Hello, lightning form? U47 Sorc discussion

LukosCreyden · July 8

This change single-handedly kills a build I spent ages figuring out. Nor at all happy with this. Why change the core functuin of a skill that is working perfectly fine without issue? Why waste time on this when that abominable gravelord sacrifice still exists??

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 8

Class homogenisation, Stormcalling is no longer 'the tanking skill line' so thats all that matters when it comes to whether or not buffs are allowed in that line.

Wonder how long before we see Sun Shield and Rune Focus moved over to Dawns Wrath.

MincMincMinc · July 8

How about, why not just have lightning form and bound armor have major resolve? What is the harm?

Radiate77 · July 8

Changing Lightning Form to be more in line with the Subclass that it belongs to is a step forward.

What I find odd, is that instead of taking a larger more “of scale” approach to this, only a few skills were adjusted?

All of the changes this update make sense, but there’s just too few of them given the major combat update we just had.

WreckfulAbandon · July 8

This is a major nerf to sorc utility. That's about all I can say to avoid wading into a minefield of forum moderation.

MashmalloMan · July 8

It sucks, and I want it reverted entirely, but if I'm playing devil's advocate, thinking from their perspective and what they've said about this being a small tweak in a direction they want to continue in after viewing how subclassing is used by the players, I think it's obvious what they're trying to do.

Sorc has always been a mixed bag of skill lines with no clear role definitions in the lines. That speaks to its strengths, but also it's weaknesses. Technically, we asked for this (monkey's paw situation).

On one hand, I've loved having my major resolve buff attached to a competive damage skill for 11 years. I like being a bit more tanky in PVE environments, especially trials, where I find myself constantly ressing people in pug trials. The combination of Surge, Hurricane, and Beacon of Oblivion sacrifices a bit of DPS vs a more meta setup, but has made me much more survivable.

On the other hand, the lines are being more clearly defined now as we requested. Minor Force is now more accessible to damage dealers via Storm Calling outside of PvP where Dark Deal isn't used. Major Resolve is now within Daedric Summoning which seems to have the closest resemblance to a tanking line.

Now against my own argument, why is Major Prophecy/Savagery in the "tanking" line? Why do we need to give up Major Resolve to get it? Why is Minor Prophecy provided by the "healing" line? The Hurricane/Boundless change would make a lot more sense with further changes, but idk about you, I don't want to wait 3-12 months to see where that goes.

If I could work with that they've done and where it could go.. I'd do this..

Move Minor Prophecy to Storm Calling, add a healing done or healing crit chance passive to Dark Magic.
Move Major Savagery/Prophecy to Critical Surge.
Move Major Sorcery/Brutality to Lightning Form.
Bound Armor and all morphs now give Major Resolve, Bound Aegis adds Minor Resolve, Bound Armaments adds Minor Force.
Buff Daedric Protection passive to include "this effect doubles if a Ward is active" to incentivise interacting with Ward instead of an alternate heal with slot and forget Bound Aegis slotted.

Aside from numerous other changes like swapping skills I won't get into, I'd start with basic stuff like this (with their vision in mind). Personally I'd just want them to reverse it, but seeing as this is the only damage skill line in the game with major resolve, subclassing has made this impossible it will remain... And again, I suppose we asked for this. Ugh.

Tannus15 · July 8

You guys are tripping.

This is a huge buff to mag sorc, and at most a horizontal change to stam sorc.

Seriously, what are you all talking about?

Minor force on hurricane frees up the trap slot.
We can now combine BA + crit surge and run tri pots.

We get major resolve all the time for running BA?

How is this a nerf? I'm so confused.

WreckfulAbandon · July 8

Tannus15 wrote: »

You guys are tripping.

This is a huge buff to mag sorc, and at most a horizontal change to stam sorc.

Seriously, what are you all talking about?

Minor force on hurricane frees up the trap slot.
We can now combine BA + crit surge and run tri pots.

We get major resolve all the time for running BA?

How is this a nerf? I'm so confused.

So no more damage added to our armor buff and we have to take a new skill line, likely breaking many of our builds? I thought subclassing was my chance to drop the Sorcerer skill lines that have already been gutted of fun but guess I thought wrong.

Radiate77 · July 8

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

You guys are tripping.

This is a huge buff to mag sorc, and at most a horizontal change to stam sorc.

Seriously, what are you all talking about?

Minor force on hurricane frees up the trap slot.
We can now combine BA + crit surge and run tri pots.

We get major resolve all the time for running BA?

How is this a nerf? I'm so confused.

