

But in which content will this be relevant, and why do you assume it's all casual players playing pure classes? Why do you think casual players don't like subclassing? Casual TES fans probably like subclassing the most.

It is likely a fringe minority that don't want to adapt to subclassing. I don't personally know any players who are avoiding subclassing. By personally know, I mean the hundreds of players I play trials with. I can't recall even seeing level 50 pure classes in random dungeon pugs. I probably have without realizing it, but most players seem to be subclassed.

It's only in these forums where I see any hard objections to it. Not everyone wanted subclassing -- myself included -- but I'm pretty sure most players are already in the process of adapting to it. The trial community certainly has.

It's the same kind of loud minority forum stubbornness we see every major update. We saw the same thing with the introduction of CP. Some people just have a 'pry it from my cold dead hands' mentality it seems.

Tallon_IV · July 12

I'm sure you'll finish your quests just as easily as before.

Yudo · July 12

No pet mag sorc (pure):

U45 +10% magicka + heal on shields
U46 -5% magicka - heal on shields + 5% mitigation
U47 -8% magicka - 5% mitigation

-3% magicka, amazing!

Stamicka · July 12

Subclassing as a whole is really bad for casual players or new players looking to get into PvP or endgame PvE.

It adds another layer of complexity when it comes to making a build, which is already way more complex than it once was.

The power gap and the knowledge gap keeps growing as more build customization is allowed. I genuinely don’t know how a new player would make sense of the 100s of sets in the game, skill line combinations, scribing, traits, CP, and many other build elements and interactions without watching YouTube.

It’s an accessibility issue and it keeps PvP and endgame PvE communities small with low entry rates and poor retention. A properly specced player is literally like an emperor compared to a max leveled newer player doing their own thing.

ZOS is approaching accessibility the complete wrong way and they just don’t get it.

ThancredLux · July 12

Since day one is already more trouble than it's worth.

and I agree, not only hurts casual players, but more importantly, hurts new blood coming to try the game.

imagine you are a new player, and find out this stuff, first it blows your mind and oversaturates you with information, once you come to your senses, calm your *** down, read a bit, and start playing, you realize that instead of getting rewarded for testing and trying out all this "amazing" combinations and stuff, you are just getting punished.

skill points? it takes twice as them, so instead of trying stuff and just playing the game to see how my build gets it's form and i progress, nope, i have to go on a road trip to skyshards hunting, sounds enticing huh? even an old player will have to go through this pain wiht an alt or even with your main, depending on how you play/played the game. Easy solution is either account wide skyshards, but it ain't happening, because they already sell you the solution on their beloved crown store

meanwhile, your main skill line that you are obligated to keep, is already maxed out and realizes the other two are still have away there or even less, because it takes twice as much to level up, so now i either sit there and slowly wait to level up them up through quests, that most or them are meh, or painful grinding that is only going to get you burn out of the game.

Ironic huh? you butcher pure class, but you are also making subclass garbage too lmao, it's pathetic really.

ADarklore · July 12

Desiato wrote: »

It's not even close to a 30% drop in damage. It's not even close to a 30% drop in total power.

I'm going to generalize here. It's more nuanced than this, but in general we can take the higher of weapon and spell damage and combine it with the highest of max stam or magicka divided by 10.5. and call that total power. That combination is generally used to determine the tooltip damage of abilities. The actual formulas are different, but most can be generalized in that way.

You can see the actual damage formulas here.

So if a player has 32k stam and 5000 weapon damage, that's approximately 8k total power.

But it's not the only factor in damage. Penetration, Crit Chance and Crit Damage are all also very important. In general, having a penetration value that completely bypasses an enemy's armor is the most important goal when designing group comps, followed by maxing crit damage, and then crit chance is usually prioritized, but it depends on the values.

Major Savagery/Prophecy increase critical rating by 2629, which results in a 12% increase to crit chance. They are among the most important dps buffs to have. In u46, they are granted passively on both bars by Shadowy Disguise, but in u47 they are being moved to Grim Focus, passively applied to both bars.

While Shadowy Disguise had some damage upside through its 10% damage buff, it was only really good in fights with dead periods like phased fights when one could spare a gcd. In u47, it can be replaced by another dot which, imo, will result in more damage.

So with all that considered, it's actually pretty lateral for pure class nightblades, but they will need to reconsider their builds.

