Pros and Cons of Subclassing

ZhuJiuyin · May 30

Subclassing has been the focus of attention and the source of much controversy in this PTS cycle.
But it seems that many people have some strange fantasies or prejudices about subclassing, rather than testing it in person on PTS. Of course, if you are not a PC player, it is understandable that you cannot go to PTS in person. But some people who do not go to PTS in person, but continue to loudly promote the pros (or cons) of subclassing, are not advisable.
I have tested it on PTS for more than 100 hours. The following is my summary of the pros and cons of subclassing. There may be some subjective opinions, but overall, I think it is a sufficiently neutral analysis.

First, the pros:

1. The biggest advantage of subclassing is that it really opens the door to theoretical construction, allowing many interesting constructions to be realized. I can even use Templar/Necro/NB and Wrathsun to get a 120Kup practical build (Wrathsun + Null Arca, in 21M Training Dummies), which includes 60% aoe damage, powerful executions, and good resource maintenance. Magicka will not be exhausted due to the negative effects of Wrathsun.

2. Specialization, discarding useless skill lines can indeed make your character more specialized, increase dps, make tanks more survivable, and allow healers to cause more treatment. For novice players, discarding Green Balance in exchange for other damage lines to create a dps build is obviously a more intuitive way.

3. Free, subclassing is part of the base game. I thought subclassing would be locked behind a paywall, but surprisingly, subclassing was included in the base game update, which is a good thing for everyone.

Next, let's talk about the disadvantages, which may also be what many people who advocate subclassing don't want to hear.

1. Potential homogeneity/imbalance between skill lines. Some people will definitely say, didn't you just say that subclassing provides more theoretical constructions? How can you say that subclassing will cause homogeneity? Of course, this seems contradictory, but it is not. Subclassing does provide more possible theoretical constructions, but for the metadata, especially the PVE end-game of hm, trifecta, best scoring, etc., there is a risk of reduced diversity in the metadata, because the best build will become more clear. If you don't combine a few specific skill lines, you may lag behind the best build by 10-20%, or even more extreme, 30%. This is caused by the imbalance between skill lines. Some skill lines provide too much power, resulting in you falling behind other players if you don't choose that line. For example, Assassination is currently in almost all top builds.
The imbalance of the skill line has caused many skill lines that were originally useful for pure classes, such as Dark Magic, Draconic Power, etc., to be replaced if you want to build a damage build, because except for 1 or 2 skills, the other abilities are useless or weak. But we all know that Crystal and Burning Talons are the iconic skills of Sorc and DK, but because they are in the wrong skill line, we may rarely see Crystal and Burning Talons in the future.
And the patchnotes-v11.0.0 "Those who do not wish to interact with the pet gameplay can now replace this skill line as a whole." has aroused much indignation from players, because it implies the mandatory nature of subclassing, because without subclassing, the pure class will not be able to play smoothly, and also shows an attitude towards balance, that is, "Those who don't like XX can replace it with XX", which will be interpreted as "Those who don't like ESO can now play XX".
In addition, v11.0.0 developer notes, which state that "Many abilities were originally designed to be "outliers", to enable a class to stand toe to toe with others in certain aspects." & "This patch focuses on trying to bring into line many of those abilities, while also reinforcing the core themes of a skill line."
But in this PTS cycle, we have only seen many skills/skill lines being changed to true "outliers", such as Assassination, which gains a large number of Crit buffs, Grim, which allows stacking up to 10 times and fires twice Focus. The so-called core themes, such as Crystal and Burning Talons, are almost extinct.
If the previous diversity is similar to a trapezoid, although the metadata is small, there are still some distinctions. The diversity of U46 is similar to a prism, with very little metadata, but the data of the middle level has increased significantly. In order to curb the expansion of the power of subclassing, many skill lines have to be nerfed for balance. But at the same time, some skill lines have received unexpected buffs, such as Assassination. Under this kind of increase and decrease, the top metadata will become more homogenized, and many pure classes will also be severely hit.

2. The lack of sufficient interaction between skills makes many construction theories difficult to implement. Due to the relationship between skill mechanisms, the interaction between many skill lines is very poor, such as the corpse mechanism of Necro. Since other skill lines do not provide corpses, this mechanism has poor interaction with other lines. In addition, the corpse time of Necro is also shortened, and there can only be 5 corpses/pets in the PVP area. If it exceeds, your related skills will be invalid. This has been mentioned many times in PTS, but it has not been improved yet.
Or Sorc pets, for those who don't know, Daedric Prey was nerfed, and will only enhance sorc pets in the future, not pets from other sources. This further limits the ability of Daedric Summoning to interact with other skill lines, and even proc pets.

3. High cost, because subclassed skill lines require double skill points and experience, and you must have multiple max-level classes, subclassing is expensive and time-consuming for players who have just joined the game. As mentioned earlier, unbalanced skill lines and not subclassing can lead to falling behind others, which makes it more difficult for new players to catch up with the current progress, and the high cost and time investment may discourage new players.

