metheglyn wrote: »

I sometimes wonder what they wanted us to get from those Artaeum flashbacks. Were they really meant to show what we got out of it, or was it meant to be more "proof" of how bad/evil he is, and always has been?

Then it didn't really work out, I guess, because we clearly see that Mannimarco is, at some point, friendly towards Vanny and wants him, as an equal, by his side (and if he had always been super horrible, Vanny wouldn't likely have befriended with him either). It ends horribly, of course, but really, he was just an ambitious young man back then, a bit freer in terms of morals than it was good for him. Or anyone else.

metheglyn wrote: »

But you're right, there is more to him in the game than just his quest persona; I wonder how many people pick up on it? (I am curious, in a general way, how many people read the lore books--I don't mean click on them just to get them in the collection, but actually read them).

I think, unfortunately, not many. Same with Vanny's background lore. Guess a lot would be very surprised if they knew what we learn about them through lorebooks.

metheglyn wrote: »

I would like them to use those hints to build on his character; I would just be surprised if they did.

I'm already afraid right now that Part 2 might be a huge disappointment to my expectations, because of the ideas we have developed here and in the other thread about how it could look like, with them getting deep into Mannimarco (and Vanny) lore and maybe change his depiction a bit towards a a little more "neutral" character. Or just not as completely stereotypically evil. Which I don't believe will happen, until I might see it with my own eyes.

metheglyn wrote: »

They could introduce some element in the UI that would let people know the order of the story, so if continuity and chronology mattered to them, they could follow it. Characters actually changing with the passage of time and their experiences would be nice to see.

Yes. Everything that makes the world feel less static would be positive, because that static state blocks a lot of interesting things that could be done narratively otherwise.

metheglyn wrote: »

I couldn't guess. They all seem to be aimed at getting new people interested.

Maybe they want to appeal to different generations? I don't want to imagine how they'd try to market ESO to people my age or maybe even a generation younger

metheglyn wrote: »

That's odd that there are only four. Usually there's one for each world boss and delve. Shouldn't there be six?

All I can say is that I've been doing them 3 days in a row now and they already repeat. Okay, I checked on UESP, it's indeed 3+3. Strange. You usually didn't get the same one 2 days in a row, did you? I always thought they'd just rotate. Or might that have happened now because today was update day? Maybe that reset the order.

metheglyn wrote: »

And fog at the coast, huh? You know, considering how misty they make the area around Corelanya Manor, I'd think they could make more of a foggy/obscured coastline situation--that would lend credence to the "hard to find" aspect of the island.

I agree. And it should last longer than just 1 or 2 minutes.

metheglyn wrote: »

We do, and I've been waiting for years for more hints about that relationship, but as we've never gotten any, it made me wonder if I read too much into it.

I sometimes wonder how much they still think about old lore or the situations we encountered in the first few chapters when writing new stories. The old writers from back then are largely not here anymore. Of course it's possible to re-read everything, but how often does it happen? And I don't mean to blame them, really. The thing I want to say is just that it's always a risk if writers change during a continuous story. Everyone has a different tone when writing, and might understand characters differently than another writer might have understood or intended them - that's just normal. And there's so much background lore, is there even enough time to familiarize oneself with it in detail before starting to write a story? I just truly hope that, if they might do a bit more Mannimarco lore in Part 2, they take what happened on Artaeum into consideration.

metheglyn wrote: »

I really couldn't say. I don't know what the kids are into these days.

I knew what was "trending" until I left school. I didn't really care, but you'd still hear the smalltalk of other students all the time, so you were informed about it, whether you cared or not. But since I left school... I have no clue, really. And that's almost 20 years ago now.

metheglyn wrote: »

I've never understood exactly how those dailies are tracked, because different people can have different ones on the same day. That's why you see people asking others to share specific dailies in zones.

I'm not doing dailies often (except for crafting), I have to admit. It's just not interesting for me. I want to see the story once, and then, that's it (unless maybe I need to farm some antiquity lead - that's the reason I'm doing it on Solstice right now). But from what I've seen, I'd say that I never had the same quest two days in a row. So I think it does at least track that somehow, and what I saw today might really have been the result of some "reset" caused by the update.

metheglyn wrote: »

I mean, to fit with lore, it should be permanent. But then we wouldn't get those sea view vistas, which can be quite stunning.

