The writing for the upcoming story content - some thoughts on the latest news article

metheglyn · June 20

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Some last-minute rewrites or restaging of parts of the main quest certainly could account for some of the awkward moments.

I think one problem might indeed be the notion that things have to be flashy, spectacular and absolutely extraordinary to be seen as successful or as even just worthy of attention. So of course...
a mine isn't spectacular enough, no, it must be a daedric realm. And of course, the Worm Cult must be back under the leadership of a powerful necromancer and/or lich (that for some reasons no one has ever heard anything about before) because just a young Altmer getting fascinated by some family secret too much and doing dangerous things he should not isn't quite as grandiose.

But who knows, maybe something like that had even been the original first concept in writing? Maybe something linked to Corelanya Manor? There must be some reason this all is taking place on Solstice, so who knows. All we know is that this is not what we saw finally - something more effectful, but sadly shallower in terms of narration. With no infos about Wormblood at all, and all those plausibility mistakes we saw.

Whether we'll see more personal background lore on Wormblood or Mannimarco in Part 2? I hope so, but somehow I fear that most of that side of the island will just be Coldharbour, and as for the remaining locations that had been there before the miniature Planemeld, most is probably Argonian? So I don't expect anything Altmer on that side of the fence somehow, which isn't the best basis if they'd want to do Mannimarco family lore. Maybe we'll learn a bit through diaries, if we're lucky.
The sad thing is, I don't think it's true - it's not necessary to have sensational effects and huge armies of enemies to tell a good story; and the other way round, just big effects don't make a story interesting. Look at Lovecraft's stories, they focus so much on individuals who learn horrible things, from a very personal perspective. There are also narrations where dark family secrets play a huge role. There's nothing bombastic about them, quite the opposite. But they are successful, many people from all over the world love them. So in a way I do think that a story such as the one I outlined above could have worked well. The Corelanya Manor quest also got mostly positive critique from what I saw on this forum. And if we want to focus on TES, I think part of the success of TES3's main story was that you weren't just some great hero, but there were very personal aspects to it through background lore.

The Corelanya Manor quest was so well done, and when I saw there was a crypt that wasn't linked to the quest, I thought,

ah, we'll go in there for the main quest and discover Mannimarco's connection to Clan Corelanya! I even went in there prior to the point where the main quests sends you in (another door not blocked from the inquisitive) and saw the note the cultist handily left for me to read, and really, really thought: ok, there is a connection! And then, of course, we got what we got, and I saw it as a wasted opportunity.

I agree that there won't be a whole lot more Altmer stuff on the other side of the island. The Stone-Nest tribe is over there (I believe that's the name--the ones who kept up with Xanmeer living) and Mor Naril must be there. So maybe in Mor Naril we'll find out more, either through left-behind journals or misplaced orders or ghosts or flashbacks. Hmm...is it Mor Naril or Nor Maril? I can't recall, and I'm not in game to check the texts that reference it.

I also don't think we need flashy and spectacular to have a compelling and intriguing story. The stories that work best to me, or hit hardest with me, are the ones that touch on the essence of being a person. The companions' stories are popular, and they're as far from flash and spectacle as you can get. They speak to a lived experience, and people grappling with personal torments, and that makes those characters interesting, whether you like them or not.

Syldras · June 20

metheglyn wrote: »

The Corelanya Manor quest was so well done, and when I saw there was a crypt that wasn't linked to the quest, I thought,

Indeed, a missed opportunity. And I also fully believed that...

we'd find Mannimarco's resting place there. Indicated by a plaque, or disorder that suggests that something was moved or removed from that place, or actually, a sarcophagus broken open. I actually think that would have been the better solution: To have that open sarcophagus, the lid moved aside or removed and leaned against a wall next to it - the relief on the lid would have been clear enough about who had been buried there. And if the cultists (or great-nephew Wormblood) had just stolen the corpse, let's say wrapped in a pall, that would have also been easier to transport. Not as imposing as the whole sarcophagus of course, but more realistic than moving that whole heavy and bulky thing.

Or if not just the corpse, then at least a smaller and lighter inner coffin. All decorative coffins intended to be permanently placed above ground (well, or inside a crypt, but not buried directly, at least) have at least 1, sometimes even several, inner coffins made of a different material - for hygienic and olfactory reasons alone. Usually the outer coffin is made of wood or some type of stone, the inner ones are usually made from metal (often zinc) and permanently sealed. I know, I've seen them often enough, as usually the wooden outer coffins deteriorate over decades and centuries, so without restoration, after a while you'll clearly see the inner ones.

Concerning Mor Naril, I'm not sure right now whether any lorebook gives the translation for the name? In any way, "mor" means "dark" (we also have that in other Ayleid ruins: Moranda, Moriseli, Morimath, etc), and "naril" means "final" (as in Naril Nagaia or Ceynaril).

metheglyn wrote: »

I also don't think we need flashy and spectacular to have a compelling and intriguing story. The stories that work best to me, or hit hardest with me, are the ones that touch on the essence of being a person. The companions' stories are popular, and they're as far from flash and spectacle as you can get. They speak to a lived experience, and people grappling with personal torments, and that makes those characters interesting, whether you like them or not.

Indeed. In the end, what makes a story most effective, is inciting the viewer's/player's/reader's emotions. And while flashy effects might be "cool" for a few minutes, it hardly has a lasting effect, from my point of view. It's easier "understood", I guess, harder to miss, and it doesn't involve a lot of thinking - so who knows, maybe some people think that's what makes it more suitable for a game aimed at the mass market? I don't know. I definitely prefer emotionally more impactful stories, even if they're calmer, over every loud and flashy spectacle that's mostly superficial and doesn't have much to it beyond the flashiness.

colossalvoids · June 20

Syldras wrote: »

colossalvoids wrote: »

A bit of a side note, or an observation of recent. Just noticed how all the people I know who are really into TES aren't anymore interested in zenimax stories for awhile now, but interestingly ones who are into it are just regular fiction fans or people who played Skyrim a bit, like this relaxing fantasy novels (yes, I also never heard of them previously, apparently it's a genre goldmine nowadays) or are just tired of complexity overall, be it life or entertainment. Probably the devs do actively aware of this and are aiming at the population.

Really? I think I never saw anyone lauding ESO's writing for a few years now, to be honest. People emphasizing that the stories and quests should be thought of as the strong and unique point for ESO, since TES lore has lots of fans and it's generally a strong franchise - yes, of course; but usually it's connected with an appeal to focus on good writing because of that, to show more care to it. Most people I know see the years between Morrowind and Summerset as peak quality in terms of writing, some also enjoyed Greymoor, but there seems to be a general consensus that the writing declined from that point on, with High Isle being... well. But are there really so many players who like the more recent stories? Maybe I should check social media more often.

It's a little strange, by the way; I just realized lately that Summerset is 7 years ago now. I'm also one of the people who found the writing of those times to have been the peak - but even though everything that came after that was not as good, I'm still here... and still hoping that the writing would improve again. I guess I'm horribly optimistic

Honestly don't recommend checking out socials for that, it's more demotivating than I thought it would be. Couple social guilds and... a "research" of some short form text based platform that the company seems to take very seriously was it for me. And I do see the same mostly because forums and TES places I'm mostly in are quite lore heavy and people do prefer their writing there to be good. It's even funny now when I look back thinking Elsweyr was bad and Murkmire being the last decent and fitting zone, but now it's all great comparatively to the new stuff that was released past few years. And the posts dissecting the new chapter aren't promising to say the least.

