Hello, lightning form? U47 Sorc discussion

Spearblade · July 8

I made a post a couple days ago in regards to Sorcerer not having defined skill line identities. Newly added classes like Warden, Necromancer, and Arcanist were all designed with a Damage, Healing, and Tanking skill line. Revisions have been made to most of the other base game classes, or natively had more balance between the roles than Sorcerer has.

Storm Calling (judging by passives, and most of the skills) is largely designed to be a DPS skill line.

Daedric Summoning and Dark Magic are all over the place.

Damage spammable is in Dark Magic, along with a crappy stun, crappy root, Dark Exchange (self heal/sustain), Vibrant Shroud heal, and crappy mines that either offer damage shields or crappy damage. No obvious design from a passive standpoint (probably tank?)

Daedric Summoning has the pets that have largely kept Sorcerer competitive from a DPS standpoint. Their activated effects either do big heals or do more damage. Daedric Curse has been a staple of Sorcerer DPS as well, either for buffing pets, or the delayed burst. Conjured Ward is a survivability tool. Bound Armor has been used for the magicka passive more so than the block bonus. Bound Armaments is a poor man's Relentless Focus. Passives are largely tank focused.

The 3 skill lines together, as a whole, made a more or less successful class. Individually, the skill lines do not compete with the clearly defined roles other classes' skill lines offer. They did (do) offer unique utility to classes that hyper focused on damage/healing/tanking from other classes though. Because the skill lines are ALL over the place.

With Subclassing, ZOS' best bet is to follow the class formula of Damage, Healing, and Tank skill lines for ALL classes. I don't envy them trying to achieve this with Sorcerer though. It won't be easy, and there's going to be a lot of growing pains.

First round of natch potes though. Let them cook. Panic week 3.

katorga · July 8

The_Meathead wrote: »

React wrote: »

Really, really sad to see one of the staple core identity skills of sorc be stripped away like this. The skill has been iconic for a decade as the source of resolve on the class. It's so obvious this is being done simply because a lot of people are using it in pvp, which is just depressing as it confirms the studio intends to take the "nerf strong things" approach rather than the "buff weak things" approach.

If they're suddenly giving a crap about PvP, how about changing Grim Focus to where it can't double tap, rather than ooking around with the Weapon Damage on it?

I'm not even a Sorc and I'm furious about this change to a Major Resolve skill that nobody asked for. It's asinine.

it can triple tap now

Radiate77 · July 8

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

so relentless and BA are now exactly the same skill?

Omg lol .. I just managed to get on to NB and it's worse than I thought.

Relentless despite costing -1 stack, still has a cap of 10, so it's like the other thread said, you can now fire this skill 3 times.

Get to 9 stacks, light (10), Relentless (6), light (7), Relentless (3), light (4), Relentless (0).

Oh, there’s no way that makes it live. 😂

Arvedia · July 9

Soarora wrote: »

Arvedia wrote: »

Pure Sorc-Tank is officially dead with these changes. Sad, but I had my fun at least

Again, no, pure sorc tank is fine. You need bound aegis in some circumstances to begin with (ERE HM, I find it useful for FV HM) and if you have a healer running frost cloak then you get major resolve from them anyways and don't need a major resolve skill. The loss of minor protection and 8% max magicka feels out of nowhere and displeasing but I think we'll be fine as tanks. I will be using a sorc tank tomorrow and I'll eat my words if replacing hurricane with something else makes a big difference, but I really think it's too much to say that sorc tank is dead. We are plenty useful to a group, we'd be dead if they took our group buffs away (please zos don't do that).

To be clear, I am not in support of changing lightning form and bound aegis, but this will not kill sorc tank.

