Because subclassing basically is giving up some things to gain something else in an effort to specialize in a role. If pure classes could perform on the same level as a specialized subclass but without giving up anything, that wouldn’t be balanced and also would destroy the entire point of subclassing.

Stx wrote: »

Because subclassing basically is giving up some things to gain something else in an effort to specialize in a role. If pure classes could perform on the same level as a specialized subclass but without giving up anything, that wouldn’t be balanced and also would destroy the entire point of subclassing.

To be truthful, I'm not sure what the point of subclassing is at all.

ZOS has spent the past couple years trying to emphasize distinct class identities, and this flies completely in the face of that. It's... befuddling. Such a radical change in direction.

Personally, I'm not at all thrilled. While I've peaced out of these forums and most social media tied to this game (oh, you belong here... as long as you say the exact right things and march to the approved drumbeat), I still play the game itself more than I should and have built one of each class at this point. Each has its own distinctive aesthetics, motifs, and gimmicks. They're all special lil' unicorns, more or less. I like my boys and girls quite a lot and find playing them enjoyable...

... but I'd be dramatically gimping my dps if I didn't subclass. If I want to compete with the numbers that franken-builds are churning out, I HAVE to engage with this system. If I don't want to be left in the dust by new encounters specifically tuned with subclassing in mind, I HAVE to dump some of my core class-defining trees. My necromancer has to dump two trees for assassin and herald. My dragonknight has to dump two trees for assassin and gravelord. All my characters are going to go from clear, distinct archetypes to backstabbing, zombie-loving, book-laser mutants. It's monotonous and dull.

Oh sure, that's always been the endgame in terms of gear. "5 pieces pillar of nirn, 5 pieces whorling depths, two pieces of the flavor-of-the-update monster set." But now it's a step beyond. Now you have to be a pastiche of abilities with wildly different aesthetics, and forego the class identity that ZOS encouraged you towards.

Not a fan. If the point of subclassing was to give more player choice, it ultimately won't. Most combinations will be sub-par and theorycrafters will datamine the optimal load-outs soon enough. We'll wind up with a small litany of mutants, and pure class builds will be relegated to the scrub-tier "guess you like role-playing at the expense of performance" bin. If the point was to spice things up, again... all my charcters will wind up running the same few trees for optimal dps, and that's the least spicy thing ever. If the point was to streamline balancing skills and abilities, nope. Balancing will be even worse now, and nerfing skill tree X because it's too favored by meta builds will just cripple anyone foolish enough to be playing the class they picked in the first place (can't wait to see Gravelord and Assassination gutted, only to be told to take Herald if I want to dps on my necro and nightblade). If the point was to take a decade old system and cast into chaos for a few years... well, okay. Mission accomplished.

Bleh. In the short run, this is going to be miserable. In the long run, I imagine we'll all endure an endless litany of nerfs and barbarisms until ZOS walks some of this back. "Here, we'll give you passive bonus X for having two core-class trees and X + Y for having three core-class trees. People who abandon both their utility skill trees for two additional dps skill trees should have a dps edge over people who don't... but not to such an extent as to invalidate pure-class builds. The goal was to foster increased choice, not to force you into subclassing lest you suck. Our bad."

That'll be update 49.

edit addition: and oy vey, the nerfs. Subclassing isn't even fully born yet and already we're getting dramatic nerfs so that skill tree combination XYZ isn't too powerful. Which is great for pure class builds, isn't it? We're nerfing your dps skill tree because it's too powerful when combined with two other dps skill trees and people are picking it too often in the subclass menu. TOUGH LUCK. You're now objectively worse off because of this new system, but don't worry... you can claw back some of your lost performance by abandoning your class identity for backstabbing and exploding skeletons. Happy Summer! Ugh.

edit add add: fixed some typos. Well, ghosting off the forums again. See you in December.

jerrodbuffington wrote: »

I held hope that something would change and we'd be able to keep our pure class toons and still be competitive. But this is not the case. Why cant they be balanced to where its a matter of preference rather than a fomo? I like doing score runs for trials and arenas, but I dont want to be bound to an arcanist beam to be competitive. Any insight i may he missing is appreciated.

would you prefer that a class that now sucks, can't perform better with subclassing?

"Pure classes" have too much useless stuff you aren't using on your builds. Sometimes it's entire trees. I don't believe there should be a balance between these two.

Current implementation isn't ideal of course (I believe further nerfs are needed), but it's better than having too much stuff you'll never use in your kit.