Personally, I am not against subclassing, but the current poor balance and lack of interaction between skills do cast a shadow on subclassing.

SwimsWithMemes · May 30

You should add 4., the problem of balancing & class restriction

Consider the class who has Tree A (native), Tree B (class 2), Tree C (class 3).

Consider the power gamer. Let us assume that 1 particular build will probably be strongest, or maybe 2 or 3. The strongest build could be A, B, C as above. Now let's assume that A is the real outlier skill and gets nerfed, or is just problematic with B and C. Most classes have 1 primary damage skill tree. So if this is your native class, you might want to swap Tree A for Tree D (class 4). Except, you can only swap B or C! You will be playing a lottery of skills. All classes will have B and C, but if your core class Tree A gets nerfed to be less optimal than D, you are boned. Class 2 and Class 3 are just going to be the best of the bunch.

Consider the flavour character. If you are a pure class A1, A2, A3 and A1 is an outlier, it gets nerfed and you have no compensation. You can't sub into D without breaking the fantasy of your character.

fizzylu · May 30

SwimsWithMemes wrote: »

You can't sub into D without breaking the fantasy of your character.

Which is funny since the original "class fantasy" will already be broken anyway. I feel like they might as well just throw classes to the wind and make all skill lines accessible at all times, but it's also like they don't want to fully admit that maybe classes were a bad idea to begin with. And with classes like arcanist on the table and one bar builds, it's entirely possible to not even use the one remaining class skill line except for the passive effects.

Heronisan · May 30

I also have a problem with the thought that this system brings more class identity and lets u create "new classes", i seen many examples, someone say they can now create a "death knight" and so on.

I would say these classes are only made up in their own mind, another player can create the exact same combo of skill lines and not identify with death knight at all.

And no one, and i mean NO ONE will be able to look at ur character and know "oh this guy is a elementalist or whatever u feel like ur character is now" , because there is no system to see anything other then ur base class.

And even if there was a system you wouldnt be able to tell class, 2 players use the 3 same skill lines, but the skills they put on their bar make them identify as 2 different "classes"

I would like someone to join a pug 12 man trial, and tell me the classes in that group after zoning into the trial.

U cant even tell if someone is a pure class anymore either. Since no one can tell what class you are playing, class identity is 100% dead with this. The class identity is now what that exact player feel like his class is.

U see a templar , suddenly a green kamehameha shoot out of his ass, then a necro pet pops up, what the hell class is this now? Cracking the davinci code is easier then trying to figure it out

Rungar · May 30

Heronisan wrote: »

I also have a problem with the thought that this system brings more class identity and lets u create "new classes", i seen many examples, someone say they can now create a "death knight" and so on.

I would say these classes are only made up in their own mind, another player can create the exact same combo of skill lines and not identify with death knight at all.

And no one, and i mean NO ONE will be able to look at ur character and know "oh this guy is a elementalist or whatever u feel like ur character is now" , because there is no system to see anything other then ur base class.

And even if there was a system you wouldnt be able to tell class, 2 players use the 3 same skill lines, but the skills they put on their bar make them identify as 2 different "classes"

I would like someone to join a pug 12 man trial, and tell me the classes in that group after zoning into the trial.

U cant even tell if someone is a pure class anymore either. So class identity is 100% dead with this. The class identity is now what that exact player feel like his class is.

U see a templar , suddenly a green kamehameha shoot out of his ass, then a necro pet pops up, what the hell class is this now? Cracking the davinci code is easier then trying to figure it out

theres actually an easy solution to this using rgb and class colors. Assign an ability color for each class skill line and mix the three you have chosen. Each aura will be unique and it can give you a glimpse to what the player is all about. I imagine its easy to implement since they already can do this and it will make players feel like it really is a new class rather than an abomination of skills.

ADarklore · May 30

I think people are forgetting that 'classes' were only a thing because it's a hold-over from when they expected ESO to be a 'traditional' group-oriented MMO... and when that idea failed... they shifted to One Tamriel but kept the class system in place. I think there was a lot of confusion at that time as to the actual direction the game would go- because at that point you still had a high number of PvP and Endgame players as well. Over time, as solo players became the majority, and as they saw that many of those players left due to not being able to play ESO like previous Elder Scrolls games that didn't have classes- and heard all the complaints about lack of freedom to 'play as we want'- they finally opted to give us the option to 'create our own class' in a manner of speaking. I think something is embedded in the game coding that would make it impossible to remove classes altogether- so they are making the most of what they have to work with.

So with that, players need to let go of the whole 'class' concept because it really no longer fits the future of this game. Classes are an outdated concept that should have been removed with One Tamriel, and clearly with subclassing, the devs no longer see 'classes' as a concept as being relevant.

licenturion · May 30

I mentioned this in another thread as well, but it's worth repeating.

