jerrodbuffington wrote: »

I held hope that something would change and we'd be able to keep our pure class toons and still be competitive. But this is not the case. Why cant they be balanced to where its a matter of preference rather than a fomo? I like doing score runs for trials and arenas, but I dont want to be bound to an arcanist beam to be competitive. Any insight i may he missing is appreciated.

The only way to make subclassing not super op is to nerf every skill line into oblivion… but that would also nerf pure classes into oblivion.

Every class being 1/3 dps tank healer means that dropping 2 out of 3 of your skill lines is always a damage increase bcs now you have 3 dps skill lines instead of 1

For DPS, personally I feel there is an over exageration on the effects of sub classing vs non sub classing. Theres going to be a few outliers like necro because their class is just broken full stop and needs help.

Your top 2% of dps players are going to solely subclass, but lets not kid ourselves here. These players in the "end game scenarios" where "pure classes can't compete" are already pigeon holed into x,y,z skills and gear. There's very little no variety already, cause its "meta". For everyone else, playing a pure class and being good at it is still going to put you in a better position than a subclass'd player playing average. Your core skills of having the right gear, weaving (depending on build), rotation and situational awareness and going to be more important to your success.

For Tanking and Healing, yeah its a bit different here and I think it's fair to say subclassed players in this box will do better than pure classes as they'll be able to bring more support and buffs to the table.

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

For DPS, personally I feel there is an over exageration on the effects of sub classing vs non sub classing. Theres going to be a few outliers like necro because their class is just broken full stop and needs help.

Your top 2% of dps players are going to solely subclass, but lets not kid ourselves here. These players in the "end game scenarios" where "pure classes can't compete" are already pigeon holed into x,y,z skills and gear. There's very little no variety already, cause its "meta". For everyone else, playing a pure class and being good at it is still going to put you in a better position than a subclass'd player playing average. Your core skills of having the right gear, weaving (depending on build), rotation and situational awareness and going to be more important to your success.

For Tanking and Healing, yeah its a bit different here and I think it's fair to say subclassed players in this box will do better than pure classes as they'll be able to bring more support and buffs to the table.

You may feel it’s an “Over exaggeration” on the part of dps but from my own testing as well as other people’s parses it’s actually about a 40 - 50% damage increase when using a subclassing build vs a pure class.

So no it is very much not an over exaggeration, subclassing is in a complete league of its own and pure classes are utterly useless compared to the top combinations

The difference between having 3 sets of dps passives is HUGE considering most of said passives give you the same if not more damage than most 5 pc sets do

Unfortunately Trial dummy parses are easy to manipulate to feed ones own bias, so we will see the "real" results when this goes live and how this affects the bottom 98%....

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Same reason you cant wear no armor, because its your gaming fantasy to go natural, and ask to compete with people that do wear armor.

That's extreme I know, but it applies to nuanced examples as well. You cant wear all item sets from fungal grotto and compete with people wearing dlc trial gear. Asking for fungal grotto sets to perform as well as trial sets because youre into some sort of fungal game play fantasy doesn't make sense. Same applies to pure classes. Just because youre into it doesn't mean it has to compete with meta. Play it because its fun.

Its not fun to be the bottom of the pool on cmx. It's also not fun to beam on every character. Beam has the best cleave, survivability, and single target.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Same reason you cant wear no armor, because its your gaming fantasy to go natural, and ask to compete with people that do wear armor.

Playing a class you chose when you bought the game is absolutely nothing like foregoing essential things like armour, like what is this even supposed to mean?

The thing is, every DD is going to have 3 skill lines of DPS passives.
Every tank 3 skill lines of Tanking passives.
And every healer 3 skill lines of healing passives.
These passives are often very oriented towards a certain role. Not like Mages or Fighters guild which have something for everyone. This will greatly improve the role of a character to a point you'd be trolling if you didn't optimize.

When the median DPS moves up, the expectations will move up. Same for tanks and healers. It could easily become meta for tanks to be completely self-sufficient. I believe this will alienate the "casual" or "non minmax" players even more.

What this update will do is an unbelievably large power creep across the board. And you can't simply increase difficulty of the content, because then it will be considerably harder for the "casuals". The gap between the minmaxers and "casuals" will be larger than ever.

