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Pros and Cons of Subclassing
-
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.
So, community wide, it seems like a good change.
Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.
Consider this :
A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.
So much for "play it your way" then....
Being forced to play a specific build in order to be competitive is the antithesis of of everything the Elder Scrolls franchise embodies regarding character builds.
When the best choice is the competitive choice then the player has no choice in their build if they intend on being competitive.
Subclassing is literally the opposite of freedom.
One might argue that it's also incredibly "play your way" friendly.
Competitivity is only an issue with score-pushing guilds, and those teams are already pretty formatted with little place for freedom, anyway.
For the vast majority of players, it will indeed increase freedom a big deal, increase diversity, and allow those not really good at the game to get better.
I, for one, don't really care about being "the most competitive'. I don't want to join an high-end guild, and perform adequately in any content. So, I don't feel pressured into a specific build.
I'm sorry for those who do, but as soon as they realise nobody ask for those extra 5K DPS, they will stop caring.
Also; the elder scroll franchise is really not the antithesis of what you say.
Take morriwind, for exemple : play as a mage, or be less powerfull.
In skyrim, play a stealth archer, or be comically underpowered as a mage ..
No, being competitve goes far FAR beyond score pushing guilds. One needs to be competitve in the daily random Vet. I can't count how many times I was abused by another player for "not pulling my weight" even though my damage output far exceeded what was necessary in the run.
The need to be on par with ones peers in any mmorpg is paramount as a plethora of MMORPG's over the past 20 years have showed us.
Subclassing is the illusion of choice as @sans-culottes points out.
Ah, well, let's agree to disagree, then. I don't think it's paramount, nor will it ever be, ever in veteran content, save for trifectas and such.
I still believe that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, but you do you.
i'm sorry you've been bullied by other players. Never happened to me, even when I was the least damaging DPS. However, I can understand I would not like it.
Cheers.
It’s genuinely impressive how easily you dismiss what’s been a widespread player experience as “making a mountain out of a molehill.” You say it’s “never happened” to you, which is fine. But that’s an anecdote, not an argument.
The entire point @Pixiepumpkin made is that pressure to conform to escalating damage standards is not limited to trifectas or score pushing guilds. It’s embedded in everyday play: random vet queues, casual progression groups, even world bosses. Subclassing doesn’t remove that pressure; it exacerbates it by introducing a new performance ceiling that will, inevitably, become the new floor in many players’ eyes.
Saying “you do you” while implying someone else’s experience is exaggerated is not empathy. It’s a polite brush-off. And while that may feel cordial to write, it lands as dismissive.
Ah, well, I'm sorry if it felt dismissive. It wasn't my intention. And I really am sorry for your poor experiences.
However, I just genuinely think that :
1) Multiclassing will increase the ceiling, yes. Does the game need that? No, it doesn't. That's a point where I fully agree with you guys
2) Multiclassing will increase the floor, too. Does the game need that? Yes, probably .. more competent people around equals more fun.
3) Will one player be rejected because he multiclassed into aedric spear instead of assassination? I don't think so. There will be a bajillion ways to increase your damage, and no one shall bully you into taking one instead of an other.
The community as a whole is pretty nice, I think.
And I think multiclassing will allow for a variety of build, all being equally capable to clear any content.
Keep faith !
That response is well-meaning, but it completely misses the structural nature of the critique. No one is saying subclassing is bad because someone will personally be “bullied” for choosing Aedric Spear over Assassination. That’s a strawman.
The actual point—clearly laid out by multiple posters—is that subclassing introduces systemic pressure by elevating the performance ceiling. And when that happens, over time, the perception of what is “baseline” performance shifts too. This isn’t theoretical. It’s happened with every major power creep shift in this game, from light attack weaving to hybridization. Players are conditioned by visible performance gaps. And even if most people aren’t toxic, enough are that it creates a chilling effect for anyone not following the new meta.
You’re speaking from an idealized view of the community. But the posts you’re replying to are grounded in actual experience—not theory, not fear, but what players have lived through again and again.
Dismissing that as an emotional overreaction—however politely worded—is still a dismissal.
Do you realise that you say two opposite things?
"Subclassing introduce systemic pressure" and "no one will be bullied for being suboptimal" ...
If you are confident that it's a strawman, that means you are confident that no one will be rejected, or at worst that it will be edge cases. Then, what systemic pressure do you talk about?
Sure, some people WILL feel obligated to go fetch 5k extra DPS, yes. It will happen.
And those will be funeled towards the optimal choices ... exactly as they are now.
The rest are free, exactly as they are now. Do not put something you feel in the head of the rest of the community, right?
So, stop creating villains in your narrative.0 -
sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.
So, community wide, it seems like a good change.
Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.
Consider this :
A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.
So much for "play it your way" then....
Being forced to play a specific build in order to be competitive is the antithesis of of everything the Elder Scrolls franchise embodies regarding character builds.
When the best choice is the competitive choice then the player has no choice in their build if they intend on being competitive.
Subclassing is literally the opposite of freedom.
One might argue that it's also incredibly "play your way" friendly.
Competitivity is only an issue with score-pushing guilds, and those teams are already pretty formatted with little place for freedom, anyway.
For the vast majority of players, it will indeed increase freedom a big deal, increase diversity, and allow those not really good at the game to get better.
I, for one, don't really care about being "the most competitive'. I don't want to join an high-end guild, and perform adequately in any content. So, I don't feel pressured into a specific build.
I'm sorry for those who do, but as soon as they realise nobody ask for those extra 5K DPS, they will stop caring.
Also; the elder scroll franchise is really not the antithesis of what you say.
Take morriwind, for exemple : play as a mage, or be less powerfull.