Not too long ago sorcerers were able to heal themselfs with shields and had +10% Stamina and Magicka, 18% max Magicka with bound aegis

Now we have 5% Stam (-5%)
5% Magicka (-13% which is insane)
No minor protection
No heal other than dark exchange and pets
Also you wont have a speed buff anymore since boundless storm lost its major resolve buff

So yes, I would claim that pure Sorc-Tank will be dead with those changes. There will be no reason, at least no reasons that I can think of, to play this class anymore without subclassing - at least from a Tank's perspective

MincMincMinc · July 9

Updated original post to reflect more of what was discussed

Soarora · July 9

Arvedia wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Arvedia wrote: »

Pure Sorc-Tank is officially dead with these changes. Sad, but I had my fun at least

Again, no, pure sorc tank is fine. You need bound aegis in some circumstances to begin with (ERE HM, I find it useful for FV HM) and if you have a healer running frost cloak then you get major resolve from them anyways and don't need a major resolve skill. The loss of minor protection and 8% max magicka feels out of nowhere and displeasing but I think we'll be fine as tanks. I will be using a sorc tank tomorrow and I'll eat my words if replacing hurricane with something else makes a big difference, but I really think it's too much to say that sorc tank is dead. We are plenty useful to a group, we'd be dead if they took our group buffs away (please zos don't do that).

To be clear, I am not in support of changing lightning form and bound aegis, but this will not kill sorc tank.

Not too long ago sorcerers were able to heal themselfs with shields and had +10% Stamina and Magicka, 18% max Magicka with bound aegis

Now we have 5% Stam (-5%)
5% Magicka (-13% which is insane)
No minor protection
No heal other than dark exchange and pets
Also you wont have a speed buff anymore since boundless storm lost its major resolve buff

So yes, I would claim that pure Sorc-Tank will be dead with those changes. There will be no reason, at least no reasons that I can think of, to play this class anymore without subclassing - at least from a Tank's perspective

Am I happy with the changes? No. Do any of these things kill sorc tank? Also no.

I almost always have very good sustain, so max resource dropping shouldn’t be a big deal.

Minor protection is whatever, my cro tank doesn’t have it and she’s fine.

Clannfear was the OG heal and yet even before hardened ward was given a heal (mind you, the lifespan of ward healing was only like a year), I didn’t run clannfear all the time. DSA s&b + puncture or just trusting the healer are other options. Not including things like shroud and scribing now.

All the things that make sorcerer a good tank choice are still present, we still survive well, have great mobility, and supply useful buffs to the group. Even if pure class because theres something useful in every line (lightning -> synergy, streak. The other line -> vibrant shroud).

If you like sorc tank keep playing sorc tank. I sure will, it’s my favorite tank class. Granted, I also play templar tank as my third tank so maybe I am crazy.

Yudo · July 9

It is great to move major resolve away from storm calling. People will complaining because they could get all the benefits under storm calling using one skill and that is being fixed now. I play pure sorc exclusively, and play tank often too. This opens up more choices.

Aliniel · July 9

I actually like this change. Sorc skill lines had identity crisis since they were released all those years ago. Tanking, Healing and DD skills and passives were all over the place. This brings it more in line with other classes.

Now when you take Storm Calling, you actually get another useful buff. Previously you'd have to subclass Dark Magic which nobody does for a DD. I'd go a step further and move Minor Prophecy to Storm Calling too. Maybe even Crystal Fragments. Make Dark Magic pure tanking / healing.

Turtle_Bot · July 9

Spearblade wrote: »

With Subclassing, ZOS' best bet is to follow the class formula of Damage, Healing, and Tank skill lines for ALL classes. I don't envy them trying to achieve this with Sorcerer though. It won't be easy, and there's going to be a lot of growing pains.

First round of natch potes though. Let them cook. Panic week 3.

The issue with letting ZOS cook is that ZOS did this in U35 and again in U46 (and a long time ago both when they removed overloads 3rd bar and when they mechanically nerfed shields to be near useless compared to blocking and healing) and have proven they really just don't know how to fix/balance sorc because they seemingly refuse to listen to any of the sorc mains.

