whitecrow wrote: »

I remember when tropes were something to be avoided in creative writing. Sigh.

metheglyn wrote: »

I only recently learned about Booktok, and only then because a book I had checked out of the library had some blurbs about how it was a booktok favorite, or creation, or whatever (book wasn't that interesting and I didn't finish it).

metheglyn wrote: »

I have to say, "book boyfriends who ruin your standards" made me laugh. Why would anyone want that?

metheglyn wrote: »

I actually just did a quest today in Reaper's March that dealt with Bosmer cannibalism, and it got me to thinking that they really don't touch on that any more in Bosmer stories.

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, I hope you feel better soon!

Syldras wrote: »

whitecrow wrote: »

I remember when tropes were something to be avoided in creative writing. Sigh.

Indeed. That's the main thing that left me speechless. I shouldn't have googled it, but of course I was curious then if there are actually a lot of people who "celebrate" tropes... Let's say I'm even more speechless now, and maybe slightly depressed. So many positive mentions! "Tropes are popular on social media where many users discuss and celebrate them." "Many users search for books that contain tropes they like and enjoy discussing their favorite tropes with others.", "Tropes bring safety.", "Tropes are important tools in writing to give the reader orientation.", and: "Tropes are especially popular in romantasy." (so we have that word again).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I have to say, "book boyfriends who ruin your standards" made me laugh. Why would anyone want that?

After googling the popularity of tropes I googled "book boyfriend". Huge mistake.

I fully understand enjoying how a character is written. I also understand liking certain fictional characters, I even understand finding some of them endearing, just for fun, in a non-serious way. But if I ever call Sotha Sil and Revus Demnevanni my "fantasy boyfriends" and get into fights with other people about who the "cutest fantasy boyfriend" is, please come here and try to bring me to reason again!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, I hope you feel better soon!

Thanks! It's a little annoying, but it can't last forever, can it?

ArchMikem wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I have to say, "book boyfriends who ruin your standards" made me laugh. Why would anyone want that?

After googling the popularity of tropes I googled "book boyfriend". Huge mistake.

I fully understand enjoying how a character is written. I also understand liking certain fictional characters, I even understand finding some of them endearing, just for fun, in a non-serious way. But if I ever call Sotha Sil and Revus Demnevanni my "fantasy boyfriends" and get into fights with other people about who the "cutest fantasy boyfriend" is, please come here and try to bring me to reason again!

I understand having crushes over fictional characters, I've had plenty, but going as far as creating entire relationships with one or more? The worst I could ever be accused of is writing my own Fiction short and self inserting into it. (which, I've actually done for Elder Scrolls, once...)

Also Revus is totes the cutest Boy.

colossalvoids wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

I'm wondering if that's a good idea. Aren't there masses of generic fantasy games? Why should people choose TES then? Or they might do, but then just move on after a short time, because if it's generic it's as good as any other game, so there's nothing that keeps them here long-term? I still think that the strong point this franchise has (or had?) was always its unique lore. That's a strong basis to build upon. I wouldn't waste that.

It's a financial decision i believe, not a creative one. Same path as Warhammer went (or better say the company behind it), for the same exact reason - to be the new Star Wars, Star Trek, whole Disney or what have you. But the crucial element as with every niche franchise and hobby is if the core base goes away and not cheering up anymore, "normies" getting disinterested very fast and see no point in pursuing same interests as they are going out of fashion. Same with music, some darker genres went out of the basements into the movie theatres and red carpets because fiery individuals behind it, of passion and how big it became in the underground to contain it there but it went down again when the new wind blown from another direction pretty fast.

Syldras wrote: »

Yes. There's too much... how to put it? Like they're just putting today's real world's sentiments or ideas into the game without checking whether it's plausible for Tamriel and its inhabitants or not. Like all that "Protect the environment!" talk in the newest content, that just doesn't seem plausible for a medieval world, at least not in the way they it comes across (Plausible for a medieval world: "The water has to be kept clean; if our crops die, people will hunger."; Implausible for a medieval world: "Protect the environment, it's the correct moral thing to do!"). It always makes me wonder how this may happen. Aren't they aware that these things are too un-medieval to seem plausible for this fictional world and therefore break immersion? Or doesn't plausibility have a big priority in writing for them? Or might they think the audience wants just that and appreciates it if things aren't "too foreign" compared to the modern real world they know? (Which seems strange to me. If I wanted to see a copy of the current real world, I wouldn't choose a medieval fantasy game.)

Add to that strange/random jokes, situatively completely inappropriate flirting (especially strange in this chapter; we're supposed to be in a hurry, someone is in danger of getting murdered, the whole island is in danger actually, but hey, it's still time to take a little break for sleazy innuendo out of the blue...), or meme-y stuff. I don't say there's no time or place for humour in Tamriel (I found this chapter's bantam guar quest quite funny; a bit silly maybe, but it was amusing - and it was something seperate, not interfering with any other quest, and the characters involved weren't completely sane... it fit well), but putting it into situations that are supposed to feel dangerous or tragic feels to me like the whole story isn't taken seriously. If not even the characters seem to care for a horrible threat or that someone has died, why should I take it seriously then? What of that should motivate me to be the hero and risk my life for that? I really don't understand why they write it like that. The writers are professionals, they surely must be aware that one shouldn't break the atmosphere that's been slowly built up to feel urgent and dangerous with some random weird joke? I'd really be curious about how they would explain that, because it seems rather counterproductive to me. Sometimes I wonder if that's done deliberately because they might believe that the average player can't handle a dire situation in a story for longer than 2 minutes, so they must throw in some weird jokes every few dialogues to "brighten the mood" (which it doesn't, it's just annoying to get thrown out of immersion by weird jokes all the time)?

