I hate AwA

heaven13 · April 22

sans-culottes wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

@sans-culottes Have you read my comment #50 here? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8303343/#Comment_8303343

There's an immense amount of achievement impossible to track.

I did read it, yes, and my response was directly addressing your concerns. I’m still unclear on what, specifically, you’re finding untrackable.

The examples you gave—battleground kills, Crazy King objectives, delves, fishing progress, dungeon boss kills—are all things you can still do and repeat on alts. If what you’re asking for is an interface that better tracks these things per character, that’s a request for improved UI and progression transparency. That’s a reasonable suggestion. But that’s a separate issue from account-wide achievements themselves, which don’t stop you from replaying or challenging yourself again. They simply consolidate the recognition for those challenges across your account.

In short, nothing in the current system prevents you from continuing to do what you’ve always done. The achievements may not pop again, but the gameplay is still there, and so is your agency to take it on.

AzuraFan wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Likewise, the examples about dolmens, delves, or Master Angler are really concerns about map fog, exploration indicators, and collection logs. Those systems could certainly be improved. However, tying the problem back to account-wide achievements seems misplaced.

Not misplaced, because those problems didn't exist before AwA. Before AwA, the map was clean when an alt entered a zone for the first time. When AwA was introduced, the map problems (which include dolmens, delves, WBs, etc.) came along with it. I don't know why it had to be that way, unless whatever tracks achievements is tied to the map somehow. So they are definitely tied together - AwA and the map problem.

Finally, if tracking specific kills or progression on alts is important, then it is worth advocating for better UI tools or optional character-specific toggles,

The first thing players asked for when they saw the abomination that was called AwA was to make it optional, or to have toggles. Lots of alternative ways were suggested. Maybe you weren't around when it was introduced, or weren't on the forums?

Like I've said, I like AwA in theory, for the grindy and difficult achievements. But making exploration and story quest achievements account wide, and destroying the map for alts, wasn't necessary at all.

That’s an odd assumption to make. My forum account may be relatively recent, but I’ve been playing ESO since 2014. I remember the days before the Champion System, before the Justice System, before One Tamriel. None of this is new to me.

The “you must be new” response is a common rhetorical deflection. It avoids engaging with the argument itself and instead tries to undermine the speaker. But even if I were new, would that automatically invalidate the point? Players with fresh perspectives are just as entitled to raise concerns or critiques. Either the argument stands on its own or it doesn’t. Longevity in a game is not a substitute for logic.

So to reiterate: Account-wide achievements do not prevent anyone from re-experiencing content, nor do they preclude challenge. The concern about tracking could absolutely be resolved by better UI tools or optional character-level toggles. But the gameplay remains intact; and if someone genuinely enjoys it, then they’ll still enjoy it without a redundant pop-up.

You're telling us we shouldn't be upset with AwA and instead should advocate for better UI/tracking. All @AzuraFan was attempting to point out is that we DID, in fact, do just that, before AwA was even released. I don't think they were trying to undermine you, but point out that many of us did try to do what you're suggesting and we were met with deaf ears. The promised Q&A was never even released. So yeah, many of us are unhappy with AwA not because we just watched it happen and complained afterwards but specifically because we tried to make it better and suggest reasonable solutions to the problems we saw coming and were ignored.

sans-culottes · April 22

Dragonnord wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

I did read it, yes, and my response was directly addressing your concerns. I’m still unclear on what, specifically, you’re finding untrackable.

The examples you gave—battleground kills, Crazy King objectives, delves, fishing progress, dungeon boss kills—are all things you can still do and repeat on alts. If what you’re asking for is an interface that better tracks these things per character, that’s a request for improved UI and progression transparency. That’s a reasonable suggestion. But that’s a separate issue from account-wide achievements themselves, which don’t stop you from replaying or challenging yourself again. They simply consolidate the recognition for those challenges across your account.

In short, nothing in the current system prevents you from continuing to do what you’ve always done. The achievements may not pop again, but the gameplay is still there, and so is your agency to take it on.

I'm sorry, but you clearly don't understand the situation. Even if you say you do, you don't.

There's a immense amount of players that left and/or are not using alts anymore because of AwA.

Not acknowledging that is a clear proof of not understanding it.

That’s a curious position to take. Disagreeing with me is one thing, but suggesting that I “don’t understand” the issue simply because I interpret it differently isn’t a rebuttal but a dismissal.

I’ve read your points and responded to them in good faith, and I’ve also acknowledged where UI improvements could meaningfully support those who want to track character-level progress. But we should be able to distinguish between issues of user interface, data presentation, and the concept of account-wide achievements itself.