Jaimeh wrote: »

jerrodbuffington wrote: »

I held hope that something would change and we'd be able to keep our pure class toons and still be competitive. But this is not the case. Why cant they be balanced to where its a matter of preference rather than a fomo? I like doing score runs for trials and arenas, but I dont want to be bound to an arcanist beam to be competitive. Any insight i may he missing is appreciated.

They could have altered the class-exclusive sets from IA (or even add a third set, though I'm sure players would bemoan the grind) so that it could make pure classes more competitive. It'd be such an easy addition, without messing up the balance of subclassed combos even more than it is.

Those sets aren’t taken off the table if you subclass, though. A cro can still use Corpseburster while trading out the two other lines, for example. A subclassed character can still use both of their class sets while giving away the third line.

In order to aid non-subclassed builds exclusively, i.e. while not also adding to the power of subclassed builds, that alteration would have to involve two major changes: 1) blocking subclassed builds from using them (or at least blocking them from any bonuses that might be added to them), and 2) making them competitive choices in terms of power or utility in the first place, while not imbalancing the original classes even more.

If class sets were blocked entirely, that would remove one of the three incentives left to choose a base class, leaving only class mastery and the requirement to keep one line. If they were blocked partially, it would lessen that incentive. That’s the easy part, comparatively.

The second is the much harder ask in an environment in which many sets (not just class ones) have languished for a long time in a place where they largely aren’t wanted or used due to being so weak. And there is an even bigger issue here in that class sets are not all aligned in terms of their roles. Making a class healing set competitive and then exclusively available (in part or in whole) to non-subclassed builds would not help a non-subclassed dps be competitive with a subclassed one. Vice versa for a healer faced with using a second set designed for dps. If classes with two great dps class sets were competitive with subclassed builds, then classes with only one would not be. It would imbalance the non-subclassed builds amongst themselves, at least without further major alterations (at minimum having the same number of class sets per role). With class sets being so powerful (in this hypothetical), classes with IA healing sets would have access to an incomparable advantage over classes without.

And we are talking about an enormous level of power to pack into a set or two. While an argument could be made that class sets might deserve this power more than other sets, most of these are proc sets, and it is frequently a pain point when sets are seen as playing the game for the players wearing them. Sets have never been meant to approach whole class lines in terms of power, so this would be a major shift that would make them something quite different than they are.

Could it be done to use class sets to help non-subclassed builds? Yes, theoretically. But I don’t think it would be easy in the context of the design choices that have already been made and the consequences they have.

NoSoup wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

NoSoup wrote: »

For DPS, personally I feel there is an over exageration on the effects of sub classing vs non sub classing. Theres going to be a few outliers like necro because their class is just broken full stop and needs help.

Your top 2% of dps players are going to solely subclass, but lets not kid ourselves here. These players in the "end game scenarios" where "pure classes can't compete" are already pigeon holed into x,y,z skills and gear. There's very little no variety already, cause its "meta". For everyone else, playing a pure class and being good at it is still going to put you in a better position than a subclass'd player playing average. Your core skills of having the right gear, weaving (depending on build), rotation and situational awareness and going to be more important to your success.

For Tanking and Healing, yeah its a bit different here and I think it's fair to say subclassed players in this box will do better than pure classes as they'll be able to bring more support and buffs to the table.

You may feel it’s an “Over exaggeration” on the part of dps but from my own testing as well as other people’s parses it’s actually about a 40 - 50% damage increase when using a subclassing build vs a pure class.

So no it is very much not an over exaggeration, subclassing is in a complete league of its own and pure classes are utterly useless compared to the top combinations

The difference between having 3 sets of dps passives is HUGE considering most of said passives give you the same if not more damage than most 5 pc sets do

Unfortunately Trial dummy parses are easy to manipulate to feed ones own bias, so we will see the "real" results when this goes live and how this affects the bottom 98%....

i can see the "real" results already.

you get the same 40 -50% damage increase if you just check the group damage of vet HM clears on pts and compare them with the group dps of clears on live

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Same reason you cant wear no armor, because its your gaming fantasy to go natural, and ask to compete with people that do wear armor.