U35 ZOS had to (literally) last minute panic buff 2 of sorcs skills (prey and armaments) by 100% or more in week 5 of that update, just to bring the class into a usable state (in PvE/spreadsheet) because ZOS went and "cooked" their way into all but deleting sorc from the game due to the massive nerfs to everything in sorcs kit during the first 4 weeks of that updates PTS that even their spreadsheets showed the class was not viable.

U46, while not as bad as U35, ZOS went and nerfed a bunch of Sorcs abilities (some needed addressing such as ward heal), but they again went overboard with their "cooking", nerfing a lot more than was needed to address the complaints (didn't need to kill both max stats and ward heal at the same time, just 1 or the other was enough to address ward as was evident in U45 where sorcs were already brought back down with just a reduced heal value on ward and both warden and NB were already on par with sorc for PvP, but ZOS went and "cooked" their way to nerfing both at the same time alongside nerfs to already dead skills such as mages fury).
The issue with U46 wasn't exclusively the nerfs from that patch, but those being compounded alongside the nerfs made prior to that patch to balance sorc when it had the OP version of hardened ward. Nerfs that were left nerfed and never compensated for, when ZOS finally adjusted ward in U46. The other issue from U46 was ZOS dismissive, antagonistic (and frankly insulting) attitude in the dev comments attached to the Sorcerer nerfs that were literally "if players don't want to interact with X line, then sub-class out of those lines", i.e. inferring that sorc players can go [snip] themselves if they don't like ZOS current notion of pets being forced on their class.

I am heavily skeptical of ZOS cooking anything this patch, because most of the changes ZOS has proposed for Sorc in this PTS cycle, read as a wish-list from back in U37, long before sub-classing was announced.
From that perspective (pure sorc), these changes seem ok (outside of being forced to choose between crit chance and armor buffs), armaments/aegis is now role focused instead of max stat focused, the class finally has built in access to savagery/prophecy (although it loses resolve to get this buff which is a huge WHY moment) and minor force is no longer tied to a non-damaging cast time ability that was super clunky to use in PvE. In this context these changes seem actually pretty decent.
In the context of sub-classing though, these changes are just messing up sorcs already heavily mixed lines even more, which only serves to further reduce sorcs ability to interact with sub-classing (also reduces any reason for other classes to sub-class into any of sorcs lines when other class's lines are just better and more focused).
- Why take dark magic when assassination (even post "nerf") is still massively superior
- why take storm calling when animal companions or aedric spear are just objectively better
- why take daedric summoning when restoring light or winters embrace are just better
There's no reason to take any of the Sorc lines when I can just roll a NB, Warden or Templar and slot a combination of any 3 of the above lines and have more damage, more crit (damage and chance), more buffs/debuffs, more sustain, more healing, more mitigation, similar mobility, multiple cleanses and actually have real AoE options for both healing and damage.

At this point, I really just don't trust ZOS to "cook" anything that would be good for the class long term. The reasons are:
1. They have proven completely incapable of doing so in the past, multiple times
2. They seem to not have anyone on the team that understands the class, that can advocate for good (balanced) changes that isn't just "more pets"
3. They never seem to involve/communicate with anyone who actually knows/plays/understands Sorcerer when they make their changes to the class.
So sure, we could "let them cook", but we have seen their cooking before (many times) when it comes to Sorc and the results have been abysmal every time.

Turtle_Bot · July 9

Aliniel wrote: »

I actually like this change. Sorc skill lines had identity crisis since they were released all those years ago. Tanking, Healing and DD skills and passives were all over the place. This brings it more in line with other classes.

Now when you take Storm Calling, you actually get another useful buff. Previously you'd have to subclass Dark Magic which nobody does for a DD. I'd go a step further and move Minor Prophecy to Storm Calling too. Maybe even Crystal Fragments. Make Dark Magic pure tanking / healing.