Saying that people left the game or stopped playing alts because of AwA may well be true in individual cases, but without actual usage data from ZOS, it’s speculative to claim it represents an “immense amount.” Either way, it’s entirely possible to advocate for more character-specific tools without arguing that AwA should be undone entirely.

AzuraFan · April 22

sans-culottes wrote: »

The “you must be new” response is a common rhetorical deflection. It avoids engaging with the argument itself and instead tries to undermine the speaker. But even if I were new, would that automatically invalidate the point? Players with fresh perspectives are just as entitled to raise concerns or critiques. Either the argument stands on its own or it doesn’t. Longevity in a game is not a substitute for logic.

I wasn't trying to deflect. I addressed your point in my response. I asked whether you hadn't been around when AwA hit because I was wondering why you didn't know that the problems with the map came along with AwA, and therefore the two are tied together. Since you were around then, I don't understand why you didn't know, but whatever.

So to reiterate: Account-wide achievements do not prevent anyone from re-experiencing content, nor do they preclude challenge. The concern about tracking could absolutely be resolved by better UI tools or optional character-level toggles. But the gameplay remains intact; and if someone genuinely enjoys it, then they’ll still enjoy it without a redundant pop-up.

AwA prevents us from re-experiencing getting achievements as we repeat content on our alts. That's the part that some of us miss. I understand that not all players care about achievements, so for them, it's not a big deal. But for those of us who like achievement hunting, it is. We LIKE experiencing the redundant pop-up, just like some players like doing the same dungeon 50x, and others only need to do it once.

ETA: AwA also prevents us from experiencing a clean map on our alts. Very important!

The tracking concern could be resolved in other ways, and many, many players have put forward suggestions. But ZOS has shown no interest in doing anything along those lines, so most players have assumed that nothing will be coming. Even if ZOS did intend to do something, it wouldn't solve the inability to repeat achievements (that's the content that is NOT repeatable), or the tracking problem in the meantime.

Anyway, it's my experience that trying to convince players that something shouldn't bother them, because it doesn't bother you, generally goes nowhere.

sans-culottes · April 22

heaven13 wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Dragonnord wrote: »

@sans-culottes Have you read my comment #50 here? https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8303343/#Comment_8303343

There's an immense amount of achievement impossible to track.

I did read it, yes, and my response was directly addressing your concerns. I’m still unclear on what, specifically, you’re finding untrackable.

The examples you gave—battleground kills, Crazy King objectives, delves, fishing progress, dungeon boss kills—are all things you can still do and repeat on alts. If what you’re asking for is an interface that better tracks these things per character, that’s a request for improved UI and progression transparency. That’s a reasonable suggestion. But that’s a separate issue from account-wide achievements themselves, which don’t stop you from replaying or challenging yourself again. They simply consolidate the recognition for those challenges across your account.

In short, nothing in the current system prevents you from continuing to do what you’ve always done. The achievements may not pop again, but the gameplay is still there, and so is your agency to take it on.

AzuraFan wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Likewise, the examples about dolmens, delves, or Master Angler are really concerns about map fog, exploration indicators, and collection logs. Those systems could certainly be improved. However, tying the problem back to account-wide achievements seems misplaced.

Not misplaced, because those problems didn't exist before AwA. Before AwA, the map was clean when an alt entered a zone for the first time. When AwA was introduced, the map problems (which include dolmens, delves, WBs, etc.) came along with it. I don't know why it had to be that way, unless whatever tracks achievements is tied to the map somehow. So they are definitely tied together - AwA and the map problem.

Finally, if tracking specific kills or progression on alts is important, then it is worth advocating for better UI tools or optional character-specific toggles,

The first thing players asked for when they saw the abomination that was called AwA was to make it optional, or to have toggles. Lots of alternative ways were suggested. Maybe you weren't around when it was introduced, or weren't on the forums?

Like I've said, I like AwA in theory, for the grindy and difficult achievements. But making exploration and story quest achievements account wide, and destroying the map for alts, wasn't necessary at all.

That’s an odd assumption to make. My forum account may be relatively recent, but I’ve been playing ESO since 2014. I remember the days before the Champion System, before the Justice System, before One Tamriel. None of this is new to me.

The “you must be new” response is a common rhetorical deflection. It avoids engaging with the argument itself and instead tries to undermine the speaker. But even if I were new, would that automatically invalidate the point? Players with fresh perspectives are just as entitled to raise concerns or critiques. Either the argument stands on its own or it doesn’t. Longevity in a game is not a substitute for logic.