So no more damage added to our armor buff and we have to take a new skill line, likely breaking many of our builds? I thought subclassing was my chance to drop the Sorcerer skill lines that have already been gutted of fun but guess I thought wrong.

You can always Scribe a Major Resolve skill if you enjoy your current skill lines and find that you need the buff.

YandereGirlfriend · July 8

Radiate77 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

You guys are tripping.

This is a huge buff to mag sorc, and at most a horizontal change to stam sorc.

Seriously, what are you all talking about?

Minor force on hurricane frees up the trap slot.
We can now combine BA + crit surge and run tri pots.

We get major resolve all the time for running BA?

How is this a nerf? I'm so confused.

So no more damage added to our armor buff and we have to take a new skill line, likely breaking many of our builds? I thought subclassing was my chance to drop the Sorcerer skill lines that have already been gutted of fun but guess I thought wrong.

You can always Scribe a Major Resolve skill if you enjoy your current skill lines and find that you need the buff.

If I'm using Wield Soul I want that sweet, sweet Vitality. So it's still a hard nerf.

MincMincMinc · July 8

Tannus15 wrote: »

You guys are tripping.

This is a huge buff to mag sorc, and at most a horizontal change to stam sorc.

Seriously, what are you all talking about?

Minor force on hurricane frees up the trap slot.
We can now combine BA + crit surge and run tri pots.

We get major resolve all the time for running BA?

How is this a nerf? I'm so confused.

In what content do you run deadric summoning anymore on stamsorc? It is useless for PvP. The current meta without surprise is to run 3 damage lines maximizing crit damage, chance, and pen. People in dueling are already pushing 150%+ of crit damage with perfect pen and 100% critchance.

If lines only become "oh this is a damage skill line" Then we will just move towards the singularity of the most numerically perfect damage, tank, or healer builds. Simply put more balanced setups wont exist.

Subclassing should force zos into designing skill lines with the notion that they are standalone classes. Trying to balance pure classes is simply not going to work or make any sense anymore.

Tannus15 · July 8

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

You guys are tripping.

This is a huge buff to mag sorc, and at most a horizontal change to stam sorc.

Seriously, what are you all talking about?

Minor force on hurricane frees up the trap slot.
We can now combine BA + crit surge and run tri pots.

We get major resolve all the time for running BA?

How is this a nerf? I'm so confused.

So no more damage added to our armor buff and we have to take a new skill line, likely breaking many of our builds? I thought subclassing was my chance to drop the Sorcerer skill lines that have already been gutted of fun but guess I thought wrong.

PURE SORC is significantly better off.

Pet sorc gets some of it's majot pain points addressed.

Storm sorc is not more damage focused and now has access to minor force.

Yeah nah mate, I don't really care about your slight loss of utility. As a sorc main these are changes i've been wanting for literally years.

MashmalloMan · July 8

Tannus15 wrote: »

You guys are tripping.

This is a huge buff to mag sorc, and at most a horizontal change to stam sorc.

Seriously, what are you all talking about?

Minor force on hurricane frees up the trap slot.
We can now combine BA + crit surge and run tri pots.

We get major resolve all the time for running BA?

How is this a nerf? I'm so confused.

BA does not provide Major Resolve, you trade it for Major Prophecy/Savagery.

Also, your looking at this from a PvE perspective where Major Resolve isn't entirely necessary and Minor Force is.

Bound Armaments and the skill line itself is also underwhelming for PvE, there's no reason to use this line over Assassination. They only took away the passive ws damage on Grim Focus, but everything else is so much better. Additionally, Relentless Focus deals 20% more damage than BA for the same stacks, heals, and provides crit for slotting instead of damage with Storm Calling. You could do Storm, Daedric, and Assassination with pets, but good luck juggling BA, Merc, and Daedric Prey. You're gonna end up giving 1 or 2 of them away. There is only 6 slots with pets and there is still a spammable, Hurricane, weapon ground dot, and Killers Blade.

Lastly, Trap is one of the best single target dots in the game, even when you have Minor Force elsewhere, the skill still ends up on people's bars as the 1st flex in option if they don't have other class skills to use.

There is maybe some rare instances where this could be a buff, but rare is the key word here. The fact that Major Resolve is forced onto us via Bound Aegis means in PvP you're giving up +1 skill slot for nothing, seeing as we previously got it from Hurricane or a monster set. Minor Resolve is always provided by Vigor, it's a must, especially without the Hardened Ward heal. Mag Sorc's lose 8% Magicka and Minor Protection. Stam Sorc's lose 8% Stamina and a damage ability, to gain Minor Force we already had on Dark Deal and Major Prophecy/Savagery which can be obtained easily from potions or Scribing now.