If they move frags + minor prophecy + major prophecy/savagery to storm calling, I would agree this change could work, I just really don't see it happening though, especially since we are now in the PTS which is basically what goes live and what would be required would be a lot of work, especially on the Art side that takes much longer than we have on the PTS (making frags into a shock damage spell to fit the lines theme and changing whatever is moved out of storm calling to fit the dark magic theme).

Malyore · July 9

This and the changes to Nightblade are a bad move to introduce after subclassing imo. For pure classes it just means rearranging some skills. But now for those who sub/multiclass, it strips entire fundamental buffs out of builds.
If I could simply get Major Resolve on any of the scribing abilities it wouldn't be as big of an issue. But most of the scribing skills I do use, or are not being saved for a different armory slot loadout, can only grant its minor version.

Hopefully they will, once again, revert their sorc nerf changes like they did in the last pts cycle. At the very least, make one of the morphs function like they used to.

DerAlleinTiger · July 9

Malyore wrote: »

This and the changes to Nightblade are a bad move to introduce after subclassing imo. For pure classes it just means rearranging some skills. But now for those who sub/multiclass, it strips entire fundamental buffs out of builds.
If I could simply get Major Resolve on any of the scribing abilities it wouldn't be as big of an issue. But most of the scribing skills I do use, or are not being saved for a different armory slot loadout, can only grant its minor version.

Hopefully they will, once again, revert their sorc nerf changes like they did in the last pts cycle. At the very least, make one of the morphs function like they used to.

Yes. Please.

If bound armaments/aegis don't give the same buffs as one another, why do hurricane and boundless storm have to? Hell, why does sorc have to have only 1 single source of major resolve? That's the whole point of the major and minor system with buffs is that you can't double them up. If I'd rather have boundless storm for my major resolve instead of bound aegis, why not? Let hurricane be the damage morph and boundless storm the tank one. Let those of us who want to embrace the lightning with battlemage tanks continue to embrace it.

It's not like the concept is unprecedented either. Other classes like warden have some skills where one morph is for one role and the other morph is for a different one. That isn't even a new concept for sorc itself with the two surge morphs.

hoangdz · July 9

Radiate77 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

so relentless and BA are now exactly the same skill?

Omg lol .. I just managed to get on to NB and it's worse than I thought.

Relentless despite costing -1 stack, still has a cap of 10, so it's like the other thread said, you can now fire this skill 3 times.

Get to 9 stacks, light (10), Relentless (6), light (7), Relentless (3), light (4), Relentless (0).

Oh, there’s no way that makes it live. 😂

Lmao so now if I want major resolve i have to give up major savagery. Great change zos great change

Navaac223 · July 9

I have now come to accept that we should all stop playing pvp and go join heavy attack DDs in vCR pugs. At least this playstyle is never getting destroyed by zos

Hotdog_23 · July 9

Hate the change, but don't see them backing off from it. Looks at jabs on Templar. Almost no one liked the change, and ZOS has remained steadfast in ignoring the many requests to revert the change. Guess the Daedric Summoning skill line is a sorcerer tanking skill line now somehow. Why else have major resolve in the skill line?

Arrow312 · July 9

React wrote: »

Really, really sad to see one of the staple core identity skills of sorc be stripped away like this. The skill has been iconic for a decade as the source of resolve on the class. It's so obvious this is being done simply because a lot of people are using it in pvp, which is just depressing as it confirms the studio intends to take the "nerf strong things" approach rather than the "buff weak things" approach.

Totally agree seems they check which skill lines most of the players use and the decided to nerf the skills they using.

EnerG · July 9

I honestly don't understand alot of the motivation for these "balance" changes, and im a big proponent of swatting the power level back down. But this just seems inconvenient for anyone who doesnt play the current meta for both pvp and pve.