OP. Because of bad design. There is no reason that any of the core classses, that we all paid to play years ago, or even more recently should be at a disadvantage because someone intends to play out their class fantasy.

This issue lies solely in ZOS hands and IMO its a massive mistake.

Stx wrote: »

Because subclassing basically is giving up some things to gain something else in an effort to specialize in a role. If pure classes could perform on the same level as a specialized subclass but without giving up anything, that wouldn’t be balanced and also would destroy the entire point of subclassing.

Arcanist (and I think warden and necro) uses 1 skill line for damage. I use arcanist and the second 2 skill lines are kinda useless. All I need is inspired scholarship, flail, and beam. Add some guild skills and you have it. Since those other 2 skill lines are better split between dps, tank and heals, what does a dps give up to gain 2 damage skill lines? The original classes have dps skills spread out. They lose utility and damage to gain damage.

Im open to being wrong about that. Just something I was thinking when looking thru templar skills last night.

Every tank is a DK
Every offtank is a NECRO
Both of them have to be NORD as a race
You have to get a healer WARDEN and both healer have to be breton or high elf. No DK helaer

Frankly speaking there is already not a big variability in competitive group. There will be always what is "meta".
Is the gap too big between meta and not meta with multiclassing? Give them time to prepare a patch, it's not that big of a deal.

Is the paradox of giving player maximun choice. If all palyer have access to all choices most of them will make the same choices because they perform better. If u think this is a problem then the only solution is to give the same result for all configuration of choices making all configuration perform the same that make choosing less of a thing and balancing the system a nightmare.
The only problem is if the meta has too much difference with the non meta, problem that can be addressed with patches after launch.

To answer the op simply because subclassed builds are specialized in one of 3 areas either dps tank or heals while pure classes have skills both active and passive branching in all 3 areas.

Now another concern I’ve seen people worry about is class identity let me use my main class as an example DK the dot class with subclassing I can further boost my dots both applied by skills and status effects above and beyond what I could staying purely with dk skills. What this means is my class identity isn’t dead it’s expanded by specializing my toolkit both active and passive skills

Soarora wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Because subclassing basically is giving up some things to gain something else in an effort to specialize in a role. If pure classes could perform on the same level as a specialized subclass but without giving up anything, that wouldn’t be balanced and also would destroy the entire point of subclassing.

Yeah sure, if DPS become squishier to make up for it then maybe I'd see your argument... but they're not. If a DPS needs a heal, they slot echoing vigor. Also, subclassing affects more than just DPS. Tanks are NOT going to take 3 tank lines. They're going to take the lines that let the group force as many buffs as possible into the group composition. That means taking DPS (like Sorc) and HEALING (like Nightblade) lines. You're not losing anything as a tank by doing this because you're used to 1 tank line to begin with (and now you can probably even get rid of that one in various circumstances) and the warden healer can give you major resolve. You're not losing anything but class identity and you're gaining insane damage (mind you, the 160k parses are on trial dummies and do not reflect the increase in buffs from tanks and healers in-content).

madmufffin wrote: »

You can complete all the content in the game as a pure class. That's not going to change. If you want to continue to play that you can. Yes you're not going to get into a scorepush group or might struggle for a trifecta prog, but your ability to play all of the content in the game isn't hindered at all. People are acting like pure classes got nerfed in this process when in fact almost every single pure class got a buff to it's primary kit (RIP Sorc mains).

This is true and I think a lot of people are overestimating the effects of pure class. But for someone who's been striving to become better and better, theorycrafting just got WAY more complicated and I'm being forced to make the ultimate choice between roleplay and function. It may be silly, but I didn't really like tanking until my sorc both because I didn't like the other builds but also because of character synergy. The other two weren't really tank-like in personality. Changes tend to be brushed off as "it'll only affect the scorepushers", but as someone who wanted to get there one day, I feel like that dream has slipped away. That said, I'll mention again, subclassing doesn't mean I won't, I might have the spark again and do whatever it takes to get there... or I might not. Time will tell. I'm still very unhappy about it though. One of my favorite things is deciding what class to bring that's best for the content I'm doing because each class brings something different to the table. Now? Not so much...

Demalb16_ESO wrote: »

Every tank is a DK
Every offtank is a NECRO
Both of them have to be NORD as a race
You have to get a healer WARDEN and both healer have to be breton or high elf. No DK helaer

Frankly speaking there is already not a big variability in competitive group. There will be always what is "meta".
Is the gap too big between meta and not meta with multiclassing? Give them time to prepare a patch, it's not that big of a deal.