In addition to all of that, there are the damage boosts provided by CP.

If a real theorycrafter wants to step in with a better explanation and detailed calculations, please be my guest! This is very general. I don't do any spreadsheet theorycrafting anymore, unlike 6-11 years ago.

Do you know who is a real theorycrafter? Hyperioxes. And he said that zos was dumb because casual players won't even noticed u47 changes, but the top end -- score pushers and dungeon tri soloers like him -- would resent them. Basically players who use heroism potions.

Whatever the precise case may be, it's NOWHERE close to a 30% drop in damage.

But in which content will this be relevant, and why do you assume it's all casual players playing pure classes? Why do you think casual players don't like subclassing? Casual TES fans probably like subclassing the most.

It is likely a fringe minority that don't want to adapt to subclassing. I don't personally know any players who are avoiding subclassing. By personally know, I mean the hundreds of players I play trials with. I can't recall even seeing level 50 pure classes in random dungeon pugs. I probably have without realizing it, but most players seem to be subclassed.

It's only in these forums where I see any hard objections to it. Not everyone wanted subclassing -- myself included -- but I'm pretty sure most players are already in the process of adapting to it. The trial community certainly has.

It's the same kind of loud minority forum stubbornness we see every major update. We saw the same thing with the introduction of CP. Some people just have a 'pry it from my cold dead hands' mentality it seems.

What's interesting here, is the assumption that a large number of casuals are not running Oakensoul, so they already have Savage/Prophecy. What this change does, is hurt Oakensoul players who subclassed into Assassination solely for the increased weapon damage... or pure-class Nightblade players who run Oakensoul.

Jierdanit · July 12

Oh no the overland mobs are going to last 5 seconds instead of 4 seconds now.

Maitsukas · July 12

Casual player here (as in I don't partake in Veteran difficulty content or PvP 24/7), I'm not bothered with the changes.

Abelon · July 12

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

I think patch 47 will hit the casual players hardest.

So suddenly the majority of players who don't follow patch changes to skills and meta sets ARE going to notice if their dps drops by 30%. We had a similar experience in patch 35 when a number of casual guildies who never tracked dps couldn't understand why Jabs didn't seem to be working any more. Or the Oakensoul HA sorcs who suddenly found that they couldn't complete vet content any more and decided to move on rather than changing builds.

I think this post needs to define casuals. Because I don't know casuals who care much if at all, about their endgame sets, much less about meta sets. Nor do I know casuals who run vet content... So I'm kind of confused why casuals would all of a sudden find themselves surprised that they're unable to complete said vet content, or that their meta set's bonus dropped by X%.

Therefore I'm not worried about that at all, no. I'm sure the casuals will happily continue to quest like nothing ever happened. Overland mobs will continue to die in 3 or less hits. Bosses will continue to die before they're even one word into their villainous monologue.

Most of this post is absolutely not casual players discussing their concerns with nerfs impacting hard endgame content, meta builds and whatnot. That's great, but uh... relevant to casual players how? It's like y'all just threw in a random, unrelated group to justify your own gripes.

Versalium · July 12

I guess, I can call myself casual. Although I play daily, I'm not interested in pvp and competition at all. As long as there are quests, some rewards to take and things to do, I'm playing it. After that, what's the point? It's a cozy game to escape stress and nonsense of reality.

TheMajority · July 12

I'm completely disgusted with the fact that this is ending in a templar nerf so quickly when it finally had some power behind it again. That didnt last long at all.

Desiato · July 12

TheMajority wrote: »

I'm completely disgusted with the fact that this is ending in a templar nerf so quickly when it finally had some power behind it again. That didnt last long at all.

Honestly, in the right hands, Templar has been lowkey op since eric wrobel gave it the 'house' and subclassing pretty much proved that.

So many community narratives are completely false. Which is reflective of real life these days.

Someone is going to read the OP and spread "30% damage nerf" as fact, even though it's completely wrong.

Four_Fingers · July 12

Seems like everyone is subclassing Fatecarver, my baby Sorc just got beamed to death by three separate players while I was trying to defend Vlas. in under 50. I was able dodge for a while but without speed CP didn't last long.
Maybe they need to add a Green Lantern costume!