Arvedia · July 9

Soarora wrote: »

Arvedia wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Arvedia wrote: »

Pure Sorc-Tank is officially dead with these changes. Sad, but I had my fun at least

Again, no, pure sorc tank is fine. You need bound aegis in some circumstances to begin with (ERE HM, I find it useful for FV HM) and if you have a healer running frost cloak then you get major resolve from them anyways and don't need a major resolve skill. The loss of minor protection and 8% max magicka feels out of nowhere and displeasing but I think we'll be fine as tanks. I will be using a sorc tank tomorrow and I'll eat my words if replacing hurricane with something else makes a big difference, but I really think it's too much to say that sorc tank is dead. We are plenty useful to a group, we'd be dead if they took our group buffs away (please zos don't do that).

To be clear, I am not in support of changing lightning form and bound aegis, but this will not kill sorc tank.

Not too long ago sorcerers were able to heal themselfs with shields and had +10% Stamina and Magicka, 18% max Magicka with bound aegis

Now we have 5% Stam (-5%)
5% Magicka (-13% which is insane)
No minor protection
No heal other than dark exchange and pets
Also you wont have a speed buff anymore since boundless storm lost its major resolve buff

So yes, I would claim that pure Sorc-Tank will be dead with those changes. There will be no reason, at least no reasons that I can think of, to play this class anymore without subclassing - at least from a Tank's perspective

Am I happy with the changes? No. Do any of these things kill sorc tank? Also no.

I almost always have very good sustain, so max resource dropping shouldn’t be a big deal.

Minor protection is whatever, my cro tank doesn’t have it and she’s fine.

Clannfear was the OG heal and yet even before hardened ward was given a heal (mind you, the lifespan of ward healing was only like a year), I didn’t run clannfear all the time. DSA s&b + puncture or just trusting the healer are other options. Not including things like shroud and scribing now.

All the things that make sorcerer a good tank choice are still present, we still survive well, have great mobility, and supply useful buffs to the group. Even if pure class because theres something useful in every line (lightning -> synergy, streak. The other line -> vibrant shroud).

If you like sorc tank keep playing sorc tank. I sure will, it’s my favorite tank class. Granted, I also play templar tank as my third tank so maybe I am crazy.

Of course, it's still possible to play as a pure sorc tank but you will be miles behind any subclassing tank. And that's what I really dislike about this whole thing. Before this subclassing dilemma ZoS always seemed to try to balance things between PVP and PVE and this is probably also why they removed the healing from the shield which really helped playing as a tank. Now it's not only PVE and PVP but also subclassing. I do understand that it's not easy and probably not even entirely possible to balance this game with all that in mind, but it just feels like we are being forced to use this new system.

GloatingSwine · July 9

Spearblade wrote: »

I made a post a couple days ago in regards to Sorcerer not having defined skill line identities. Newly added classes like Warden, Necromancer, and Arcanist were all designed with a Damage, Healing, and Tanking skill line. Revisions have been made to most of the other base game classes, or natively had more balance between the roles than Sorcerer has.

None of the base game classes really have that defined Damage/Tank/Healer line because the tools are spread across the lines.

Like I play DK Tank and the tanking tools are spread across Earthen Heart (unique buffs/debuffs) and Draconic Power (self-heal and armour).

IMO though if they want to change the older classes (which they probably should given how they interact now with subclassing less effectively than the new skill lines) they should rip the plaster off and do each class all in one go not twiddle two skills at a time. Figure out which line is going to be which, move the tools for that role into it and make sure they work properly together and make sure every class has at least one unique thing it brings to the tank and healer roles.

ZhuJiuyin · July 9

This patch is a real mess for Sorc. If Daedric Summoning is a tank line (and it probably should be), why give Bound Armaments Weapon Critical and Spell Critical, a DPS buff, to put on the tank line?

Not to mention that many have pointed out that Bound Armaments' damage and ability effectiveness lag far behind similar Grim Focus, which deals more damage, provides additional healing, has a lower cost, and has a permanent stacking time.

