Prionyx wrote: »

Incap+spammable is guaranteed, but it's the lowest possible burst among all classes excluding arcanist

Have you played Assassin line on the PTS yourself?

Prionyx wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Can't wait for all those players who haven't read the PTS notes to assume the double spec bow is some new cheat going around... but in all seriousness, playing around the constant persistent threat of being two shotted by NB derivatives is simply not fun PvP, regardless of skill level. At best it warps the meta, at worst it kills BGs the way Rushing Agony killed Cyro. The rest of the line is loaded too, instant spammable that's stronger than cast time spammables, insane crit passives. It won't be a subclass meta, it'll be a NB meta.

I don't want to offend you but if you die to 2 arrows casted in a row it's 100% a skill issue, merciless is an instant cast projectile so it's impossible to guarantee a hit with it, you can't use it any viable combo like you can do with shalks or blastbones, it's just a pressure tool with additional WPD, making merciless stack up to 10 times solves the problem of it being bad at pressure, so it's completely logical that among all super strong abilities like shalks, blastbones or curse(or even POTL, though it's way worse than the previous 3 it's still way better than merciless) merciless is the one that's getting buffed. I'd personally prefer if one of it's morphs damage were nerfed by around 30-40% but had a delay on it, but that works too considering we have a subclassing now

“Nightblade has no burst”
-prionyx

All we need to know.

Yep. They think POTL is "way better than merciless."

Potl isn't way better but anything with delayed burst(except ulfsild of course) is better than merciless but potl would fit NB much better than merciless as NB is designed to be a burst class but doesn't have any class burst abilities, just very good ST ulti that could be combined really well with skills like shalks or BB, or potl too, yeah... Yeah merciless is good in killing low skills but why would any devs want to balance their game around low skills, it doesn't make any sence because you can kill low skills in any build on any class, and NB is far from best in doing so, don't need much damage to kill weak players, survivabilty is much more important here and NB has the worst survivability, I just don't understand why you complain about NB and not about wardens who have much better natural burst and better survivability

LOL you literally said it was way better.

I'm not complaining about NBs. It is my opinion that you are downplaying the potency of Merciless as so many players who have 15,000 hours played on one class constantly do. I'm totally fine with NBs having powerful skills because I think all classes should have them. But I do happen to agree with the OP. Because this skill's original design was that it could only be fired occasionally, thus justifying it high tooltip, now that it can be shotgunned, that is breaking ZOS's own standards of only being able to use these high burst skills intermittently. That's a complaint directed at that lack of consistency on ZOS's part, not about NBs per se. Besides, this is no longer a NB thing. I suspect a lot of 'Plars will using Merciless rather than POTL after the update because the former has superior killing potential.

As for Wardens, the main things that bothers me about them is the messaging of their charm is terrible and their health scaling heal. After years, ZOS is finally removing the cross heal component, but amazingly still think it's somehow weak and needs a single target buff. Maybe EU is different meta than PC/NA as the better Warden players here love to use the Sleet ultimate (often with Acuity), but I find I can counter that almost always as long as the awful Rush of Agony set isn't involved.

Prionyx wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

cuddles_with_wroble wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Can't wait for all those players who haven't read the PTS notes to assume the double spec bow is some new cheat going around... but in all seriousness, playing around the constant persistent threat of being two shotted by NB derivatives is simply not fun PvP, regardless of skill level. At best it warps the meta, at worst it kills BGs the way Rushing Agony killed Cyro. The rest of the line is loaded too, instant spammable that's stronger than cast time spammables, insane crit passives. It won't be a subclass meta, it'll be a NB meta.

I don't want to offend you but if you die to 2 arrows casted in a row it's 100% a skill issue, merciless is an instant cast projectile so it's impossible to guarantee a hit with it, you can't use it any viable combo like you can do with shalks or blastbones, it's just a pressure tool with additional WPD, making merciless stack up to 10 times solves the problem of it being bad at pressure, so it's completely logical that among all super strong abilities like shalks, blastbones or curce(or even POTL, though it's way worse than the previous 3 it's still way better than merciless) merciless is the one that's getting buffed. I'd personally prefer if one of it's morphs damage were nerfed by around 30-40% but had a delay on it, but that works too considering we have a subclassing now

i dont wanna offend you but merciless in indeed not at all a pressure skill and the wpd stacking it gives is just an added little bonus cherry on top. merciless is probably the single greatest burst skill in pvp and you for sure can guarantee a hit if you combo properly, not to mention on a good build this skill hits anywhere from 15 - 20k which makes your ability to instantly 1 tap someone is nearly unrivaled. the one saving grace is that they only have 1 bow so if you dodge it than your good but with them being able to load 2 shots their combo potential and mind games to 1 shot you goes thru the roof.