I think some sunny hours would be okay. Have you seen the ornaugs in the water? They have nice animations.

Isn't it strange actually that there's no tides? I know, technical limitations, probably.

metheglyn wrote: »

For sure it's a lot to keep in mind when setting out to write a continuation of a story or character. I would love to read a journal of Mannimarco circa his time on Artaeum, before he was expelled and proclaimed his hatred of Vanny. I would like to see his perspective on necromancy further explained. We got that bit in Artaeum with him saying, "It's just a bit of puppetry" which hints at necromancy not as evil, or not done with evil intent, like some lore we got in Corelanya Manor, with their view of necromancy (such as the pure practicality of skeleton servants being better than living ones).

I still wouldn't rule out that he might be Corelanya and from some part of the family that did not really give up necromancy for a long time (or maybe they did, but he got into it upon reading old books or diaries kept hidden somewhere in his family mansion; that would be another more Lovecraftian story than Necrom was). It would truly be interesting to read more about his thoughts back then. Maybe also some change in sentiment over the months, and the conflict he got into with Vanny because of that.

I'm not even sure whether he truly hates him, completely, by the way. Was he angry when he had been threatened that his activity would be reported, or when Vanny finally did report him? Certainly. But there's a difference between situative anger and constant hatred. And then, there's that strange obsession about him, that we still see centuries later.

metheglyn wrote: »

Can you get leads from the daily rewards? If so, I might have to pay some attention to them. If not...eh, dailies in general just don't do it for me. I might do a new set once, just to see if there's an interesting story, but beyond that I'm not a fan.

There are. On Solstice, one lead for a music box drops from the daily quest reward boxes. I got all other leads for it by chance, so I'm trying to get the last one now... Not even sure how that thing sounds, to be honest, but it wouldn't be bad to get the index entry completed, and also, I've finished the new story content, so what else would I do now, for almost 5 months...

metheglyn wrote: »

I have seen the ornaugs. I like those touches to the landscape/scenery.

Those are always nice. I think I noticed a few new animations for whatever Solstice's wildlife is doing.

metheglyn wrote: »

It's too bad they can't show tides, since tides are very important to the Argonian society. Besides which, tidal landscapes are really cool.

It's interesting to think about how they'd behave, with two moons present.

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm not sure if he hates him or not; that's why I said he proclaimed his hatred. He might say it rather dramatically, but does he really feel it? And while hatred can lead to obsessive behavior, I feel like there's more at work than that in his thoughts of Vanny.

I rarely hear of people raising 100 ft tall statues of people they hate in the middle of their abode

metheglyn wrote: »

Oh boy, guess I better check out those dailies.

It's not really fun doing the same 3 tasks for days. Especially if one doesn't know when the lead will drop - could be within 4 days, or 4 weeks, or maybe 4 months?I just hope it won't take too long, otherwise I might change my opinion and ignore it.

I can remember there was another lead dropping from dailies somewhere... Leyawiin? Skingrad? I really can't remember anymore, except for that this kept me busy for a whole while as well. And while that certainly prolongs the overall play time, I'd rather see more unique things than endless repetitions.

metheglyn wrote: »

Edit to add: Well, I did those dailies, and that Lector Volonaro has got some nerve. He called me tawdry! Me!

Wasn't that the guy who tells us in detail about what we find on the other side of the Whispering Wall?

metheglyn wrote: »

You know, I hadn't considered that. That would make for much more interesting tidal patterns.

Maybe we'll see that in one of the future TES games. I really think it could be something they might do. They've also shown great care when it comes to the sky, after all. Also in ESO, you can find all constellations that are in lore when looking at the night sky. Well, if you're talented, you can. I've tried it, when the sky was clear enough, but I didn't find much.

metheglyn wrote: »

Point. Of course, that's unsubstantiated rumor, or something. Not that I don't believe it, though.