In skyrim, play a stealth archer, or be comically underpowered as a mage ..
No, being competitve goes far FAR beyond score pushing guilds. One needs to be competitve in the daily random Vet. I can't count how many times I was abused by another player for "not pulling my weight" even though my damage output far exceeded what was necessary in the run.
The need to be on par with ones peers in any mmorpg is paramount as a plethora of MMORPG's over the past 20 years have showed us.
Subclassing is the illusion of choice as @sans-culottes points out.
Ah, well, let's agree to disagree, then. I don't think it's paramount, nor will it ever be, ever in veteran content, save for trifectas and such.
I still believe that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, but you do you.
i'm sorry you've been bullied by other players. Never happened to me, even when I was the least damaging DPS. However, I can understand I would not like it.
Cheers.
It’s genuinely impressive how easily you dismiss what’s been a widespread player experience as “making a mountain out of a molehill.” You say it’s “never happened” to you, which is fine. But that’s an anecdote, not an argument.
The entire point @Pixiepumpkin made is that pressure to conform to escalating damage standards is not limited to trifectas or score pushing guilds. It’s embedded in everyday play: random vet queues, casual progression groups, even world bosses. Subclassing doesn’t remove that pressure; it exacerbates it by introducing a new performance ceiling that will, inevitably, become the new floor in many players’ eyes.
Saying “you do you” while implying someone else’s experience is exaggerated is not empathy. It’s a polite brush-off. And while that may feel cordial to write, it lands as dismissive.
Ah, well, I'm sorry if it felt dismissive. It wasn't my intention. And I really am sorry for your poor experiences.
However, I just genuinely think that :
1) Multiclassing will increase the ceiling, yes. Does the game need that? No, it doesn't. That's a point where I fully agree with you guys
2) Multiclassing will increase the floor, too. Does the game need that? Yes, probably .. more competent people around equals more fun.
3) Will one player be rejected because he multiclassed into aedric spear instead of assassination? I don't think so. There will be a bajillion ways to increase your damage, and no one shall bully you into taking one instead of an other.
The community as a whole is pretty nice, I think.
And I think multiclassing will allow for a variety of build, all being equally capable to clear any content.
Keep faith !
That response is well-meaning, but it completely misses the structural nature of the critique. No one is saying subclassing is bad because someone will personally be “bullied” for choosing Aedric Spear over Assassination. That’s a strawman.
The actual point—clearly laid out by multiple posters—is that subclassing introduces systemic pressure by elevating the performance ceiling. And when that happens, over time, the perception of what is “baseline” performance shifts too. This isn’t theoretical. It’s happened with every major power creep shift in this game, from light attack weaving to hybridization. Players are conditioned by visible performance gaps. And even if most people aren’t toxic, enough are that it creates a chilling effect for anyone not following the new meta.
You’re speaking from an idealized view of the community. But the posts you’re replying to are grounded in actual experience—not theory, not fear, but what players have lived through again and again.
Dismissing that as an emotional overreaction—however politely worded—is still a dismissal.
Do you realise that you say two opposite things?
"Subclassing introduce systemic pressure" and "no one will be bullied for being suboptimal" ...
If you are confident that it's a strawman, that means you are confident that no one will be rejected, or at worst that it will be edge cases. Then, what systemic pressure do you talk about?
Sure, some people WILL feel obligated to go fetch 5k extra DPS, yes. It will happen.
And those will be funeled towards the optimal choices ... exactly as they are now.
The rest are free, exactly as they are now. Do not put something you feel in the head of the rest of the community, right?
So, stop creating villains in your narrative.
@preevious, you’re misunderstanding the nature of systemic pressure.
No one is “creating villains.” What we’re describing is how systems shape behavior, regardless of whether any individual player is directly toxic about it.
Your reply conflates two different things: individual hostility and structural expectations. You’re saying, essentially, “If no one is bullying you, then there’s no issue.” That misses the argument entirely.
Performance floors are shaped over time by performance ceilings. That’s how metas evolve. When subclassing raises the ceiling, it redefines what counts as “normal,” even in non-elite content. You can already see this in how players treat heavy attack builds or hybrid stats. Players who once flew under the radar are now benched or kicked for doing less DPS, even in random vet dungeons.
No villain is needed for this. Just a few shifts in expectation and enough players chasing optimality.
This isn’t contradiction. It’s what happens when mechanical incentives change player behavior. The pressure exists whether or not anyone explicitly enforces it. That is what makes it systemic.3 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.
So, community wide, it seems like a good change.
Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.
Consider this :
A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.
So much for "play it your way" then....
Being forced to play a specific build in order to be competitive is the antithesis of of everything the Elder Scrolls franchise embodies regarding character builds.
When the best choice is the competitive choice then the player has no choice in their build if they intend on being competitive.
Subclassing is literally the opposite of freedom.
One might argue that it's also incredibly "play your way" friendly.
Competitivity is only an issue with score-pushing guilds, and those teams are already pretty formatted with little place for freedom, anyway.
For the vast majority of players, it will indeed increase freedom a big deal, increase diversity, and allow those not really good at the game to get better.
I, for one, don't really care about being "the most competitive'. I don't want to join an high-end guild, and perform adequately in any content. So, I don't feel pressured into a specific build.
I'm sorry for those who do, but as soon as they realise nobody ask for those extra 5K DPS, they will stop caring.
Also; the elder scroll franchise is really not the antithesis of what you say.
Take morriwind, for exemple : play as a mage, or be less powerfull.
In skyrim, play a stealth archer, or be comically underpowered as a mage ..
No, being competitve goes far FAR beyond score pushing guilds. One needs to be competitve in the daily random Vet. I can't count how many times I was abused by another player for "not pulling my weight" even though my damage output far exceeded what was necessary in the run.