Is the paradox of giving player maximun choice. If all palyer have access to all choices most of them will make the same choices because they perform better. If u think this is a problem then the only solution is to give the same result for all configuration of choices making all configuration perform the same that make choosing less of a thing and balancing the system a nightmare.
The only problem is if the meta has too much difference with the non meta, problem that can be addressed with patches after launch.

Every tank main tank is preferably a DK, sorc, necromancer, sometimes arcanist or warden.
Every offtank is a NECRO or a sorc, sometimes DK.
Both of them have to be NORD as a race race doesn't matter, I've been told there's even some scorepushers that run "off" races and they're doing great.
You have to get a healer WARDEN and both healer have to be breton or high elf. No DK helaer race still doesn't matter and DK healers are objectively bad just like how templar tanks are objectively bad (we do not have a health-scaling heal nor have useful group buffs... yayyy...)... BUT I have cleared vSS HM with someone running a DK healer. We didn't actually have a warden healer for that run... and I ran warden DPS. I was the only warden.

The variability will be that you have to subclass into different lines depending on the content, most likely.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Same reason you cant wear no armor, because its your gaming fantasy to go natural, and ask to compete with people that do wear armor.

Playing a class you chose when you bought the game is absolutely nothing like foregoing essential things like armour, like what is this even supposed to mean?

Thumbless isn't saying you shouldn't be able to play the pure class you started as; they're saying that the power gap between pure classes and subclasses is so large that if you want to compete at the top end of score pushing, achievement runs, etc., then you will need to subclass, because your competition in that field will be subclassed.

Subclassing shouldn't be flat out stronger than pure classes, but it is. That's the world we live in now.

That doesn't mean you won't be able to play a pure class, nor does it mean you should subclass. The only time subclassing will be "mandatory" is if you wanna compete against the top players in PvP or if you wanna push leaderboards in PvE.

No one wants to be punished for the very basic and fundamental RPG step of choosing a class. The fact that people are comparing choosing pure classes to REMOVING ARMOUR should tell you exactly why players are upset about this unprecedented power gap.

And no, it's not just about the top 1% of content, it's every time you group up. Every time you're playing with other players, you're expected to pull your weight.

So we get it, play something we hate, or be ineffective. That is not what TES, or any RPG, is about.

All of these complaints are nothing more than hair splitting. It's fine for this or that but not class... class is special...

No.

It's not.

If it is then my desire to run Adept Rider is special and I should be as strong with that as with any other armor in the game.

My desire to run nord and get flame resist and speed and pen and recovery should be addressed by making all races exactly the same.

Race is fundemental...

Armor is fundemental.

Class is not special.

I want to rin resto staff and get maul level pen and two handed passives.... NO

Decisions matter. Now you have another decision to make.

I don't know why you keep going on about adept rider, it's not even a proc set. It does not affect your gameplay in any way and switching it out for ansuul or deadly or runecarver would not change how you play at all. It also doesn't require grinding skill points and exp and require gold and a respec shrine to switch out. Playing an arcanist is fundamentally different than playing a DK. Arcanist has a slow, ranged, AOE rotation. DK is faster and melee. Now imagine someone who's been a DK main for several years, almost always playing DK and thus ending up as a support DK in runs. Now tell them they have to subclass into arcanist and run fatecarver. Is their build anywhere close to what it was? No.
Now, realistically, how many people will be so extreme as to not let a good player in because they don't want to subclass? I'd guess not too many since the content is completable without subclassing. But it will cause drama for sure, and the trickle-down effect means mid-tier players might not actually know how to play with people not subclassed a certain way.

If you don't get the point by now I'm not sure you ever will.

Dk doesn't have to do anything. It's a choice. I mean, do you really not get it? Or are you being disingenuous?

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

It’s only a choice until you want to do any vet HM or trifecta content and then it’s not a choice.

You dealing less damage and not having access to Crit and pen buffs makes it more difficult and a worse experience for everyone.

If you wanna do real content than respect your teammates and bring the best stuff

SAME THING APLLIES TO ALL CHOICES.

Running ADEPT RIDER is a CHOICE. I want to do vet hard mode while running that as much as you do while running your pure bred class.

I cant make this any simpler. You can either choose to nerf yourself because of your gameplay fantasy, WHATEVER THAT MAY BE, PURE DK OR HORSEBACK RIDER, or you can choose to not to nerf yourself and play meta.

You choose to play the way you want. Those choices have consequences.