And then there's the quote from Oblivion which is horrifying in different regards, but it doesn't really sound like hatred either.

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, I lose interest in dailies real fast, even when they have something I want. All I got today was a tide-born mace motif page, which was nice enough for the effort I put in.

I only got those scribing things that I already have - and don't really use anyway.

metheglyn wrote: »

Yes, but I didn't progress that part of the conversation with him. I couldn't bear to ask him what a planemeld was.

I asked him out of curiosity what some Altmer from some remote island would know about that.

metheglyn wrote: »

I've looked up at the night sky in game before; can't say I ever found any constellations. But that isn't surprising, as I'm not very good at finding constellations in the real life sky, either. Every time I do spot one, all I can think is something like: who saw a bear in that?

The bear constellations are also called the "carts" here, which I find more obvious. Those are easy to find for me, as well as Orion; but that's it. In ESO, I think I've also seen a horizontal line of three bright stars once, and wondered whether that might have been the belt of the Mage. But I can't say for sure.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Point. Of course, that's unsubstantiated rumor, or something. Not that I don't believe it, though.

And then there's the quote from Oblivion which is horrifying in different regards, but it doesn't really sound like hatred either.

What's that quote? Or am I better off not knowing?

Edit to add: Never mind! I saw it in the other thread. Creepy! I was better off not knowing, but there's no going back now.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, I lose interest in dailies real fast, even when they have something I want. All I got today was a tide-born mace motif page, which was nice enough for the effort I put in.

I only got those scribing things that I already have - and don't really use anyway.

Ha, yeah, I got those as well, but I don't count them as anything worthwhile.

Syldras wrote: »

I asked him out of curiosity what some Altmer from some remote island would know about that.

I'm guessing it was far more than he logically should.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I've looked up at the night sky in game before; can't say I ever found any constellations. But that isn't surprising, as I'm not very good at finding constellations in the real life sky, either. Every time I do spot one, all I can think is something like: who saw a bear in that?

The bear constellations are also called the "carts" here, which I find more obvious. Those are easy to find for me, as well as Orion; but that's it. In ESO, I think I've also seen a horizontal line of three bright stars once, and wondered whether that might have been the belt of the Mage. But I can't say for sure.

Yeah, Orion's belt and the carts (better name!) are about my limit of "I know what those are" constellations. Next time I have a chance, I'll look up at ESO's sky again and see if anything stands out.

StormBlade512 wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

StormBlade512 wrote: »

I don't think we even know if the Worm Cult as a whole knew about Mannimarco's plot to betray Molag Bal. They are still venerating him because they don't know any better, and without Mannimarco to set the record straight they still very much believe that the original plan (planemeld) is still 'on'.

Right, and that's why I'm curious if there are any conflicting motives or plans between the cult as it exists under Wormblood's leadership and Mannimarco's intentions.

I'm holding out hope that there will be some kind of schism in the Cult. I want a certain someone to try and reclaim what is his..maybe ally with us in the process? Certain actions don't exactly engender loyalty so maybe he's still around and out for revenge.

I have wondered if that certain someone has any role left to play. I would hope so, because otherwise what a waste! What I don't want is a repeat of the main quest where we foil Molag Bal's plans and Meridia tells us it was probably all part of his plan anyway.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

What's that quote? Or am I better off not knowing?
Edit to add: Never mind! I saw it in the other thread. Creepy! I was better off not knowing, but there's no going back now.

We can't say how truthful that statement is, though. It's not like he's not trying to seem more intimidating than he possibly is.

In general, I don't believe anything Mannimarco has to say until I see evidence of his claims. That line wouldn't make me think him intimidating, necessarily. Unhinged, yes. Creepy, definitely.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Ha, yeah, I got those as well, but I don't count them as anything worthwhile.

I'm not sure what to do with them anyway, as I think they're not tradeable? Or are they? Right now I'm just throwing them into a box.

I stick them in the bank and then at some point remember to have my alts learn them. I don't think they are tradeable. One of the quests I had yesterday, by the way, wasn't even in a delve: it was just out on the landscape, which surprised me.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I'm guessing it was far more than he logically should.