the point of the change is to make it easier on players in pve but in pvp this change will make make good players much harder to fight

How in the world is it "the greatest burst skill" if you can't burst with it whatsoever unless you center your build around it entirely(it will be ineffective, just a fun build). 15k hits? That's ridicilious compared to warden's ~12k shalks+ ~10k BFB which is 7k more and can be combined with DB for another ~14k. ~36k VS ~15k. So where is the burst?

"and you for sure can guarantee a hit if you combo properly" well tell me how you can guarantee it in a viable way(the one where it will not deal less damage than incap+bfb/concealed, basic NB combo without proc sets), guess I somehow didn't notice that proper combo after playing NB for 15000+ hours

Any meta hybrid brawler can hit those numbers, I get hit for 15 - 20k all the time even with rally and full impen.

And also you guarantee a hit by just knowing when someone isn’t ready for it, ideally you want the incap first for 20% damage but against good players sometimes you gotta switch it up to catch people.

Someone else also brought up a good point, where there’s 1 nightblade there’s 5 and when there’s more than 1 it becomes so hard to deal with

My normal combo is ulfnar -> incap -> bow -> surprise attack

But another really good way to catch people is to incap and then wait for the break free and if they roll you can medium weave and they will get hit by the bow right after the I frames fade. Off balance cc into bow is normally good enough to do 75% of someone hp tho

I should add that warden itself is mega overtuned and does bonkers lvls of damage right now with mechanical acuity northern storms so maybe it’s the second best burst outside of that

What you said is not a combo, it's just pressing 3 skills in a row, combo is shalks+db+bfb because if you hit db shalks and bfb are guaranteed to hit unlike merciless after incap, if you cast incap-bow-spammable bow gets dodged and spammable gets blocked right after, so just around 10-12k damage total, where is the burst you mentioned?

Also I wonder how you plan to cc someone 2 times in a row, perhaps I don't know something. Though merciless in off balance is super unreliable especially in current bfb meta where everyone permablocks, everyone can just wait for off balance to fall off(not to mention that using skills that proc off balance is directly nerfing yourself unless you play in a group or bg)

" if you cast incap-bow-spammable bow gets dodged and spammable gets blocked right after" well sure this can definitely happen but this is where the medium weave combo comes into play. the time it takes you to medium wave into a bow is the same time it takes someone to roll dodge and lose i frames, so in a world where you have 2 shots if you roll the first one than the second one hits you. now granted you can still perma block but at that point id just spam surprise attack until you attempt to do anything and then incap you the second you drop block.

you seem to not understand then just incap + bow landed on someone can 1 shot 99% of players so all you have to do is land 1 solid cc and get 1 of the 2 skills to crit and you win

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

I think ZOS should ignore PvP for this patch and the next. To focus on balancing class lines in themselves and not getting additionally restricted by PvP considerations would allow for enough developement time to get the base game in order and see what PvP cracks do with subclassing and if it actually does anything bad.

I have not only seen higher burst damage via Assassination, but also crazy tank and healer builds.

Subclassing might just turn out to be a blessing in disguise for PvP.

I think since we have Vengeance, and ZOS has promised to balance PVP separately, I don't think many people will complain even if Cyrodiil is in Vengeance mode for the entire U46.
Indeed, let subclassing focus on balancing PvE, and use the last few weeks to buff weaker, less attractive skill lines, such as Dark Magic, Aedric Spear, etc. This way, subclassing will not get out of control in PvP (because all of Cyrodiil is in Vengeance mode), but it can also ensure that "at least" subclassing is balanced in PvE.

Prionyx wrote: »

Yes, over a 500 duels. I actually pressed merciless less compared to live now that I can use shalks instead

Sounds to me more like high level duelers have adapted to countering spectral bow combos, or at least your spectral bow combos. Blastbones is way more toxic than bow in controlled duels, but will continue to be a non factor in open world thanks to its garbage AI getting lost all the time. Every single unexpected bow combo will threaten instant death, every single Asssassin can threaten these combos every few seconds, and you won't see them coming like in a duel.