In addition, Sorc is the only class without a passive that grants additional ultimate points, while NB has two passives that grant ultimate points.

Over the past several patches, people have repeatedly asked why Sorc is always treated the worst and even ridiculed by the developers multiple times? The "If you don't like pets, you can replace blah blah..." line will be brought up again and again and deepen the animosity between players and developers before Sorc is seriously redesigned. Is this really what ZOS wants?

MincMincMinc · July 9

GloatingSwine wrote: »

Spearblade wrote: »

I made a post a couple days ago in regards to Sorcerer not having defined skill line identities. Newly added classes like Warden, Necromancer, and Arcanist were all designed with a Damage, Healing, and Tanking skill line. Revisions have been made to most of the other base game classes, or natively had more balance between the roles than Sorcerer has.

None of the base game classes really have that defined Damage/Tank/Healer line because the tools are spread across the lines.

Like I play DK Tank and the tanking tools are spread across Earthen Heart (unique buffs/debuffs) and Draconic Power (self-heal and armour).

IMO though if they want to change the older classes (which they probably should given how they interact now with subclassing less effectively than the new skill lines) they should rip the plaster off and do each class all in one go not twiddle two skills at a time. Figure out which line is going to be which, move the tools for that role into it and make sure they work properly together and make sure every class has at least one unique thing it brings to the tank and healer roles.

Well if this goes through that only solidifies that zos will start to transition the skill lines to be a damage line, a tank line, and a support line. I could see Dk being jumbled up for sure. Templar and NB are pretty much already split up.

I would much rather zos makes each individual line viable on its own bringing the trinity in its own ways. Having dedicated all damage lines is only going to power creep builds from having 1 damage skill line to 3 damage skill lines......which we already see as meta in pvp.

Artim_X · July 9

Rubbish change is rubbish. God forbid pure lightning sorcerers can be well rounded with decent defense in PvE.

I love using hurricane in PvP for the defense and speed. A change like this lacks insight on how players utilize their skills.

ZOS, subclassing is nice and all but stop killing playstyles just for the sake of doing it.

Cooperharley · July 9

Just another change towards homogenizing the game. Seems like they just consistently are running from having abilities have aspects of tankiness AND damage. They want either or - that’s what it seems like at least

Soarora · July 9

Arvedia wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Arvedia wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Arvedia wrote: »

Pure Sorc-Tank is officially dead with these changes. Sad, but I had my fun at least

Again, no, pure sorc tank is fine. You need bound aegis in some circumstances to begin with (ERE HM, I find it useful for FV HM) and if you have a healer running frost cloak then you get major resolve from them anyways and don't need a major resolve skill. The loss of minor protection and 8% max magicka feels out of nowhere and displeasing but I think we'll be fine as tanks. I will be using a sorc tank tomorrow and I'll eat my words if replacing hurricane with something else makes a big difference, but I really think it's too much to say that sorc tank is dead. We are plenty useful to a group, we'd be dead if they took our group buffs away (please zos don't do that).

To be clear, I am not in support of changing lightning form and bound aegis, but this will not kill sorc tank.

Not too long ago sorcerers were able to heal themselfs with shields and had +10% Stamina and Magicka, 18% max Magicka with bound aegis

Now we have 5% Stam (-5%)
5% Magicka (-13% which is insane)
No minor protection
No heal other than dark exchange and pets
Also you wont have a speed buff anymore since boundless storm lost its major resolve buff

So yes, I would claim that pure Sorc-Tank will be dead with those changes. There will be no reason, at least no reasons that I can think of, to play this class anymore without subclassing - at least from a Tank's perspective

Am I happy with the changes? No. Do any of these things kill sorc tank? Also no.

I almost always have very good sustain, so max resource dropping shouldn’t be a big deal.

Minor protection is whatever, my cro tank doesn’t have it and she’s fine.