For a remote island that is avoided by people because it's said to be cursed there are surely a lot of people from different cultures presents there; and while no one from the mainland seems to have ever heard of Solstice, the people of Solstice seem to know strangely detailedly about the mainland, yes. This is actually another logic mistake; if you'd write about some mysterious island no one knows, there shouldn't be many people from all over Tamriel present, and there should be no information exchange. Would have been more convincing (and better for a believable atmosphere) if the islanders of Solstice wouldn't have a clue about what's happening in Tamriel right now; they could have created dialogues that emphasize this.

The quest giver for the daily world boss hit jobs talks about how she used to be an adventurer on the mainland, and she isn't the first npc I've heard mention how they went traveling in their youth but came back to Solstice and love it even more now. So it's inconsistent at best. On the one hand we have this hard to find island that few people know about; on the other hand we have regular trade with the Maomer and Altmer taking gap years to explore the mainland.

I agree it would have been better if the islanders were clueless about the Worm Cult and planemeld, and it was up to us to fill them in on what was happening. At which point they could ask us, "But why Solstice?" And we could say, "That's the question, isn't it?"

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Yeah, Orion's belt and the carts (better name!) are about my limit of "I know what those are" constellations. Next time I have a chance, I'll look up at ESO's sky again and see if anything stands out.

I know more in real life, I just never find them. As for ESO, I'll also have a look once more, if I get the chance (or wait, actually now, we those control machines for housing, it should be easy to create a clear nightsky in one home at least).

I know them in the way that I've read about them and seen images of them in books, but when I look up at the sky, I can't detect them amongst the mass of other stars out there. Unless I use one of those sky-viewing apps that outline them for you. But, even then, our night skies are often cloudy and almost guaranteed to be so whenever some celestial event of note is going on.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

What I don't want is a repeat of the main quest where we foil Molag Bal's plans and Meridia tells us it was probably all part of his plan anyway.

This could just be what will happen, you know? It's sad that at this point I somehow just expect a repetition of the old story and nothing truly creative. Based on the experience of the last few chapters, of course, where rarely anything surprising happened and stories seemed rather formulaic.

Well, I'm still hoping for something different. Perhaps that's unrealistic, but you know what they say about hope.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

In general, I don't believe anything Mannimarco has to say until I see evidence of his claims. That line wouldn't make me think him intimidating, necessarily. Unhinged, yes. Creepy, definitely.

But it does fulfill the intended purpose: The average person would most probably leave him alone.

Well, yes, there is that.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I agree it would have been better if the islanders were clueless about the Worm Cult and planemeld, and it was up to us to fill them in on what was happening. At which point they could ask us, "But why Solstice?" And we could say, "That's the question, isn't it?"

Although there is the obvious link to the Corelanya. Must be. It wouldn't make any sense otherwise. Altmer necromancers doing strange things on an island inhabited by Altmer necromancers (former or not) can't be a coincidence. (And yes, I know that the Worm Cult doesn't only consist of Altmer, but they're certainly led by one).

Yes, I keep thinking that has to be the connection. I really hope to see something more about that in Part 2.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, I'm still hoping for something different. Perhaps that's unrealistic, but you know what they say about hope.

And what will we do if Part 2 ends completely without the interesting new lore we had been thinking about and it turns out to be nothing more than a copy of the base game main quest?

Sigh? Cry? Twist it around in our minds so that it didn't actually end like that? Talk here on the forums about how it could have been? All of the above?

I remember them saying, in the tour of the island stream, that it cuts the island in half but that there's no way to get around it in the game. They knew people would try to perhaps swim around, so they guarded against that (by excessive slaughterfish, I assume), so that's the technical reason why we, the players, can't get around that wall.

As for the lore reason...well...I haven't heard one uttered by even the most talkative of the npcs, so we're going to have to go with Worm Cult Fleet of Admiral Wormblood. (I mean, shouldn't we be nice and give him an admiral title if he commands a whole fleet?) And then, yeah, let's blame those storms as well, on the off chance anyone borrowed Vanny's magical boat and thought to slip past the guard of the fleet.