Makes me think if they want to "transcend" tes into more generic fantasy for the broader appeal as I'm personally not getting the feeling being in Tamriel for awhile now, zones are set in the universe, sure, but they don't look distinct enough, characters talk certainly not comes from the same universe a lot of the times and overall tone is off personally. Some zones now are completely lack the feeling and that's concerning. Yes, feelings aren't the most precise metrics to go with but that's quite an easier way than going about how Ayleid ruins of base game had sense to their design and now we're faced with a lifeless mazes that server no purpose to be actually ever populated, how characters don't take their world seriously and how we can relate to that after such encounters, how Skingrad's count is forever engraved in by brain with this bear pet of his... It should've been a comedic relief (like every other quest it seems?) but it's more of a haunted lucid dream of a lore nerd on a bad night. Not sure if that's even funny but the only game I compare ESO to nowadays is Sims mostly. Meaning all new animations, the tone, the trailers. It's like there's some team's crossover, same as it was with Dragon Age of recent when it was actually a person from The Sims crew in charge of a visceral fantasy franchise, apparently. If I recall the case correctly.

Sadly can't say I'm overly optimistic myself, just glad I found other things in this game that do still bring be enough joy and cooperation to not abandon it all together. But the last chapter I also had hopes still, maybe it's the "return to form" cause this and that, all the legacy of the zone but times and times again the answer is still the same.

Syldras · June 20

colossalvoids wrote: »

Makes me think if they want to "transcend" tes into more generic fantasy for the broader appeal

I'm wondering if that's a good idea. Aren't there masses of generic fantasy games? Why should people choose TES then? Or they might do, but then just move on after a short time, because if it's generic it's as good as any other game, so there's nothing that keeps them here long-term? I still think that the strong point this franchise has (or had?) was always its unique lore. That's a strong basis to build upon. I wouldn't waste that.

colossalvoids wrote: »

characters talk certainly not comes from the same universe a lot of the times and overall tone is off personally. (...) how characters don't take their world seriously and how we can relate to that after such encounters, how Skingrad's count is forever engraved in by brain with this bear pet of his... It should've been a comedic relief (like every other quest it seems?) but it's more of a haunted lucid dream of a lore nerd on a bad night.

Yes. There's too much... how to put it? Like they're just putting today's real world's sentiments or ideas into the game without checking whether it's plausible for Tamriel and its inhabitants or not. Like all that "Protect the environment!" talk in the newest content, that just doesn't seem plausible for a medieval world, at least not in the way they it comes across (Plausible for a medieval world: "The water has to be kept clean; if our crops die, people will hunger."; Implausible for a medieval world: "Protect the environment, it's the correct moral thing to do!"). It always makes me wonder how this may happen. Aren't they aware that these things are too un-medieval to seem plausible for this fictional world and therefore break immersion? Or doesn't plausibility have a big priority in writing for them? Or might they think the audience wants just that and appreciates it if things aren't "too foreign" compared to the modern real world they know? (Which seems strange to me. If I wanted to see a copy of the current real world, I wouldn't choose a medieval fantasy game.)

Add to that strange/random jokes, situatively completely inappropriate flirting (especially strange in this chapter; we're supposed to be in a hurry, someone is in danger of getting murdered, the whole island is in danger actually, but hey, it's still time to take a little break for sleazy innuendo out of the blue...), or meme-y stuff. I don't say there's no time or place for humour in Tamriel (I found this chapter's bantam guar quest quite funny; a bit silly maybe, but it was amusing - and it was something seperate, not interfering with any other quest, and the characters involved weren't completely sane... it fit well), but putting it into situations that are supposed to feel dangerous or tragic feels to me like the whole story isn't taken seriously. If not even the characters seem to care for a horrible threat or that someone has died, why should I take it seriously then? What of that should motivate me to be the hero and risk my life for that? I really don't understand why they write it like that. The writers are professionals, they surely must be aware that one shouldn't break the atmosphere that's been slowly built up to feel urgent and dangerous with some random weird joke? I'd really be curious about how they would explain that, because it seems rather counterproductive to me. Sometimes I wonder if that's done deliberately because they might believe that the average player can't handle a dire situation in a story for longer than 2 minutes, so they must throw in some weird jokes every few dialogues to "brighten the mood" (which it doesn't, it's just annoying to get thrown out of immersion by weird jokes all the time)?

I think one strong point of the stories of the first years was that they were serious, there were tragic and sad situations (lots of them!), and the player was treated as an adult who can handle that - and not only handle it, but appreciate the stories for the emotions and thoughts they provoked, even if they were sad. I replayed base game quests some weeks ago and truly, they were emotionally much more impactful. A friend is currently also questing in older zones, and has absolutely the same impression. Yes, they are often sad stories - but they're meaningful and not just some superficial joke that's forgotten again in half a minute. Players still talk about Sotha Sil's dialogue or about Leythen's death today, and if I mention Shazah and Khali, they still know who they were. Or what happened to the Silvenar. Or the tragedy of the inhabitants of Bleakrock. Do they still remember quests from the last 3 or 4 years that well? I usually don't see them being mentioned (except for the pet bear, as a negative example).

I also have noticed that the stories of the earlier years often alluded to real world classical literature and myths. Stories known for centuries, sometimes even millennia. In another thread we just recently discussed whether Artaeum might be strongly modeled after Elysium, the island in Greek mythology. Or a general depiction of paradise. We found clear hints that the writers took John Milton's "Paradise Lost" from 1667 as an inspiration for some aspects. We know that the story of Pelinal Whitestrake has aspects borrowed from the story of Achilles; and there are more things clearly inspired by ancient myths. And honestly, these stories work. They incite emotions. I'd rather see something like that than writing based on memes or the latest trends that no one will remember anymore in 3 years.

I want to see great tragedies not simple moral stories with a message at the end presented to me on a platter like I was a small child incapable of understanding it otherwise. Yes, we still have a few outstanding stories, like the latest one of Corelanya Manor; and Telvanni Peninsula had the Tel Dreloth quest, which was also beautiful. But they're rare now, not the norm, while it felt the other way round in ESO's early years. I still remember the murders in Russafeld. I still remember the old man in Balmora who raised his children alone - and the tragedy about how they felt neglected and hated him, because they didn't know why he couldn't be there for them as much as he had wished to. I still remember Ulthorn the Hound. I still remember the sad childhood of Aranias who left everything behind and became the Wilderqueen. Can't we just return to stories like these?

colossalvoids wrote: »

Sadly can't say I'm overly optimistic myself, just glad I found other things in this game that do still bring be enough joy and cooperation to not abandon it all together. But the last chapter I also had hopes still, maybe it's the "return to form" cause this and that, all the legacy of the zone but times and times again the answer is still the same.

This year I thought that continuing the base game main quest could mean returning to the old seriousness and style of how the quests were back then - at least somewhat. Just a turn back into the old direction. I don't want to judge the main quest yet, as it's split in half,... But sometimes I do wonder whether ESO has just become a kind of backdrop for me, to wander through Vvardenfell and make up my own stories. Which isn't bad in itself, but ESO could be so much more, so it's sad.

