Hello, lightning form? U47 Sorc discussion

MincMincMinc

Lightning form has been the staple class defining major resolve skill for a decade now, why change it this way? The skill line as a whole is already geared towards damage as it is, so why more? This is coming from a 10 year stamsorc player finally able to have 2 more skill lines with subclassing. I understand the thought process was most likely due to the bound armor and merciless change. Which is about 8 or so years too late for bound armor...... it has always been solely used as a slottable passive and guess what, that isnt changing even though zos says they want skills to be more "active". If you wanted things more active, the actual button press effect would be more interesting or better. This PTS cycle raises alot of eyebrows into what balance theory should be used going forward. Mainly why balance class skill lines as a whole when subclassing forces them to stand alone now?


Original Stormcalling discussion - Zos reverted as discussed through the thread

Combat wise the animations for hurricane and lightning form and many other armor skills were designed to be VERY CLEAR that they were active for the purpose of knowing your main armor buff is on. Hurricane and lightning form quite literally turn your character transparent and make it extremely difficult to see other animations. So you may have trouble even keeping track of your other resolve buff of choice.

Daedric summoning is such a barren skill line that major resolve is not going to be enough to merit swapping to it. With ward being a shell of its former self, there is no reason for a normal build to run this line. Its only purpose is for niche gimped pet builds and extra block tank mit

If stormcalling is supposed to be a "damage skill line" what is the cohesion? It is the age old stamsorc dilemma of critsurge requires critchance, but funny enough there is none available. If zos wants skills to be more "active" (which I agree) then you should be designing like this: Hurricane grants minor expedition and does X damage around you, each second if you hit an enemy the hurricane grows granting you increased crit chance. Now the skill would be reduced to a minor buff if used incorrectly or a big power adder if used "actively"

If you want build variety and play how you want.....Why can't stormcalling be unique and be a weapon damage line. Give us a reason to run different gear on different skill lines. Maybe bound offers major courage, Minor courage, or minor brutality. Why did this line lose its % weapon damage bonus that incentivized running WD sets off meta? The flat stat doesn't give us a nudge in any direction, it is just power creep that you forget about.

Subclassing balance wise it is worrying that zos is not thinking of individual skill line balance and is instead making changes with the class mindset. What is the path forward? Should skill lines be designed with a theme in mind? A playstyle? Or are we just going to resort to ..... This is a damage, this is a tank, this is a healing skill line? Speaking of variety, why has every "damage" skill line fallen into the same crit oriented build trap? With no subclassing restriction stopping me from choosing 3 damage skill lines, what do you expect me to do but slot 3 damage skill lines lol.

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EDIT: Based of the thread direction I decided to write up how to restructure a spread out class like sorc with the MAIN GOAL of maintaining the various playstyles throughout the years now that subclassing broke up sorc. Listed below are the three skill lines with a basic descriptive outline for the common playstyles. Most notably I had moved ward and curse to be on dark magic with crystal frags to consolidate the typical shieldsorc skills. Daedric pets needs to play more into the pets aspect for its damage and tank playstyle. Stormcalling, as the first portion of the thread discussed, basically outlines all of stamsorc's kit and other than minor tweaks is in a good position.