The need to be on par with ones peers in any mmorpg is paramount as a plethora of MMORPG's over the past 20 years have showed us.
Subclassing is the illusion of choice as @sans-culottes points out.
Ah, well, let's agree to disagree, then. I don't think it's paramount, nor will it ever be, ever in veteran content, save for trifectas and such.
I still believe that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, but you do you.
i'm sorry you've been bullied by other players. Never happened to me, even when I was the least damaging DPS. However, I can understand I would not like it.
Cheers.
It’s genuinely impressive how easily you dismiss what’s been a widespread player experience as “making a mountain out of a molehill.” You say it’s “never happened” to you, which is fine. But that’s an anecdote, not an argument.
The entire point @Pixiepumpkin made is that pressure to conform to escalating damage standards is not limited to trifectas or score pushing guilds. It’s embedded in everyday play: random vet queues, casual progression groups, even world bosses. Subclassing doesn’t remove that pressure; it exacerbates it by introducing a new performance ceiling that will, inevitably, become the new floor in many players’ eyes.
Saying “you do you” while implying someone else’s experience is exaggerated is not empathy. It’s a polite brush-off. And while that may feel cordial to write, it lands as dismissive.
Ah, well, I'm sorry if it felt dismissive. It wasn't my intention. And I really am sorry for your poor experiences.
However, I just genuinely think that :
1) Multiclassing will increase the ceiling, yes. Does the game need that? No, it doesn't. That's a point where I fully agree with you guys
2) Multiclassing will increase the floor, too. Does the game need that? Yes, probably .. more competent people around equals more fun.
3) Will one player be rejected because he multiclassed into aedric spear instead of assassination? I don't think so. There will be a bajillion ways to increase your damage, and no one shall bully you into taking one instead of an other.
The community as a whole is pretty nice, I think.
And I think multiclassing will allow for a variety of build, all being equally capable to clear any content.
Keep faith !
That response is well-meaning, but it completely misses the structural nature of the critique. No one is saying subclassing is bad because someone will personally be “bullied” for choosing Aedric Spear over Assassination. That’s a strawman.
The actual point—clearly laid out by multiple posters—is that subclassing introduces systemic pressure by elevating the performance ceiling. And when that happens, over time, the perception of what is “baseline” performance shifts too. This isn’t theoretical. It’s happened with every major power creep shift in this game, from light attack weaving to hybridization. Players are conditioned by visible performance gaps. And even if most people aren’t toxic, enough are that it creates a chilling effect for anyone not following the new meta.
You’re speaking from an idealized view of the community. But the posts you’re replying to are grounded in actual experience—not theory, not fear, but what players have lived through again and again.
Dismissing that as an emotional overreaction—however politely worded—is still a dismissal.
Do you realise that you say two opposite things?
"Subclassing introduce systemic pressure" and "no one will be bullied for being suboptimal" ...
If you are confident that it's a strawman, that means you are confident that no one will be rejected, or at worst that it will be edge cases. Then, what systemic pressure do you talk about?
Sure, some people WILL feel obligated to go fetch 5k extra DPS, yes. It will happen.
And those will be funeled towards the optimal choices ... exactly as they are now.
The rest are free, exactly as they are now. Do not put something you feel in the head of the rest of the community, right?
So, stop creating villains in your narrative.
@preevious, you’re misunderstanding the nature of systemic pressure.
No one is “creating villains.” What we’re describing is how systems shape behavior, regardless of whether any individual player is directly toxic about it.
Your reply conflates two different things: individual hostility and structural expectations. You’re saying, essentially, “If no one is bullying you, then there’s no issue.” That misses the argument entirely.
Performance floors are shaped over time by performance ceilings. That’s how metas evolve. When subclassing raises the ceiling, it redefines what counts as “normal,” even in non-elite content. You can already see this in how players treat heavy attack builds or hybrid stats. Players who once flew under the radar are now benched or kicked for doing less DPS, even in random vet dungeons.
No villain is needed for this. Just a few shifts in expectation and enough players chasing optimality.
This isn’t contradiction. It’s what happens when mechanical incentives change player behavior. The pressure exists whether or not anyone explicitly enforces it. That is what makes it systemic.
Nope, sorry, I still don't understand what you mean. It must be me, I know.
Since the majority seems to be in favour of the system (as per the polls), I can only assume that the systemic pressure you speak about is something a fraction of the population put on themselves.
The fact that you feel this pressure does not mean that it's not something you create yourself.0 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.
So, community wide, it seems like a good change.
Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.
Consider this :
A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.
So much for "play it your way" then....
Being forced to play a specific build in order to be competitive is the antithesis of of everything the Elder Scrolls franchise embodies regarding character builds.
When the best choice is the competitive choice then the player has no choice in their build if they intend on being competitive.
Subclassing is literally the opposite of freedom.
One might argue that it's also incredibly "play your way" friendly.
Competitivity is only an issue with score-pushing guilds, and those teams are already pretty formatted with little place for freedom, anyway.
For the vast majority of players, it will indeed increase freedom a big deal, increase diversity, and allow those not really good at the game to get better.
I, for one, don't really care about being "the most competitive'. I don't want to join an high-end guild, and perform adequately in any content. So, I don't feel pressured into a specific build.
I'm sorry for those who do, but as soon as they realise nobody ask for those extra 5K DPS, they will stop caring.
Also; the elder scroll franchise is really not the antithesis of what you say.
Take morriwind, for exemple : play as a mage, or be less powerfull.
In skyrim, play a stealth archer, or be comically underpowered as a mage ..
No, being competitve goes far FAR beyond score pushing guilds. One needs to be competitve in the daily random Vet. I can't count how many times I was abused by another player for "not pulling my weight" even though my damage output far exceeded what was necessary in the run.