TheMajority · June 21

Syldras wrote: »

Yes. There's too much... how to put it? Like they're just putting today's real world's sentiments or ideas into the game without checking whether it's plausible for Tamriel and its inhabitants or not. Like all that "Protect the environment!" talk in the newest content, that just doesn't seem plausible for a medieval world, at least not in the way they it comes across (Plausible for a medieval world: "The water has to be kept clean; if our crops die, people will hunger."; Implausible for a medieval world: "Protect the environment, it's the correct moral thing to do!"). It always makes me wonder how this may happen. Aren't they aware that these things are too un-medieval to seem plausible for this fictional world and therefore break immersion? Or doesn't plausibility have a big priority in writing for them? Or might they think the audience wants just that and appreciates it if things aren't "too foreign" compared to the modern real world they know? (Which seems strange to me. If I wanted to see a copy of the current real world, I wouldn't choose a medieval fantasy game.)

I saw this in other mmo games too in these past years. A narrative about these specific things: Protect the environment, implication of climate change, and lecture on saving animals from it, even if it fit to the game or not. I found it annoying, like they are trying to fit to a narrative or standard that others also are compliant to, when fantasy is to break away from the real world, not lecture you on being a conscious citizen. I want to use words I probably should not speak on the forums and make comparisons I can't. But I will say, it's like being reminded to "be good" by authorities.

Oh, also, from the myths side of things. I can't help it, some of the older stories reminded me of Journey to the West, which is the famous story of Sun Wukong, which I grew up on.

Finedaible · June 22

Syldras wrote: »

[...]
I think one strong point of the stories of the first years was that they were serious, there were tragic and sad situations (lots of them!), and the player was treated as an adult who can handle that - and not only handle it, but appreciate the stories for the emotions and thoughts they provoked, even if they were sad. I replayed base game quests some weeks ago and truly, they were emotionally much more impactful. A friend is currently also questing in older zones, and has absolutely the same impression. Yes, they are often sad stories - but they're meaningful and not just some superficial joke that's forgotten again in half a minute. Players still talk about Sotha Sil's dialogue or about Leythen's death today, and if I mention Shazah and Khali, they still know who they were. Or what happened to the Silvenar. Or the tragedy of the inhabitants of Bleakrock. Do they still remember quests from the last 3 or 4 years that well? I usually don't see them being mentioned (except for the pet bear, as a negative example).

I also have noticed that the stories of the earlier years often alluded to real world classical literature and myths. Stories known for centuries, sometimes even millennia. In another thread we just recently discussed whether Artaeum might be strongly modeled after Elysium, the island in Greek mythology. Or a general depiction of paradise. We found clear hints that the writers took John Milton's "Paradise Lost" from 1667 as an inspiration for some aspects. We know that the story of Pelinal Whitestrake has aspects borrowed from the story of Achilles; and there are more things clearly inspired by ancient myths. And honestly, these stories work. They incite emotions. I'd rather see something like that than writing based on memes or the latest trends that no one will remember anymore in 3 years.
[...]

I never forgot Little-Leaf or Sir Hughes either. Even some very minor side-quest characters like Mazrahil the Scarab in the Bangkorai zone was pretty memorable for his down-to-earth personality and realistic dialogue.

On the opposite spectrum though, even the romantic stories in older content were far, FAR more mature and memorable. The quest to reunite Velsa with her long-lost love was my absolute favorite romance story in the game.

Syldras · June 23

TheMajority wrote: »

I saw this in other mmo games too in these past years. A narrative about these specific things: Protect the environment, implication of climate change, and lecture on saving animals from it, even if it fit to the game or not. I found it annoying, like they are trying to fit to a narrative or standard that others also are compliant to, when fantasy is to break away from the real world, not lecture you on being a conscious citizen.

Yes. Even if I think some topics are important in real life, I don't want to be lectured about them in a completely unrelated game. If I'm in Tamriel, I want to explore a different world, I want to come across great stories and adventures.

It's especially bad when the real life lessons don't even fit the world of TES. Like that environmental protection topic in the new content - how does that fit a remote island with only a few inhabitants in a medieval time, with no plastic, no factories and no cars? One thing that drastically changed landscapes during the Middle Ages in the real world was extensive wood harvesting, mostly for shipbuilding. But that doesn't seem to be a topic on Solstice at all. And even if it was, it would be nothing to lecture the random person about. (And also, people back then weren't aware that it was a problem for a long time, because they had many other worries, so they didn't think about such things. That's also something I often notice in ESO's storytelling: That many characters have a very "modern" mindset and are thinking about issues that a person in the Middle Ages would have not been critical about. Of course it's fantasy fiction and I don't expect it to be 100% historically correct, but if it's too far off from what would be expected, then it causes an immersion problem.)

That's the main problem for me: If it feels like it doesn't fit the portrayed world, it's immersion-breaking. That's what makes it feel like a lecture in the first place. I'd have less of a problem with universal truths, that may subtly be a topic within a quest or questline. Like general things about human nature for example, that are true today, but were also true 500 or 1000 years ago. And of course they shouldn't be presented as a "Today I learned a lesson..." dialogue. That also feels unfitting somehow, for stories intended for adults.

Finedaible wrote: »

On the opposite spectrum though, even the romantic stories in older content were far, FAR more mature and memorable. The quest to reunite Velsa with her long-lost love was my absolute favorite romance story in the game.

I'm by far no expert on romance fiction, but what I can surely say is that, yes, the older stories feel more meaningful and mature, and most of all, there were actual emotions. And then, in some year, these stories were somehow dismissed for weird superficial stories where the "love" aspect was usually some woman swooning over some "handsome" (and possibly topless and buff) guy, and where everything seemed completely random. Like "Oh, he's handsome, I love him!" without any deeper context or meaning. Wasn't that especially strange in Blackwood, or where was it? Add to that the very clichéd flirting that's always brash and filled with innuendo and leaves no space for anything more subtle... It doesn't feel like these narrations were taken seriously anymore, either.

metheglyn · June 23

Syldras wrote: »

I'm by far no expert on romance fiction, but what I can surely say is that, yes, the older stories feel more meaningful and mature, and most of all, there were actual emotions. And then, in some year, these stories were somehow dismissed for weird superficial stories where the "love" aspect was usually some woman swooning over some "handsome" (and possibly topless and buff) guy, and where everything seemed completely random. Like "Oh, he's handsome, I love him!" without any deeper context or meaning. Wasn't that especially strange in Blackwood, or where was it? Add to that the very clichéd flirting that's always brash and filled with innuendo and leaves no space for anything more subtle... It doesn't feel like these narrations were taken seriously anymore, either.

I agree that the tendency towards displaying romance in the world has gone towards the more brash, hit you over the head with innuendo route. That does have its place with certain characters and settings, but it shouldn't be the only way romance is showcased. On Stros Makai, where we first meet Jakarn, he ends up with several people swooning over him, but it works in that situation because of how he's portrayed then. And while Raz might have had a general suggestion of flirtation in his character, it was never up front and in your face. You just got the idea that he could be very charming and he would use those charms however he needed to succeed in whatever mission he currently had as foremost Eye of the Queen.

