Subclassing has sucked the life out of patch 46

Elvenheart · May 19

SilverBride wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I wouldn't be against subclassing if it wasn't for the nerfs making my pure class Characters less effective now.

Character identity means a lot to me, and my Characters' class was the biggest part of who they are. Having to destroy their sense of identity or just accept being a weaker version of who they once were is NOT acceptable.

This is fast becoming a deal breaker for me.

If they didn't tell you about the nerfs in the patch notes it's unlikely you would notice them. That's how small they are.

Then why do them at all?

My guess is that the nerfs affect the actual class in a small way but are things that could have been abused when mixed with skills from other classes. However, they have proven that they could have done them in such a way by simply adding a tag like “When Subclassing…” or other ways to have made the nerf only affect other class skills instead of the class they are a part of. They need to go back and give this treatment to any of the changes they have made so they will not affect the original class.

Soarora · May 19

I don't really see hype, but I don't think I ever do.

Desiato · May 19

SilverBride wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I think it's the mid-tier 30+ trial player that is meh about another upheaval and the largest injection of power to the game ever. The younger players seem more excited.

Younger by age or by time in game?

I'm generalizing based on age, but of course it's much more nuanced than that. I think the main factor is how much time and energy one has for ESO and the time it's going to take for the new meta to shake out, combined with the time and tedium to adapt to it.

And then there is uncertainty about what the gameplay will look like after all this happens. I mean, if we're not playing trials for interesting mechs, then what's the point? I ask because drastic increases in power render many mechs irrelevant. I don't want to play an end game that is just a dps check over and over again.

SilverBride · May 19

Desiato wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I think it's the mid-tier 30+ trial player that is meh about another upheaval and the largest injection of power to the game ever. The younger players seem more excited.

Younger by age or by time in game?

I'm generalizing based on age, but of course it's much more nuanced than that. I think the main factor is how much time and energy one has for ESO and the time it's going to take for the new meta to shake out, combined with the time and tedium to adapt to it.

We don't know how old a player is unless they specifically announce it. Activities we participate in are based on our interests in them, not our ages.

Desiato · May 19

SilverBride wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Desiato wrote: »

I think it's the mid-tier 30+ trial player that is meh about another upheaval and the largest injection of power to the game ever. The younger players seem more excited.

Younger by age or by time in game?

I'm generalizing based on age, but of course it's much more nuanced than that. I think the main factor is how much time and energy one has for ESO and the time it's going to take for the new meta to shake out, combined with the time and tedium to adapt to it.

We don't know how old a player is unless they specifically announce it. Activities we participate in are based on our interests in them, not our ages.

I have been very clear about the fact I am generalizing and that it is more nuanced than that. And, actually, I do know the approximate age of many of the players I have played with. There are a lot of greybeards in this game.

To be even more clear, I am not attempting to speak for anyone else, I am simply sharing my observations.

Jierdanit · May 19

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Subclassing has given build PvP new life at a time it desperately needed it. The live meta is so stale, while PTS duels are still active over a month in. I can't remember the last time PvP'ers were this into the PTS. As I've mentioned in other threads, the biggest PvP pain points are going to be double spectral bows, and the continued existence of Rushing Agony. Maybe some annoying ranged gank build will show up, but we've had plenty of those over the years without subclassing.

I have been dueling on the PTS a lot.

I still think subclassing is an absolutely horrible decision and should never be put into the game.
Just because a lot of people are testing on PTS doesnt mean they like it. It just means that subclassing is probably the single biggest change the game ever got, so people have to try and figure out how they will play next patch.

From what I see from my friends on live subclassing has rather taken more live from PvP at a point where its already almost dead. Several people i know have said that they will most likely quit the game when subclassing comes out. A few have already quit the game just because it was announced.

icapital · May 19

"I have 3 friends who went silent and aren't talking about ESO, subclassing bad"

You see how anecdotal evidence works? it doesn't.

The thing isn't even out yet and people already stating things as fact. No one will know the impacts until we have had time to assess the data so speculation about it in the meantime is inconsequential.

Iriidius · May 19

Sarannah wrote: »

Personally I think subclassing will be a great addition to the game, maybe it will even allow ZOS to unnerf everything that was nerfed over the years. That would bring the flavor to all the trimmed class abilities back.