At this point, people should really start looking ahead. Most of these ongoing debates aren’t moving the needle anymore and tend to overlook the simple reality: subclassing is going live for everyone in just a few days.

The meaningful conversations will begin once it's actually in the game—when the new meta starts to form and players uncover overpowered combinations that need balancing. Then ZOS can also start gathering telemetry to see what needs to be addressed first.

The subclassing cat is already out of the bag. These current discussions have about as much impact on the game as debating the pros and cons of OneTamriel at this stage—basically none.

fizzybeef · May 30

ADarklore wrote: »

Over time, as solo players became the majority, and as they saw that many of those players left due to not being able to play ESO like previous Elder Scrolls games that didn't have classes- and heard all the complaints about lack of freedom to 'play as we want'- they finally opted to give us the option to 'create our own class' in a manner of speaking.

This is just wrong. Its a mmo and most people are playing it as an mmo. The solo players are the minority. Glad you‘re pleased by subclassing but please dont make it out like everyone being strictly a pve questler, because thats not the case.

amiiegee · May 30

ADarklore wrote: »

I think people are forgetting that 'classes' were only a thing because it's a hold-over from when they expected ESO to be a 'traditional' group-oriented MMO... and when that idea failed... they shifted to One Tamriel but kept the class system in place. I think there was a lot of confusion at that time as to the actual direction the game would go- because at that point you still had a high number of PvP and Endgame players as well. Over time, as solo players became the majority, and as they saw that many of those players left due to not being able to play ESO like previous Elder Scrolls games that didn't have classes- and heard all the complaints about lack of freedom to 'play as we want'- they finally opted to give us the option to 'create our own class' in a manner of speaking. I think something is embedded in the game coding that would make it impossible to remove classes altogether- so they are making the most of what they have to work with.

So with that, players need to let go of the whole 'class' concept because it really no longer fits the future of this game. Classes are an outdated concept that should have been removed with One Tamriel, and clearly with subclassing, the devs no longer see 'classes' as a concept as being relevant.

I dont know if you‘re trolling at this point but if you do, its a good one! 😁

People are leaving because of patches like this, i know quite a lot who announced to be gone when U46 goes live, because they are destroying the balance and class identity, making a boring and stale meta, to please a minority of roleplayers and single questlers.

If you look arround in this forum, you see like 40% are against subclassing / dont want it.
Like 20% are like ah im gonna wait and see.
And the rest is like yes i look forward to it.

There are literally polls here representing this.

RealLoveBVB · May 30

fizzybeef wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Over time, as solo players became the majority, and as they saw that many of those players left due to not being able to play ESO like previous Elder Scrolls games that didn't have classes- and heard all the complaints about lack of freedom to 'play as we want'- they finally opted to give us the option to 'create our own class' in a manner of speaking.

This is just wrong. Its a mmo and most people are playing it as an mmo. The solo players are the minority. Glad you‘re pleased by subclassing but please dont make it out like everyone being strictly a pve questler, because thats not the case.

Sadly ESO turns out to be a single player and development favors this too...

Have a look at this poll, where I was shocked myself:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/678081/how-often-do-you-play-solo/p1

About 80% playing ESO mainly solo.

Veinblood1965 · May 30

It will still even out in the end. Those who spend the time theory crafting and then practicing the application of it will be OP and those who don't won't.

The one thing it will do is allow the average daily player to be more effective in PVE roles. My guess is ZoS will compensate by making harder content either through more HP's on mobs or deadlier mechanics or both. After all who wants a new trial, dungeon or Arena that you can just breeze through? Boring!

PVP will still be the same in the long run, the OP players will slaughter the average daily player since they spend more time learning how to use the skill combinations just like now.

It will truly be play as you want.

amiiegee · May 30

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Over time, as solo players became the majority, and as they saw that many of those players left due to not being able to play ESO like previous Elder Scrolls games that didn't have classes- and heard all the complaints about lack of freedom to 'play as we want'- they finally opted to give us the option to 'create our own class' in a manner of speaking.

This is just wrong. Its a mmo and most people are playing it as an mmo. The solo players are the minority. Glad you‘re pleased by subclassing but please dont make it out like everyone being strictly a pve questler, because thats not the case.

Sadly ESO turns out to be a single player and development favors this too...

Have a look at this poll, where I was shocked myself:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/678081/how-often-do-you-play-solo/p1

About 80% playing ESO mainly solo.

these who can be bothered to go in the forums, wich is also probably the 1%

In my 30 man pvp guild im literally the only one active in forum

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

licenturion wrote: »

I mentioned this in another thread as well, but it's worth repeating.

At this point, people should really start looking ahead. Most of these ongoing debates aren’t moving the needle anymore and tend to overlook the simple reality: subclassing is going live for everyone in just a few days.

The meaningful conversations will begin once it's actually in the game—when the new meta starts to form and players uncover overpowered combinations that need balancing. Then ZOS can also start gathering telemetry to see what needs to be addressed first.