They are, pretty sure of it. Environmentalist takes do indeed feel forced and out of place, as it's not enforced by the game's world. It can be based on religious aspects, culture maybe but it's definitely not something that comes naturally as is out of the blue. Nature was always considered a resource, the one that self replenishes indefinitely until very, very recently.

"Memefication" is probably up there making it more easy to relate to, making "viral" content for socials and future self referencing. Not sure if that's just to make people feel easier but more of making it more with modern mainstream media standards in mind. If they wanted a great story and good humor we would probably already have it, good writers aren't that uncommon nowadays. But they have guar plushies to sell, so...

Syldras wrote: »

I also have noticed that the stories of the earlier years often alluded to real world classical literature and myths. Stories known for centuries, sometimes even millennia. In another thread we just recently discussed whether Artaeum might be strongly modeled after Elysium, the island in Greek mythology. Or a general depiction of paradise. We found clear hints that the writers took John Milton's "Paradise Lost" from 1667 as an inspiration for some aspects. We know that the story of Pelinal Whitestrake has aspects borrowed from the story of Achilles; and there are more things clearly inspired by ancient myths. And honestly, these stories work. They incite emotions. I'd rather see something like that than writing based on memes or the latest trends that no one will remember anymore in 3 years.

I want to see great tragedies not simple moral stories with a message at the end presented to me on a platter like I was a small child incapable of understanding it otherwise. Yes, we still have a few outstanding stories, like the latest one of Corelanya Manor; and Telvanni Peninsula had the Tel Dreloth quest, which was also beautiful. But they're rare now, not the norm, while it felt the other way round in ESO's early years. I still remember the murders in Russafeld. I still remember the old man in Balmora who raised his children alone - and the tragedy about how they felt neglected and hated him, because they didn't know why he couldn't be there for them as much as he had wished to. I still remember Ulthorn the Hound. I still remember the sad childhood of Aranias who left everything behind and became the Wilderqueen. Can't we just return to stories like these?

Old lore and story telling, even ESO one's were created definitely with more care. Agree about the timeless base of it, it's most obvious with SP games though as it dragged all possible cultures, religions and cults, real world history and archeological findings in some way or another to make a unique blend, currently it doesn't feel like writers do care about that element and just basing of the already established lore as a tale without a context of where it was taken from and what it should have meant. It's not even necessary imo but what they are coming up with feels uninspired and bland as a result, probably hinting at their disinterest in the lore or with topics which the lore was assembled from. Even when they're honestly trying with some more esoteric ideas it falls flat because lack of points of reference it seems, i'd even prefer it staying ambiguous rather than have some modern hip explanation of something they themselves don't have a slightest idea about.

Syldras wrote: »

This year I thought that continuing the base game main quest could mean returning to the old seriousness and style of how the quests were back then - at least somewhat. Just a turn back into the old direction. I don't want to judge the main quest yet, as it's split in half,... But sometimes I do wonder whether ESO has just become a kind of backdrop for me, to wander through Vvardenfell and make up my own stories. Which isn't bad in itself, but ESO could be so much more, so it's sad.

Same thing here for me. It's still somehow my favorite setting but not sure (or just don't want to accept it) about the whole franchise going forward, so I'm more drifting into other existing IP's that have quite close ideas in mind for their worlds as TES had years back, like FromSoft ones who are going even further with creative ideas than i could ever imagine, drawing from the exact same sources as TES did in times of Morrowind and around that time period. Though compared to Morrowind which had some story \ lore puzzle elements it's actually a one enormous puzzle to solve, which is also make it fresher than getting everything served and chewed up, which is a norm nowadays.

Syldras wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

It's a financial decision i believe, not a creative one. Same path as Warhammer went (or better say the company behind it), for the same exact reason - to be the new Star Wars, Star Trek, whole Disney or what have you. But the crucial element as with every niche franchise and hobby is if the core base goes away and not cheering up anymore, "normies" getting disinterested very fast and see no point in pursuing same interests as they are going out of fashion. Same with music, some darker genres went out of the basements into the movie theatres and red carpets because fiery individuals behind it, of passion and how big it became in the underground to contain it there but it went down again when the new wind blown from another direction pretty fast.

One thing that makes me wonder is this: TES has never been something obscure, strange and esoteric; it was always one of the big mainstream rpg franchises, sometimes even so popular that it had the power to define the mainstream or set new standards. TES3 Morrowind had high ratings in gaming magazines and is highly acclaimed still today, and the same could be said about Oblivion and Skyrim. These were popular games. And I think that ESO also had a good start, and the chapters/dlcs Morrowind, CWC and Summerset were also successful. And the base game and the first chapters had complex stories and morally more complicated topics. So back then they seemed to have thought that this was the standard to go for mainstream success. What has changed, why is this level of complexity not seen as fitting anymore today? Summerset was 7 years ago... and within those few years (I honestly don't think it's a long time to expect huge shifts in sentiment?) we went from complex adult tragedies to stories that would rather fit a children's program.

Also, I always had the feeling that ESO became less popular with the standard of writing getting less complex, not more popular. If surveys come up in the forum about what the best chapter was, most people will vote for either Morrowind or Summerset. Shouldn't that raise questions as for why? If I'd want the game to become more popular again, I'd look into what people loved about Summerset and aspire to get on that level again. Not try random different things or get meme-y or what ever.

I think I already wrote it in a different thread once (or was it even here, pages ago?): All I hope is really that it gets acknowledged again how valuable TES lore is. It's the franchise's strong point to build upon. So the writer's first goal should be contributing to TES lore in a meaningful and lore-appropriate way - and not thinking about putting moral messages into stories the first thing, or commenting on a current real world issue, or alluding to some funny trend or meme. And secondly, it should be about telling interesting stories that incite emotions. This should be the vision - and in the earlier years of ESO, I truly had the feeling that this was what they were striving for. The Morrowind chapter had so many references to TES 3, was closing lore gaps and elaborated on things happening in TES history later in a reasonable way; in CWC we had all the wonderful Sotha Sil lore. That's how I want to see the already established TES lore being treated in ESO. In ESO's earlier year one truly had the feeling that the writers love this fictional world they are writing for. I'm not saying they don't like what they're doing now - but for me, as a player, I somehow had the impression there was more enthusiasm back then.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But I do think there's been a trend away from the more nuanced and interesting characters and quests, which is a shame, because I like Elder Scrolls for its own sake and don't want it to be shifting about with memes and real world culture.