But I do share some of the concerns some players have stated, like pure classes no longer being 'good'. As players can basically swap bad skilllines for powerful ones from another class. I am really curious to see how ZOS handles this.

My guess for why players aren't discussing U46 in discords(never used discord myself), is because subclassing is so big and impactful, that there is simply too much to discuss about it.

As long as I can stack my master writs for years to come, I will be happy! (hopefully ZOS makes different envelope types for the difficulties purple/golden, otherwise trying to get writ vouchers is going to be a major pain)

PS: Haven't been on the PTS, never have. As I do not like knowing/seeing things in advance.

ZoS just nerfed more things in preparation for subclassing and will not go back on any nerf even if the reasons have become irrelevant long ago.

DK passives battleroar and combustion got nerfed despite the skilllines not even beeing used in most subclassed builds.
DK is bad class for subclassing with skilllines more dependent on each other than for other classes so it is better played as pure class and with incoming nerf not at all.

Dojohoda · May 19

It's hard to get excited over them rearranging the furniture to allow us to mix up some class skills.

Here is a squirrel-level-super-secret clip featuring a pure class against a tri-class.

j/k

Anyhoo, uh, if I participate in this, I will have to read up on class passives and stuff. I'm already behind, I just know it.

RealLoveBVB · May 19

MJallday wrote: »

It hasnt arrived yet. why would it "suck the life out"?

Usually every update got something exciting or nice. May it be scribing, antiquities, stickerbook, armory, new cps etc...

Now we got an overpriced DLC, which is a half scam because of the dungeon and ESO+ issue...
And subclasses, which nobody asked for, which will kill class identity, something that was part of the whole game, that is now a soup of random spells.

It was also the first time, that when I watched the announcement stream, that i was fully disappointed and my motivation for that game turned immediately to zero.

Erickson9610 · May 20

SilverBride wrote: »

I wouldn't be against subclassing if it wasn't for the nerfs making my pure class Characters less effective now.

Character identity means a lot to me, and my Characters' class was the biggest part of who they are. Having to destroy their sense of identity or just accept being a weaker version of who they once were is NOT acceptable.

This is fast becoming a deal breaker for me.

How is this any different from Classes being nerfed before Subclassing was introduced? Sure, not everyone wants to use Subclassing, but it's no different from Classes being nerfed for PvE or PvP reasons — we may not even want to touch PvE or PvP and we're still affected by those changes.

SilverBride · May 20

Erickson9610 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I wouldn't be against subclassing if it wasn't for the nerfs making my pure class Characters less effective now.

Character identity means a lot to me, and my Characters' class was the biggest part of who they are. Having to destroy their sense of identity or just accept being a weaker version of who they once were is NOT acceptable.

This is fast becoming a deal breaker for me.

How is this any different from Classes being nerfed before Subclassing was introduced? Sure, not everyone wants to use Subclassing, but it's no different from Classes being nerfed for PvE or PvP reasons — we may not even want to touch PvE or PvP and we're still affected by those changes.

Classes being nerfed before was just that. It wasn't dumping all the skills from all the classes into a pile to mix and match however, and nerfing pure classes to make that possible, whether we want to participate or not.

Personofsecrets · May 20

I've played DK since 2015. I'm not interested in using tools from the other classes, but I know that I'll have to.

It's sort of disturbing to have the game change in such a huge way. It's not just a massive change, but one that will muddy the waters which is difficult for low information players such as myself. This is also a change that is massive for it's impact of destroying class identity. I actually think that a classless game is hypothetically superior to a class based gmae. That said, ESO has been a class based game with playstyles built around that fact, so it's like the rug is being pulled out from under me. It's also curious how homogenization has been creeping into the game via powerful classes, skill sribing, and now multiclassing, but where are the things that people asked for such as picking their own racial passives, spell crafting, or a new weapon line?

Anyhow, that's that. Oh well.

ImmortalCX · May 20

The endgame players who really love the game have found a build that is unique, exclusive, and powerful.

With subclassing, anyone can copy their build. No wonder they arent interested.

I think this patch destroyed something fundamental to why ppl play mmos.

SilverBride · May 20

ImmortalCX wrote: »

I think this patch destroyed something fundamental to why ppl play mmos.