Stormcalling - High mobility, response ready damage, heals based on aggression

1. Overload - Toggle cost per sec, Gives bonus effect boost to stormcalling skills.
   
2. Mages fury - stays the same OVERLOAD reduces cost by half
   • Endless - Your next 4 light attacks deal x shock damage, deals bonus damage on targets under 50% hp. (basically replaces LIVE crystal weapon)
   • Wrath - increased damage and 4s timer
3. Lightning form - Major Resolve + shocktick
   • Hurricane - Grants minor expedition. Phys tick per sec, if you hit an enemy, increases the damage and radius of the hurricane instead of guaranteed. OVERLOAD maxes out hurricane
   • Boundless - Major Expedition and 6s of snare/immobilize immunity OVERLOAD doubles the duration
4. Lightning chain - single target (force pulse all shock) which can bounce up to 2 additional targets behind the target with damage that falls off per. OVERLOAD increases the number of targets up to 5 additional.
   • Lightning flow - Returns cost per enemy hit, guarantees concussed on first enemy hit, 66% on second and 33% on third
   • Lightning control - Applies a debuff on 1 enemy for 5s and will guarantee the next chain will hit that enemy and deal bonus damage.
5. Surge - major brutality and heals per sec (the shorter ticks Reward building differently into crit/ticks/aoe) OVERLOAD allows ticks to happen 2x as fast.
   • Critical surge - Able to tick every 0.25s upon dealing a critical
   • Power surge - Able to tick every 1s less healing
6. Bolt Escape - no changes OVERLOAD stuns the full length
   • Streak - stuns and does damage at final location
   • BoL - Stuns at starting location, absorbs 12 projectiles near final
7. Capacitor - 141 regen is fine. I think something like 200 return while sprinting would fit well with the mobility aspect.
8. Energized - 5% phys and 15% shock
9. Amplitude - 10% to 1% is fine
10. Expert mage - this should give a 3%wd/sd bonus for each sorc skill slotted.....the % bonus incentivizes players to build into WD instead of just the Crit and pen like existing other damage lines.

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Dark Magic - Shield and timed burst

1. Negate - Honestly no change
   
2. Crystal shard
   • Crystal Frags - doesn't change, 33% proc with 66% bonus damage
   • Crystal Weapon - 0.8s cast time 7m range (crystal dizzy old stamsorc playstyle) High Damage, 33% chance proc to have a 1.2s cast time and stun the enemy with 33% added damage. (clear telegraph with proper reaction time)
3. Curse
   • Haunting curse - Hits twice
   • Draining curse - Returns magic while attacking enemy
4. Rune Prison
   • Cage - Stuns an enemy, stuns and deals damage if the enemy was blocking.
   • Defensive - Stuns the next enemy that attacks you and grants a shield based on hp if hit
5. Dark Exchange - These should just be flat resource return with no over time aspect to play into the max stat pool deficit playstyle
   • Dark Deal - Returns stam, heal scales with max stat
   • Dark Conversion - Returns mag, heal scales with max stat
6. Ward
   • Hardened ward - Increased tooltip and cap
   • Defensive ward - Ward's you and one group member within 7m, Heals if it persists.
7. Unholy Knowledge - Reduce the cost of all abilities by 6% increase max stats by 10%
8. Blood Magic - When you damage or heal using a dark magic skill, heal for X based on max health
9. Persistence - After blocking an attack your next ability costs 20% less
10. Exploitation - After successfully finishing a cast time, your next direct damage does 10% more damage

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Daedric Summoning - Pets, zone of control, and tanking

1. Atro - Just make this drop and move with you with a self synergy
   
2. Familiar - Double click to toggle on/off, with a cost/s
   • Clanfear - single click heal and headbut stun/taunts if aimed at a mob
   • Volatile - does more damage, single click low cost execute
3. Encase
   • Shattering - Roots enemies, heals and buffs pets hit by 10%
   • Vibrant - heal and major vitality
4. Winged Twighlight - Double click to toggle on/off, with a cost/s
   • Matriach - single click flies to ally and provides a hot
   • Tormentor - single click flies to enemy and provides reverse execute damage
5. Daedric Mines - Good zone control for pet build kiting
   • Tomb - at target location
   • Refuge - surround yourself with mines
6. Bound armor
   • Bound Aegis - 40% block mit 6s and grants you and 3 group members within 8m major protection
   • Bound Calling - 40% block mit 6s and AoE taunt grants CC immunity for the duration
7. Rebate - You restore resources when one of you daedric summoning skills ends
8. Power stone - Reduces the cost of ultimate abilities by 20%
9. Daedric protection - Reduces your damage taken by 5% while Deadric ability is active
10. Expert summoner - Increase your damage done for each active Pet (includes other pets like bear, netch, spirit, blastbones)

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Edited to reflect up to pg6 of thread discussion.