Cooperharley · July 12

I personally just don't see a world where ZOS implements a system that inherently buffs "pure classes." We've asked them to utilize battle spirit for instance or use the "against monsters" terminology in skill balancing to separate PvE & PvP for what? 10 years now?

I don't think ZOS envisioned a world where people DIDN'T want to subclass. It was shortsighted, sure, but I wouldn't hold my breath & think that that change will come from a realistic perspective.

The biggest underlying issue that I'm seeing here, time and time again, patch after patch, is every single one of these issues is brought up in PTS - over and over and over again. We told them about the power they were introducing back in U46, and they did nothing about it. Now they're completely ripping it all away after giving it to everybody for a patch and not only does that suck, but like you said, in reality all they're doing is completely smacking foundational class skills that pure class players use. It really is a mess and, to me (as someone who has no idea how game development works, but has common sense), it seems like a leadership/direction issue.

What is the goal here ZOS? What is the vision? I've had less and less faith in this combat team as professionals (not people) since U35. I'm sure everybody is great and we could have awesome conversations IRL. But from a career perspective here, it comes across like we don't know what we're doing and where we want to be. These developer comments aren't enough. We need to hear from leadership on the combat team and people working on this stuff day in and day out. I don't see that happening, but man it'd be helpful just to take a peek on the inside.

Edit: spelling

TheMajority · July 12

Desiato wrote: »

TheMajority wrote: »

I'm completely disgusted with the fact that this is ending in a templar nerf so quickly when it finally had some power behind it again. That didnt last long at all.

Honestly, in the right hands, Templar has been lowkey op since eric wrobel gave it the 'house' and subclassing pretty much proved that.

So many community narratives are completely false. Which is reflective of real life these days.

Someone is going to read the OP and spread "30% damage nerf" as fact, even though it's completely wrong.

Sorry but I don't think you have the facts. Everyone knows templar was nerfed to death in PVP and barely any one played it until it was buffed again. Now it's getting nerfs it don't deserve. Stop spreading false info. It hasn't been OP since it got nerfed.

kargen27 · July 12

Maybe we have a different definition of casual player but I'm thinking most casual players aren't obsessed with their DPS numbers. Any content they were doing before they can still do after the changes. We don't know maybe some will even like the drop because encounters become more interesting. It isn't always just about burning everything in an instant.

Desiato · July 12

TheMajority wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

TheMajority wrote: »

I'm completely disgusted with the fact that this is ending in a templar nerf so quickly when it finally had some power behind it again. That didnt last long at all.

Honestly, in the right hands, Templar has been lowkey op since eric wrobel gave it the 'house' and subclassing pretty much proved that.

So many community narratives are completely false. Which is reflective of real life these days.

Someone is going to read the OP and spread "30% damage nerf" as fact, even though it's completely wrong.

Sorry but I don't think you have the facts. Everyone knows templar was nerfed to death in PVP and barely any one played it until it was buffed again. Now it's getting nerfs it don't deserve. Stop spreading false info. It hasn't been OP since it got nerfed.

Well, you can see for yourself that two of the three skill lines are considered among the top dps skill lines and the 3rd is also ranked very high for supports.

In top end PVE, it has been a top parse class in content for a while. If someone can weave well, it is extremely strong.

In PVP, I'll quote one of the better and well known PVP Templar mains for the past 10 years: "decent templars only die if we want to." One of the more popular PVP streamers mainly 1vx'd using Templar or Warden prior to subclassing.

For casual players, puncturing sweep is pretty OP for overland! It's what I use on my normal dungeon/base game vet parse tanks that do 40k+ dps while buffing the group and doing all the other tank stuff. No healer necessary.

Pretty much everyone thinks their main class is worse than it actually is.

kargen27 · July 13

"In top end PVE, it has been a top parse class in content for a while. If someone can weave well, it is extremely strong."

My Templar is my favorite to play in PvP and when doing vet trials. I have no proof but it feels to me if I fall out of my rotation with my Templar the drop in DPS is more significant than if I drop out of my rotation with other classes. One missed or ill timed skill and it takes a bit of scrambling to get the DPS up again. Weaving is an important part of that. Usually when I die in PvP it is because my fingers didn't listen to my brain and did something stupid.
It is far from the easiest class to play but if you can you get rewarded well. Might be that some players that feel the Templar under preforms just aren't getting all they can out of a Templar yet.