I mean, they have always included parts from the real world into Tamriel's lore. But usually historical things, that fit some fantasy-historical setting, not modern things; which indeed makes a huge difference in atmosphere. I honestly don't really get why they're not doing that that much anymore, as it was a good formula? There's still so much they could make of that.

Syldras wrote: »

Back to the topic of romance we had earlier; I don't get why it's only this superficial bawdiness now, or "love stories" that often seem to have no substance at all (No matter if it's "random lady falls in love with random buff shirtless guy" or the strange Leramil + Gadayn romance that was based on what?) - but in the earlier years we had, sometimes tragic, stories mostly focused about what love makes people do - for better or for worse - , and inciting emotions through this. Sometimes they might not even have been primarily love stories, but still, it was love that caused events of the storyline. The whole story about the last two Green Ladies, for example. And I just recently thought about the "Murder in Lillandril" quest again - that was a horribly tragic quest, but also an example for the deep love between two people; it was certainly more touching than "random person swooning over random person, because random person is good-looking, and for some reason you should decide to help them or something".

Syldras wrote: »

But actually, that wasn't even what I wanted to write about What I wanted to write about was that there are enough (classic) literary examples that would fit the world of TES very well, so I don't get why they rather make something out of these at least (if they don't come up with completely new ones) instead of the superficial stuff? There's so much that is ages old, but would still work very well today and would also be understandable to today's people.

I mean, I really don't have that much of a clue about romance literature, and actually none at all about modern stuff; but I've come across some while reading the complete works of some classical authors (like Shakespeare, for example, or Dostoevsky - White Nights is a very beautiful story, by the way), add to that a bit of opera, medieval chivalric stories like Tristan and Iseult, and ancient myths of course - there's so much in Greek and Roman mythology, if I think of the ones portrayed in Ovid's Metamorphoses alone: Alcyone and Ceyx, Pygmalion, Pyramus and Thisbe (who were the inspiration for Romeo and Juliet), Orpheus and Eurydice, Proserpina. Of course, many of these stories might not be very safe from today's point of view either. And maybe also too complex, who knows. But some of them would also be plausible on Nirn, adapted to TES lore, of course, and I'd really rather see something like that than mindless bawdy flirting. Of course, it would be most interesting if the stories would incorporate specific TES lore, so we'd also learn more about the Tamrielic cultures in the process; maybe their cultural differences could even be a factor that causes a problem or even a tragedy in the end. That would be what I'd want to see in a love story set in Tamriel (and possibly beyond), even as someone who's actually not that much interested in romance literature.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So now they've moved to this season method, and this current one is like a hybrid of chapter and season. Maybe with the full season model they want to get to, the stories can be more grounded in Elder Scrolls lore and get back that feeling of Tamriel that seems to be lacking lately.

I'd hope it, of course, but I'm not too sure whether I'd want to be optimistic about that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

If Dark Brotherhood content is upcoming, as I've seen said, they really can't turn that into a modern day ethics lesson. At least I hope not.

Who knows. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me anymore.

But also, wouldn't it be strange somehow if you may play some brutal murder cultist in one type of content, but except for that, everything else gets sanitized from any darker aspects? This also makes the whole thing feel less plausible, less like a "realistic", living fictional world, but more like a theme park - as if you have some areas or attractions where you are allowed to be evil, but outside of those, we're all family friendly and safe again, of course.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Adding real world modern mindsets to ESO lore sometimes comes across as abrupt or clashing.

Sometimes I wonder if it might even partially be a language issue, at least in the German translation. There's often a clearer distinction in German between today's common language and what people would expect from a story set in past times, be it historical fiction, fantasy, fairytales or myths. I mean, I'm aware that English also has something like that (and it's also utilized in TES games a bit; I always played Morrowind in English, but Oblivion in German, and now I'm playing the Oblivion Remaster in English for the first time - a bit late to the party, but I won it in a contest, so, thanks Bethesda!), but my subjective feeling is that it might even be more of a difference in German. So if some modern world topic is somehow included into a story, it might feel even stranger because there's just no fitting "historical-sounding" terms for it, and even if one would try to paraphrase it... I don't know, it just comes across as weird. Let alone they might not even try to paraphrase it but just insert it the way it is, and then it clashes with the linguistic style used for the rest of the dialogues even more.

And then there's the topics. Of course there are also cultural differences worldwide, and some topics might be very present in media in the USA now, but not at all in Germany (and the other way round of course, and the people in Asia or South America might have other completely different topics). So if one's aware of some of these differences and then it comes up in ESO... Well. Then the average German will think of real world North America, not about Tamriel.

Same for some words, actually. There's one insult I can't write here (I already know the forum censors it, because I wrote about this example in another thread before, months ago); or let's say it originally meant "illegitimate son". It's used regularly as an insult towards the baddies in ESO. And in media of all kind originating from English-speaking countries, actually, movies, literature, games,... And while there are lots of swearwords in German, too, this one is not used here (the word itself exists, it's the same as in English actually, but it's just not a part of the common vocabulary here). So if it comes up in a movie scene, the average person will immediately be reminded that this movie is from an English-speaking country. And that's fine, of course. But it's a bit immersion-breaking in that moment, because if we're watching some fantasy movie taking place who knows where, we want to imagine having a look at that fictional country, not at the set of a Hollywood movie, right? I often wonder why they don't swap it for some more common local insult in the translations, actually. They also translate location names, after all, and are really good at that, so exchanging swear words and insults to the ones common here shouldn't be no problem at all. Now I imagine Orcs swearing in Bavarian Well, maybe something more neutral would be more appropriate.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I mean, after all, Jakarn is strutting his stuff fairly early on, and for him the romance is very superficial, even transactional, and based on his looks and swagger. It fit his character then, because of the rest of the story going on around him, but when they brought him back in a later chapter, well, you know how that went. But he was just one type of love/romance/affection story they had, and so it didn't stand out so much, or seem so strange.