The need to be on par with ones peers in any mmorpg is paramount as a plethora of MMORPG's over the past 20 years have showed us.
Subclassing is the illusion of choice as @sans-culottes points out.
Ah, well, let's agree to disagree, then. I don't think it's paramount, nor will it ever be, ever in veteran content, save for trifectas and such.
I still believe that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, but you do you.
i'm sorry you've been bullied by other players. Never happened to me, even when I was the least damaging DPS. However, I can understand I would not like it.
Cheers.
It’s genuinely impressive how easily you dismiss what’s been a widespread player experience as “making a mountain out of a molehill.” You say it’s “never happened” to you, which is fine. But that’s an anecdote, not an argument.
The entire point Pixiepumpkin made is that pressure to conform to escalating damage standards is not limited to trifectas or score pushing guilds. It’s embedded in everyday play: random vet queues, casual progression groups, even world bosses. Subclassing doesn’t remove that pressure; it exacerbates it by introducing a new performance ceiling that will, inevitably, become the new floor in many players’ eyes.
Saying “you do you” while implying someone else’s experience is exaggerated is not empathy. It’s a polite brush-off. And while that may feel cordial to write, it lands as dismissive.
Ah, well, I'm sorry if it felt dismissive. It wasn't my intention. And I really am sorry for your poor experiences.
However, I just genuinely think that :
1) Multiclassing will increase the ceiling, yes. Does the game need that? No, it doesn't. That's a point where I fully agree with you guys
2) Multiclassing will increase the floor, too. Does the game need that? Yes, probably .. more competent people around equals more fun.
3) Will one player be rejected because he multiclassed into aedric spear instead of assassination? I don't think so. There will be a bajillion ways to increase your damage, and no one shall bully you into taking one instead of an other.
The community as a whole is pretty nice, I think.
And I think multiclassing will allow for a variety of build, all being equally capable to clear any content.
Keep faith !
That response is well-meaning, but it completely misses the structural nature of the critique. No one is saying subclassing is bad because someone will personally be “bullied” for choosing Aedric Spear over Assassination. That’s a strawman.
The actual point—clearly laid out by multiple posters—is that subclassing introduces systemic pressure by elevating the performance ceiling. And when that happens, over time, the perception of what is “baseline” performance shifts too. This isn’t theoretical. It’s happened with every major power creep shift in this game, from light attack weaving to hybridization. Players are conditioned by visible performance gaps. And even if most people aren’t toxic, enough are that it creates a chilling effect for anyone not following the new meta.
You’re speaking from an idealized view of the community. But the posts you’re replying to are grounded in actual experience—not theory, not fear, but what players have lived through again and again.
Dismissing that as an emotional overreaction—however politely worded—is still a dismissal.
Do you realise that you say two opposite things?
"Subclassing introduce systemic pressure" and "no one will be bullied for being suboptimal" ...
If you are confident that it's a strawman, that means you are confident that no one will be rejected, or at worst that it will be edge cases. Then, what systemic pressure do you talk about?
Sure, some people WILL feel obligated to go fetch 5k extra DPS, yes. It will happen.
And those will be funeled towards the optimal choices ... exactly as they are now.
The rest are free, exactly as they are now. Do not put something you feel in the head of the rest of the community, right?
So, stop creating villains in your narrative.
preevious, you’re misunderstanding the nature of systemic pressure.
No one is “creating villains.” What we’re describing is how systems shape behavior, regardless of whether any individual player is directly toxic about it.
Your reply conflates two different things: individual hostility and structural expectations. You’re saying, essentially, “If no one is bullying you, then there’s no issue.” That misses the argument entirely.
Performance floors are shaped over time by performance ceilings. That’s how metas evolve. When subclassing raises the ceiling, it redefines what counts as “normal,” even in non-elite content. You can already see this in how players treat heavy attack builds or hybrid stats. Players who once flew under the radar are now benched or kicked for doing less DPS, even in random vet dungeons.
No villain is needed for this. Just a few shifts in expectation and enough players chasing optimality.
This isn’t contradiction. It’s what happens when mechanical incentives change player behavior. The pressure exists whether or not anyone explicitly enforces it. That is what makes it systemic.
Nope, sorry, I still don't understand what you mean. It must be me, I know.
Since the majority seems to be in favour of the system (as per the polls), I can only assume that the systemic pressure you speak about is something a fraction of the population put on themselves.
The fact that you feel this pressure does not mean that it's not something you create yourself.
I feel like this is one of those logical fallacies where you can make statistics do whatever you want them to.
When I see the (utterly nonscientific) polls on the forums, I’m noticing a few things about who’s answering what. Notably, most of the people who are excited about Subclassing:- Primarily play solo
- Have little interest or experience in endgame PvE or PvP
- Are optimistic about changes, some to a toxic degree
- Care more about an individual’s experience and fun and know the game will survive regardless
- Tend to play higher-level PvE or PvP
- Continually reference previous shakeups like Hybridization or U35 not working out as imagined
- Are pessimistic about changes, some to a toxic degree
- Care more about the health or the game as a whole and are willing to sacrifice personal fun for that
Part of this frustration is also from proponents of Subclassing explaining how it will affect endgame when they have little experience or stake in it. We know from real-world politics that someone making sweeping generalizations about something in which they have little experience or will not affect them is nothing short of infuriating, and it’s the same here.
The real frustrating part is that Subclassing could have been set up in such a way that didn’t directly pit the populations of the game against each other. But because of the way Subclassing was done, this conflict is inevitable.