And then, as you moved through the world, you came across people who were in romantic relationships, but that was just part of their lives, nothing particularly notable or special. It wasn't like, "Look, we have a romantic couple here!" There's a small quest in Greenshade where an older couple has journeyed back to the place they fell in love to see the flowers that were a big part of their initial relationship, and it's a very moving/emotional quest that is romantic and subtle. Players can relate to it and it fits with the world. Would we ever get a quest like that again? Romance is so much more than just flirting and sex, but lately it seems all we get is the wild flirting aspect of it presented to us.

spartaxoxo · June 23

Wood Elves have always been caretakers to the green and environmentalists have been a fantasy staple for ages?

Syldras · June 23

metheglyn wrote: »

On Stros Makai, where we first meet Jakarn, he ends up with several people swooning over him, but it works in that situation because of how he's portrayed then.

The big difference to later is that, at that point, Jakarn was clearly a rogue/thief type using his charme to deceive people, sweet-talking his way to the riches he was actually after. And he did succeed. There was something I actually found amusing about that.

While when he returned in High Isle, he seemed like a sleazy idiot actually trying to hit on us, while having no clue about how to actually be charming, and most of all being completely clueless about when to stop because his target is obviously not reacting positively to the attempts at all.

metheglyn wrote: »

There's a small quest in Greenshade where an older couple has journeyed back to the place they fell in love to see the flowers that were a big part of their initial relationship, and it's a very moving/emotional quest that is romantic and subtle. Players can relate to it and it fits with the world. Would we ever get a quest like that again? Romance is so much more than just flirting and sex, but lately it seems all we get is the wild flirting aspect of it presented to us.

Exactly. It's like they're only going for the most crass and most obvious now. That's a general thing I've noticed in writing within the last few years: There's no subtlety anymore. Flirting is brash, jokes are crass, characters often seem like over the top stereotypes, moral lessons are bluntly presented as such. I'm wondering: Why? Is there really an assumption that people want that or can't understand a story otherwise?

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Wood Elves have always been caretakers to the green and environmentalists have been a fantasy staple for ages?

But still I never had any Bosmer in this game bluntly informing me about how important it is to protect the environment (just because it's the right thing to do) as I've experienced it with the Altmer of Solstice now. And that makes one think, no?

spartaxoxo · June 23

Syldras wrote: »

But still I never had any Bosmer in this game bluntly informing me about how important it is to protect the environment (just because it's the right thing to do) as I've experienced it with the Altmer of Solstice now. And that makes one think, no?

Not really. It's a common enough theme in fantasy that entire races are dedicated to it. I get the real world relevancy. But elves that like nature and think we're supposed to take care of it wouldn't make me blink. It's a huge cliche.

Syldras · June 23

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Not really. It's a common enough theme in fantasy that entire races are dedicated to it. I get the real world relevancy. But elves that like nature and think we're supposed to take care of it wouldn't make me blink. It's a huge cliche.

It's not about the topic itself, it's about how it's presented in narrations. Bosmer talking about how they honor Y'ffre and how the forest is sacred to them is absolutely fine. The point it becomes immersion-breaking is when it's blunt messages directly and contextlessly directed at the player. Moments when you clearly feel "This is not a dialogue from an in-world fictional perspective, but the character is just the writer's mouthpiece for some issue they want to communicate". In the end it comes down to the lack of subtlety I mentioned.

Heren · June 23

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Wood Elves have always been caretakers to the green and environmentalists have been a fantasy staple for ages?

Yeah, and it was often a bit weird, more like some kind of over-protection of life without aknowledgement that life, well, need fuel - other living being ( speaking more broadly about your typical environmentalism in fantasy ). Just take a quick look at Magic the Gathering for example : you have on one side Green Mana, tied with Forest imagery and Life, opposing Black Mana, tied with Swamp imagery and death. But in reality, swamps, decaying woods, are full of life and support so much life - a 'healthy' forest also do, of course, but in the end trees will decay, and this will by no mean be the end of life, it will be the continuation of life. But when you think life, you think more easily about living woods, about green things, about mammals, rather than decaying woods, fungi, weird looking things, insects.

Might also be so because in a fantasy setting, you quicly stumble upon necromancy, which in a way use death to create simili-life. And often, when there is some bridges between death and life, it's often treated as something borderline, something - ironicaly - not entirely natural.

For ESO more specificaly, while I kinda like Wood Elves, well, how to put it... it's absurd. The whole 'Protect the Green' is just weird, and really don't look like a working relationship - to the point where you have a NPC in early Reaper's March saying that, yes, the Green Pact is nice and all - but they're not gonna abide to it entirely. And how the Pact really word, how it is really enforced, all of that - maybe it's because it's been a long time since I've done the quests, but it's a bit muddy. Not talking about the fact that apparently if you have other people doing the job, it's fine ( kinda, just don't touch the sacred flower ), if you're outside of Valenwood, it's fine, and I guess the list could go on.

So while yes environmentalism have been a fantasy staple for ages, I would argue it was mostly feelings-drived environmentalism rather than a scientific-drived one - like, green things are nice, let's preserve green things. I'm not saying that feelings-drived environmentalism is necessarily bad, or irrelevant, but it was a more simple and idealistic view of things, where the complexity of an ecological system and the various threats upon it were maybe not fully understood.

In the Lord of the Rings, there are some dead areas, were little to no life grows - that is a simple view of environmentalism, a rather binary one : either life, or death. But environmentalism is not binary, the threat is not really death, it's much, much more complicated than that. And it's much, much more complicated, and maybe fitting, to develop in ESO.

So maybe, indeed, it would be better to get back to these old environmentalism views and stances in videogames, where you have to protect the green against corruption and death. In the end, these views still carry with them a sense of ecological duty, which can be developped outside of the games.

Anyway, I hope these argonians savages don't dump their trash everywhere - it might be their island, but it's our world !

metheglyn · June 23

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

There's a small quest in Greenshade where an older couple has journeyed back to the place they fell in love to see the flowers that were a big part of their initial relationship, and it's a very moving/emotional quest that is romantic and subtle. Players can relate to it and it fits with the world. Would we ever get a quest like that again? Romance is so much more than just flirting and sex, but lately it seems all we get is the wild flirting aspect of it presented to us.

Exactly. It's like they're only going for the most crass and most obvious now. That's a general thing I've noticed in writing within the last few years: There's no subtlety anymore. Flirting is brash, jokes are crass, characters often seem like over the top stereotypes, moral lessons are bluntly presented as such. I'm wondering: Why? Is there really an assumption that people want that or can't understand a story otherwise?

I've wondered why, too. I know that, in fiction writing, romantasy is currently a very popular sub-genre. Perhaps it's an acknowledgement of that? I mean, as far as they can. ESO writing will never be as explicit as romantasy writing gets, so the ESO version ends up being brash, untimely flirting. I have no idea if it's actually an influence, but I do find it interesting that the rise of romantasy sort of coincided with the rise of reckless flirting in game.