Most of all I perceived him as a con-man in the earlier content, who was witty (or at least witty enough) to use his flirting to trick people, which didn't seem to be a thing anymore at all in High Isle.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The kicker is, though, I'm just one person and plenty of people do like the lighter themes and joke-filled content.

I mean, jokes are fine - but only jokes?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In fact, I think my main might be going slowly insane, because I do make him participate in every quest, regardless of what he thinks about it. Or maybe he's just had too much exposure recently to a certain Telvanni's ideas, and that is breaking his mind.

I'm always happy if I can assist people in their journey into moral decline and madness!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, you are supposed to keep your membership of the murder cult a secret.

Still, we happily tell Isobel about it ("Is there anything else I should know about?" - "I understand that you have obligations to your friends in the Dark Brotherhood. If I might ask a favor? Allow me to step away when you're engaged in such activities. My honor makes it hard to reconcile our friendship and your actions."), and wasn't there also a situation where we talk to Elam Drals, clearly exposing ourself to be a fellow assassin, while some other npc is present? Eveli it was, I think?

But, even without these rather lore-breaking situations... I'd assume someone who is a member of the Dark Brotherhood might not be the most moral person in general? So even with the intention to keep the cult membership a secret, that person might not be super friendly and make the most moral choices most of the time. But still, we're restricted to those in most of the content. That's a little strange.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Or did you just mean that the quests we do for the Dark Brotherhood might end up all light and fluffy?

Who knows, maybe they'll make some moral "murder for the greater good" story out of it?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, you're very good at it!

Thanks! You'll get a special place on my list of people I corrupted.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I found the interaction with Isobel a bit odd, because if I was doing Dark Brotherhood work, of course I wouldn't have a companion along. An assassination just isn't something you I bring a friend to.

Depends on the friend, really. And also whether it's a lawful or an unlawful assassination.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Haha, oh yeah. They could very well do that. Because it's not really bad murder if the person is all evil and deserves it!

I honestly could see it coming. It would be strange, of course - to let you be an "evil lawless assassin" - just that you couldn't actually be completely evil then, only evil to an extend that the typical action movie revenge stories portray as being somehow morally okay-ish, because if you go beyond that with your murdering, somebody might be shocked...

In the end it would feel trope-y again. Clearly defining rules for evilness, or let's say "acceptable fictional evilness". And the truly evil deeds would probably remain reserved for the baddies. Or maybe not even them, we'll see.

It's also trope-y, by the way, how the worship of evil deities is often portrayed. There's always the evil or insane cultists who worship the evil deity because they're evil and the deity is evil too. While real world historical cultures also had deities who were evil or harmful, and who were worshipped, but usually not because people celebrated their evil aspect, but to appease them. We never see anyone doing something to appease the Daedric Princes in TES, do we?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes! It'll all have been worth it then.

I've also already corrupted several Bosmer, and a lot of Dunmer, of course.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lawful like a Morag Tong writ? I guess those agents don't always work alone.

Exactly that. Although who knows how long they can even continue their services; it's probably very unsafe what they're doing? Maybe they'll be allowed to subsist if they get a nice moral codex, too, and don't just kill whom they've been paid for.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's a good question. I was trying to come up with an instance of it, but couldn't. We see people worship them, and try to trick them, and oppose them, but I really can't recall a quest where we find out someone was acting like they did as a method to appease them.
But yes, I would like to see some different motivations for people who worship the evil deities instead of just "because evil." (Ha, isn't that kind of what started this whole thread?)

We always come back to this.

I've been reading comments at a different place a bit, by the way, and there was something I was astounded about again. I mean that's often the case, of course, but this might be remarkable: There were several accounts of people finding Wormblood super awesome - "He's such a fascinating character!" - uhm, what?! Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I will not try to persuade anyone, as it's a matter of personal taste anyway, but... I don't get it? We learn literally nothing about him. We know he's some guy wearing a mask calling himself Wormblood, but that's it. We don't know about his background, about how exactly he is related to Mannimarco (or maybe not at all), we don't really know his motivations,... I could understand people saying his armour looks cool or that they like the ending of Part 1, but considering Wormblood a "fascinating character"? Don't people need deeper info on someone (or any info really that goes beyond name and looks) to come to that judgement? I was really disappointed we didn't learn anything about him (and probably won't hear of him again in the future because the character seems to have fulfilled its purpose), so to me, he feels like just some characterless placeholder, which is certainly not fascinating of awesome. Or did I miss some lore?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Now I want to see the full list. How many Dunmer is "a lot"? An entire Great House's worth?

A whole House? Nah, corrupting people is my pastime, not my main profession! Also it wouldn't be fun anymore if it became routine.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It'd be too bad if they got watered down, especially now with them just getting their footing back. At one point during the quests with her (can't remember which one) Naryu says something like hoping my name never ends up on a writ. To me that showed that while she did like me well enough, sentiment wasn't going to stop her doing her job if she got a writ to take me out. I liked that representation of it: it's a job, the writs are sanctioned, personal loyalties don't come into it.