If the class lines had been balanced properly so some lines weren’t absurdly overpowered and others have nothing going for them, it’d be better. If there were some actual penalties to taking other lines so players actually had to make choices (and not just discard things they weren’t using anyway to pick up more power for no drawbacks), it’d be better. If Subclassing were even as it is now, but only allowed in normal content and overland, forcing people to stick to stick to pure classes in endgame where balance and identity matter, it’d be better.
All of those possibilities would still allow the casual and solo players to engage either it and build their characters how they want, but without dropping a nuke on endgame.
As I’ve said before, I personally don’t have a problem with Subclassing’s existence, and frankly I wish it had been even more permissive where you could trade all three lines and take multiple lines from the same parent class for no increased skill point or XP opportunity cost.
However, I do not think that such a massive infusion of power creep is healthy, and it will end up making groups have stricter entry requirements. I also dislike that the meta is being changed such that there is a massive power delta - currently, a good enough player can take an off-meta Class and still do well, but the infusion of power coming with Subclassing is going to make it too large of a barrier even for that. And finally, I despise the dismissive attitude of certain portions of the fanbase, some of whom are even saying that they “hope Subclassing will cause the endgamers to leave so ESO can focus on the ‘real’ fans” (which yes, is something I actually saw someone say on this forum)
ESO is, and should be, big enough for all of us. But that does mean we can’t all pretend this is exclusively an MMO… or exclusively solo. We all need to consider how these things would affect others.6 -
sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.
So, community wide, it seems like a good change.
Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.
Consider this :
A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.
So much for "play it your way" then....
Being forced to play a specific build in order to be competitive is the antithesis of of everything the Elder Scrolls franchise embodies regarding character builds.
When the best choice is the competitive choice then the player has no choice in their build if they intend on being competitive.
Subclassing is literally the opposite of freedom.
One might argue that it's also incredibly "play your way" friendly.
Competitivity is only an issue with score-pushing guilds, and those teams are already pretty formatted with little place for freedom, anyway.
For the vast majority of players, it will indeed increase freedom a big deal, increase diversity, and allow those not really good at the game to get better.
I, for one, don't really care about being "the most competitive'. I don't want to join an high-end guild, and perform adequately in any content. So, I don't feel pressured into a specific build.
I'm sorry for those who do, but as soon as they realise nobody ask for those extra 5K DPS, they will stop caring.
Also; the elder scroll franchise is really not the antithesis of what you say.
Take morriwind, for exemple : play as a mage, or be less powerfull.
In skyrim, play a stealth archer, or be comically underpowered as a mage ..
No, being competitve goes far FAR beyond score pushing guilds. One needs to be competitve in the daily random Vet. I can't count how many times I was abused by another player for "not pulling my weight" even though my damage output far exceeded what was necessary in the run.
The need to be on par with ones peers in any mmorpg is paramount as a plethora of MMORPG's over the past 20 years have showed us.
Subclassing is the illusion of choice as @sans-culottes points out.
Ah, well, let's agree to disagree, then. I don't think it's paramount, nor will it ever be, ever in veteran content, save for trifectas and such.
I still believe that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, but you do you.
i'm sorry you've been bullied by other players. Never happened to me, even when I was the least damaging DPS. However, I can understand I would not like it.
Cheers.
It’s genuinely impressive how easily you dismiss what’s been a widespread player experience as “making a mountain out of a molehill.” You say it’s “never happened” to you, which is fine. But that’s an anecdote, not an argument.
The entire point @Pixiepumpkin made is that pressure to conform to escalating damage standards is not limited to trifectas or score pushing guilds. It’s embedded in everyday play: random vet queues, casual progression groups, even world bosses. Subclassing doesn’t remove that pressure; it exacerbates it by introducing a new performance ceiling that will, inevitably, become the new floor in many players’ eyes.
Saying “you do you” while implying someone else’s experience is exaggerated is not empathy. It’s a polite brush-off. And while that may feel cordial to write, it lands as dismissive.
Ah, well, I'm sorry if it felt dismissive. It wasn't my intention. And I really am sorry for your poor experiences.
However, I just genuinely think that :
1) Multiclassing will increase the ceiling, yes. Does the game need that? No, it doesn't. That's a point where I fully agree with you guys
2) Multiclassing will increase the floor, too. Does the game need that? Yes, probably .. more competent people around equals more fun.
3) Will one player be rejected because he multiclassed into aedric spear instead of assassination? I don't think so. There will be a bajillion ways to increase your damage, and no one shall bully you into taking one instead of an other.
The community as a whole is pretty nice, I think.
And I think multiclassing will allow for a variety of build, all being equally capable to clear any content.
Keep faith !
That response is well-meaning, but it completely misses the structural nature of the critique. No one is saying subclassing is bad because someone will personally be “bullied” for choosing Aedric Spear over Assassination. That’s a strawman.
The actual point—clearly laid out by multiple posters—is that subclassing introduces systemic pressure by elevating the performance ceiling. And when that happens, over time, the perception of what is “baseline” performance shifts too. This isn’t theoretical. It’s happened with every major power creep shift in this game, from light attack weaving to hybridization. Players are conditioned by visible performance gaps. And even if most people aren’t toxic, enough are that it creates a chilling effect for anyone not following the new meta.
You’re speaking from an idealized view of the community. But the posts you’re replying to are grounded in actual experience—not theory, not fear, but what players have lived through again and again.
Dismissing that as an emotional overreaction—however politely worded—is still a dismissal.
Do you realise that you say two opposite things?
"Subclassing introduce systemic pressure" and "no one will be bullied for being suboptimal" ...
If you are confident that it's a strawman, that means you are confident that no one will be rejected, or at worst that it will be edge cases. Then, what systemic pressure do you talk about?
Sure, some people WILL feel obligated to go fetch 5k extra DPS, yes. It will happen.