P.S. You need a two-seater mount so poor Azander doesn't have to learn to drive those crazy things!

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

As for the lore reason...well...I haven't heard one uttered by even the most talkative of the npcs, so we're going to have to go with Worm Cult Fleet of Admiral Wormblood. (I mean, shouldn't we be nice and give him an admiral title if he commands a whole fleet?) And then, yeah, let's blame those storms as well, on the off chance anyone borrowed Vanny's magical boat and thought to slip past the guard of the fleet.

Admiral Wormblood, fine with me. I'd still find it more plausible if they had arrived through portals, like a normal person. Would be more effectful, too, if they just invaded through portals, without many islanders noticing, and then suddenly the huge wall appeared over night.

I agree, portals (which even not great mages use all the time and with abandon) would have made more sense for the kind of invasion the Worm Cult did. I would love a lore explanation for why no one has tried to sail to the other side of the island. Maybe they have another Writhing Wall, or Writhing Barricades, at any point where a ship could conceivably approach the eastern side? I wonder if the idea behind it was that the only deep water port is on western Solstice, so no big ships can dock on the eastern side, and as for smaller craft...dangerous waters?

I also wonder how quickly the Writhing Wall went up. It's made of souls, right, so how fast did the Worm Cult reap those souls and send them over? I have a kind of funny image in my mind now of the Writhing Wall slowly growing over the days, from the ground up.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

P.S. You need a two-seater mount so poor Azander doesn't have to learn to drive those crazy things!

I think about getting a two-seater Dwemer car if I ever have enough spare crowns (or one becomes available through seals of endeavour). But actually, Azandar loves Vvardvarks (honestly, try summoning one), so I guess, he likes his mount as well.

So if you have him ride a Vvardvark mount, does he still make the comments about not liking riding mounts? Because if he didn't, that would be a nice touch.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I agree, portals (which even not great mages use all the time and with abandon) would have made more sense for the kind of invasion the Worm Cult did. I would love a lore explanation for why no one has tried to sail to the other side of the island. Maybe they have another Writhing Wall, or Writhing Barricades, at any point where a ship could conceivably approach the eastern side? I wonder if the idea behind it was that the only deep water port is on western Solstice, so no big ships can dock on the eastern side, and as for smaller craft...dangerous waters?

They could have designed the island as being of volcanic origin, basically like a huge old volcano with a shallow crater/caldera in the middle, open at one side, so there could be a harbour, and with a steep mountain range around the rest. But alas, it's too late for that now. And while I'd really like to see some lore-appropriate explanation, I'm not sure whether we'll get any. The longer one thinks about some aspects of this map, or the narration (in particular the end - but we already discussed that), the more questions come up...

Well, we can just decide for ourselves why it's so, then. Even if they do have more lore about the island's accessibility, I think we'll always have questions. I can appreciate that they are trying something new with the wall and associated event, but it's one thing to come up with a situation, and another thing to make it fit the world.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I also wonder how quickly the Writhing Wall went up. It's made of souls, right, so how fast did the Worm Cult reap those souls and send them over? I have a kind of funny image in my mind now of the Writhing Wall slowly growing over the days, from the ground up.

It you look closely, there are even some pillars inbetween. Would have taken a while to build. But I guess wizards did it.

*grumbles* Wizards.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

So if you have him ride a Vvardvark mount, does he still make the comments about not liking riding mounts? Because if he didn't, that would be a nice touch.

No, it's the usual lines. But I mean, even if it's a cute mount, it's still shaky and bumpy, so one still gets a back ache from it, if that's a common problem.

My characters tend to ride sabers, and when they ride sabers, they're always leaning forward and using their legs to lift themselves up a bit, like a jockey, so saddle contact is minimum, and I assume that eases some of the aches of riding. Bonus, their legs are in really good shape.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Well, we can just decide for ourselves why it's so, then.

At least until we actually see it. And I guess I'll laugh if it's mostly long, flat beaches. Or if there's another harbour. Or several. (It's already possible to see a bit of the outline of the other side of the island on the in game map, but hard to recognize any details).