The subclassing cat is already out of the bag. These current discussions have about as much impact on the game as debating the pros and cons of OneTamriel at this stage—basically none.

I disagree.

The devs need to hear LOUD AND CLEAR that their decision for subclassing may not be good for the game as they intend. There is a LOT of backlash against subclassing and rightfully so.

fizzybeef · May 30

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

I mentioned this in another thread as well, but it's worth repeating.

At this point, people should really start looking ahead. Most of these ongoing debates aren’t moving the needle anymore and tend to overlook the simple reality: subclassing is going live for everyone in just a few days.

The meaningful conversations will begin once it's actually in the game—when the new meta starts to form and players uncover overpowered combinations that need balancing. Then ZOS can also start gathering telemetry to see what needs to be addressed first.

The subclassing cat is already out of the bag. These current discussions have about as much impact on the game as debating the pros and cons of OneTamriel at this stage—basically none.

I disagree.

The devs need to hear LOUD AND CLEAR that their decision for subclassing may not be good for the game as they intend. There is a LOT of backlash against subclassing and rightfully so.

And it was all ignored by the devs and the solo players & questers & roleplayers feel confirmed that its done for then, as you can see here :

ADarklore wrote: »

I think people are forgetting that 'classes' were only a thing because it's a hold-over from when they expected ESO to be a 'traditional' group-oriented MMO... and when that idea failed... they shifted to One Tamriel but kept the class system in place. I think there was a lot of confusion at that time as to the actual direction the game would go- because at that point you still had a high number of PvP and Endgame players as well. Over time, as solo players became the majority, and as they saw that many of those players left due to not being able to play ESO like previous Elder Scrolls games that didn't have classes- and heard all the complaints about lack of freedom to 'play as we want'- they finally opted to give us the option to 'create our own class' in a manner of speaking. I think something is embedded in the game coding that would make it impossible to remove classes altogether- so they are making the most of what they have to work with.

So with that, players need to let go of the whole 'class' concept because it really no longer fits the future of this game. Classes are an outdated concept that should have been removed with One Tamriel, and clearly with subclassing, the devs no longer see 'classes' as a concept as being relevant.

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

fizzybeef wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

licenturion wrote: »

I mentioned this in another thread as well, but it's worth repeating.

At this point, people should really start looking ahead. Most of these ongoing debates aren’t moving the needle anymore and tend to overlook the simple reality: subclassing is going live for everyone in just a few days.

The meaningful conversations will begin once it's actually in the game—when the new meta starts to form and players uncover overpowered combinations that need balancing. Then ZOS can also start gathering telemetry to see what needs to be addressed first.

The subclassing cat is already out of the bag. These current discussions have about as much impact on the game as debating the pros and cons of OneTamriel at this stage—basically none.

I disagree.

The devs need to hear LOUD AND CLEAR that their decision for subclassing may not be good for the game as they intend. There is a LOT of backlash against subclassing and rightfully so.

And it was all ignored by the devs and the solo players & questers & roleplayers feel confirmed that its done for then, as you can see here :

ADarklore wrote: »

I think people are forgetting that 'classes' were only a thing because it's a hold-over from when they expected ESO to be a 'traditional' group-oriented MMO... and when that idea failed... they shifted to One Tamriel but kept the class system in place. I think there was a lot of confusion at that time as to the actual direction the game would go- because at that point you still had a high number of PvP and Endgame players as well. Over time, as solo players became the majority, and as they saw that many of those players left due to not being able to play ESO like previous Elder Scrolls games that didn't have classes- and heard all the complaints about lack of freedom to 'play as we want'- they finally opted to give us the option to 'create our own class' in a manner of speaking. I think something is embedded in the game coding that would make it impossible to remove classes altogether- so they are making the most of what they have to work with.

So with that, players need to let go of the whole 'class' concept because it really no longer fits the future of this game. Classes are an outdated concept that should have been removed with One Tamriel, and clearly with subclassing, the devs no longer see 'classes' as a concept as being relevant.

They do ignore us for sure, as far as the quote. That person is simply incorrect in their assertion.

preevious · May 30

So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.

So, community wide, it seems like a good change.

Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.

Consider this :

A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

preevious wrote: »

So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.

So, community wide, it seems like a good change.

Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.

Consider this :

A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.

So much for "play it your way" then....
Being forced to play a specific build in order to be competitive is the antithesis of of everything the Elder Scrolls franchise embodies regarding character builds.

When the best choice is the competitive choice then the player has no choice in their build if they intend on being competitive.

Subclassing is literally the opposite of freedom.

Sabre · May 30

ADarklore wrote: »

I think people are forgetting that 'classes' were only a thing because it's a hold-over from when they expected ESO to be a 'traditional' group-oriented MMO... and when that idea failed... they shifted to One Tamriel but kept the class system in place. I think there was a lot of confusion at that time as to the actual direction the game would go- because at that point you still had a high number of PvP and Endgame players as well. Over time, as solo players became the majority, and as they saw that many of those players left due to not being able to play ESO like previous Elder Scrolls games that didn't have classes- and heard all the complaints about lack of freedom to 'play as we want'- they finally opted to give us the option to 'create our own class' in a manner of speaking. I think something is embedded in the game coding that would make it impossible to remove classes altogether- so they are making the most of what they have to work with.