Clannfear was the OG heal and yet even before hardened ward was given a heal (mind you, the lifespan of ward healing was only like a year), I didn’t run clannfear all the time. DSA s&b + puncture or just trusting the healer are other options. Not including things like shroud and scribing now.

All the things that make sorcerer a good tank choice are still present, we still survive well, have great mobility, and supply useful buffs to the group. Even if pure class because theres something useful in every line (lightning -> synergy, streak. The other line -> vibrant shroud).

If you like sorc tank keep playing sorc tank. I sure will, it’s my favorite tank class. Granted, I also play templar tank as my third tank so maybe I am crazy.

Of course, it's still possible to play as a pure sorc tank but you will be miles behind any subclassing tank. And that's what I really dislike about this whole thing. Before this subclassing dilemma ZoS always seemed to try to balance things between PVP and PVE and this is probably also why they removed the healing from the shield which really helped playing as a tank. Now it's not only PVE and PVP but also subclassing. I do understand that it's not easy and probably not even entirely possible to balance this game with all that in mind, but it just feels like we are being forced to use this new system.

That is true that subclassing is vastly better for tanks, as it is for every role, unfortunately. I’m still gonna stay pure class, I’m stubborn, but the buff/debuff/general comp potential from dipping into other classes does make it hard to not subclass. At least on the bright side, streak and shroud are in other lines so we have that going for us. Wish negate still took up ground AoEs, maybe would make it a bit more interesting. Then I guess give us one more thing in the lightning line. Granted, I don’t remember passives.

Jsmalls · July 9

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I just can't fathom how this benefits Mag or Stam Sorcs.

Stam Sorc's that wanted to use Bound Armaments are losing 8% Stam, gaining major savagery, but losing access to the only in class major resolve buff by picking this morph... While getting minor force from hurricane that we already had, and a tiny bit better uptime on minor berserk which we already kept up because... Woah wait, the skill only lasts 10s so we want to use it every 10s. At the end of the day if I wanted Major Savagery and Bound Armaments, why would I take Daedric Summoning over Assassination for Grim Focus? Relentless Focus has a burst heal, 4 stacks, and deals 21% more damage than Bound Armaments, all the while providing the buff I want.. then there's Mercilous which is just insane right now.

Mag Sorc's that want to use Daedric Summoning and Ward, now have -13% Magicka from 2 patches ago, no 15% heal (which needed to be nerfed, but not entirely removed imo), to get minor force on Hurricane/Boundless when they were previously slotting a monster set to avoid them in the 1st place. So news flash, they're not gonna slot them for minor force either, especially since they need to make up for the lost defence/offense with the much less Magicka scaling. Oh and you lost minor protection too for reasons lol.

I haven't played this game in about 6 months. Had no incentive to come back when I heard subclassing was being added with no consideration for PvP balance.

Now my favorite class has been gutted (and playstyle of stacking Magicka the old staple of MagSorc for like 10 years...). All because a couple patches ago they added a heal to Hardened Ward. And you know why they added that? Because it wasn't a competitive defense option back then.

And guess what you've reverted it back to being useless. My old 50k Magicka setup from a couple patches ago is down to 43k. I've lost minor protection, minor resolve, 20% of my shield strength and the heal on Ward. That's a massive nerf to an ability that was only relevant for 2-3 patches. Why would I choose that defensive option over a Wardens now? But I guess that's the whole point... Forget the balance of individual classes. Well no thanks, hard pass.

jecks33 · July 9

Radiate77 wrote: »

Changing Lightning Form to be more in line with the Subclass that it belongs to is a step forward.

What I find odd, is that instead of taking a larger more “of scale” approach to this, only a few skills were adjusted?

All of the changes this update make sense, but there’s just too few of them given the major combat update we just had.

Do you want a U35 part2?

MincMincMinc · July 9

Jsmalls wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

I just can't fathom how this benefits Mag or Stam Sorcs.