Maybe it'll be all cliffs along the coastline. Exactly one half of the island's coast is sheer cliffs. Ah, I know it isn't, but that would solve some problems.

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

Even if they do have more lore about the island's accessibility, I think we'll always have questions. I can appreciate that they are trying something new with the wall and associated event, but it's one thing to come up with a situation, and another thing to make it fit the world.

It's a general tendency somehow, sadly, isn't it? There are "cool" or, let's say, imposing looking scenes and places and whatnot, but if you look at it from a lore or even just logic perspective, it's suddenly all very strange. Like the end of Part 1. I never had the impression it was that strange in earlier chapters. I never deliberately searched for plot holes, not within the last 9 years, not now; but the ending really had me thinking this time, while playing "Wait, where's that coming from? How's that possible? That makes no sense." - while (more or less) immersed, following the plot, even being in a hurry a bit due to the story (even if I knew there's no real urgency). And that never happened before.

I honestly think this being a direct sequel to the main story made me look more closely at it. While the main story in the base game isn't perfect, it holds together well, and doesn't require too much suspension of disbelief. So with this sequel, I was looking for the same cohesiveness and just not finding it. There's too much we just have to accept, and it doesn't make sense, particularly when the main quest gave us a pretty decisive victory over Mannimarco and the Worm Cult. So the fact that they're back, in great force, and with great power, and no one noticed, makes me skeptical from the start. They could have salvaged that with some well-written lore explanations, but all we got was "Mannimarco planned for this" and "Wormblood exists". It's a lot to just say, "Ok, sure," to.

A bit of a side note, or an observation of recent. Just noticed how all the people I know who are really into TES aren't anymore interested in zenimax stories for awhile now, but interestingly ones who are into it are just regular fiction fans or people who played Skyrim a bit, like this relaxing fantasy novels (yes, I also never heard of them previously, apparently it's a genre goldmine nowadays) or are just tired of complexity overall, be it life or entertainment. Probably the devs do actively aware of this and are aiming at the population.

metheglyn wrote: »

I honestly think this being a direct sequel to the main story made me look more closely at it. While the main story in the base game isn't perfect, it holds together well, and doesn't require too much suspension of disbelief. So with this sequel, I was looking for the same cohesiveness and just not finding it. There's too much we just have to accept, and it doesn't make sense, particularly when the main quest gave us a pretty decisive victory over Mannimarco and the Worm Cult. So the fact that they're back, in great force, and with great power, and no one noticed, makes me skeptical from the start. They could have salvaged that with some well-written lore explanations, but all we got was "Mannimarco planned for this" and "Wormblood exists". It's a lot to just say, "Ok, sure," to.

Exactly. I see they put so much care into designing places, assets and scripted scenes in the main quest, I'd just wish I'd get the impression that the stories were written with the same care and love for the lore of TES. I'm not saying they don't try - but to me it feels like there's a quality difference between the stories and dialogues - and things like world design, including landscape, towns, furnishings, etc. And the biggest question to me is: Why is that?

Although this time I really think one huge problem might have been that scenes were redesigned at some point, or the plot was changed, and then things didn't fit anymore?! At least there are several situations, to take that as the most obvious example, where characters tell you to look for whatever (e.g. the sea), while being at a place (e.g. a building interior) where this thing can't be seen. To me this does look like the whole scene was moved to a different place than it was intended for in earlier planning.

I actually think this could also be a reason for the many logic problems with the ending of Part 1. We see in the trailer that...

colossalvoids wrote: »

A bit of a side note, or an observation of recent. Just noticed how all the people I know who are really into TES aren't anymore interested in zenimax stories for awhile now, but interestingly ones who are into it are just regular fiction fans or people who played Skyrim a bit, like this relaxing fantasy novels (yes, I also never heard of them previously, apparently it's a genre goldmine nowadays) or are just tired of complexity overall, be it life or entertainment. Probably the devs do actively aware of this and are aiming at the population.