So to reiterate: Account-wide achievements do not prevent anyone from re-experiencing content, nor do they preclude challenge. The concern about tracking could absolutely be resolved by better UI tools or optional character-level toggles. But the gameplay remains intact; and if someone genuinely enjoys it, then they’ll still enjoy it without a redundant pop-up.

You're telling us we shouldn't be upset with AwA and instead should advocate for better UI/tracking. All @AzuraFan was attempting to point out is that we DID, in fact, do just that, before AwA was even released. I don't think they were trying to undermine you, but point out that many of us did try to do what you're suggesting and we were met with deaf ears. The promised Q&A was never even released. So yeah, many of us are unhappy with AwA not because we just watched it happen and complained afterwards but specifically because we tried to make it better and suggest reasonable solutions to the problems we saw coming and were ignored.

I appreciate the clarification, though I think we may be talking past each other a bit. I’m not defending how ZOS implemented AwA, nor am I denying that players voiced concerns beforehand. If those suggestions were ignored, then it’s entirely reasonable to be frustrated with the developers about that.

But my point isn’t aimed at ZOS. It’s aimed at the structure of the current debate. Specifically, I’m responding to the claim that account-wide achievements themselves have somehow made the game unplayable, or that they preclude challenge or meaningful engagement with alts. That’s a much broader assertion, and one I don’t think holds up under scrutiny.

We can and should advocate for better character-level tracking tools, clearer progression logs, or UI toggles. That’s constructive. But I don’t think it helps anyone to treat consolidated achievements as the death of replayability when the content, the classes, and the gameplay systems themselves remain fully intact—at least for now.

Amottica · April 22

Thanks for your thoughts. I do feel there was a better way to implement something like AwA that did not take away from character achievements, either. However, the change did not alter my interests in playing alts. I play the various alts because I like to switch things up. While there is not a lot of class flavor in ESO, there is some, and I enjoy the change.

There are achievements I do like to check off such as the more challenging ones, but I am not driven to get those achievements on each character. I am driven to play because I enjoy playing. To each their own.

sans-culottes · April 22

Quoted post has been removed

Thank you for the clarification, and for quoting @AzuraFan. I appreciate the emotional dimension you’re highlighting, and I agree that the sense of gratification from a new pop-up or visible milestone can be a meaningful part of gameplay for some players.

That said, I think this actually underscores the distinction I’ve been trying to make: the concern here seems to center on emotional feedback as opposed to mechanical functionality. Nothing in the AwA system prevents players from re-running content, from challenging themselves, or even from building entire narratives around each character. What it changes is whether the achievement notification appears again. That’s not the removal of gameplay; it’s the removal of repetition in acknowledgment.

To your point, if the core issue is the absence of that familiar feedback loop, then wouldn’t the most productive solution be a toggle or UI enhancement that allows players to track character-level progress independently? That way, players who find joy in per-character achievement tracking get that experience, without removing the benefits AwA provides for others.

No system can meet every emotional need, but I think we can advocate for improvements without reverting to a more fragmented and restrictive design. That’s all I’m saying.

AzuraFan · April 22

sans-culottes wrote: »

That said, I think this actually underscores the distinction I’ve been trying to make: the concern here seems to center on emotional feedback as opposed to mechanical functionality. Nothing in the AwA system prevents players from re-running content, from challenging themselves, or even from building entire narratives around each character. What it changes is whether the achievement notification appears again. That’s not the removal of gameplay; it’s the removal of repetition in acknowledgment.

Nobody has said that AwA removes gameplay. NOBODY.

To your point, if the core issue is the absence of that familiar feedback loop, then wouldn’t the most productive solution be a toggle or UI enhancement that allows players to track character-level progress independently? That way, players who find joy in per-character achievement tracking get that experience, without removing the benefits AwA provides for others.

Yes, a per character toggle would be great. But even better would have been if ZOS had implemented AwA thoughtfully, rather than taking a sledgehammer to it. Like I've said before, I have no problem with AwA, for those achievements that make sense.

Also, having toggles won't solve the partially completed map problem.

So yes, I agree that toggles could help, but ZOS has effectively said no to that. And no, I don't want to remove the benefits of AwA for those who like it. I don't think anyone who feels adversely affected by AwA wants to remove it for everyone.