Playing a class you chose when you bought the game is absolutely nothing like foregoing essential things like armour, like what is this even supposed to mean?

It's exactly the same thing. You... YOU make choices... class is a choice and now you are CHOOSING to play pure class. It is a CHOICE because it aligns with your gameplay fantasy.

People have to accept the consequences of their choices. It's that simple.

If you choose to wear no armor that is also a choice.

So if I want tonuse nightblade because I like nightblade skills. As it has been, I can be competitive. AFAIK solo arena scores are really close between classes. If I chose templar dps, I might lose a few percent to an arcanist. That seems reasonable. But if the gap is huge between a beam build then to be competitive we have to use beam.

I get some people dont care about competitive dps or scores. Thats is totally fine. I dont judge those people. But this game has had scores for as long as I can remember. It seems it is built in. It's something I enjoy. But I dont enjoy changing toons to get away from beaming, then have to use beam to keep up on other toons.

jerrodbuffington wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

BretonMage wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Same reason you cant wear no armor, because its your gaming fantasy to go natural, and ask to compete with people that do wear armor.

Playing a class you chose when you bought the game is absolutely nothing like foregoing essential things like armour, like what is this even supposed to mean?

It's exactly the same thing. You... YOU make choices... class is a choice and now you are CHOOSING to play pure class. It is a CHOICE because it aligns with your gameplay fantasy.

People have to accept the consequences of their choices. It's that simple.

If you choose to wear no armor that is also a choice.

So if I want tonuse nightblade because I like nightblade skills. As it has been, I can be competitive. AFAIK solo arena scores are really close between classes. If I chose templar dps, I might lose a few percent to an arcanist. That seems reasonable. But if the gap is huge between a beam build then to be competitive we have to use beam.

I get some people dont care about competitive dps or scores. Thats is totally fine. I dont judge those people. But this game has had scores for as long as I can remember. It seems it is built in. It's something I enjoy. But I dont enjoy changing toons to get away from beaming, then have to use beam to keep up on other toons.

And there will always be meta and off meta. Boiling the ocean down, the original request is to make everything, well, everything for everyone always. This doesn't make sense.

You either choose meta or don't. Up. To. You...

BretonMage wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Same reason you cant wear no armor, because its your gaming fantasy to go natural, and ask to compete with people that do wear armor.

Playing a class you chose when you bought the game is absolutely nothing like foregoing essential things like armour, like what is this even supposed to mean?

Thumbless isn't saying you shouldn't be able to play the pure class you started as; they're saying that the power gap between pure classes and subclasses is so large that if you want to compete at the top end of score pushing, achievement runs, etc., then you will need to subclass, because your competition in that field will be subclassed.

Subclassing shouldn't be flat out stronger than pure classes, but it is. That's the world we live in now.

That doesn't mean you won't be able to play a pure class, nor does it mean you should subclass. The only time subclassing will be "mandatory" is if you wanna compete against the top players in PvP or if you wanna push leaderboards in PvE.

SilverBride wrote: »

There is a difference between choosing not to chase the current meta to achieve top damage in group content and having our characters rendered substandard for not using subclassing. The only choice there is use subclassing or become a weakened version of what we once were.

Take out the word subclassing from your first sentence above and change it to any other thing, like armor, or a skill, or a race and you'll see my point very clear.

For example, "There is a difference between choosing not to chase the current meta to achieve top damage in pvp and having our characters rendered substandard for not using Magsorc and ward"

Or, "There is a difference between choosing not to chase the current meta to achieve top damage in group content and having our characters rendered substandard for not using relequen".

Or, "There is a difference between choosing not to chase the current meta to achieve top damage in pvp and having our characters rendered substandard for not using maras balm".

Two of these are pvp specific but the point is the same. Meta always changes. This is no different.

SilverBride wrote: »

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There is a difference between choosing not to chase the current meta to achieve top damage in group content and having our characters rendered substandard for not using subclassing. The only choice there is use subclassing or become a weakened version of what we once were.

Take out the word subclassing from your first sentence above and change it to any other thing, like armor, or a skill, or a race and you'll see my point very clear.