And still some people see her as a romance candidate.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The idea of him as presented initially is interesting enough: this person tasked to take up where Mannimarco left off in the event that Mannimarco should fail/fall, lying low and gathering resources until the perfect time to strike; someone well-trained in the necromantic arts and who wields considerable power of his own. But we didn't really see much of that represented in game. So maybe people filled in the blanks in their minds? The human brain is very good at making connections and finding patterns, so with the outline we were given of this character, it's possible people saw more in him than what was actually there.

Who knows. It was a good starting point for a story, just that... well, no story followed. I don't want to make any final judgements yet since we don't know whether we'll learn more about him in Part 2 somehow, and be it through diaries or something like that; but if we'll never hear of him again... Another missed opportunity, really.

Of course it made me wonder whether what we saw might just be sufficient for some people? Whether to them it's enough if the "baddie" looks evil and laughs evilly a bit and that's it, no deeper characterization needed? Which of course leads back to the main topic of the thread again: Does the average person already find a story awesome if there's some baddie to whack, and they don't want or need to know more? All I can say that I, personally, need more to truly enjoy a narration.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

You put a lot of time in on something that isn't your main profession.

It's not that much, especially compared to the amount of time I use for brushing my Bosmer's hair. Which is not my main profession either.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That begs the question, then: what do you consider your main profession?

Normal evil wizards things. You know: being evil, thinking evil things, laughing evilly, uhm, making evil plans, worshipping evil deities, and... Why do I have the feeling you won't believe me?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The 'meet the character' article they did on him certainly intrigued me and got me more interested in him than I thought would be possible. I was really hoping to find a well-written character in him. It really all depends on what part 2 brings in his case, but I think it shouldn't be left to that.

It's strange, isn't it? That they went into detail in that news article, including bringing up speculations about how he might be related to Mannimarco exactly, and then, in game, we get... nothing?! Makes me wonder why even bring up all these questions and then not answer them?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't know, this whole part 1, part 2 thing is kind of getting on my nerves a bit. Not sure how to explain it, but there's something narratively amiss with this separation.

I can't say I'm a fan of it either. And poor Vanny remains imprisoned for 5 months... Another five, after how many that he had already been held between the prologue and Part 1?

Honestly, I would have rather seen Part 1 and Part 2 being released as a complete story, even if that would have meant that there's no content addition in winter at all. Or just a small one. Bug fixes or so. But splitting one story in half like that... I wouldn't have done it.

Does the average person like such release schemes? Maybe we should be happy they're not adapting to the Tik Tok crowd and what seems to be the average attention span there - then every story would be just some 10 second snippet.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

And I don't like just being told a character is bad and so I should whack him or her; I need to know more about them for it to work for me.

A deeper characterization is always a risk you might not want to whack that character anymore in the end, though So that might be counterproductive, from some people's point of view.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, without knowing any time specifics, it's really hard to determine if it's actually "not that much." I mean, if you spend 10 hours a day brushing your Bosmer's hair, then I guess two hours devoted to corrupting people isn't that much. But since it seems like you spend far more time than that on your corruption hobby, it does make me wonder 1. how much time you spend on your Bosmer's hair, 2. why his hair needs so much attention

You clearly don't own a Bosmer, otherwise you wouldn't ask that question.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Now, what would ever give you that idea? Oh, and by the way, totally not related to anything you have or haven't said, or done, or thought: the Bosmer has been suspiciously silent for really a very long time. Still sticking to the "busy" story?

Yes.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

This where we run up against the Part 2 conundrum again. Eh, conundrum probably isn't the best word for it. But you see, I'm starting to hang a lot of hopes on part 2, and I don't know if it can support the weight of those hopes.

That's also one of the problems I see: The longer the wait, the higher expectations get, and at some point, it will most probably lead to disappointment. Same situation with TES6: People are expecting who knows what after all those years, and I think it's actually impossible to meet these expectations, no matter how good the game will be.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, Vanny being left to rot in a moldy prison cell is making me a bit anxious.

Who knows where he is right now...

Maybe locked up in some tower while Mannimarco prepares a twisted marriage ceremony. But honestly, I would actually appreciate some more creative story idea than just having him sit in a cell for half a year. Something unexpected. No matter what it is. Even if it's Mannimarco keeping him close by and trying to convince him to join him or whatever. Magically corrupted Vanny would also be amusing to see, even if he comes to reason again at the end of the story.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I do appreciate they are trying something different with this season, and the whole writhing wall incident, but sometimes it comes across as an arbitrary time gate to keep us from consuming the content as quickly as we normally do. That's a cynical view I don't really want to have, so again with the hope that it turns out better.

I would be fine with it if it would truly make a difference in the story - like if we see something unexpected in Part 2 (like what I mentioned in the spoiler), where the passing of time would be needed in the story to make the situation more plausible. Because sometimes situations need time to develop, people don't change in just a day, etc. If it has a narrative function, it would be appreciated. Unfortunately, I don't think this is what we'll see, but... I won't judge the story before it's finished.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I don't know if people like this kind of story split. It does take some getting used to. I probably wouldn't have fared well in the olden days when stories were routinely released in serial form in the papers. But yes, let's hope the story parts don't get ever smaller and given to us in little baby chunks.

Which leads to the question how much (changing) media habits might influence how stories are written and presented, not only in terms of length or whether to split them or not... We already talked about tropes and clichés in this thread, but it's more than that. When we talk about (cultural) habits in fiction, aspects of all kinds are influenced by that. Text length, how deep do the narrations or thoughts go (Or do they go deeper at all?), how important is "coolness" (Some might think "cool looks" is all that matters?), how nuanced are characters, are they all allowed to have a believable and morally grey background or is black/white thinking employed (especially for "evil" characters), what attention span can still be expected by the public without them getting bored (tendencially things are becoming increasingly fast-paced for a while now), etc.