DerAlleinTiger

110% agree here. I just posted my own thread about this. This is one of the single worst changes they've made over multiclassing. I already wasn't a huge fan of multiclassing as a concept. This is actively starting to make me hate it now. So long my 11-year sorc tank main. What's the point now?

If this is your plan, ZOS, to try and make people want to multiclass? It's not working. I'm not using it, out of spite now more than anything. Stop this.

Alchimiste1

This is one of the most absurd changes I have seen in a long while. Why the heck does hurricane no longer provide armor buff.

No one asked for this. @Gilliamtherogue

Firstmep

Its aimed at pvp subclassing. Storm Calling is one of the most used lines and part of it is hurricane. Im not saying i aggree, just that its the justification most likely-

DerAlleinTiger

Firstmep wrote: »

Its aimed at pvp subclassing. Storm Calling is one of the most used lines and part of it is hurricane. Im not saying i aggree, just that its the justification most likely-

Then they should change hurricane, not BOTH morphs and the base skill. At least with hurricane it's already the DPS-focused morph. I still might not like the change much, but I could understand it. Why change the magicka-based tanking morph to no longer give you an armor buff for tanking? What's the point there?

MincMincMinc

Firstmep wrote: »

Its aimed at pvp subclassing. Storm Calling is one of the most used lines and part of it is hurricane. Im not saying i aggree, just that its the justification most likely-

Yeah you know why it is the most used? I can tell you it has way more to do with the raw damage in the skill line than anything...... Guess what it just got more of.

Old sorc players are going to be pissed, especially stamsorc players who have lived on just this skill line for years. Other players are going to jump for joy that they just got a 5% crit damage increase on their 50%-100% critchance builds.

DerAlleinTiger wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Its aimed at pvp subclassing. Storm Calling is one of the most used lines and part of it is hurricane. Im not saying i aggree, just that its the justification most likely-

Then they should change hurricane, not BOTH morphs and the base skill. At least with hurricane it's already the DPS-focused morph. I still might not like the change much, but I could understand it. Why change the magicka-based tanking morph to no longer give you an armor buff for tanking? What's the point there?

No the issue is that zos is still trying to balance class for class, when its not a relevant thought process anymore. Each skill line needs to be its own thing. Certain skill lines have been very flushed out and solid over the years and others have been lack luster. Daedric summoning for example has barely functionally coded pets that are pain to use. With passives that are not worth anything to the current state of the game.

MashmalloMan

DerAlleinTiger wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Its aimed at pvp subclassing. Storm Calling is one of the most used lines and part of it is hurricane. Im not saying i aggree, just that its the justification most likely-

Then they should change hurricane, not BOTH morphs and the base skill. At least with hurricane it's already the DPS-focused morph. I still might not like the change much, but I could understand it. Why change the magicka-based tanking morph to no longer give you an armor buff for tanking? What's the point there?

Because they seem to think that Mag Sorc and Hardened Ward is still S Tier in a subclassing meta, despite removing the 15% heal, 5% passive Magicka, and a further 8% Magicka, with some type of justification due to the new 5% mitigation passive which amounts to 2-3% in PvP and has nothing to do with Ward seeing as it's permanent with Bound Aegis on your bar.

None of this makes any sense.

Stamicka

Storm calling probably checked too many boxes for PvP builds. I think they should’ve just improved other lacking skill lines rather than nerf the good ones though.

Either way, this is subclassing. They now have to think about how each skill line can interact with all the others. It’s very difficult if not impossible to balance and any change will probably cause problems elsewhere. They should’ve kept this system away from the game.

FoJul

Stripping Sorc of its resolve is brutal. The answer is not subclass out. Really bad change imo.

MincMincMinc

Stamicka wrote: »

Storm calling probably checked too many boxes for PvP builds. I think they should’ve just improved other lacking skill lines rather than nerf the good ones though.