Soarora · July 8

Arvedia wrote: »

Pure Sorc-Tank is officially dead with these changes. Sad, but I had my fun at least

Again, no, pure sorc tank is fine. You need bound aegis in some circumstances to begin with (ERE HM, I find it useful for FV HM) and if you have a healer running frost cloak then you get major resolve from them anyways and don't need a major resolve skill. The loss of minor protection and 8% max magicka feels out of nowhere and displeasing but I think we'll be fine as tanks. I will be using a sorc tank tomorrow and I'll eat my words if replacing hurricane with something else makes a big difference, but I really think it's too much to say that sorc tank is dead. We are plenty useful to a group, we'd be dead if they took our group buffs away (please zos don't do that).

To be clear, I am not in support of changing lightning form and bound aegis, but this will not kill sorc tank.

The_Meathead · July 8

React wrote: »

Really, really sad to see one of the staple core identity skills of sorc be stripped away like this. The skill has been iconic for a decade as the source of resolve on the class. It's so obvious this is being done simply because a lot of people are using it in pvp, which is just depressing as it confirms the studio intends to take the "nerf strong things" approach rather than the "buff weak things" approach.

If they're suddenly giving a crap about PvP, how about changing Grim Focus to where it can't double tap, rather than ooking around with the Weapon Damage on it?

I'm not even a Sorc and I'm furious about this change to a Major Resolve skill that nobody asked for. It's asinine.

WreckfulAbandon · July 8

Tannus15 wrote: »

PURE SORC is significantly better off.

Pet sorc gets some of it's majot pain points addressed.

Storm sorc is not more damage focused and now has access to minor force.

Yeah nah mate, I don't really care about your slight loss of utility. As a sorc main these are changes i've been wanting for literally years.

Yeah seems like more than a "slight" loss of utility to lose Major Resolve in PvP, but at least someone is happy with the change.

emilyhyoyeon · July 8

madmufffin wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

RE this change and PVE sorcerer tank:

Bound Aegis is getting major Resolve, so sorc tank isn't losing major Resolve. Sorc tank is losing minor Protection, minor Resolve, and +8% max magicka.

Not arguing for the change, just mentioning for clarity, since I saw PVE tank mentioned

Bound Aegis reads as providing minor and major resolve now, they only mentioned removing minor protection and the 8% mag.

oh I'd say this is an excellent change for sorcerer tank then if you drop Lightning Form for Flare's passive major protection and +10% magicka regen

Minor protection, minor resolve, and max mag was vastly better than major and minor resolve

I said if you drop Lightning Form (Boundless Storm on sorc tank) for Flare

old Bound Aegis + Boundless storm =
+8% magicka, minor resolve, minor protection + major resolve

new Bound Aegis + Flare =
major resolve, minor resolve + major protection, +10% magicka regen

So, the new ability setup is indeed better

Tannus15 · July 8

@MashmalloMan are the patch notes wrong then? Accord to the notes it's dropping the max stam, not major resolve.

both morphs of bound armour give major resolve.

MashmalloMan · July 8

Tannus15 wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

You guys are tripping.

This is a huge buff to mag sorc, and at most a horizontal change to stam sorc.

Seriously, what are you all talking about?

Minor force on hurricane frees up the trap slot.
We can now combine BA + crit surge and run tri pots.

We get major resolve all the time for running BA?

How is this a nerf? I'm so confused.

So no more damage added to our armor buff and we have to take a new skill line, likely breaking many of our builds? I thought subclassing was my chance to drop the Sorcerer skill lines that have already been gutted of fun but guess I thought wrong.

PURE SORC is significantly better off.

Pet sorc gets some of it's majot pain points addressed.

Storm sorc is not more damage focused and now has access to minor force.

Yeah nah mate, I don't really care about your slight loss of utility. As a sorc main these are changes i've been wanting for literally years.

Read my long comment, this is not as good as it looks because Major Resolve is not on Bound Armaments and Minor Force is a redundant buff in PvE, the content you're referring to.

I wanted this too, at least a version of it. I suggested to add Major Prophecy/Savagery to BA, but I never suggested to remove Major Resolve from Hurricane/Boundless and force it on to 1 morph of a tank skill.

Honestly, this could easily be resolved by switching things around like my previous comment said.

Move Minor Prophecy from Dark Magic to Storm Calling, move Major Savagery/Prophecy to Surge (where it always belonged), move Brutality/Sorcery to Lightning Form, move Minor Force to BA but add Major Resolve so it's on all morphs. Same outcome, but much more versatility.