As to the topic of environmentalist Altmer, I was wondering if that portrayal of them might not have been a slight misstep when they were trying to show us that these Altmer are different from the usual type we encounter in Summerset and mainland Tamriel. Altmer traditionally have an appreciation for nature's beauty in a very structured manner: not the wild, unpredictable growth of the Valenwood, for example, but the tamed, tended flora we see in Altmer gardens and even, to some degree, in Summerset's landscape. Well, the Solstice Altmer have been apart from other Altmer for quite some time, and learning to share the island of Solstice with the native Argonians, so seemingly their views on nature would have changed over time, adjusted to be less like Summerset. Perhaps, in trying to convey that, the writing veered too far, or came across somewhat didactic.

Syldras · June 23

Heren wrote: »

For ESO more specificaly, while I kinda like Wood Elves, well, how to put it... it's absurd. The whole 'Protect the Green' is just weird, and really don't look like a working relationship - to the point where you have a NPC in early Reaper's March saying that, yes, the Green Pact is nice and all - but they're not gonna abide to it entirely. And how the Pact really word, how it is really enforced, all of that - maybe it's because it's been a long time since I've done the quests, but it's a bit muddy. Not talking about the fact that apparently if you have other people doing the job, it's fine ( kinda, just don't touch the sacred flower ), if you're outside of Valenwood, it's fine, and I guess the list could go on.

I wouldn't even say the Bosmer are environmentalists. They're not protecting the forest because they think it's morally right, but because they have a religious pact with an entity that grants them protection, but the price for it is not being allowed to touch this forest that belongs to the entity in any way. So harvesting from other forests is fine. It's basically like being allowed to stay at someone's house, but only so if one follows the rules set by that person. What you do somewhere else doesn't matter.

And of course some aspects don't need to make much sense, as it's a cultic belief, and those are man-made (or mer-made in this case) and often arbitrary, habits form over the centuries, etc. It's culture, not (following rules of) nature, and that's also why aspects like actual ecology and natural cycles don't matter much in that regard.

In a way it subverts the "elves love nature" trope. And also, so Dunmer or Dwemer care much? Or Orsimer? The Altmer love their gardens, but that's more because of their beauty and high culture thing (with ideals and perfection everywhere - in aesthetics, in architecture, in life, in landscapes, etc; there's a lot of the Classicist era's idea of antique times in that, but we've already discussed elsewhere how much of ancient Greece there is in Altmer and earlier Aldmer culture).

metheglyn wrote: »

I've wondered why, too. I know that, in fiction writing, romantasy is currently a very popular sub-genre. Perhaps it's an acknowledgement of that? I mean, as far as they can. ESO writing will never be as explicit as romantasy writing gets, so the ESO version ends up being brash, untimely flirting. I have no idea if it's actually an influence, but I do find it interesting that the rise of romantasy sort of coincided with the rise of reckless flirting in game.

These are novels? Then they surely consist of some kind of storyline and invoke emotions? Or is it really just "Hey handsome!" and then it's off to bed? Where would be the appeal in that?

metheglyn · June 23

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I've wondered why, too. I know that, in fiction writing, romantasy is currently a very popular sub-genre. Perhaps it's an acknowledgement of that? I mean, as far as they can. ESO writing will never be as explicit as romantasy writing gets, so the ESO version ends up being brash, untimely flirting. I have no idea if it's actually an influence, but I do find it interesting that the rise of romantasy sort of coincided with the rise of reckless flirting in game.

These are novels? Then they surely consist of some kind of storyline and invoke emotions? Or is it really just "Hey handsome!" and then it's off to bed? Where would be the appeal in that?

They are novels, and they are long, and they have world-building and some character development, and they seem to all be a series (as many fantasy novels are). The storylines are fairly generic (of the few I've read) all along the lines of: threat to the world, chosen one protagonist, etc. They are stuffed to the brim with tropes. The main character is usually female, is usually written in first person, and has lustful thoughts about the main male character almost moments after meeting him, even if those thoughts are mixed up with the tired old, "I hate him!" so the author can shoehorn in an "enemy to lover" trope. It's a little more involved than "hey handsome!" and off to bed, but not by much, and the "off to bed" scenes are very explicit.

Perhaps you can tell this type of genre is not for me. I tried a few of them just to see what all the fuss was about, don't particularly care for them, and won't be reading any more. But they are popular and people do like them. And if that type of romance is what people like/want, then maybe that bled over a little into the romance writing for this game. I don't say it did, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out it did.

Edit to add: As to what the appeal is, I cannot answer that, as this genre does not appeal to me.

Syldras · June 23

metheglyn wrote: »

They are novels, and they are long, and they have world-building and some character development, and they seem to all be a series (as many fantasy novels are). The storylines are fairly generic (of the few I've read) all along the lines of: threat to the world, chosen one protagonist, etc. They are stuffed to the brim with tropes. The main character is usually female, is usually written in first person, and has lustful thoughts about the main male character almost moments after meeting him, even if those thoughts are mixed up with the tired old, "I hate him!" so the author can shoehorn in an "enemy to lover" trope. It's a little more involved than "hey handsome!" and off to bed, but not by much, and the "off to bed" scenes are very explicit.

That sounds like those small story brochures with corseted ladies and long-haired buff guys with torn-open frilled shirts on their covers, but as a full paperback novel, so with a bit more detail as staffage to fill the pages. To each their own, I guess. But would the people who enjoy these also play TES games? Because otherwise trying to appeal to this demographic doesn't seem to be a reasonable decision, especially if it includes warping the world of TES accordingly (and probably alienating many other fans in the process).

metheglyn · June 23

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

They are novels, and they are long, and they have world-building and some character development, and they seem to all be a series (as many fantasy novels are). The storylines are fairly generic (of the few I've read) all along the lines of: threat to the world, chosen one protagonist, etc. They are stuffed to the brim with tropes. The main character is usually female, is usually written in first person, and has lustful thoughts about the main male character almost moments after meeting him, even if those thoughts are mixed up with the tired old, "I hate him!" so the author can shoehorn in an "enemy to lover" trope. It's a little more involved than "hey handsome!" and off to bed, but not by much, and the "off to bed" scenes are very explicit.

That sounds like those small story brochures with corseted ladies and long-haired buff guys with torn-open frilled shirts on their covers, but as a full paperback novel, so with a bit more detail as staffage to fill the pages. To each their own, I guess. But would the people who enjoy these also play TES games? Because otherwise trying to appeal to this demographic doesn't seem to be a reasonable decision, especially if it includes warping the world of TES accordingly (and probably alienating many other fans in the process).

There's probably some crossover; fandoms rarely exist in a vacuum, after all. And I don't know if the rise of romantasy has anything to do with the rise of reckless flirting in ESO. It's just a possibility I thought about when casting around for the 'why' of certain writing I've seen in game. Different writers, different writing styles, different trends, different marketing ideas: they all likely play some role.

I know the way romance has been presented in the game the past few years does not appeal to me, and I've seen on these forums it doesn't appeal to others. What the average non-forum posting ESO player feels about it I couldn't say. And I also don't say that this style of romance has no place in the game; it just bums me out that it seems right now to be the only style we get. It's as if the writing in general is becoming more one-note when in the past it has been nicely varied--like how we see with more and more npcs and quests becoming just comic relief.