Stam Sorc's that wanted to use Bound Armaments are losing 8% Stam, gaining major savagery, but losing access to the only in class major resolve buff by picking this morph... While getting minor force from hurricane that we already had, and a tiny bit better uptime on minor berserk which we already kept up because... Woah wait, the skill only lasts 10s so we want to use it every 10s. At the end of the day if I wanted Major Savagery and Bound Armaments, why would I take Daedric Summoning over Assassination for Grim Focus? Relentless Focus has a burst heal, 4 stacks, and deals 21% more damage than Bound Armaments, all the while providing the buff I want.. then there's Mercilous which is just insane right now.

Mag Sorc's that want to use Daedric Summoning and Ward, now have -13% Magicka from 2 patches ago, no 15% heal (which needed to be nerfed, but not entirely removed imo), to get minor force on Hurricane/Boundless when they were previously slotting a monster set to avoid them in the 1st place. So news flash, they're not gonna slot them for minor force either, especially since they need to make up for the lost defence/offense with the much less Magicka scaling. Oh and you lost minor protection too for reasons lol.

I haven't played this game in about 6 months. Had no incentive to come back when I heard subclassing was being added with no consideration for PvP balance.

Now my favorite class has been gutted (and playstyle of stacking Magicka the old staple of MagSorc for like 10 years...). All because a couple patches ago they added a heal to Hardened Ward. And you know why they added that? Because it wasn't a competitive defense option back then.

And guess what you've reverted it back to being useless. My old 50k Magicka setup from a couple patches ago is down to 43k. I've lost minor protection, minor resolve, 20% of my shield strength and the heal on Ward. That's a massive nerf to an ability that was only relevant for 2-3 patches. Why would I choose that defensive option over a Wardens now? But I guess that's the whole point... Forget the balance of individual classes. Well no thanks, hard pass.

You mean you don't want pvp builds to go from 7 classes with 21 skill lines to 90% of people only using 4 skill lines? (Storm, aedric, animal, assassin)

The tank and support oriented skill lines are going to be lost to time unless ALL skill lines are balanced independently. This change to storm is only perpetuating the split to everyone running the most efficient damage without restriction.

Lylith · July 9

DerAlleinTiger wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Its aimed at pvp subclassing. Storm Calling is one of the most used lines and part of it is hurricane. Im not saying i aggree, just that its the justification most likely-

Then they should change hurricane, not BOTH morphs and the base skill. At least with hurricane it's already the DPS-focused morph. I still might not like the change much, but I could understand it. Why change the magicka-based tanking morph to no longer give you an armor buff for tanking? What's the point there?

katorga wrote: »

no one uses storm calling for anything more than streak/overload in pvp since subclassing, tbh.For the longest time OG max mag sorcs were running mighty chudan to free up the skill slot. That tells you how valuable the skill was. The change is pointless, but ZOS is still nerfing max mag sorc as if it were still viable in subclass pvp.

IMO, they are trying to nerf the lines that worked well with the arcanist/NB meta. Stormcalling was good for passives + major resolve. One skill gave you all the passives + resolve + a dot. Not as good as arc/NB/Templar, but OK.

ofc it's ok.

nerfing sorcs is always ok, it's nearly a requisite feature in every update.

Thal · July 9

I’m all for streamlining/rebalancing the OG class lines en masse - I’d love for changes like this to retain more “class flavor” though versus total buff homogeneity. As an example, we could give hurricane an X% chance increase to proc the hemorrhaging effect, while Boundless Storm could have increased chance to proc Concussion. I’d also like to see them have a somewhat more unique homogenized added effect than what’s currently proposed.

With that said, I wish frags would move out of a completely dead skill line for DPS.

The conversation should most likely be broader for rebalancing skills/skill lines as compared to the DLC classes with fully baked/specialized skill lines.

AlterBlika · July 9

Since subclassing is a thing now, lightning form deserved a rework because it's just too loaded.
Nowadays they don't want you to have both damage and major resolve at the same time, and that's a good thing.