So with that, players need to let go of the whole 'class' concept because it really no longer fits the future of this game. Classes are an outdated concept that should have been removed with One Tamriel, and clearly with subclassing, the devs no longer see 'classes' as a concept as being relevant.

You are wrong. ESO is a 'traditional' group MMO. One Tamriel did not change that. To survive difficult content, one still needs healers, tanks, dps. That is the traditional MMO setup, and has not changed. In overland questing these specializations are not required, but that does not alter the traditional setup...or the fact that the Arcanist, Necro, and Warden have specifically 'traditional' skill lines for tank/heal/dps.

preevious · May 30

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.

So, community wide, it seems like a good change.

Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.

Consider this :

A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.

So much for "play it your way" then....
Being forced to play a specific build in order to be competitive is the antithesis of of everything the Elder Scrolls franchise embodies regarding character builds.

When the best choice is the competitive choice then the player has no choice in their build if they intend on being competitive.

Subclassing is literally the opposite of freedom.

One might argue that it's also incredibly "play your way" friendly.
Competitivity is only an issue with score-pushing guilds, and those teams are already pretty formatted with little place for freedom, anyway.

For the vast majority of players, it will indeed increase freedom a big deal, increase diversity, and allow those not really good at the game to get better.

I, for one, don't really care about being "the most competitive'. I don't want to join an high-end guild, and perform adequately in any content. So, I don't feel pressured into a specific build.
I'm sorry for those who do, but as soon as they realise nobody ask for those extra 5K DPS, they will stop caring.

Also; the elder scroll franchise is really not the antithesis of what you say.
Take morriwind, for exemple : play as a mage, or be less powerfull.
In skyrim, play a stealth archer, or be comically underpowered as a mage ..

Rungar · May 30

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Over time, as solo players became the majority, and as they saw that many of those players left due to not being able to play ESO like previous Elder Scrolls games that didn't have classes- and heard all the complaints about lack of freedom to 'play as we want'- they finally opted to give us the option to 'create our own class' in a manner of speaking.

This is just wrong. Its a mmo and most people are playing it as an mmo. The solo players are the minority. Glad you‘re pleased by subclassing but please dont make it out like everyone being strictly a pve questler, because thats not the case.

Sadly ESO turns out to be a single player and development favors this too...

Have a look at this poll, where I was shocked myself:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/678081/how-often-do-you-play-solo/p1

About 80% playing ESO mainly solo.

this is because dungeons and trials are not that compelling especially when people simply cant do them due to the nature of the combat system and linear raidcentric mechanics formula. Unlike the dungeons and trials you can still pvp solo and have fun with it.

Pixiepumpkin · May 30

preevious wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.

So, community wide, it seems like a good change.

Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.

Consider this :

A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.

So much for "play it your way" then....
Being forced to play a specific build in order to be competitive is the antithesis of of everything the Elder Scrolls franchise embodies regarding character builds.

When the best choice is the competitive choice then the player has no choice in their build if they intend on being competitive.

Subclassing is literally the opposite of freedom.

One might argue that it's also incredibly "play your way" friendly.
Competitivity is only an issue with score-pushing guilds, and those teams are already pretty formatted with little place for freedom, anyway.

For the vast majority of players, it will indeed increase freedom a big deal, increase diversity, and allow those not really good at the game to get better.

I, for one, don't really care about being "the most competitive'. I don't want to join an high-end guild, and perform adequately in any content. So, I don't feel pressured into a specific build.
I'm sorry for those who do, but as soon as they realise nobody ask for those extra 5K DPS, they will stop caring.

Also; the elder scroll franchise is really not the antithesis of what you say.
Take morriwind, for exemple : play as a mage, or be less powerfull.
In skyrim, play a stealth archer, or be comically underpowered as a mage ..

No, being competitve goes far FAR beyond score pushing guilds. One needs to be competitve in the daily random Vet. I can't count how many times I was abused by another player for "not pulling my weight" even though my damage output far exceeded what was necessary in the run.

The need to be on par with ones peers in any mmorpg is paramount as a plethora of MMORPG's over the past 20 years have showed us.

Subclassing is the illusion of choice as @sans-culottes points out.

Desiato · May 30

The largest con IMO is that it's going to reverse years of efforts ZOS has made to raise the floor and lower the ceiling.

With the introduction of subclassing, pure classes represent the floor and they are seeing nerfs.

I've been a critic of efforts to raise the floor and lower the ceiling -- so why would I be opposed to this? Because I doubt ZOS has intentionally drifted from this position and thus we're in for a LONG period of adjustments as ZOS attempts to restore the power fantasy of pure classes.