Heren · June 23

Syldras wrote: »

I wouldn't even say the Bosmer are environmentalists. They're not protecting the forest because they think it's morally right, but because they have a religious pact with an entity that grants them protection, but the price for it is not being allowed to touch this forest that belongs to the entity in any way. So harvesting from other forests is fine. It's basically like being allowed to stay at someone's house, but only so if one follows the rules set by that person. What you do somewhere else doesn't matter.

And of course some aspects don't need to make much sense, as it's a cultic belief, and those are man-made (or mer-made in this case) and often arbitrary, habits form over the centuries, etc. It's culture, not (following rules of) nature, and that's also why aspects like actual ecology and natural cycles don't matter much in that regard.

In a way it subverts the "elves love nature" trope. And also, so Dunmer or Dwemer care much? Or Orsimer? The Altmer love their gardens, but that's more because of their beauty and high culture thing (with ideals and perfection everywhere - in aesthetics, in architecture, in life, in landscapes, etc; there's a lot of the Classicist era's idea of antique times in that, but we've already discussed elsewhere how much of ancient Greece there is in Altmer and earlier Aldmer culture).

Say, I was mentionning bosmer because they fit the 'old' fantasy trope of protecting (some ) nature ( that could be considered, maybe, early or primitive environmentalism ) without being modern environmentalists. After that I rumble a bit about the Green Pact, because I'm not entirely fan of it ( of the idea and of how it's depicted in game ). Maybe it's because when you mix strongly enforced 'religious' rules ( that could get you trapped in tare for all eternity or something like that ) and cultural believes deriving from these rules, you get something weird and not entirely coherent.

But even so, if there is to be some morale direction in the writting ( and I think it's inevitable, and good, to a degree ), I guess I'll rather have the 'don't touch the trees ( but kill all animals )' weirdos rather than the 'clean the beach' Solstice Altmer ( I have no idea what the quest really tell so I'm just making up ).

Syldras · June 23

metheglyn wrote: »

I also don't say that this style of romance has no place in the game; it just bums me out that it seems right now to be the only style we get. It's as if the writing in general is becoming more one-note when in the past it has been nicely varied--like how we see with more and more npcs and quests becoming just comic relief.

It's a tendency towards less complexity in general, it seems.

I've also wondered if there's a tendency to generally avoid negative emotions now, and everything bad that happens is actually just some keyword to progress the (positive) hero's story?

Like, if someone dies, there's no big mourning, but it's just a trigger for some revenge story. The big threat of the chapter? Doesn't actually feel dire, but it's basically just the backdrop for the hero's story, because there has to be some problem the hero solves. The "evil" characters? Who cares who they are and why they do it, but the story needs some baddies for the hero to beat up.

That would be a pity, because even while I'm playing the "hero" in this game, this "hero story" has never been the thing I was interested in most, if that makes any sense? I don't need my character to be glorified, I don't want to be the praised saviour of whatever, but my focus while playing is what happens around me - the fictional world, the lore, the stories there, the characters I come across. Turning these things to simple backdrops for our shiny hero's story only would be something I'd absolutely not enjoy.

metheglyn · June 23

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also don't say that this style of romance has no place in the game; it just bums me out that it seems right now to be the only style we get. It's as if the writing in general is becoming more one-note when in the past it has been nicely varied--like how we see with more and more npcs and quests becoming just comic relief.

It's a tendency towards less complexity in general, it seems.

I've also wondered if there's a tendency to generally avoid negative emotions now, and everything bad that happens is actually just some keyword to progress the (positive) hero's story?

Like, if someone dies, there's no big mourning, but it's just a trigger for some revenge story. The big threat of the chapter? Doesn't actually feel dire, but it's basically just the backdrop for the hero's story, because there has to be some problem the hero solves. The "evil" characters? Who cares who they are and why they do it, but the story needs some baddies for the hero to beat up.

That would be a pity, because even while I'm playing the "hero" in this game, this "hero story" has never been the thing I was interested in most, if that makes any sense? I don't need my character to be glorified, I don't want to be the praised saviour of whatever, but my focus while playing is what happens around me - the fictional world, the lore, the stories there, the characters I come across. Turning these things to simple backdrops for our shiny hero's story only would be something I'd absolutely not enjoy.

I also don't want to be some glorified hero. They used to take into account that some of our actions would not be seen as "great" by everyone, in the idle comments npcs can make around you, based on quests you've done. There's an Altmer line that goes something like, "You saved our high and mighty queen. I still think Naemon should have been king." (I don't think it's exactly that, but close enough). The voice line isn't complimentary at all; the npc isn't appreciative of your efforts. There's another, more directly disapproving line you can get depending on which outcome you choose for the Phaer questline. These are very small touches, but they give the impression that the world has people in it with their own opinions on your actions. I liked the idea that people wouldn't necessarily agree with me, or think I was some great hero, even if I didn't like their judgy attitude about it.

But they don't seem to do that kind of thing anymore. Usually if an npc comments on the many things you've done, it's to praise you.

I would like a return to hard choices and morally grey outcomes. I know that no choice we ever make in an MMO is going to significantly alter the world, but at least give me something to think about before I make a decision.

Finedaible · June 23

metheglyn wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also don't say that this style of romance has no place in the game; it just bums me out that it seems right now to be the only style we get. It's as if the writing in general is becoming more one-note when in the past it has been nicely varied--like how we see with more and more npcs and quests becoming just comic relief.

It's a tendency towards less complexity in general, it seems.

I've also wondered if there's a tendency to generally avoid negative emotions now, and everything bad that happens is actually just some keyword to progress the (positive) hero's story?

Like, if someone dies, there's no big mourning, but it's just a trigger for some revenge story. The big threat of the chapter? Doesn't actually feel dire, but it's basically just the backdrop for the hero's story, because there has to be some problem the hero solves. The "evil" characters? Who cares who they are and why they do it, but the story needs some baddies for the hero to beat up.

That would be a pity, because even while I'm playing the "hero" in this game, this "hero story" has never been the thing I was interested in most, if that makes any sense? I don't need my character to be glorified, I don't want to be the praised saviour of whatever, but my focus while playing is what happens around me - the fictional world, the lore, the stories there, the characters I come across. Turning these things to simple backdrops for our shiny hero's story only would be something I'd absolutely not enjoy.

I also don't want to be some glorified hero. They used to take into account that some of our actions would not be seen as "great" by everyone, in the idle comments npcs can make around you, based on quests you've done. There's an Altmer line that goes something like, "You saved our high and mighty queen. I still think Naemon should have been king." (I don't think it's exactly that, but close enough). The voice line isn't complimentary at all; the npc isn't appreciative of your efforts. There's another, more directly disapproving line you can get depending on which outcome you choose for the Phaer questline. These are very small touches, but they give the impression that the world has people in it with their own opinions on your actions. I liked the idea that people wouldn't necessarily agree with me, or think I was some great hero, even if I didn't like their judgy attitude about it.

But they don't seem to do that kind of thing anymore. Usually if an npc comments on the many things you've done, it's to praise you.

I would like a return to hard choices and morally grey outcomes. I know that no choice we ever make in an MMO is going to significantly alter the world, but at least give me something to think about before I make a decision.