And those will be funeled towards the optimal choices ... exactly as they are now.
The rest are free, exactly as they are now. Do not put something you feel in the head of the rest of the community, right?
So, stop creating villains in your narrative.
@preevious, you’re misunderstanding the nature of systemic pressure.
No one is “creating villains.” What we’re describing is how systems shape behavior, regardless of whether any individual player is directly toxic about it.
Your reply conflates two different things: individual hostility and structural expectations. You’re saying, essentially, “If no one is bullying you, then there’s no issue.” That misses the argument entirely.
Performance floors are shaped over time by performance ceilings. That’s how metas evolve. When subclassing raises the ceiling, it redefines what counts as “normal,” even in non-elite content. You can already see this in how players treat heavy attack builds or hybrid stats. Players who once flew under the radar are now benched or kicked for doing less DPS, even in random vet dungeons.
No villain is needed for this. Just a few shifts in expectation and enough players chasing optimality.
This isn’t contradiction. It’s what happens when mechanical incentives change player behavior. The pressure exists whether or not anyone explicitly enforces it. That is what makes it systemic.
Nope, sorry, I still don't understand what you mean. It must be me, I know.
Since the majority seems to be in favour of the system (as per the polls), I can only assume that the systemic pressure you speak about is something a fraction of the population put on themselves.
The fact that you feel this pressure does not mean that it's not something you create yourself.
@preevious, you’re again individualizing what’s fundamentally a structural critique.
You’re treating systemic pressure as a matter of individual psychology—something a “fraction of the population puts on themselves”—rather than recognizing how metas form and normalize. No one is saying ZOS is mandating builds, nor that every player is hostile. That was never the argument.
The argument is that when the ceiling rises, the floor does too. Over time, this changes social expectations. We’ve seen it repeatedly in ESO: hybridization, Oakensoul, light attack weaving, parse culture. These shifts were not about “a few players choosing to feel pressured.” They reshaped the collective baseline, and in doing so, redefined what was considered “viable” even for casual content.
It’s fine to say the pressure doesn’t bother you. But dismissing that experience as self-inflicted ignores how MMOs, by design, operate on comparative performance and visibility. If you think performance norms only emerge from personal insecurity, then you have misunderstood the medium.
Whether you feel it or not, the pressure is real—and predictable. It’s how systems produce outcomes. That’s what makes it systemic.Edited by sans-culottes on 31 May 2025 18:275 -
preevious✭✭✭✭✭
✭sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.
So, community wide, it seems like a good change.
Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.
Consider this :
A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.
So much for "play it your way" then....
Being forced to play a specific build in order to be competitive is the antithesis of of everything the Elder Scrolls franchise embodies regarding character builds.
When the best choice is the competitive choice then the player has no choice in their build if they intend on being competitive.
Subclassing is literally the opposite of freedom.
One might argue that it's also incredibly "play your way" friendly.
Competitivity is only an issue with score-pushing guilds, and those teams are already pretty formatted with little place for freedom, anyway.
For the vast majority of players, it will indeed increase freedom a big deal, increase diversity, and allow those not really good at the game to get better.
I, for one, don't really care about being "the most competitive'. I don't want to join an high-end guild, and perform adequately in any content. So, I don't feel pressured into a specific build.
I'm sorry for those who do, but as soon as they realise nobody ask for those extra 5K DPS, they will stop caring.
Also; the elder scroll franchise is really not the antithesis of what you say.
Take morriwind, for exemple : play as a mage, or be less powerfull.
In skyrim, play a stealth archer, or be comically underpowered as a mage ..
No, being competitve goes far FAR beyond score pushing guilds. One needs to be competitve in the daily random Vet. I can't count how many times I was abused by another player for "not pulling my weight" even though my damage output far exceeded what was necessary in the run.
The need to be on par with ones peers in any mmorpg is paramount as a plethora of MMORPG's over the past 20 years have showed us.
Subclassing is the illusion of choice as @sans-culottes points out.
Ah, well, let's agree to disagree, then. I don't think it's paramount, nor will it ever be, ever in veteran content, save for trifectas and such.
I still believe that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, but you do you.
i'm sorry you've been bullied by other players. Never happened to me, even when I was the least damaging DPS. However, I can understand I would not like it.
Cheers.
It’s genuinely impressive how easily you dismiss what’s been a widespread player experience as “making a mountain out of a molehill.” You say it’s “never happened” to you, which is fine. But that’s an anecdote, not an argument.
The entire point @Pixiepumpkin made is that pressure to conform to escalating damage standards is not limited to trifectas or score pushing guilds. It’s embedded in everyday play: random vet queues, casual progression groups, even world bosses. Subclassing doesn’t remove that pressure; it exacerbates it by introducing a new performance ceiling that will, inevitably, become the new floor in many players’ eyes.
Saying “you do you” while implying someone else’s experience is exaggerated is not empathy. It’s a polite brush-off. And while that may feel cordial to write, it lands as dismissive.
Ah, well, I'm sorry if it felt dismissive. It wasn't my intention. And I really am sorry for your poor experiences.
However, I just genuinely think that :
1) Multiclassing will increase the ceiling, yes. Does the game need that? No, it doesn't. That's a point where I fully agree with you guys
2) Multiclassing will increase the floor, too. Does the game need that? Yes, probably .. more competent people around equals more fun.
3) Will one player be rejected because he multiclassed into aedric spear instead of assassination? I don't think so. There will be a bajillion ways to increase your damage, and no one shall bully you into taking one instead of an other.
The community as a whole is pretty nice, I think.
And I think multiclassing will allow for a variety of build, all being equally capable to clear any content.
Keep faith !