This.

cuddles_with_wroble · May 20

ImmortalCX wrote: »

The endgame players who really love the game have found a build that is unique, exclusive, and powerful.

With subclassing, anyone can copy their build. No wonder they arent interested.

I think this patch destroyed something fundamental to why ppl play mmos.

You must be new bcs everyone has been running the same combo of 5 or 6 different sets for years now and you could always see what the best players run if you checked eso logs or joined any of the big trials discords.

ZhuJiuyin · May 20

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

everyone has been running the same combo of 5 or 6 different sets for years now

Yes, there will be less meta in U46 and diversity will be stifled further.
It is already clear that the one who will dominate PVE in U46 will be
Assassination and Herald of the Tome, especially Assassination, not only provide so much Critical, Critical Damage and Weapon and Spell Damage, but also fast ultimate point acquisition from Soul Harvest. In order to prevent players from obtaining ultimate points too quickly, ZOS deliberately weakened PVE sets such as Elnofe and Plunderer, but let go of such a conspicuous elephant as Soul Harvest, which is really incomprehensible.
The preference for a particular class is very obvious in U46.

Thorncrypt · May 20

By the looks of things... people will get to have fun with OP and broken builds for a couple of months before they are inevitably nerfed into oblivion and forgotten. Then they will move on to the next OP combo until that too is nerfed. Rinse and repeat.

ApoAlaia · May 20

Thorncrypt wrote: »

By the looks of things... people will get to have fun [SNIP]

Yep, looks like unless they do something drastic in the next couple of weeks there will be room left for fun.

Kinda looking forward to it tbh.

Won't be as fun as it was clearing vCR+3 with a WW post-Greymoor launch I think, but still, I will take fun when it comes my way for as long as is available.

However as you keenly point out, fun hardly ever lasts.

As you can see in this thread 'fun' is very relative, finding something that is enough 'fun' for enough people is almost an impossibility.

Keeping people frustrated and wanting and telling them that this is what real fun is though, that is a lot more practical.

cuddles_with_wroble · May 20

ZhuJiuyin wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

everyone has been running the same combo of 5 or 6 different sets for years now

Yes, there will be less meta in U46 and diversity will be stifled further.
It is already clear that the one who will dominate PVE in U46 will be
Assassination and Herald of the Tome, especially Assassination, not only provide so much Critical, Critical Damage and Weapon and Spell Damage, but also fast ultimate point acquisition from Soul Harvest. In order to prevent players from obtaining ultimate points too quickly, ZOS deliberately weakened PVE sets such as Elnofe and Plunderer, but let go of such a conspicuous elephant as Soul Harvest, which is really incomprehensible.
The preference for a particular class is very obvious in U46.

Classic zos behavior nerfing something that’s not even the issue

Lalothen · May 20

Daoin wrote: »

but unless you enjoy forst person shooters, the pickings of greener pastures are pretty slim to zero for gaming at the moment, so in reality, what better time for sweeping changes than now ?

I wouldn't say this at all. Even games as old as - or older than - ESO have more appeal, and I don't think subclassing is really going to change that in any substantive way. For example I've been having a blast re-learning GW2 over the past 6 months, and each class actually FEELS and PLAYS differently, while also having several viable weapon, gear & spec combos for each of the trinity roles. Class-specific mechanics - like mesmer's clone & shatter skills, elementalist's elemental attunements, etc - further add to this (that's not even getting into elite specs that often change those mechanics as well). The learning curve for different classes & builds varies hugely too, so if you want a simple route to being effective in your role you've got several viable options, while if you prefer a challenge then there are builds that have you playing your keyboard like a piano (Elementalist in particular, is like this).

Subclassing, while on the surface ostensibly promoting build diversity (a more "play your way" evolution) is just going to rapidly settle into another meta involving select skill lines, with "pure" builds & non-meta options ending up more blatantly inferior - at least for players who care about the effectiveness of their builds, and are conscious of performing their role to the best of their abilities in group play. Sure, superficially we may see a greater spread of classes being represented in group content (and that may be reflected on leaderboards too) - but peel back the surface layer and the homogeneity will be directly underneath, same as always.