Really? I think I never saw anyone lauding ESO's writing for a few years now, to be honest. People emphasizing that the stories and quests should be thought of as the strong and unique point for ESO, since TES lore has lots of fans and it's generally a strong franchise - yes, of course; but usually it's connected with an appeal to focus on good writing because of that, to show more care to it. Most people I know see the years between Morrowind and Summerset as peak quality in terms of writing, some also enjoyed Greymoor, but there seems to be a general consensus that the writing declined from that point on, with High Isle being... well. But are there really so many players who like the more recent stories? Maybe I should check social media more often.

It's a little strange, by the way; I just realized lately that Summerset is 7 years ago now. I'm also one of the people who found the writing of those times to have been the peak - but even though everything that came after that was not as good, I'm still here... and still hoping that the writing would improve again. I guess I'm horribly optimistic

Syldras wrote: »

metheglyn wrote: »

I honestly think this being a direct sequel to the main story made me look more closely at it. While the main story in the base game isn't perfect, it holds together well, and doesn't require too much suspension of disbelief. So with this sequel, I was looking for the same cohesiveness and just not finding it. There's too much we just have to accept, and it doesn't make sense, particularly when the main quest gave us a pretty decisive victory over Mannimarco and the Worm Cult. So the fact that they're back, in great force, and with great power, and no one noticed, makes me skeptical from the start. They could have salvaged that with some well-written lore explanations, but all we got was "Mannimarco planned for this" and "Wormblood exists". It's a lot to just say, "Ok, sure," to.

Exactly. I see they put so much care into designing places, assets and scripted scenes in the main quest, I'd just wish I'd get the impression that the stories were written with the same care and love for the lore of TES. I'm not saying they don't try - but to me it feels like there's a quality difference between the stories and dialogues - and things like world design, including landscape, towns, furnishings, etc. And the biggest question to me is: Why is that?

Although this time I really think one huge problem might have been that scenes were redesigned at some point, or the plot was changed, and then things didn't fit anymore?! At least there are several situations, to take that as the most obvious example, where characters tell you to look for whatever (e.g. the sea), while being at a place (e.g. a building interior) where this thing can't be seen. To me this does look like the whole scene was moved to a different place than it was intended for in earlier planning.

I actually think this could also be a reason for the many logic problems with the ending of Part 1. We see in the trailer that...

Mannimarco's resurrection takes place in the mine. And while it's not absolutely sure, I think it's possible that this might hint at that was their earlier plan for the story (the scene might have remained in the trailer because that thing was already produced or takes longer to make, or whatever). And there, it would have caused less problems, to explain how the sarcophagus got there, etc - even if it's a bit silly to imagine it having been transported on that little boat nearby, but well, it's not as unlogical as what we finally saw in the Colored Rooms. So I think it's possible that at some point they got the idea they want the Colored Rooms put into the story, including returning fan favorite Darien, so they just pushed the final scene to that location - and that's it. No bigger explanations of why and how some of the things we saw there could even work out.

To be honest, even the mine as a location was a little weird, from my point of view. Also seemed rather arbitrary. If I had been tasked to write the story, I'd have made Mannimarco Corelanya, had made up some connection between Worm Cultists and a part of the family who might have not fully given up necromancy or at least tolerates it, so after Mannimarco's death, Worm Cultists would have brought his remains to that family, and they would have laid him to rest in their family crypt, inobtrusively, maybe even under some different name. So if one wants Corelanya lore and Solstice in this story, it could have been done like that. And then just have great-nephew Wormblood find out about an artefact to possibly bring great-uncle Mannimarco back, whom he had read about and always been fascinated with. Or something like that. Of course that wouldn't be as imposing as cultists teleporting a huge sarcophagus into a daedric realm, but it would certainly have been more believable.

Some last-minute rewrites or restaging of parts of the main quest certainly could account for some of the awkward moments. I wonder, too, if the quests have a shorter lead time than some of the other aspects of the game, because it's not just that they have to be written, they also have to be recorded, and then you're working not just with the timeline of the writers, but also the schedules of the voice actors. And every line being voice acted probably makes it harder to change later on if the need arises.