Darrett · July 13

kargen27 wrote: »

Maybe we have a different definition of casual player but I'm thinking most casual players aren't obsessed with their DPS numbers. Any content they were doing before they can still do after the changes. We don't know maybe some will even like the drop because encounters become more interesting. It isn't always just about burning everything in an instant.

To me, casual players include players that do some veteran dungeons and enjoy that content. They’re maybe not obsessing about parse numbers, but they like the challenge of harder content. I consider myself casual because my limit of capability is about 36k DPS with subclassing, which is up from 28k without.

So even to casuals, swings in capability are important, arguably moreso since it can make or break their ability to even complete content rather than just impact their ability to get a high score.

moderatelyfatman · July 13

Darrett wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Maybe we have a different definition of casual player but I'm thinking most casual players aren't obsessed with their DPS numbers. Any content they were doing before they can still do after the changes. We don't know maybe some will even like the drop because encounters become more interesting. It isn't always just about burning everything in an instant.

To me, casual players include players that do some veteran dungeons and enjoy that content. They’re maybe not obsessing about parse numbers, but they like the challenge of harder content. I consider myself casual because my limit of capability is about 36k DPS with subclassing, which is up from 28k without.

So even to casuals, swings in capability are important, arguably moreso since it can make or break their ability to even complete content rather than just impact their ability to get a high score.

I agree. Casual is a dangerous term these days because people can interpret it in many ways!

I know a fair number of veteran players who are 'casual' because they've moved on from ESO as their main game but drop in once a week to help out the newbies in guild events.
However, these casual veterans are also annoyed and demotivated by the wild swings and many aren't going to bother farming new sets or skill lines given that they play only one night per week.

Pevey · July 13

Stamicka wrote: »

Subclassing as a whole is really bad for casual players or new players looking to get into PvP or endgame PvE.

It adds another layer of complexity when it comes to making a build, which is already way more complex than it once was.

The power gap and the knowledge gap keeps growing as more build customization is allowed. I genuinely don’t know how a new player would make sense of the 100s of sets in the game, skill line combinations, scribing, traits, CP, and many other build elements and interactions without watching YouTube.

It’s an accessibility issue and it keeps PvP and endgame PvE communities small with low entry rates and poor retention. A properly specced player is literally like an emperor compared to a max leveled newer player doing their own thing.

ZOS is approaching accessibility the complete wrong way and they just don’t get it.

All of this.

Sarannah · July 13

Personally I think ZOS should stop balancing entirely, to me it just seems like a total waste of time and resources. If something is really broken/bugged, fix it. But balancing is unnecessary, as it only destroys the uniqueness of the game and it's abilities.

That time and effort is better spent making new content and new systems to grow the game.

PS: I thought the release of subclassing meant they were done with balancing the game, as those who min-max will always flock to the same builds anyways.

Bubosh · July 13

Balance is mandatory for a MMORPG there is no but, if or whatever as excuse for this fact. If you wanna see ESO as solo player rpg then you can do so but it's a massive online multiplayer game where they ofc need to balance things out. Especially for the endgame content (PvE/pvp) which is the main goal for the more progressive MMORPG players. Everyone knew subclass u46 would make this happen to you all in u47 but still ppl complain about u47 as if they couldn't see it coming.... The problem is u46 and subclassing feature and ofc the incompetence of zos and their balance fixes (since they never want to listen to pts feedback and rather doing their own fantasy balance changes and that is making all just worse for all of us).

Rungar · July 13

Stamicka wrote: »

Subclassing as a whole is really bad for casual players or new players looking to get into PvP or endgame PvE.

It adds another layer of complexity when it comes to making a build, which is already way more complex than it once was.

The power gap and the knowledge gap keeps growing as more build customization is allowed. I genuinely don’t know how a new player would make sense of the 100s of sets in the game, skill line combinations, scribing, traits, CP, and many other build elements and interactions without watching YouTube.

It’s an accessibility issue and it keeps PvP and endgame PvE communities small with low entry rates and poor retention. A properly specced player is literally like an emperor compared to a max leveled newer player doing their own thing.

ZOS is approaching accessibility the complete wrong way and they just don’t get it.

this isnt true at all. Subclassing is a great boon for anyone who wants to play a tank or healer and the endgame activities have always been held back by the combat system and nothing else.

if they really wanted to make the game accessible they should fix the combat system and maybe make content that is not 100% reliant on dps... to skip mechanics.