Then again most players aren't too concerned about streamlining their builds or chasing challenging group achievements, so for them subclassing is a win I suppose. Personally, I simply cannot get excited about it despite being a theorycrafter of off-meta builds... I guess I'm too conscious of the fact that several "Elephants of Homogeneity" will remain in the room when it comes to the whole "play your way" concept (class balance, stale gear choices, etc).

Iselin · May 20

I'm an OG player who has been away from the game for 2.5 yrs and only returned because subclassing brings the game closer than it has ever been to the “build your own class” game I've always wanted.

I'm actually really surprised at the amount of anticipatory panic I've been seeing in this forum and Reddit.

I've been on the PTS a bit playing both my copied from live “pure” classes and subclassed max level new character. I see no reason to fear update 46.

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

Sorry for my positivity.

daemondamian · May 20

I can see how it might have done in regards to DPS builds and metas *but*

as someone with 14 different characters on all classes I love subclassing as I have made entirely new different solo builds on the pts and am excited to play them all again because of how unique they are and fun to play as well as more effective.

Having said that there are several skill lines that have seemed more preferential (as well two set combos including a new set) and I hope they don't get nerfed because of that.

In particular for me those have been Herald of the Tome (weapon damage, penetration etc), Gravelord and Bone Tyrant.

Additionally I didn't want to but ended up using HofT and Pragmatic Fatecarver for my solo DK IA build
(with Azandar) simply because it was far better than other option and not just for dps.

RealLoveBVB · May 20

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

daemondamian · May 20

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Um dont you still have to do like mechanics or simply just moving out of AOES? And if you just hold the left mouse button down permanently without doing other stuff you'll get killed unless it's overland (and not a dolmen or worldboss etc) or you already cast strong dots, buffs and or HoTs?

MJallday · May 20

Iselin wrote: »

I'm an OG player who has been away from the game for 2.5 yrs and only returned because subclassing brings the game closer than it has ever been to the “build your own class” game I've always wanted.

I'm actually really surprised at the amount of anticipatory panic I've been seeing in this forum and Reddit.

I've been on the PTS a bit playing both my copied from live “pure” classes and subclassed max level new character. I see no reason to fear update 46.

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

Sorry for my positivity.

100% this. We need to see and hear from the VAST majority of the player base form their opinion - Not a limited amount of vocal people who frequent the forums (quite a lot of which inexplicably frequent this forum but dont actually play the game)

the amount of scaremongering and negativity, particularly on this forum (but also discord and reddit) is bewildering. as far as i can see its simply based on a few people (mainly so called end gamers) and "popularist" streamers expressing their displeasure because suddenly their little club of elitist completion just got opened up .

The argument of "non purist" classes doesn't wash with me either - mainly because the classes when they were designed were non-lore anyway. so frankly if it theyd been setup this way in the past, no one would be complaining.

I respect the right for everyone to have an opinion, but the overwhelming panic being demonstrated - for example "oh its the end of the game, its another exodus etc" - is just a proper eyeball rolling inducing moment. particaully when it hasnt actually happened yet. its not even been released!

the more level headed amongst us should just treat most of these emotional comments with the contempt they deserve.

TLDR - wait for the thing to hit live. form your own opinions based on fact and your experience - not rumour and hearsay, stop being elitist and most of all actually try to enjoy the game!

Iselin · May 20

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

Vonnegut2506 · May 20

The only thing sucking the life out of U46 is the amount of whining about U46.

ApoAlaia · May 20

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

That just means that you are not trying hard enough... to not be 75.

Have you tried being 45 instead?

frogthroat · May 20

ApoAlaia wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

RealLoveBVB wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Can't wait for June 2 when I'll drop Dark Magic from my one-bar, Oakensoul, HA, Sorcerer and add Assassination to it.

That's also something I've noticed. Most of the subclassing fans are HA sorcs...

Really? Where are you getting that from? Rigorous scientific research like most other comments here?

It's not enough to have a lazy, cheesy semi-godlike build, where you just have to hold the left mouse button.

Sorry, but I don't play sweaty meta builds. Don't have that kind of finger dexterity any more at 75. And there's a bit more to it than just LMB, LOL.

That just means that you are not trying hard enough... to not be 75.

Have you tried being 45 instead?

PVP is pretty hard at that age, too. These young whippersnappers do insane burst combos faster than I can blink.