Vaqual · May 30

Rungar wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

fizzybeef wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Over time, as solo players became the majority, and as they saw that many of those players left due to not being able to play ESO like previous Elder Scrolls games that didn't have classes- and heard all the complaints about lack of freedom to 'play as we want'- they finally opted to give us the option to 'create our own class' in a manner of speaking.

This is just wrong. Its a mmo and most people are playing it as an mmo. The solo players are the minority. Glad you‘re pleased by subclassing but please dont make it out like everyone being strictly a pve questler, because thats not the case.

Sadly ESO turns out to be a single player and development favors this too...

Have a look at this poll, where I was shocked myself:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/678081/how-often-do-you-play-solo/p1

About 80% playing ESO mainly solo.

this is because dungeons and trials are not that compelling especially when people simply cant do them due to the nature of the combat system and linear raidcentric mechanics formula. Unlike the dungeons and trials you can still pvp solo and have fun with it.

That is only one side of it. Even in cases where the content would allow for creative and easy solutions, a dogmatic and narrow minded portion of the player base has created an unwelcoming atmosphere for PUG and random groups. Why would anyone want to listen to a random throwing a fit about people going too fast, people going too slow, people using the wrong ult, people using the wrong sets, people using the wrong class, when they can just solo a large proportion of the content without hassle?
There are often too few incentives and too many drawbacks for grouping up.
In many older MMOs players learn to work with what they have due to tiny player bases, but ESO players are still too spoiled.
Of course that doesn't apply to guilds with a good vibe, but "just find the right players that fit your personality/schedule/interests" is just not an advice that is immediately helpful for a large subsection of players. This type of player conditioning is mostly independent of balancing changes and stuff like subclassing - it is mostly a consequence of design and player culture.

(not replying specifically to the last poster, but rather generally to this exchange)

moderatelyfatman · May 31

I think IBehTehNinja summed it up perfectly in his video.
Basically, giving the players more choice when only a handful of those choices are good and the rest are not is not a good thing.
Play the Way you Want = Play Badly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9dzPBaJUCko

ZhuJiuyin · May 31

If combat was more balanced, maybe subclassing would be a good idea. But as we know, balance in the PTS is... shxx. So we have 180K Arc/NB/Templar, and the dps floor will be lower than it is now because new players don't know how to combine skill lines correctly.
Unless some balance changes are made before the 6/2 launch, subclassing will seriously increase the gap between players' ceilings and floors based on the current combat balance in the PTS, and the number of metas will be even smaller than it is now.

preevious · May 31

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.

So, community wide, it seems like a good change.

Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.

Consider this :

A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.

So much for "play it your way" then....
Being forced to play a specific build in order to be competitive is the antithesis of of everything the Elder Scrolls franchise embodies regarding character builds.

When the best choice is the competitive choice then the player has no choice in their build if they intend on being competitive.

Subclassing is literally the opposite of freedom.

One might argue that it's also incredibly "play your way" friendly.
Competitivity is only an issue with score-pushing guilds, and those teams are already pretty formatted with little place for freedom, anyway.

For the vast majority of players, it will indeed increase freedom a big deal, increase diversity, and allow those not really good at the game to get better.

I, for one, don't really care about being "the most competitive'. I don't want to join an high-end guild, and perform adequately in any content. So, I don't feel pressured into a specific build.
I'm sorry for those who do, but as soon as they realise nobody ask for those extra 5K DPS, they will stop caring.

Also; the elder scroll franchise is really not the antithesis of what you say.
Take morriwind, for exemple : play as a mage, or be less powerfull.
In skyrim, play a stealth archer, or be comically underpowered as a mage ..

No, being competitve goes far FAR beyond score pushing guilds. One needs to be competitve in the daily random Vet. I can't count how many times I was abused by another player for "not pulling my weight" even though my damage output far exceeded what was necessary in the run.

The need to be on par with ones peers in any mmorpg is paramount as a plethora of MMORPG's over the past 20 years have showed us.

Subclassing is the illusion of choice as @sans-culottes points out.

Ah, well, let's agree to disagree, then. I don't think it's paramount, nor will it ever be, ever in veteran content, save for trifectas and such.
I still believe that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, but you do you.

i'm sorry you've been bullied by other players. Never happened to me, even when I was the least damaging DPS. However, I can understand I would not like it.

Cheers.

sans-culottes · May 31

preevious wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.

So, community wide, it seems like a good change.

Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.

Consider this :

A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.

So much for "play it your way" then....
Being forced to play a specific build in order to be competitive is the antithesis of of everything the Elder Scrolls franchise embodies regarding character builds.

When the best choice is the competitive choice then the player has no choice in their build if they intend on being competitive.

Subclassing is literally the opposite of freedom.

One might argue that it's also incredibly "play your way" friendly.
Competitivity is only an issue with score-pushing guilds, and those teams are already pretty formatted with little place for freedom, anyway.

For the vast majority of players, it will indeed increase freedom a big deal, increase diversity, and allow those not really good at the game to get better.