Soarora wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Because subclassing basically is giving up some things to gain something else in an effort to specialize in a role. If pure classes could perform on the same level as a specialized subclass but without giving up anything, that wouldn’t be balanced and also would destroy the entire point of subclassing.

Yeah sure, if DPS become squishier to make up for it then maybe I'd see your argument... but they're not. If a DPS needs a heal, they slot echoing vigor. Also, subclassing affects more than just DPS. Tanks are NOT going to take 3 tank lines. They're going to take the lines that let the group force as many buffs as possible into the group composition. That means taking DPS (like Sorc) and HEALING (like Nightblade) lines. You're not losing anything as a tank by doing this because you're used to 1 tank line to begin with (and now you can probably even get rid of that one in various circumstances) and the warden healer can give you major resolve. You're not losing anything but class identity and you're gaining insane damage (mind you, the 160k parses are on trial dummies and do not reflect the increase in buffs from tanks and healers in-content).

madmufffin wrote: »

You can complete all the content in the game as a pure class. That's not going to change. If you want to continue to play that you can. Yes you're not going to get into a scorepush group or might struggle for a trifecta prog, but your ability to play all of the content in the game isn't hindered at all. People are acting like pure classes got nerfed in this process when in fact almost every single pure class got a buff to it's primary kit (RIP Sorc mains).

This is true and I think a lot of people are overestimating the effects of pure class. But for someone who's been striving to become better and better, theorycrafting just got WAY more complicated and I'm being forced to make the ultimate choice between roleplay and function. It may be silly, but I didn't really like tanking until my sorc both because I didn't like the other builds but also because of character synergy. The other two weren't really tank-like in personality. Changes tend to be brushed off as "it'll only affect the scorepushers", but as someone who wanted to get there one day, I feel like that dream has slipped away. That said, I'll mention again, subclassing doesn't mean I won't, I might have the spark again and do whatever it takes to get there... or I might not. Time will tell. I'm still very unhappy about it though. One of my favorite things is deciding what class to bring that's best for the content I'm doing because each class brings something different to the table. Now? Not so much...

Demalb16_ESO wrote: »

Every tank is a DK
Every offtank is a NECRO
Both of them have to be NORD as a race
You have to get a healer WARDEN and both healer have to be breton or high elf. No DK helaer

Frankly speaking there is already not a big variability in competitive group. There will be always what is "meta".
Is the gap too big between meta and not meta with multiclassing? Give them time to prepare a patch, it's not that big of a deal.

Is the paradox of giving player maximun choice. If all palyer have access to all choices most of them will make the same choices because they perform better. If u think this is a problem then the only solution is to give the same result for all configuration of choices making all configuration perform the same that make choosing less of a thing and balancing the system a nightmare.
The only problem is if the meta has too much difference with the non meta, problem that can be addressed with patches after launch.

Every tank main tank is preferably a DK, sorc, necromancer, sometimes arcanist or warden.
Every offtank is a NECRO or a sorc, sometimes DK.
Both of them have to be NORD as a race race doesn't matter, I've been told there's even some scorepushers that run "off" races and they're doing great.
You have to get a healer WARDEN and both healer have to be breton or high elf. No DK helaer race still doesn't matter and DK healers are objectively bad just like how templar tanks are objectively bad (we do not have a health-scaling heal nor have useful group buffs... yayyy...)... BUT I have cleared vSS HM with someone running a DK healer. We didn't actually have a warden healer for that run... and I ran warden DPS. I was the only warden.

The variability will be that you have to subclass into different lines depending on the content, most likely.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Same reason you cant wear no armor, because its your gaming fantasy to go natural, and ask to compete with people that do wear armor.

Playing a class you chose when you bought the game is absolutely nothing like foregoing essential things like armour, like what is this even supposed to mean?

Thumbless isn't saying you shouldn't be able to play the pure class you started as; they're saying that the power gap between pure classes and subclasses is so large that if you want to compete at the top end of score pushing, achievement runs, etc., then you will need to subclass, because your competition in that field will be subclassed.

Subclassing shouldn't be flat out stronger than pure classes, but it is. That's the world we live in now.

That doesn't mean you won't be able to play a pure class, nor does it mean you should subclass. The only time subclassing will be "mandatory" is if you wanna compete against the top players in PvP or if you wanna push leaderboards in PvE.

No one wants to be punished for the very basic and fundamental RPG step of choosing a class. The fact that people are comparing choosing pure classes to REMOVING ARMOUR should tell you exactly why players are upset about this unprecedented power gap.