GibbsieUK · July 13

Whenever they tweak things to "level the playing field" or whatever reason, it always seems to nerf more than is needed. I'm not a big PVP player by the way. Usually get creamed in Cyrodiil/Imperial City against the players who can work out every benefit of each set, skill, food, buff highest dps etc. (Also some not so expert players if I'm honest)

One of my characters is a one bar, no pet sorcerer with oakensoul ring. With the help of the hardened ward which did a small heal as well as a shield with no pet, I was quite happy with his damage and defense, he held up well in some tough fights. Now the heal part is gone from hardened ward and he struggles on some where he didn't. Haven't found a good replacement skill/build yet.

Are they unable to finagle things a bit more precise? For instance - one bar, no pet, hardened ward does heal and ward. But for a two bar with pet, just give it ward as pet can take care of heal, and more slots for other skills as well. I'm sure there are many skills they could do different effects for according to how many bars you have, skill lines, classes etc.
I know there is scribing and now sub-classing, but I would prefer to do my own thing with a build I worked at with (near enough) what the game started with, and not have it nerfed every update. Every time I'm halfway happy with a build - update and back to square one.
Also - why don't skills like hardened ward affect your follower, just pets? Might help to make Mirri a little less squelchy. (Don't worry, we've got this! ....... Gack!)

katanagirl1 · July 14

moderatelyfatman wrote: »

Darrett wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

Maybe we have a different definition of casual player but I'm thinking most casual players aren't obsessed with their DPS numbers. Any content they were doing before they can still do after the changes. We don't know maybe some will even like the drop because encounters become more interesting. It isn't always just about burning everything in an instant.

To me, casual players include players that do some veteran dungeons and enjoy that content. They’re maybe not obsessing about parse numbers, but they like the challenge of harder content. I consider myself casual because my limit of capability is about 36k DPS with subclassing, which is up from 28k without.

So even to casuals, swings in capability are important, arguably moreso since it can make or break their ability to even complete content rather than just impact their ability to get a high score.

I agree. Casual is a dangerous term these days because people can interpret it in many ways!
I know a fair number of veteran players who are 'casual' because they've moved on from ESO as their main game but drop in once a week to help out the newbies in guild events.
However, these casual veterans are also annoyed and demotivated by the wild swings and many aren't going to bother farming new sets or skill lines given that they play only one night per week.

Casual should mean those players who don’t follow the meta and don’t parse to know what their dps is. Many players just take the overland drop gear they get with the highest armor rating regardless of whether it has magicka or stamina bonuses to it because they don’t know better. They mostly do overland questing.

Someone like me who did do meta builds for end-game content might be playing casually, but have the knowledge to understand how to make a build and how mechanics work. You cannot equate these two.

madman65 · July 14

Look at what happened to Dark Convergence when it was used in PVE. Gamers were posting the damage that they were making and even running dungeons solo. Now that ESO/ZOS has heard about the ***k+ parses I would state they were bringing those numbers down.

NoSoup · July 14

TheMajority wrote: »

I'm completely disgusted with the fact that this is ending in a templar nerf so quickly when it finally had some power behind it again. That didnt last long at all.

Where are the templar nerfs? Didn't even see templars mentioned in the patch notes?

twisttop138 · July 14

I see another thread where we try to play the us vs them game. There is no set in stone casual player. As the officer of a social casual guild, though I myself am a vet and hm content guy, I have had the opportunity to meet many self styled casual players who enjoy many many facets of ESO. I know of casual grandmas who are very very aware of their gear and DPS number and actively try to improve it. Is she not casual cause she wants her heavy attack Sorc to hit hard for our team runs for worm wizard? She's not the only one. On the flip side would be the many vet and hm raiders I know that spend boat loads of money to make their toon look good or spend hours on their house. Me included. I also do every quest. Stop with this "we're" largest player base stuff. Everyone crosses everyone else's street and we should act like it, changes to the game that are harmful hurt everyone.

I'm of the opinion that we didn't ask for subclassing but it's here. ZOS said they were fine with the power creep so we set about having a good time. The thing we *told* you was going to happen? It happened. Not even one patch later the flip around and wanna ruin the fun. Was grim focus over tuned for subclasses? Oh hell yes. But they knew it was going to be and let it go. Why one patch later are they concerned?