I remember Stormhaven having some really tough decisions that I had to think about for a good while, weighing what consequences my character's actions would have on other characters or the stability of the Covenant as a whole. The whole experience was something extremely memorable and felt significant because WE made the choice. Honestly it felt as close as you could get to a single player Elder Scrolls title as you could in an MMO and nothing today comes even close.

metheglyn · June 24

Finedaible wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also don't want to be some glorified hero. They used to take into account that some of our actions would not be seen as "great" by everyone, in the idle comments npcs can make around you, based on quests you've done. There's an Altmer line that goes something like, "You saved our high and mighty queen. I still think Naemon should have been king." (I don't think it's exactly that, but close enough). The voice line isn't complimentary at all; the npc isn't appreciative of your efforts. There's another, more directly disapproving line you can get depending on which outcome you choose for the Phaer questline. These are very small touches, but they give the impression that the world has people in it with their own opinions on your actions. I liked the idea that people wouldn't necessarily agree with me, or think I was some great hero, even if I didn't like their judgy attitude about it.

But they don't seem to do that kind of thing anymore. Usually if an npc comments on the many things you've done, it's to praise you.

I would like a return to hard choices and morally grey outcomes. I know that no choice we ever make in an MMO is going to significantly alter the world, but at least give me something to think about before I make a decision.

I remember Stormhaven having some really tough decisions that I had to think about for a good while, weighing what consequences my character's actions would have on other characters or the stability of the Covenant as a whole. The whole experience was something extremely memorable and felt significant because WE made the choice. Honestly it felt as close as you could get to a single player Elder Scrolls title as you could in an MMO and nothing today comes even close.

That's a shame, too, because it isn't as if there aren't places they could put decisions like that. That's one thing that surprised me about the temple of Meridia quest in Solstice. It really seemed like it might be leading up to one of those kind of choices, but in the end, nope. I think that was a missed opportunity. They could have also given us the choice at the fair to side with either the goat or the lady. That wouldn't have been as impactful, but it would have been something, and since the fair doesn't change after you finish the quest, no reason we couldn't have gone all-in with the lady's plans.

Syldras · June 24

metheglyn wrote: »

I also don't want to be some glorified hero. They used to take into account that some of our actions would not be seen as "great" by everyone, in the idle comments npcs can make around you, based on quests you've done. There's an Altmer line that goes something like, "You saved our high and mighty queen. I still think Naemon should have been king." (I don't think it's exactly that, but close enough). The voice line isn't complimentary at all; the npc isn't appreciative of your efforts. There's another, more directly disapproving line you can get depending on which outcome you choose for the Phaer questline. These are very small touches, but they give the impression that the world has people in it with their own opinions on your actions. I liked the idea that people wouldn't necessarily agree with me, or think I was some great hero, even if I didn't like their judgy attitude about it.
But they don't seem to do that kind of thing anymore. Usually if an npc comments on the many things you've done, it's to praise you.

Who knows, maybe some people complained? I remember I saw complaints about companions' dislikes repeatedly, even things like a character written as morally good not being okay with killing random innocent people with the Blade of Woe. And yes, I see how for people who see companions as nothing more than some tool might be annoyed by them having likes and dislikes and something like a character - but removing it would make no sense for them, since they are supposed to be people, living beings with a world view and their own mind, within the world of Tamriel. Same goes for other npcs from my point of view: Of course they won't all like what I do. And I did like it that this was also reflected in game, earlier.

metheglyn wrote: »

I would like a return to hard choices and morally grey outcomes. I know that no choice we ever make in an MMO is going to significantly alter the world, but at least give me something to think about before I make a decision.

Same. It makes situations feel more meaningful.

metheglyn · June 24

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also don't want to be some glorified hero. They used to take into account that some of our actions would not be seen as "great" by everyone, in the idle comments npcs can make around you, based on quests you've done. There's an Altmer line that goes something like, "You saved our high and mighty queen. I still think Naemon should have been king." (I don't think it's exactly that, but close enough). The voice line isn't complimentary at all; the npc isn't appreciative of your efforts. There's another, more directly disapproving line you can get depending on which outcome you choose for the Phaer questline. These are very small touches, but they give the impression that the world has people in it with their own opinions on your actions. I liked the idea that people wouldn't necessarily agree with me, or think I was some great hero, even if I didn't like their judgy attitude about it.
But they don't seem to do that kind of thing anymore. Usually if an npc comments on the many things you've done, it's to praise you.

Who knows, maybe some people complained? I remember I saw complaints about companions' dislikes repeatedly, even things like a character written as morally good not being okay with killing random innocent people with the Blade of Woe. And yes, I see how for people who see companions as nothing more than some tool might be annoyed by them having likes and dislikes and something like a character - but removing it would make no sense for them, since they are supposed to be people, living beings with a world view and their own mind, within the world of Tamriel. Same goes for other npcs from my point of view: Of course they won't all like what I do. And I did like it that this was also reflected in game, earlier.

It wasn't a complaint, precisely, but I did once see someone say that if they had known their choice in the Phaer quest was going to result in npcs chastising them, they wouldn't have chosen it, because they don't like being scolded in game by random npcs. But, the forums being what they are, I'm sure there were complaints about it at some point.

I wouldn't say I like being scolded by npcs for my choices, but I like that npcs exist who will do that. It does also give me pause as I'm going about my day, and make me want to engage with the npc and say, "Maybe you don't know all the details of what happened." Like I can sort out some kind of gossip misinformation. I don't know how word of my exploits spreads so far and wide, but it's not hard to imagine the tales get distorted in the telling and over time.

As for companions, I like that they have specific things they don't like and don't want to put up with. Aren't we all like that? It makes them more real as characters. I think people might exaggerate the inconvenience of it, too, in order to make their point. You lose, what, one rapport point with Mirri if you harvest a bug near her? And it's on a five minute timer? Well, go read a book and gain five rapport if losing that one point is really an issue. And if it's just her mentioning that you shouldn't do it that's irritating, well, you just irritated her by doing it, so you're even.

(To be clear, was using the general 'you' in that example, not the specific 'you'.)

Syldras · June 24

metheglyn wrote: »

As for companions, I like that they have specific things they don't like and don't want to put up with. Aren't we all like that? It makes them more real as characters. I think people might exaggerate the inconvenience of it, too, in order to make their point. You lose, what, one rapport point with Mirri if you harvest a bug near her? And it's on a five minute timer? Well, go read a book and gain five rapport if losing that one point is really an issue. And if it's just her mentioning that you shouldn't do it that's irritating, well, you just irritated her by doing it, so you're even. (To be clear, was using the general 'you' in that example, not the specific 'you'.)

I sometimes tease Azandar deliberately. It really makes no big difference and automatically evens up at some point.