Either way, this is subclassing. They now have to think about how each skill line can interact with all the others. It’s very difficult if not impossible to balance and any change will probably cause problems elsewhere. They should’ve kept this system away from the game.

FoJul wrote: »

Stripping Sorc of its resolve is brutal. The answer is not subclass out. Really bad change imo.

Just the notion that its only losing it because zos cant think of a way to make bound armor a unique skill is mind boggling. If they wanted to make the skill more active, do something cool like with the block mit gen ult per hit or build up a shield per hit...... idk literally anything more active than a fire and forget buff.

MashmalloMan

I just can't fathom how this benefits Mag or Stam Sorcs.

Stam Sorc's that wanted to use Bound Armaments are losing 8% Stam, gaining major savagery, but losing access to the only in class major resolve buff by picking this morph... While getting minor force from hurricane that we already had, and a tiny bit better uptime on minor berserk which we already kept up because... Woah wait, the skill only lasts 10s so we want to use it every 10s. At the end of the day if I wanted Major Savagery and Bound Armaments, why would I take Daedric Summoning over Assassination for Grim Focus? Relentless Focus has a burst heal, 4 stacks, and deals 21% more damage than Bound Armaments, all the while providing the buff I want.. then there's Mercilous which is just insane right now.

Mag Sorc's that want to use Daedric Summoning and Ward, now have -13% Magicka from 2 patches ago, no 15% heal (which needed to be nerfed, but not entirely removed imo), to get minor force on Hurricane/Boundless when they were previously slotting a monster set to avoid them in the 1st place. So news flash, they're not gonna slot them for minor force either, especially since they need to make up for the lost defence/offense with the much less Magicka scaling. Oh and you lost minor protection too for reasons lol.

YandereGirlfriend

This change is so whack.

SaintJohnHM

Where do they get these idiotic ideas for skill changes?

MincMincMinc

I always suggested that something like hurricane could have played more into the active roll instead. If you let the storm grow the damage could increase, or have it so restarting the storm was more dense and tank or speed could increase. Maybe something similar could be done instead of force. Like 10% mit that diminishes while 10% damage done increases.

IDK literally put any more thought into making the skills reward more active thoughtful combat instead of click this without a second thought every 20s.

At this point just make all these types of skills toggles that cost when the cooldown hits.

ssewallb14_ESO

ZOS this has been a playstyle defining skill for 11 years, please stop doing this, it literally just makes the game worse and makes everyone mad about it.

React

Really, really sad to see one of the staple core identity skills of sorc be stripped away like this. The skill has been iconic for a decade as the source of resolve on the class. It's so obvious this is being done simply because a lot of people are using it in pvp, which is just depressing as it confirms the studio intends to take the "nerf strong things" approach rather than the "buff weak things" approach.

emilyhyoyeon

RE this change and PVE sorcerer tank:

Bound Aegis is getting major Resolve, so sorc tank isn't losing major Resolve. Sorc tank is losing minor Protection and +8% max magicka.


Not arguing for the change, just mentioning for clarity, since I saw PVE tank mentioned

edit: fixed

MashmalloMan

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

RE this change and PVE sorcerer tank:

Bound Aegis is getting major Resolve, so sorc tank isn't losing major Resolve. Sorc tank is losing minor Protection, minor Resolve, and +8% max magicka.


Not arguing for the change, just mentioning for clarity, since I saw PVE tank mentioned

Bound Aegis reads as providing minor and major resolve now, they only mentioned removing minor protection and the 8% mag.

Soarora

MashmalloMan wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

RE this change and PVE sorcerer tank:

Bound Aegis is getting major Resolve, so sorc tank isn't losing major Resolve. Sorc tank is losing minor Protection, minor Resolve, and +8% max magicka.


Not arguing for the change, just mentioning for clarity, since I saw PVE tank mentioned

Bound Aegis reads as providing minor and major resolve now, they only mentioned removing minor protection and the 8% mag.

Can confirm its minor + major resolve and the block mitigation. I checked on PTS. So, we only lost minor protection and 8% max magicka. We'll be okay.