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

I think ZOS should ignore PvP for this patch and the next. To focus on balancing class lines in themselves and not getting additionally restricted by PvP considerations would allow for enough developement time to get the base game in order and see what PvP cracks do with subclassing and if it actually does anything bad.

I have not only seen higher burst damage via Assassination, but also crazy tank and healer builds.

Subclassing might just turn out to be a blessing in disguise for PvP.

well said and very insightfull.

Joy_Division wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Can't wait for all those players who haven't read the PTS notes to assume the double spec bow is some new cheat going around... but in all seriousness, playing around the constant persistent threat of being two shotted by NB derivatives is simply not fun PvP, regardless of skill level. At best it warps the meta, at worst it kills BGs the way Rushing Agony killed Cyro. The rest of the line is loaded too, instant spammable that's stronger than cast time spammables, insane crit passives. It won't be a subclass meta, it'll be a NB meta.

I don't want to offend you but if you die to 2 arrows casted in a row it's 100% a skill issue, merciless is an instant cast projectile so it's impossible to guarantee a hit with it, you can't use it any viable combo like you can do with shalks or blastbones, it's just a pressure tool with additional WPD, making merciless stack up to 10 times solves the problem of it being bad at pressure, so it's completely logical that among all super strong abilities like shalks, blastbones or curse(or even POTL, though it's way worse than the previous 3 it's still way better than merciless) merciless is the one that's getting buffed. I'd personally prefer if one of it's morphs damage were nerfed by around 30-40% but had a delay on it, but that works too considering we have a subclassing now

“Nightblade has no burst”
-prionyx

All we need to know.

Yep. They think POTL is "way better than merciless."

Potl isn't way better but anything with delayed burst(except ulfsild of course) is better than merciless but potl would fit NB much better than merciless as NB is designed to be a burst class but doesn't have any class burst abilities, just very good ST ulti that could be combined really well with skills like shalks or BB, or potl too, yeah... Yeah merciless is good in killing low skills but why would any devs want to balance their game around low skills, it doesn't make any sence because you can kill low skills in any build on any class, and NB is far from best in doing so, don't need much damage to kill weak players, survivabilty is much more important here and NB has the worst survivability, I just don't understand why you complain about NB and not about wardens who have much better natural burst and better survivability

LOL you literally said it was way better.

I'm not complaining about NBs. It is my opinion that you are downplaying the potency of Merciless as so many players who have 15,000 hours played on one class constantly do. I'm totally fine with NBs having powerful skills because I think all classes should have them. But I do happen to agree with the OP. Because this skill's original design was that it could only be fired occasionally, thus justifying it high tooltip, now that it can be shotgunned, that is breaking ZOS's own standards of only being able to use these high burst skills intermittently. That's a complaint directed at that lack of consistency on ZOS's part, not about NBs per se. Besides, this is no longer a NB thing. I suspect a lot of 'Plars will using Merciless rather than POTL after the update because the former has superior killing potential.

As for Wardens, the main things that bothers me about them is the messaging of their charm is terrible and their health scaling heal. After years, ZOS is finally removing the cross heal component, but amazingly still think it's somehow weak and needs a single target buff. Maybe EU is different meta than PC/NA as the better Warden players here love to use the Sleet ultimate (often with Acuity), but I find I can counter that almost always as long as the awful Rush of Agony set isn't involved.

Northern being overpowered ulti is a different story, of course it's better than db, I use db+shalks+bfb as an example just to show what is a good burst really

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

Bow in meele range is undodgable if fired after sucsesfully cc'ing a target. Which makes it as a part of unavoidable burst if used with fossilize or meteor+jav (those are guaranteed stuns btw, which means you cant block or roll them)



As you might see in my example (cheked on live), in full melee range (basicly being on top of the target) it takes 0.375 ms on average to connect projectile with the target. In max melee range (7m) it takes 0.530 ms on average to connect, and rolling right after break free takes 0.600 ms on average.

Honestly, it seems like you never played anything outside of nb ganker. People learned to dodge incap+bow from invis, and if you dont have any more tricks up your sleeve thats on you, and it doesnt make double spec bow less OP, just beacuse you cant set it up properly.