Slightly different topic, but also writing-related of course: By chance I came across a review of some entirely different work (not TES-related or even gaming-related at all; it was about a movie adaption of an older semi-autobiographical book - well, not even that old, actually, but from the late 1920's), and there was a positive mention that the movie would have been "adjusted" by removing "historical circumstances" which "a young audience can't identify with anymore" - like that's the ideal thing to do: Just change a historical work, remove everything that's historical about it (even worse in this case since it was about real world history), based on the assumption that today's public wouldn't be able to understand it anymore if it's not exactly like their everyday life. I found that rather strange. And of course it made me wonder how common that way of thinking is today, and whether our writers here might have the same thing in mind at times.

metheglyn · June 24

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As for companions, I like that they have specific things they don't like and don't want to put up with. Aren't we all like that? It makes them more real as characters. I think people might exaggerate the inconvenience of it, too, in order to make their point. You lose, what, one rapport point with Mirri if you harvest a bug near her? And it's on a five minute timer? Well, go read a book and gain five rapport if losing that one point is really an issue. And if it's just her mentioning that you shouldn't do it that's irritating, well, you just irritated her by doing it, so you're even. (To be clear, was using the general 'you' in that example, not the specific 'you'.)

I sometimes tease Azandar deliberately. It really makes no big difference and automatically evens up at some point.

Slightly different topic, but also writing-related of course: By chance I came across a review of some entirely different work (not TES-related or even gaming-related at all; it was about a movie adaption of an older semi-autobiographical book - well, not even that old, actually, but from the late 1920's), and there was a positive mention that the movie would have been "adjusted" by removing "historical circumstances" which "a young audience can't identify with anymore" - like that's the ideal thing to do: Just change a historical work, remove everything that's historical about it (even worse in this case since it was about real world history), based on the assumption that today's public wouldn't be able to understand it anymore if it's not exactly like their everyday life. I found that rather strange. And of course it made me wonder how common that way of thinking is today, and whether our writers here might have the same thing in mind at times.

It is an odd way of thinking. I don't think it's a common way of thinking, or maybe I just hope it isn't. I know that if I come across something in a movie or book that I don't understand, I'll look it up. I don't think I'm unusual in that, especially not in this day when basic research is so easy. I do think the writers here might attempt to appeal to as broad an audience as possible, which can work, but can also have a watering-down aspect to it that makes things feel somewhat generic.

That quest I mentioned before about an older couple returning to a place important to them--that's an idea that can appeal to a broad audience, and it works because of a few specific details that set it in the world of Tamriel--the exact flowers and the meaning of them. So a broad appeal isn't necessarily bad; it's about how it's handled.

Syldras · June 24

metheglyn wrote: »

That quest I mentioned before about an older couple returning to a place important to them--that's an idea that can appeal to a broad audience, and it works because of a few specific details that set it in the world of Tamriel--the exact flowers and the meaning of them. So a broad appeal isn't necessarily bad; it's about how it's handled.

I think it's a big difference whether a story is about something very universal that could take place in all kinds of societies and eras (like a couple having spent their whole lives together) or whether one very specific cultural thing is changed to the current norms or moral ideas in assumption that today's audience would not understand or appreciate it otherwise. In ESO that would be things like removing some aspects of a game's culture (like, for example, Bosmer cannibalism), because people could dislike it. And I'm not sure whether we haven't seen a few cases of that already in ESO.

And because I'm already complaining, I received a newsletter from a bookstore chain and it's... interesting (not only because it's actually in German language, but still riddled with random English phrases because "cool"; and why do I even get this nonsense? My profile data clearly says that I'm male and in my late 30's and the only book I've ordered there was about aviation history... but anyway). Let me quote from it: "Booktok made me buy it!", "One click to your favorite tropes!", "Get ready to get obsessed!", (and the following ones translated from German) "Discover spicy stories and book boyfriends who ruin your standards!", "What are tropes? Tropes are recurring plot patterns, character dynamics, or story ideas that we recognize, expect, and celebrate." (And I just noticed that at the end of the newsletter it says I received this thing because I showed interest in "foreign-language books" - well, yes, the aviation book was in English.) Not sure if there's any more to say than: If I hadn't been suffering from gastroenteritis anyway right now, I'm quite sure this would have made me sick. I really hope, if this seems to be the current way to sell stories to the masses, that this style will not find its way to ESO. Ever.

(And in case anyone asks how this is ESO related: It does touch a few topics that also exist in ESO's writing - fan favorites, how they write "romance" content, and the use of tropes/clichés.)

metheglyn · June 24

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

That quest I mentioned before about an older couple returning to a place important to them--that's an idea that can appeal to a broad audience, and it works because of a few specific details that set it in the world of Tamriel--the exact flowers and the meaning of them. So a broad appeal isn't necessarily bad; it's about how it's handled.

I think it's a big difference whether a story is about something very universal that could take place in all kinds of societies and eras (like a couple having spent their whole lives together) or whether one very specific cultural thing is changed to the current norms or moral ideas in assumption that today's audience would not understand or appreciate it otherwise. In ESO that would be things like removing some aspects of a game's culture (like, for example, Bosmer cannibalism), because people could dislike it. And I'm not sure whether we haven't seen a few cases of that already in ESO.

And because I'm already complaining, I received a newsletter from a bookstore chain and it's... interesting (not only because it's actually in German language, but still riddled with random English phrases because "cool"; and why do I even get this nonsense? My profile data clearly says that I'm male and in my late 30's and the only book I've ordered there was about aviation history... but anyway). Let me quote from it: "Booktok made me buy it!", "One click to your favorite tropes!", "Get ready to get obsessed!", (and the following ones translated from German) "Discover spicy stories and book boyfriends who ruin your standards!", "What are tropes? Tropes are recurring plot patterns, character dynamics, or story ideas that we recognize, expect, and celebrate." (And I just noticed that at the end of the newsletter it says I received this thing because I showed interest in "foreign-language books" - well, yes, the aviation book was in English.) Not sure if there's any more to say than: If I hadn't been suffering from gastroenteritis anyway right now, I'm quite sure this would have made me sick. I really hope, if this seems to be the current way to sell stories to the masses, that this style will not find its way to ESO. Ever.

(And in case anyone asks how this is ESO related: It does touch a few topics that also exist in ESO's writing - fan favorites, how they write "romance" content, and the use of tropes/clichés.)

I only recently learned about Booktok, and only then because a book I had checked out of the library had some blurbs about how it was a booktok favorite, or creation, or whatever (book wasn't that interesting and I didn't finish it). I have to say, "book boyfriends who ruin your standards" made me laugh. Why would anyone want that? Well, I am sorry that made its way to your inbox. I'm assuming you can unsubscribe and never be bothered by it again.

But none of what I just wrote has anything to do with ESO, so I better make this post relevant. I actually just did a quest today in Reaper's March that dealt with Bosmer cannibalism, and it got me to thinking that they really don't touch on that any more in Bosmer stories. And in this particular quest, it wasn't the "eat the flesh of your fallen foes" meat mandate type; it was some other ritualistic thing with the Green Pact, a deal involving a pact-hostage to insure equity when the person on one side of the deal has more power than the person on the other side. It was really quite interesting, the details put into the quest.

I really appreciate the quests like that which have such details and let you dive a little deeper into the lore of the various cultures. The quest in the Tide-Born village on Solstice had such interesting details, and if the ending hadn't been a weird downplay of Sithis, the quest would have been much better. Up until the "happy Sithis ending," I had enjoyed learning more about the Tide-Born and their ways.

Also, I hope you feel better soon!

Oh, edit to add: Does anyone really celebrate tropes? Recognize, yes. Expect, sadly. Celebrate?

whitecrow · June 24

I remember when tropes were something to be avoided in creative writing. Sigh.