MincMincMinc

This marks the second greatest loss to stamsorc since dizzy swing was ruined in elsweyr.

I still can't fathom that one. Offbalance is so convoluted, but they somehow claimed it was more clear of a CC than someone doing nothing but swinging a sword for 5+ human reaction times.

Now Bound armor needs to be more active, so instead of making the active portion more interesting we are stealing a generic fire and forget buff from a perfectly fine skill.

emilyhyoyeon

MashmalloMan wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

RE this change and PVE sorcerer tank:

Bound Aegis is getting major Resolve, so sorc tank isn't losing major Resolve. Sorc tank is losing minor Protection, minor Resolve, and +8% max magicka.


Not arguing for the change, just mentioning for clarity, since I saw PVE tank mentioned

Bound Aegis reads as providing minor and major resolve now, they only mentioned removing minor protection and the 8% mag.

oh I'd say this is an excellent change for sorcerer tank then if you drop Lightning Form for Flare's passive major protection and +10% magicka regen

madmufffin

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

RE this change and PVE sorcerer tank:

Bound Aegis is getting major Resolve, so sorc tank isn't losing major Resolve. Sorc tank is losing minor Protection, minor Resolve, and +8% max magicka.


Not arguing for the change, just mentioning for clarity, since I saw PVE tank mentioned

Bound Aegis reads as providing minor and major resolve now, they only mentioned removing minor protection and the 8% mag.

oh I'd say this is an excellent change for sorcerer tank then if you drop Lightning Form for Flare's passive major protection and +10% magicka regen

Minor protection, minor resolve, and max mag was vastly better than major and minor resolve

CameraBeardThePirate

This is one of the funniest (in a bad way) changes since removing Stalking Blastbones lol.

Just gutting a signature ability for no reason.

colossalvoids

Feels like they've took my old stamsorc and put a hat with a propeller on him saying "enjoy buddy" despite not logging in on that character for years now.

Zodiarkslayer

This is why PvP and PvE need to be separated!

katorga

no one uses storm calling for anything more than streak/overload in pvp since subclassing, tbh.For the longest time OG max mag sorcs were running mighty chudan to free up the skill slot. That tells you how valuable the skill was. The change is pointless, but ZOS is still nerfing max mag sorc as if it were still viable in subclass pvp.

IMO, they are trying to nerf the lines that worked well with the arcanist/NB meta. Stormcalling was good for passives + major resolve. One skill gave you all the passives + resolve + a dot. Not as good as arc/NB/Templar, but OK.

tsaescishoeshiner

Minor Force makes Lightning Form more of a DPS skill. Major Resolve being a passive buff on Bound Aegis makes it still better than other classes who need to spend magicka to cast a skill in order to have the buff, but will take up bar space for sorcs compared to before. However, you don't need Major Resolve in every context, and there are some Scribing sources for it.

I feel like the change makes sense if you only consider Lightning Form, the only issue is the impact of needing to add Bound Aegis in place of another skill and its lack of providing anything else. It'll also be an adjustment for subclassing builds using Lightning Form that now might need to find another source of Major Resolve.

Arvedia

Pure Sorc-Tank is officially dead with these changes. Sad, but I had my fun at least

konrad.reibinger

Hate to be this guy, but my eyes say "thanks" to ZOS for this change. Never liked this shiny lightning form, but always had to use it because of major resolve.

MincMincMinc

Again I just come back to the concept of:

"we want people to run skills for their active use"

"Removes active use and slaps on buffs to give a reason to run a skill"

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The skill system should be the tools we use for combat, not to enhance the one or two active skills on our bar. Even vengeance has more bar variety. Atleast in there we had reasons to have gap closers or aoe cleaves or single target dots or cc. Each skill had a functional active purpose. Compared to live which is just bloated with random mismatched minor buffs that only serve to power creep the game further into madness.

YandereGirlfriend

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

This is why PvP and PvE need to be separated!

This isn't a PvP change.