That response is well-meaning, but it completely misses the structural nature of the critique. No one is saying subclassing is bad because someone will personally be “bullied” for choosing Aedric Spear over Assassination. That’s a strawman.
The actual point—clearly laid out by multiple posters—is that subclassing introduces systemic pressure by elevating the performance ceiling. And when that happens, over time, the perception of what is “baseline” performance shifts too. This isn’t theoretical. It’s happened with every major power creep shift in this game, from light attack weaving to hybridization. Players are conditioned by visible performance gaps. And even if most people aren’t toxic, enough are that it creates a chilling effect for anyone not following the new meta.
You’re speaking from an idealized view of the community. But the posts you’re replying to are grounded in actual experience—not theory, not fear, but what players have lived through again and again.
Dismissing that as an emotional overreaction—however politely worded—is still a dismissal.
Do you realise that you say two opposite things?
"Subclassing introduce systemic pressure" and "no one will be bullied for being suboptimal" ...
If you are confident that it's a strawman, that means you are confident that no one will be rejected, or at worst that it will be edge cases. Then, what systemic pressure do you talk about?
Sure, some people WILL feel obligated to go fetch 5k extra DPS, yes. It will happen.
And those will be funeled towards the optimal choices ... exactly as they are now.
The rest are free, exactly as they are now. Do not put something you feel in the head of the rest of the community, right?
So, stop creating villains in your narrative.
@preevious, you’re misunderstanding the nature of systemic pressure.
No one is “creating villains.” What we’re describing is how systems shape behavior, regardless of whether any individual player is directly toxic about it.
Your reply conflates two different things: individual hostility and structural expectations. You’re saying, essentially, “If no one is bullying you, then there’s no issue.” That misses the argument entirely.
Performance floors are shaped over time by performance ceilings. That’s how metas evolve. When subclassing raises the ceiling, it redefines what counts as “normal,” even in non-elite content. You can already see this in how players treat heavy attack builds or hybrid stats. Players who once flew under the radar are now benched or kicked for doing less DPS, even in random vet dungeons.
No villain is needed for this. Just a few shifts in expectation and enough players chasing optimality.
This isn’t contradiction. It’s what happens when mechanical incentives change player behavior. The pressure exists whether or not anyone explicitly enforces it. That is what makes it systemic.
Nope, sorry, I still don't understand what you mean. It must be me, I know.
Since the majority seems to be in favour of the system (as per the polls), I can only assume that the systemic pressure you speak about is something a fraction of the population put on themselves.
The fact that you feel this pressure does not mean that it's not something you create yourself.
@preevious, you’re again individualizing what’s fundamentally a structural critique.
You’re treating systemic pressure as a matter of individual psychology—something a “fraction of the population puts on themselves”—rather than recognizing how metas form and normalize. No one is saying ZOS is mandating builds, nor that every player is hostile. That was never the argument.
The argument is that when the ceiling rises, the floor does too. Over time, this changes social expectations. We’ve seen it repeatedly in ESO: hybridization, Oakensoul, light attack weaving, parse culture. These shifts were not about “a few players choosing to feel pressured.” They reshaped the collective baseline, and in doing so, redefined what was considered “viable” even for casual content.
It’s fine to say the pressure doesn’t bother you. But dismissing that experience as self-inflicted ignores how MMOs, by design, operate on comparative performance and visibility. If you think performance norms only emerge from personal insecurity, then you have misunderstood the medium.
Whether you feel it or not, the pressure is real—and predictable. It’s how systems produce outcomes. That’s what makes it systemic.
1 -
Pixiepumpkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »Pixiepumpkin wrote: »So, there is a poll that gives 60% of positive reaction to the change, and baybe 10% of neutral opinion.
So, community wide, it seems like a good change.
Most people adverse to it will adapt as usual, and when another change comes along, are going to be against it.
That's a part of human nature to be reluctant to change, no matter how inevitable it may be.
Consider this :
A lot of players are complaining about balance issues .. nerf sorc , nerf arca, nerf dk ... everyone preaching from it's own chapel. It's litteraly unending, no matter the change they might do.
Well, maybe ZOS decided to implement multiclassing as an ultimate balancing act. If you find something OP, then use it .. maybe you'll find it's not really that OP in the end.
No reason to complain anymore.
So much for "play it your way" then....
Being forced to play a specific build in order to be competitive is the antithesis of of everything the Elder Scrolls franchise embodies regarding character builds.
When the best choice is the competitive choice then the player has no choice in their build if they intend on being competitive.
Subclassing is literally the opposite of freedom.
One might argue that it's also incredibly "play your way" friendly.
Competitivity is only an issue with score-pushing guilds, and those teams are already pretty formatted with little place for freedom, anyway.
For the vast majority of players, it will indeed increase freedom a big deal, increase diversity, and allow those not really good at the game to get better.
I, for one, don't really care about being "the most competitive'. I don't want to join an high-end guild, and perform adequately in any content. So, I don't feel pressured into a specific build.
I'm sorry for those who do, but as soon as they realise nobody ask for those extra 5K DPS, they will stop caring.
Also; the elder scroll franchise is really not the antithesis of what you say.
Take morriwind, for exemple : play as a mage, or be less powerfull.
In skyrim, play a stealth archer, or be comically underpowered as a mage ..
No, being competitve goes far FAR beyond score pushing guilds. One needs to be competitve in the daily random Vet. I can't count how many times I was abused by another player for "not pulling my weight" even though my damage output far exceeded what was necessary in the run.
The need to be on par with ones peers in any mmorpg is paramount as a plethora of MMORPG's over the past 20 years have showed us.
Subclassing is the illusion of choice as @sans-culottes points out.
Ah, well, let's agree to disagree, then. I don't think it's paramount, nor will it ever be, ever in veteran content, save for trifectas and such.