I, for one, don't really care about being "the most competitive'. I don't want to join an high-end guild, and perform adequately in any content. So, I don't feel pressured into a specific build.
I'm sorry for those who do, but as soon as they realise nobody ask for those extra 5K DPS, they will stop caring.

Also; the elder scroll franchise is really not the antithesis of what you say.
Take morriwind, for exemple : play as a mage, or be less powerfull.
In skyrim, play a stealth archer, or be comically underpowered as a mage ..

No, being competitve goes far FAR beyond score pushing guilds. One needs to be competitve in the daily random Vet. I can't count how many times I was abused by another player for "not pulling my weight" even though my damage output far exceeded what was necessary in the run.

The need to be on par with ones peers in any mmorpg is paramount as a plethora of MMORPG's over the past 20 years have showed us.

Subclassing is the illusion of choice as @sans-culottes points out.

Ah, well, let's agree to disagree, then. I don't think it's paramount, nor will it ever be, ever in veteran content, save for trifectas and such.
I still believe that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, but you do you.

i'm sorry you've been bullied by other players. Never happened to me, even when I was the least damaging DPS. However, I can understand I would not like it.

Cheers.

It’s genuinely impressive how easily you dismiss what’s been a widespread player experience as “making a mountain out of a molehill.” You say it’s “never happened” to you, which is fine. But that’s an anecdote, not an argument.

The entire point @Pixiepumpkin made is that pressure to conform to escalating damage standards is not limited to trifectas or score pushing guilds. It’s embedded in everyday play: random vet queues, casual progression groups, even world bosses. Subclassing doesn’t remove that pressure; it exacerbates it by introducing a new performance ceiling that will, inevitably, become the new floor in many players’ eyes.

Saying “you do you” while implying someone else’s experience is exaggerated is not empathy. It’s a polite brush-off. And while that may feel cordial to write, it lands as dismissive.

francesinhalover · May 31

The subclassing system is badly done.

To properly work several skills would Need to BE moved around btw skill lines

Several dmg skills lines with the dmg passíves of the class. Don't have skills worth using (aedric spear)

And why are we limited to using ONLY 1 skill line per class?

preevious · May 31

sans-culottes wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.

So, community wide, it seems like a good change.

Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.

Consider this :

A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.

So much for "play it your way" then....
Being forced to play a specific build in order to be competitive is the antithesis of of everything the Elder Scrolls franchise embodies regarding character builds.

When the best choice is the competitive choice then the player has no choice in their build if they intend on being competitive.

Subclassing is literally the opposite of freedom.

One might argue that it's also incredibly "play your way" friendly.
Competitivity is only an issue with score-pushing guilds, and those teams are already pretty formatted with little place for freedom, anyway.

For the vast majority of players, it will indeed increase freedom a big deal, increase diversity, and allow those not really good at the game to get better.

I, for one, don't really care about being "the most competitive'. I don't want to join an high-end guild, and perform adequately in any content. So, I don't feel pressured into a specific build.
I'm sorry for those who do, but as soon as they realise nobody ask for those extra 5K DPS, they will stop caring.

Also; the elder scroll franchise is really not the antithesis of what you say.
Take morriwind, for exemple : play as a mage, or be less powerfull.
In skyrim, play a stealth archer, or be comically underpowered as a mage ..

No, being competitve goes far FAR beyond score pushing guilds. One needs to be competitve in the daily random Vet. I can't count how many times I was abused by another player for "not pulling my weight" even though my damage output far exceeded what was necessary in the run.

The need to be on par with ones peers in any mmorpg is paramount as a plethora of MMORPG's over the past 20 years have showed us.

Subclassing is the illusion of choice as @sans-culottes points out.

Ah, well, let's agree to disagree, then. I don't think it's paramount, nor will it ever be, ever in veteran content, save for trifectas and such.
I still believe that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, but you do you.

i'm sorry you've been bullied by other players. Never happened to me, even when I was the least damaging DPS. However, I can understand I would not like it.

Cheers.

It’s genuinely impressive how easily you dismiss what’s been a widespread player experience as “making a mountain out of a molehill.” You say it’s “never happened” to you, which is fine. But that’s an anecdote, not an argument.

The entire point @Pixiepumpkin made is that pressure to conform to escalating damage standards is not limited to trifectas or score pushing guilds. It’s embedded in everyday play: random vet queues, casual progression groups, even world bosses. Subclassing doesn’t remove that pressure; it exacerbates it by introducing a new performance ceiling that will, inevitably, become the new floor in many players’ eyes.

Saying “you do you” while implying someone else’s experience is exaggerated is not empathy. It’s a polite brush-off. And while that may feel cordial to write, it lands as dismissive.

Ah, well, I'm sorry if it felt dismissive. It wasn't my intention. And I really am sorry for your poor experiences.