I do also fully believe, from my own experience, that what we read/see/hear/consume influences, in one way or another, our own view and our expectations. Habits influence the standard, and it doesn't only influence how we judge things, but also what and how we write (well, if we do that). I'm not saying we just spew out a copy of the input we get as our output; certainly different tastes exist and people can imagine more than just what they got presented before - that's creativity - but still, the input we get has an influence on us, even if just subtly. I can certainly say that, when I still wrote regularly, people with a bit of a grasp of literature history would have clearly been able to see what might have influenced my way of thinking and my style (lots of late 18th century romanticist and classicist literature as well as original classical myths, with early 20th century symbolism mixed in), even if it was my own special take on it in the end.

So, yes, our input influences our output. Now if most people consume what's currently trending, let's say Hollywood movies full of quips, memes and those romantasy paperback novels, then of course this would most probably also show in their output. It's natural in a way. Whether I like it or not.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

What if they could write in different ways to achieve the same goal, depending on your character's views? The end result would have to stay the same, because MMO world, but the means to acquire that end could differ. Like...you could help the "bad" character stage their death and escape. They're still gone in the end, but if you ended up seeing their point of view to an extent, you wouldn't have to just murder them because some npc you knew for all of five minutes said so.

I'd truly enjoy that! But it would be a lot of work to write and voice act all that, and from the Greymoor chapter on, npcs wouldn't even acknowledge our character's race anymore (which had been a thing back in Morrowind and Summerset). Well, maybe the different dialogue options we get now are the first step into that direction.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, consistency is key when maintaining a good narrative!

Why do you worry so much about the Bosmer? Don't you believe he's in good hands?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's true, and people often, in absence of any concrete information, build up something in their minds so far from what it ever could have been that they are extra disappointed. When it comes to TES6, however, it's been so long in coming that it's gone past any expectations I might have once had, and now I have none. When I see it mentioned, I have a mild curiosity about it, but that's about it.

We're lucky it's "only" 4 months until Part 2 will be released (and it will probably be on PTS 2 months earlier?). Although I do fear already now that we've developed too many interesting ideas and what we'll get in the end will be much less complex than that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

But it has to be longer than, say, a week, since they aren't using portals. So during all that time, something should be happening with Vanny on the other side of the Writhing Wall.

Something must happen, the question is: What exactly?

I truly hope it will be interesting. Not that they tell us in the end that Mannimarco and Vanny never met because Mannimarco spent the whole time confusedly wandering Solstice. They already told us he's "disoriented", or what was it? Or Vanny escaped - just a few minutes before Mannimarco returned. While I should probably be happy for Vanny, I'd also find that horribly frustrating from a narrative perspective.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

The update 47 preview today ended with a brief discussion of the Writhing Wall event, and it sounded like it will be more involved than just fighting waves of daedra at those camps. They mentioned event quests and story quests, as well as repeatable quests, and something about daedra striking back in delves and public dungeons (which made me wonder if that's why the Solstice delves have so much open space). And then for people who don't have the content pass, there will be tasks to do on Stirk to aid the effort. It was light on detail, but at least it sounded more interesting than just "kill X mobs to advance hidden meter." And it'll have three stages, so maybe that will help convey the threat/obstacles better. How much difference that will make on the unfolding story I don't know, but the mention of quests that weren't just repeatable did interest me. Maybe we'll get something in those.

It seems to be more than expected. I think part of it will be on PTS next week? What a pity I don't have enough disk space right now.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

"The rule of cool," has been around for awhile

I guess the ending of Part 1 falls under that, and quite extremely even (I don't think there was something comparable in 10 years of ESO, not on that level). I can't say I like it, as if it gets too unlogical, it breaks immersion for me. Suspension of disbelief has its limits.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

as well as quippy characters who always have the perfect one-liner for situations.

Most of the time I don't even find them funny.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

These aren't bad in and of themselves, really, but of course they get overused or over represented.

That's the problem: It feels limited compared to what would be possible. It's also a bit of a strange decision, from my point of view, as this game caters to a lot of different people from different age groups and cultures, so having more variety would certainly appeal to more people.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

What was that flavor text on the Great Mage's costume? Look like Vanus Galerion without all that tedious studying (or something similar). That shows a certain mindset--looks are important, substance not so much. And, yeah, I like playing dress-up with my characters--it's fun--but it's not the only thing to them.

I found that truly strange, to be honest. Are there many people who think learning is a boring and annoying thing, but still want to play a scholar of all things? I mean, in the end it's a robe and everyone could wear it, of course. Not sure why they had to include this "studying is annoying" text at all? Are they thinking that's the mindset of their target group, or whom should that appeal to?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, any content creation is going to run up against budget and time constraints; I understand the developers aren't always able to do all they'd like to. I really do like the new dialogue options as an added system; I think it has the potential to make questing much more interesting and enable more role play for our characters. I hope they keep using it and refining on it, and adding more touches like that.

I'd especially hope to see it in more serious and meaningful situations, not only when it hardly matters and the only thing it does it adding some random joke.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I can't help but worry; Bosmer men are cute and I want them to be safe. It's bad enough the first Silvenar died on my watch; then the second Silvenar almost got sidelined. Honestly, sometimes I think we need a protective fence around the Valenwood.
But as for the quality level of the hands he's in (yours?), I'm sure you wouldn't hurt him. Yet the company you keep...what if one of your prisoners gets loose? Or Magister Gothren decides to surprise you with some horrific birthday present creature? I'm pretty sure peril of all kind follows you around. Actually, I know it does; I've seen the reports.

Don't worry, I'm sure he's able to defend himself. He's a fierce little creature. He likes to act all weak and helpless, but I'm sure he's only pretending because he enjoys my attention (And why would I deny him this if it makes him happy?).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, but that's been happening for awhile now, so I'm used to it. There are a few questions I want answered and I will be pretty disappointed if they aren't touched on, but as for complexity...well, I'll be happy if people remember I'm actually in the Stirk Fellowship. (No, the bar's not really that low.)