You can only use bow in 1 second after stun, so it hits in 1375 ms, why are you soo eager to talk about things you don't understand at all? If you can't dodge bow after instant stuns(let alone delayed ones like incap) you are 100% a very bad player. 600ms rolling after break free? What??? Do you have 400ms reaction time? If you need 600ms to roll dodge it just shows how inexperienced you are

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Prionyx wrote: »

Yes, over a 500 duels. I actually pressed merciless less compared to live now that I can use shalks instead

Sounds to me more like high level duelers have adapted to countering spectral bow combos, or at least your spectral bow combos. Blastbones is way more toxic than bow in controlled duels, but will continue to be a non factor in open world thanks to its garbage AI getting lost all the time. Every single unexpected bow combo will threaten instant death, every single Asssassin can threaten these combos every few seconds, and you won't see them coming like in a duel.

The problem is no combo will work good without ultimate, might be only good as a pressure tool but you need an ulti to kill a good player, and you can't combine bow with burst ultis... At all. Now if you use swarming scion it's a different story, but at this point it's completely all about pressure

Prionyx wrote: »

You can only use bow in 1 second after stun, so it hits in 1375 ms, why are you soo eager to talk about things you don't understand at all? If you can't dodge bow after instant stuns(let alone delayed ones like incap) you are 100% a very bad player. 600ms rolling after break free? What??? Do you have 400ms reaction time? If you need 600ms to roll dodge it just shows how inexperienced you are

where did you get "1 second after a stun"? GCD is 0.5 sec, incap has 0.4 sec cast time wich leaves you with 100 ms downtime between incap stunning the target and ability to fire merciless, so its still 375 + 100 = 475. 600 ms comes from gcd on core combat actions (roll/breakfree/block) as well as playing a full break free animation, and startup animation of rolldodge. When you press breakfree and roll simoultaniously your actions are stored, and played back to back without the dalay that might be caused by reaction time.

I didnt mention ping in those equation, but it also can contribute to timings and can be a deciding factor if you skill is going to connect or not.
Also, several patches ago ZoS sped up specbow projectile and added a heal to it so it might be usable as a part of guaranteed burst from cc in melee range.

by the way, based on tour logic, how is bfb guaranteed after a stun if you cant perform any action for 1 second after stunning someone? The question is rithorical, and you dosnt have to answer that. No sense in agrguing with salty gankblades, who doesnt know basic game mechanics.

Well Prionyx, sounds like this skill is so many millions of miles beneath your player tier, I don't know why you care about it at all? Why are you wasting your time playing against the sort of noobs that Merciless is worth slotting to fight?

You have nothing but blocked and dodged Spec Bows but you still slot the skill?

Prionyx wrote: »

"GCD Is 0.5 sec" that's all we need to know about your game knowledge, don't even write anything here please, you are absolutely clueless about basic elements of the game. 600ms GCD on core skills? So you claim that we can't use la or block or bash with dodge simultaneously? That's ridiculous

If you can't dodge merciless you are just absolutely unexperienced. Period. I easily dodge it even on pts with 250 ping, it's just a massive skill issue on your side, stop trying to justify your low skill by saying things you don't understand

My man making an asumptions without clearly reading into things I say.
Lets see what we got this time.
After double checking, yes I was wrong, GCD between active skills is 1 sec. Still, firing bow after stun is guaranteed is you stun a offbalanced target with heavy attack:

6.268-6,715 = -0,447.
Second, dont put words in mouth. I said that you cant do those from breakfree. LA, bashes, block and roll dodge have a separate GCD from skill GCD. Also they have seperate GCD from each other, but not from breaking free. In fact you cant perform any action immdiatly with breaking free animation, as breaking free puts you on a ~0,5 GCD for each and every action in the game.
And yes I can absolutly dodge merciless if its fired from neutral, when fired after CC Iam, and everyone else is in mercy of ZoS servers and their internet provider. Sometimes you can dodge it out of break free, sometimes you cant, and definately cant dodge it out of break free if you had been stuned by heavy attack/medium weave into off-balance.

Also calling out on everyone skills, yeah, such a salty little salty kid behaviour. Not a good look, my man.

People were asking for a buff to DK scales and crystallized shield - and the Devs delivered...by making projectiles more dangerous^^.

Jokes aside, I think this change is very divisive and it wasn't necessary at all to create such a problem for the initial launch of subclassing.

If this goes live, it's gonna be a trash fire of casuals who didn't read the notes making "cheat" accusations every time they get nuked by a double spec bow, nevermind all the players quietly quitting in disgust because they aren't sweaty enough to dodge instakills every 5 seconds 100% of their game session. This will kill interest in smallscale for many players.