However, I just genuinely think that :

1) Multiclassing will increase the ceiling, yes. Does the game need that? No, it doesn't. That's a point where I fully agree with you guys
2) Multiclassing will increase the floor, too. Does the game need that? Yes, probably .. more competent people around equals more fun.
3) Will one player be rejected because he multiclassed into aedric spear instead of assassination? I don't think so. There will be a bajillion ways to increase your damage, and no one shall bully you into taking one instead of an other.

The community as a whole is pretty nice, I think.
And I think multiclassing will allow for a variety of build, all being equally capable to clear any content.
Keep faith !

Rungar · May 31

in reality subclassing changes nothing. You can either maximize the combat system and avoid mechanics or you cant. Players who can do this will outplay pretty much any player who cant do that regardless of the skill lines used. The floor an ceiling have always been in the same place and they arent going anywhere. Meaningful changes to the combat system and the nature of the content itself are required to change the floor and ceiling.

sans-culottes · May 31

preevious wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

preevious wrote: »

So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.

So, community wide, it seems like a good change.

Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.

Consider this :

A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.

So much for "play it your way" then....
Being forced to play a specific build in order to be competitive is the antithesis of of everything the Elder Scrolls franchise embodies regarding character builds.

When the best choice is the competitive choice then the player has no choice in their build if they intend on being competitive.

Subclassing is literally the opposite of freedom.

One might argue that it's also incredibly "play your way" friendly.
Competitivity is only an issue with score-pushing guilds, and those teams are already pretty formatted with little place for freedom, anyway.

For the vast majority of players, it will indeed increase freedom a big deal, increase diversity, and allow those not really good at the game to get better.

I, for one, don't really care about being "the most competitive'. I don't want to join an high-end guild, and perform adequately in any content. So, I don't feel pressured into a specific build.
I'm sorry for those who do, but as soon as they realise nobody ask for those extra 5K DPS, they will stop caring.

Also; the elder scroll franchise is really not the antithesis of what you say.
Take morriwind, for exemple : play as a mage, or be less powerfull.
In skyrim, play a stealth archer, or be comically underpowered as a mage ..

No, being competitve goes far FAR beyond score pushing guilds. One needs to be competitve in the daily random Vet. I can't count how many times I was abused by another player for "not pulling my weight" even though my damage output far exceeded what was necessary in the run.

The need to be on par with ones peers in any mmorpg is paramount as a plethora of MMORPG's over the past 20 years have showed us.

Subclassing is the illusion of choice as @sans-culottes points out.

Ah, well, let's agree to disagree, then. I don't think it's paramount, nor will it ever be, ever in veteran content, save for trifectas and such.
I still believe that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, but you do you.

i'm sorry you've been bullied by other players. Never happened to me, even when I was the least damaging DPS. However, I can understand I would not like it.

Cheers.

It’s genuinely impressive how easily you dismiss what’s been a widespread player experience as “making a mountain out of a molehill.” You say it’s “never happened” to you, which is fine. But that’s an anecdote, not an argument.

The entire point @Pixiepumpkin made is that pressure to conform to escalating damage standards is not limited to trifectas or score pushing guilds. It’s embedded in everyday play: random vet queues, casual progression groups, even world bosses. Subclassing doesn’t remove that pressure; it exacerbates it by introducing a new performance ceiling that will, inevitably, become the new floor in many players’ eyes.

Saying “you do you” while implying someone else’s experience is exaggerated is not empathy. It’s a polite brush-off. And while that may feel cordial to write, it lands as dismissive.

Ah, well, I'm sorry if it felt dismissive. It wasn't my intention. And I really am sorry for your poor experiences.

However, I just genuinely think that :

1) Multiclassing will increase the ceiling, yes. Does the game need that? No, it doesn't. That's a point where I fully agree with you guys
2) Multiclassing will increase the floor, too. Does the game need that? Yes, probably .. more competent people around equals more fun.
3) Will one player be rejected because he multiclassed into aedric spear instead of assassination? I don't think so. There will be a bajillion ways to increase your damage, and no one shall bully you into taking one instead of an other.

The community as a whole is pretty nice, I think.
And I think multiclassing will allow for a variety of build, all being equally capable to clear any content.
Keep faith !

That response is well-meaning, but it completely misses the structural nature of the critique. No one is saying subclassing is bad because someone will personally be “bullied” for choosing Aedric Spear over Assassination. That’s a strawman.

The actual point—clearly laid out by multiple posters—is that subclassing introduces systemic pressure by elevating the performance ceiling. And when that happens, over time, the perception of what is “baseline” performance shifts too. This isn’t theoretical. It’s happened with every major power creep shift in this game, from light attack weaving to hybridization. Players are conditioned by visible performance gaps. And even if most people aren’t toxic, enough are that it creates a chilling effect for anyone not following the new meta.

You’re speaking from an idealized view of the community. But the posts you’re replying to are grounded in actual experience—not theory, not fear, but what players have lived through again and again.

Dismissing that as an emotional overreaction—however politely worded—is still a dismissal.