I mean, I tend to theorize before content releases and I can remember how disappointed I was when I found out that, no, in Greymoor we can't chooses sides, and no, in Gold Road we don't actually get a glimpse at different Tamrielic cultures in different dimensions, giving us an idea about how they might have developed if crucial events hadn't happened (or had happened differently) in their history. But I don't think I ever before theorized as much as this time.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, you brought up a possibility I hadn't considered, and now I'm worried it'll happen!

The part about Vanny escaping right before Mannimarco's return would be right up their alley, because maybe they think it wouldn't make sense for newly revived Mannimarco to do anything but just kill Vanny on sight.

But would that make sense...

...considering his obsession? I never ever got the impression in TES that Mannimarco actually wants Vanny dead. He wants to own him, in a way, but he doesn't have to be dead for that. Maybe Mannimarco would even prefer him alive, but, well, he did die in that final battle we read about in that one lorebook, so he had to make the best of it? We can't even be sure whether he tried to restore him to something more than a rotting thrall at some point later in history (actually we know nothing about his state after that battle, except for one statement by Mannimarco himself, but that's hardly reliable).

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also keeps them from having to explain why this particular incident never made it into any of the lore books of the previous games.

I don't think that's a real problem, as...

there aren't historical records of everything that happened, some things are forgotten over time, or even deliberately omitted. If there would be, for example, some event magically (or otherwise) corrupting Vanny (temporarily), the Mages Guild would probably have a big interest in keeping that a secret. Or if we somehow came to a truce with Mannimarco (based on, let's say, an even bigger threat we might need to face together - would be an interesting story!), and it would turn out later that he was fooling us, then the Guild would probably not want to have any records existing of that as well.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Did they say that Mannimarco is disoriented? I thought that's what they said about Ithelia when she came back. I thought the gist of it was that we interrupted Mannimarco's power-up ritual, so he's retreated to gain strength and plot revenge. Or maybe I made that up.

I need to check that...

okay, it's just an assumption made by Razum-dar (who sounds much less annoying in English, to be honest; yes, I looked for a video to get the dialogue, as it's not on UESP yet):

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Also, I just recalled that Vanny has some sort of ally over there, so perhaps he will effect his own escape. But really, he should just stay put, because rescuing the Great Mage is kinda my thing, and he shouldn't be muscling in on my territory.

Indeed. Also, I want him to owe me a favor in the end so I can ask him stupid questions

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I never go on the PTS, though, because I don't want spoilers.

I had been on PTS a few times. I think it was for Blackwood, High Isle, Necrom and Gold Road. I usually don't even quest much there, never the main quest, only side quests if at all, and other than that I explore the landscape, trying to get myself hyped at least a little... Sometimes it even worked

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Was it cool? Or meant to be? I suppose so. I was too focused on the, "Wait, what?" moments and the, "How would that even work?" instances to be appropriately appreciative of the cool. A lot did happen in a short amount of time, that's for sure.

That's the problem. Some aspects raised big quesstions immediately because the situation seemed rather, well, nonsensical, and then, it's not exactly "cool" anymore, but just weird.

I also wrote it in the other thread: Explosions and flashy special effects aren't everything. Actual meaning is just as, if not even more, important. And instead of relying on explosions and effects, I'd rather see a calm, in-depth dialogue that contributes to lore and worldbuilding from time to time, like the ending dialogue we got with Sotha Sil at the end of CWC, which I know many people loved. This is what makes TES unique - the world where these stories take place, its mythology and its cultures. If I want to just see some random colorful effects, I could play almost any other game, I wouldn't need a TES game for that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In the July crown store showcase, there's a new pet featured, the Destruction Dale Fawn, and the text for it reads: Though alarming at first glance, this fawn is perfectly content with its strangely blazing body. Those who can tame this extreme example of mystical adaptation will find its back an excellent medium for cooking over an open flame. I wondered: would we really be able to use this pet as a cooking fire in game? Or is that just some funny text for a bizarre pet?

I didn't think much about that; most of all it reminded me of a joke the Bosmer made here at the forums about using that flaming lizard camel thing as a portable cooking device. Must have been last summer or so. Yes, I remember the weirdest conversations.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I hope it becomes a robust enough system to support plenty of situations and responses. They did already try it in a serious situation in the prologue, only it came across a bit oddly to me: when we were talking to Azah and he was grieving. Oh, and also when Vanny showed up and we could insult him. So while the replies we could make didn't quite work for me, and the responses of the npcs didn't seem to connect well with what we said, at least it wasn't all about jokes or flirting. And, yeah, it didn't seem to have any meaningful impact no matter what. It doesn't do much good to give us special responses if the conversation goes the same way no matter what we said.
Basically, I hope they really invest it in it and make it better, more prevalent, and more meaningful. That's not asking for too much, is it?

What bothers me (and yes, I'm bringing up another topic from the other thread again) is that it's very much predefined how we are supposed to feel about characters. Yes, we might get the choice between "being friendly" and "being very friendly" or "funny" towards a character - but we can't be unfriendly towards Razum-dar, for example, so what big difference does it make whether we're just friendly or reply a bit more jokingly? On the other hand, we can brashly insult Vanny, but there's no way to be more than just polite towards him. It's an rpg and I'd like to freely decide how my character's stance is towards an npc. Why can't I be friendly towards Vanny and be respectless towards Razum-dar? If there's a friendlier-than-average option, I'd also want to have the choice for a contrary negative option in the same part of the dialogue.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I guess I was thinking of his parting words to us, how he will make everyone who ever crossed him pay.

He was just being dramatic again. I honestly think that most of the things he says have the intention to influence or manipulate whom ever he's talking with. Or maybe I'm just assuming that because he's supposed to be highly intelligent and have rhetorical talent, and because him just bluntly yelling what ever he's feeling in that moment seems too... mundane? Unrefined?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

not everything makes it into lore books, but a reverse planemeld? There are so many people involved in this thing, could the Mages Guild realistically keep it under wraps?