And no, it's not just about the top 1% of content, it's every time you group up. Every time you're playing with other players, you're expected to pull your weight.

So we get it, play something we hate, or be ineffective. That is not what TES, or any RPG, is about.

All of these complaints are nothing more than hair splitting. It's fine for this or that but not class... class is special...

No.

It's not.

If it is then my desire to run Adept Rider is special and I should be as strong with that as with any other armor in the game.

My desire to run nord and get flame resist and speed and pen and recovery should be addressed by making all races exactly the same.

Race is fundemental...

Armor is fundemental.

Class is not special.

I want to rin resto staff and get maul level pen and two handed passives.... NO

Decisions matter. Now you have another decision to make.

I don't know why you keep going on about adept rider, it's not even a proc set. It does not affect your gameplay in any way and switching it out for ansuul or deadly or runecarver would not change how you play at all. It also doesn't require grinding skill points and exp and require gold and a respec shrine to switch out. Playing an arcanist is fundamentally different than playing a DK. Arcanist has a slow, ranged, AOE rotation. DK is faster and melee. Now imagine someone who's been a DK main for several years, almost always playing DK and thus ending up as a support DK in runs. Now tell them they have to subclass into arcanist and run fatecarver. Is their build anywhere close to what it was? No.
Now, realistically, how many people will be so extreme as to not let a good player in because they don't want to subclass? I'd guess not too many since the content is completable without subclassing. But it will cause drama for sure, and the trickle-down effect means mid-tier players might not actually know how to play with people not subclassed a certain way.

If you don't get the point by now I'm not sure you ever will.

Dk doesn't have to do anything. It's a choice. I mean, do you really not get it? Or are you being disingenuous?

I'm not slow, I understand the point you're trying to make. I just don't think your point hits as hard as you think it does.

It's not meant to hit hard. It's meant to prove a point... and it does. Choices matter.

Demalb16_ESO wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Every tank main tank is preferably a DK, sorc, necromancer, sometimes arcanist or warden.
Every offtank is a NECRO or a sorc, sometimes DK.
Both of them have to be NORD as a race race doesn't matter, I've been told there's even some scorepushers that run "off" races and they're doing great.
You have to get a healer WARDEN and both healer have to be breton or high elf. No DK helaer race still doesn't matter and DK healers are objectively bad just like how templar tanks are objectively bad (we do not have a health-scaling heal nor have useful group buffs... yayyy...)... BUT I have cleared vSS HM with someone running a DK healer. We didn't actually have a warden healer for that run... and I ran warden DPS. I was the only warden.

The variability will be that you have to subclass into different lines depending on the content, most likely.

Every race/class can be a tank/dps/healer that clear Vet HM but if u play with a guild the coposition of tank and offtank are necro and DK. Sorc can have a little space (I play sorc off tank). The warden healer is mandatory. The nord race also is a must for tank in guilds. We are not talking about if u can clear a vHM we are talking about competitive game, those who want to use every bit of advantage to stay at the top of the game and enter the rankings. The fact that "some scorepushers that run "off" races and they're doing great" doen't chang what the majority does. And even if u play with pugs try to enter as a nightblade tank... they will kick u off in a matter of seconds.

I can’t confirm nor deny if the majority of scorepushers care about race. But it’s still accurate you don’t need to be a nord tank (imperial is also good) nor do you need to do cro/dk (sorc is META for SE and LC…). Pugs will not kick you for a nightblade tank… I once did a vSS with 3 healers. Never again.
Anyways, I may not be a scorepusher but I did Godslayer on sorc tank (MT/MT/OT) that’s a dark elf, no such thing as “all guilds require one specific composition and race”. My other tris were on cro tank but my cro is a breton. Bretons do make bad tank races (too much max mag) but it works fine enough for trifectas… soooo….

I agree with your point that BiS will be BiS and player choice is an illusion, I just disagree that it’s so restrictive that its impossible to have any choice. And I disagree with your generalizations. I do think subclassing will make it worse though, as rosters will be built around having an array of buffs, leading to dropping of sets, making it harder to run things “the old fashioned way” because of needing to find people who have those sets still.

BretonMage wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Race is fundemental...

Armor is fundemental.

Class is not special.

Of course class is fundamental. Class is far more impactful on how you play than race. Race just determines how you look (plus a few % points for your stats); class directly determines how you play, and influences all the combat you participate in.

Choices matter. Now you have more choices. Could have sworn i said this already though.