For example, "There is a difference between choosing not to chase the current meta to achieve top damage in pvp and having our characters rendered substandard for not using Magsorc and ward"

Or, "There is a difference between choosing not to chase the current meta to achieve top damage in group content and having our characters rendered substandard for not using relequen".

Or, "There is a difference between choosing not to chase the current meta to achieve top damage in pvp and having our characters rendered substandard for not using maras balm".

Two of these are pvp specific but the point is the same. Meta always changes. This is no different.

The difference between those examples and subclassing is that not using a particular set doesn't depend on the other sets being nerfed to make them weaker. But subclassing led to big nerfs of the current class skills, making pure classes a weaker version of what they were before. That is my biggest complaint with the whole thing.

I cant re-explain why it is the same thing over and over. Good luck Silver.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

jerrodbuffington wrote: »

I held hope that something would change and we'd be able to keep our pure class toons and still be competitive. But this is not the case. Why cant they be balanced to where its a matter of preference rather than a fomo? I like doing score runs for trials and arenas, but I dont want to be bound to an arcanist beam to be competitive. Any insight i may he missing is appreciated.

The only way to make subclassing not super op is to nerf every skill line into oblivion… but that would also nerf pure classes into oblivion.

Every class being 1/3 dps tank healer means that dropping 2 out of 3 of your skill lines is always a damage increase bcs now you have 3 dps skill lines instead of 1

Or making subclassing tank line for tank line, dps line for dps line, etc. Or half subclassed skills damage. Or only allow some skills to be subclassed. Or make it actual subclassing where the skill fits into your class fantasy. Or just don't include passives.

ZOS is very good at going halfway and being stubborn that halfway is the way to go. There's people who like subclassing but there's many who do not: here, and in discord, and in conversations.

Thumbless_Bot wrote: »

Same reason you cant wear no armor, because its your gaming fantasy to go natural, and ask to compete with people that do wear armor.

That's extreme I know, but it applies to nuanced examples as well. You cant wear all item sets from fungal grotto and compete with people wearing dlc trial gear. Asking for fungal grotto sets to perform as well as trial sets because youre into some sort of fungal game play fantasy doesn't make sense. Same applies to pure classes. Just because youre into it doesn't mean it has to compete with meta. Play it because its fun.

ZOS is fundamentally changing the game from how it has been for the last 10 years. It's not the same as insisting fungal grotto 1 armor is something to wear for mindmender. It's people who want to play their characters as they have been for many years now not being able to compete when they were perfectly able to before. My meta arcanist for instance, is an arcanist. Not a necromancer. Not a templar. An arcanist who now is able to compete perfectly well but will no longer be able to.

This is literally every patch. Gear changes, class skills change, dots change, hots change. The logic is both valid and sound. If you are into horse riding fantasy wearing adept rider, that might have been meta in 1983, but it is not any more. So either adapt or be not meta. That's your choice. Carving out some special place because its class as a whole is your mind trying to rationalize your specific dilemma.

Changing gear is nowhere near changing your entire rotation and making all your characters play the same as a thematic nightmare. You can say I’m “carving out some special place” but I have a right to my opinion. I was able to balance being meta and being roleplay friendly and now I can’t and have to choose between trying to be the best or my character/build identity. This is the exact opposite of what subclassing intended for the “elder scrolls crowd”. I can and will complain all I want, I know realistically it’s sink or swim and I’m prepared to never get another trial hm/trifecta again and never scorepush a single thing if it comes down to that. But I wish it didn’t have to come down to that.
And who knows, maybe I will sacrifice my roleplay fantasy for utility, I’m not a stranger to doing so. But it shouldnt have to be such an extreme choice, especially because I’m a support main so all personal choice goes out the window in exchange for buffs. I’m never subclassing into dk tank (because I hate playing dk), mark my words!!!

If you are handling the PVE content you are playing today, Subclassing is not going to take that away if you stay Pure to Class. You will be just like you are now.

What will matter are the more advanced trials and dungeons. It maybe harder to compete for those group slots if you are a DPS player without subclassing. Maybe it wont be all that much different. Even then, I bet Pure Class will be a viable way to go for some trial groups. Remember, to get the most out of Class Skills, you need to invest in the Passives for that Class. At double skill points, you are looking at about 24 just for each class, then the skills you will choose.

PVP will be interesting.