MashmalloMan · July 8

Tannus15 wrote: »

@MashmalloMan are the patch notes wrong then? Accord to the notes it's dropping the max stam, not major resolve.

both morphs of bound armour give major resolve.

They're not wrong, read it again from Bound Armor where it states only Bound Armor and Bound Aegis get Major Resolve.

Also.. I can see it in game. This sucks.

Tannus15 · July 8

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@MashmalloMan are the patch notes wrong then? Accord to the notes it's dropping the max stam, not major resolve.

both morphs of bound armour give major resolve.

They're not wrong, read it again from Bound Armor where it states only Bound Armor and Bound Aegis get Major Resolve.

Also.. I can see it in game. This sucks.

ok yeah, that sucks. why take major resolve off bound armaments?

if they have taken it away from hurricane, then put it on BA

MashmalloMan · July 8

Tannus15 wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

@MashmalloMan are the patch notes wrong then? Accord to the notes it's dropping the max stam, not major resolve.

both morphs of bound armour give major resolve.

They're not wrong, read it again from Bound Armor where it states only Bound Armor and Bound Aegis get Major Resolve.

Also.. I can see it in game. This sucks.

ok yeah, that sucks. why take major resolve off bound armaments?

if they have taken it away from hurricane, then put it on BA

Because they probably think it having 2 major buffs is too much. Typically the farthest they'll go is a major + minor.

That's why my above solution is to give BA minor force and major resolve instead, freeing up the other swaps I mentioned. Boundless would technically have major exp and major brutality/sorcery, but exp is only 4s, I'm sure it would be fine by their standards.

MincMincMinc · July 8

Are we fine moving skill lines into singularities though? A lot of other skill lines will be gutted next if the goal is to go to "this is a tank skill line" "this is a damage skill line" etc.

PvP balance points out the obvious issue of too much sustain in the game, where everyone is only running all damage lines and damage sets. Even if resolve is taken off people are not going to run a useless line to get it. There are other round about ways......or they just go to the next best line which I assure you wont be summoning.

Tannus15 · July 8

so relentless and BA are now exactly the same skill?

MashmalloMan · July 8

Tannus15 wrote: »

so relentless and BA are now exactly the same skill?

No.

Relentless burst heals in melee range, fires 1 shot instantly instead of 4 with a 0.3s delay totalling 1.2s for easy dodging, while dealing at least +20% more damage, and providing 2.5% crit for slotting using 1 line vs 108 ws damage using 2 lines.

You get 5% mitigation, 330 Stam return, and 5% max Stamina.. but it doesn't really compare to 10% crit damage, 6.6% crit chance from flank, 1k Stam/mag return on kill, and access to Minor Savagery in 1 line instead of 2.

Essentially a Sorc needs 3 lines to make Bound Armaments even comparable to Grim Focus' 1 line. Even then, it's still worse.

YandereGirlfriend · July 8

Tannus15 wrote: »

so relentless and BA are now exactly the same skill?

More like BA is the Poor Man's Relentless because NB nerfs must always be gentle for some reason.

MashmalloMan · July 8

Tannus15 wrote: »

so relentless and BA are now exactly the same skill?

But yes, I'm just being butthurt. They're practically the same in every way functionally now.

Tannus15 · July 8

also, isn't this just the dumbest way to write it?

Bound Armor: This ability and the Bound Aegis morph now passively grant Major Resolve (up to 5948 Armor) for slotting on either bar, rather than granting Minor Protection (5% reduced damage taken) and increasing your Max Magicka by 5-8%.

Bound Armaments: This morph now grants Major Sorcery and Prophecy (12% Critical Chance) for slotting, rather than 8% Max Stamina.

instead of

Bound armour : This ability now passively grant Major Resolve (up to 5948 Armor) for slotting on either bar

Bound Armaments: This morph now grants Major Sorcery and Prophecy (12% Critical Chance) for slotting instead of major resolve
Bound Aegis: Also passively grants Minor Resolve while slotted

Yeah nah, they did this skill dirty.

Tannus15 · July 8

yeah, for this i'll go in to battle for.

@ZOS_Kevin WTF are we doing here guys?

I'm not sure I even need to say anything. Look at the 2 skills and explain the reasoning here?

MashmalloMan · July 8

Tannus15 wrote: »

so relentless and BA are now exactly the same skill?

Omg lol .. I just managed to get on to NB and it's worse than I thought.

Relentless despite costing -1 stack, still has a cap of 10, so it's like the other thread said, you can now fire this skill 3 times.

Get to 9 stacks, light (10), Relentless (6), light (7), Relentless (3), light (4), Relentless (0).