I still believe that you're making a mountain out of a molehill, but you do you.
i'm sorry you've been bullied by other players. Never happened to me, even when I was the least damaging DPS. However, I can understand I would not like it.
Cheers.
It’s genuinely impressive how easily you dismiss what’s been a widespread player experience as “making a mountain out of a molehill.” You say it’s “never happened” to you, which is fine. But that’s an anecdote, not an argument.
The entire point @Pixiepumpkin made is that pressure to conform to escalating damage standards is not limited to trifectas or score pushing guilds. It’s embedded in everyday play: random vet queues, casual progression groups, even world bosses. Subclassing doesn’t remove that pressure; it exacerbates it by introducing a new performance ceiling that will, inevitably, become the new floor in many players’ eyes.
Saying “you do you” while implying someone else’s experience is exaggerated is not empathy. It’s a polite brush-off. And while that may feel cordial to write, it lands as dismissive.
Ah, well, I'm sorry if it felt dismissive. It wasn't my intention. And I really am sorry for your poor experiences.
However, I just genuinely think that :
1) Multiclassing will increase the ceiling, yes. Does the game need that? No, it doesn't. That's a point where I fully agree with you guys
2) Multiclassing will increase the floor, too. Does the game need that? Yes, probably .. more competent people around equals more fun.
3) Will one player be rejected because he multiclassed into aedric spear instead of assassination? I don't think so. There will be a bajillion ways to increase your damage, and no one shall bully you into taking one instead of an other.
The community as a whole is pretty nice, I think.
And I think multiclassing will allow for a variety of build, all being equally capable to clear any content.
Keep faith !
That response is well-meaning, but it completely misses the structural nature of the critique. No one is saying subclassing is bad because someone will personally be “bullied” for choosing Aedric Spear over Assassination. That’s a strawman.
The actual point—clearly laid out by multiple posters—is that subclassing introduces systemic pressure by elevating the performance ceiling. And when that happens, over time, the perception of what is “baseline” performance shifts too. This isn’t theoretical. It’s happened with every major power creep shift in this game, from light attack weaving to hybridization. Players are conditioned by visible performance gaps. And even if most people aren’t toxic, enough are that it creates a chilling effect for anyone not following the new meta.
You’re speaking from an idealized view of the community. But the posts you’re replying to are grounded in actual experience—not theory, not fear, but what players have lived through again and again.
Dismissing that as an emotional overreaction—however politely worded—is still a dismissal.
Do you realise that you say two opposite things?
"Subclassing introduce systemic pressure" and "no one will be bullied for being suboptimal" ...
If you are confident that it's a strawman, that means you are confident that no one will be rejected, or at worst that it will be edge cases. Then, what systemic pressure do you talk about?
Sure, some people WILL feel obligated to go fetch 5k extra DPS, yes. It will happen.
And those will be funeled towards the optimal choices ... exactly as they are now.
The rest are free, exactly as they are now. Do not put something you feel in the head of the rest of the community, right?
So, stop creating villains in your narrative.
@preevious, you’re misunderstanding the nature of systemic pressure.
No one is “creating villains.” What we’re describing is how systems shape behavior, regardless of whether any individual player is directly toxic about it.
Your reply conflates two different things: individual hostility and structural expectations. You’re saying, essentially, “If no one is bullying you, then there’s no issue.” That misses the argument entirely.
Performance floors are shaped over time by performance ceilings. That’s how metas evolve. When subclassing raises the ceiling, it redefines what counts as “normal,” even in non-elite content. You can already see this in how players treat heavy attack builds or hybrid stats. Players who once flew under the radar are now benched or kicked for doing less DPS, even in random vet dungeons.
No villain is needed for this. Just a few shifts in expectation and enough players chasing optimality.
This isn’t contradiction. It’s what happens when mechanical incentives change player behavior. The pressure exists whether or not anyone explicitly enforces it. That is what makes it systemic.
Nope, sorry, I still don't understand what you mean. It must be me, I know.
Since the majority seems to be in favour of the system (as per the polls), I can only assume that the systemic pressure you speak about is something a fraction of the population put on themselves.
The fact that you feel this pressure does not mean that it's not something you create yourself.
Ok. Lets word this a bit differently.
The lower floor and higher ceiling that subclassing will bring to ESO creates greater expectations by the people onwards to the ceiiling that the people on the floor can not meet.
When the people on the floor can not meet those expectations, they are shunned in the community. This is well documented in every online game that has existed since the inception of the internet and online gaming. Heck, even before online gaming this happened in LAN gaming.
I have experienced this multiple times as the low damage dealer in a group, and as a tank I have seen abuse directed at lower performing DPS by the other DPS.
When a fraction of the people can not meet the expectations set by the games design, another fraction of the people will abuse the other group.
Subclassing has shown on the PTS to create a massive damage disparity between "pure" classes and those who subclass. Over time, what we today see as "high DPS" will become "expected DPS" and many of those who can not meet it due to their playstyle offered by the games design will be abused.
Subclassing divides the community, does not bring it together.
Subclassing keeps players from engaging in content they paid for if they choose not to use the system (with good reason not to).
I could go on, but you should get the point by now.
"Class identity isn’t just about power or efficiency. It’s about symbolic clarity, mechanical cohesion, and a shared visual and tactical language between players." - sans-culottes4 -
francesinhalover✭✭✭✭✭
✭Even for People that don't like the idea...
People that did 90k pré subclass still do 90k now. But you can add 1 or 2 skills lines for passíves and increase the dmg. Its like having flawless dawnbreaker slotted for the 3% dmgI am @fluffypallascat pc eu if someone wants to play together
Shadow strike is the best cp passive ever!0