I mean, we already have that problem now - that thing has, according to lore, already happened. I don't think it it makes a difference anymore how many horrifying details that topic would encompass. On the other hand, we already had so many different world-threatening events in ESO now that have left no traces in lorebooks (unless they'd add lorebooks about these things in TES6)... One more or less... Does it matter?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Primarily I'm just worried we won't get any good Vanny material, and so that's making me see problems that probably aren't there.

I guess we'll never see a characterization of any character again that would be comparable in scope to what we learned about Sil in CWC. It's a pity, since with that big "heritage" theme going on on Solstice, it would have been the perfect time to do such a thing about Mannimarco, which might, of course, also include a good amount of Artaeum and Vanny lore.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

disoriented and not at full power (presumably). Good luck for him that we can't attack immediately, isn't it?

It's so convenient that, if I was a sceptical person, I would wonder whether someone might be betraying us and sabotaging our efforts

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

No, no! Very Important Questions!

I want to know more details about Vanny's kidnapping hobby.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I agree. The way the finale of part 1 was constructed was meant to give us a sense of urgency and impending doom, so I understand not having in-depth conversations then. But afterwards? We've got nothing but time to talk it all through, yet everyone was fairly thin on conversation.

And most of it was even rather repetative. That has also increased since the prologue, right? That different npcs (usually from the Fellowship) just tell us the same thing instead of offering us slightly different perspectives at least?

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Lol, well maybe his joke inspired the flavor text for the flaming fawn.

That would be positive as it would be a sign that our posts are read and considered - even the silly ones, so we'd have good chances to see some of our suggestions from this thread and the other one being implemented, I guess

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Mostly I was wondering if they would actually make a pet interactable. Probably not.

Would be nice, although I'd rather think about petting a dog than using a flaming deer to roast sausages. Even if the Bosmer would certainly enjoy that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ideally it would give us a good range of options to choose from, so we could decide how our character feels about the npcs. I think it would be interesting to develop a non-friendly branch in the conversation tree, where the player could be borderline or even outright rude to the npc and the npc would react accordingly. It would be interesting, too, if the npc could say (if you were rude/mean enough) something like, "Forget it; you're not worth my time." Or, if it's a situation where you have to still work together (like you and Raz in the Fellowship quests), you or he could have a line about asking to be assigned a different partner, and then be able to change who you're working with.

But whom?! They were all horrible

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Too bad we can't just merge the two threads and have one mega-thread about all these things we've been discussing. Imagine what a mess that merged thread would be, though!

It would endanger people's sanity even more than this thread alone.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Or maybe he just knew what was expected of him as the Big Bad Villain. He was larping.

Reputation is very important when leading a sinister cult!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

It's possible that, having just been pulled from whatever he was enduring in Coldharbour and then plunging himself into the nearest convenient vessel, he was a bit off his game, and so shouted out the first thing that came to his mind.

Maybe he was just bathing in one of these nice blue-glowing ponds made of Azure Plasm, so he was angry about the disturbance. Do spirits bathe? I certainly would! And I would be very angry about such a disturbance. I've made death threats for less than that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

He probably regretted it once he was resting in his quarters back on eastern Solstice.

What can we expect? Some huge Disney-style castle? All dark and eerie, of course. (Yes, I've still got that strange idea of him as a dramatic necromancer Princess in the back of my head.) And Vanny is locked up in a tower like Rapunzel. (No, I'm not lacking seriousness today! )

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Probably had a few, "What I should have said was" moments. If we're lucky, he even wrote them down in his new journal, along with reflections on inhabiting someone else's body.

He's lucky it's an Altmer, at least. Imagine it had been a Sload. Or even worse: Some lice-infested Breton from the Wayrest sewers!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Not just the Solstice heritage theme, but the hint they dropped that Wormblood could be related to Mannimarco. Why, oh why, didn't we find out anything at all about that? Yet with both Vanny and Mannimarco having roles in the story, we got nothing on either of them. I really enjoyed the Clan Corelanya history books, but as always, I want more lore.

The problem might truly be that Mannimarco is labelled a "villain" in this narration and that label/category seems to make it impossible to give him a deeper characterization - be it because there might be "moral" qualms about depicting him as more than just an insane monster, or because it breaks, well, media habits, I guess? At least it's hard for me to imagine a whole story about the past of an antagonist as the central part of a narration (at least in Western media). Honestly, I would have truly enjoyed it if Solstice basically had become for Mannimarco (and his family) what the CWC dlc was for Sil as a character. But would have many people liked that? I don't know.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Good thing you're not that person then! We already took care of the known saboteur. Who else could be secretly working for the Worm Cult? Other than you, I mean. Wait, I said that out loud, didn't I?

I might be or I might not; maybe I just enjoy scaring that annoying prince by sending him strange letters

Wouldn't that be a plot twist if the majority of the Stirk Fellowship intended to betray the prince? But no, of course it's only one random person we've never heard anything about before.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That's important!

But probably not very safe either.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Seems so to me. Also, if I have an npc accompany me on a quest, I like to talk to them on intermediate stages, get their opinions on what we've uncovered so far, or what have you. Used to be, they had different things to say. These days, that seems to be the exception. It still happens sometimes, like in Corelanya Manor, but on the main quest it was mostly absent.

The only thing the prince seemed to be babbling about was the fleet with troops that might arrive in a few months. Because portals are too dangerous.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Haha, I'd love to see some flavor text on a memento that allows you to arrange a kidnapping of yourself. "When you need a break from saving the world, indulge in the Great Mage's hobby and get yourself kidnapped!"

I want Vanny as a house guest, so I can put him into some nice cell. He'd be so happy!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, this is something else! Never thought you would be in favor of protecting people's sanity.

If they're too insane, they can't be corrupted anymore.