Hypertionb14_ESO · April 22

Soarora wrote: »

Cloudtrader wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Cloudtrader wrote: »

I love AwA. I want all the achievements on my main, but sometimes my group needs me to play a tank or a healer. This way, it still shows completed on all my characters, and I love that. It doesn't make me play less; it makes me less frustrated.

Are you only progging new achievements or are you running any back? It looks like a great concept until you start running out of trifectas and realize there’s no point in running them repeatedly unless you just want to help other people. I’ve tried to keep track and it’s difficult and it’s not the same.

I guess I'm not sure what you're asking here? I play every Sunday, Monday, and Friday with my guild members (and occasionally in between) and we do stuff someone asks for. I play it even if I have all achievements and full sticker book just to hang out with friends and enjoy grouping. If I haven't done a dungeon or trial on a character, I know that I haven't because I haven't gotten the skill point (for dungeons) or because I haven't collected the lore/paper (for trials). I have add-ons that tell me if a character needs the skillpoint or lore/paper.

The best thing about AwA for me was specifically the trophy collector achievements. That unlocked a bunch of dyes for me.

I’m glad you’re enjoying yourself then (genuinely). What AWA meant to me is that overnight the motivation to achieve dungeon trifectas on each character and get HM for mask farms on every role… dissolved. Not just for me, not just for friends. The dungeon guild I’m in went from multiple runs happening at once, always people looking for runs to… not being able to fill runs. Only literally last month did we get back to seeing good activity and that’s just by chance of new people coming in at once needing clears. Aside from a few people here and there, most members who have achieved everything no longer run with the guild until new dungeons drop. People talk about how U35 killed trial guilds. AWA was that for dungeons.

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

heh, ya I only go for achievements for any potential rewards like skins or dyes.. most are meaningless. AwA complaints where something I didn't even know was a thing because when i started playing again i was just glad for it and cannot see any reason why it would bother people.

Wanna do an alt? nothing about AwA prevents this. I did 2 new full play through of the og main stories in the last half year. Never bothered me once to not see achievements pop up for every benign thing.

Working to clear HMs purely for the fun, that's how i play. That is how i played in the decade before Achievements were even a thing, and how i probably always will. I just do not understand this line of complaint at all.

AWA doesn’t stop anyone from running content back but why prog a trifecta you already have? Why try to use a different character when you already have one that works? Personal challenge, sure, but it cannot be denied the community impact. Not everyone wants to achieve without the achievement. And it really does get hard to keep track. I had to make a SPREADSHEET because a guild I’m in ranks by role and theres no way I’m remembering what role I did vet/hm on. Tri I of course I mostly remember but I’m at the point of my eso career now that some dungeons I’ve lost count of how many tris I’ve done there. That is not a brag, it is unfortunate. I can’t be proud of what I’ve done when I can’t even remember what I’ve done.

For fun, Is that such a strange thing? Why did i run through the base game MQs to level up each new character when i returned to the game, For fun.

If your not enjoying your gameplay, your not enjoying the game. If its just for the Achievements, then you really have limited what you can do, because reguardless of which class/role you earned one on, you have already earned it. AwA isnt preventing you from doing A trial on B difficulty because you have already done it, you are.

heaven13 · April 22

sans-culottes wrote: »

Quoted post has been removed

Thank you for the clarification, and for quoting @AzuraFan. I appreciate the emotional dimension you’re highlighting, and I agree that the sense of gratification from a new pop-up or visible milestone can be a meaningful part of gameplay for some players.

That said, I think this actually underscores the distinction I’ve been trying to make: the concern here seems to center on emotional feedback as opposed to mechanical functionality. Nothing in the AwA system prevents players from re-running content, from challenging themselves, or even from building entire narratives around each character. What it changes is whether the achievement notification appears again. That’s not the removal of gameplay; it’s the removal of repetition in acknowledgment.

To your point, if the core issue is the absence of that familiar feedback loop, then wouldn’t the most productive solution be a toggle or UI enhancement that allows players to track character-level progress independently? That way, players who find joy in per-character achievement tracking get that experience, without removing the benefits AwA provides for others.

No system can meet every emotional need, but I think we can advocate for improvements without reverting to a more fragmented and restrictive design. That’s all I’m saying.

Unfortunately, I don't think what you're suggesting is possible anymore. Particularly when it comes to story quests. You cannot repeat those on a character. So if you have already done said quests (complete 33 quests in Grahtwood - I don't know the actual number but spitballing here) that achievement would forever be locked to an existing character and one that may have had it prior to U33. Unless it somehow checks the backend data to see if quest_complete = 1 for current character, set achievement_complete = true for any completed quests and they all get stamped with the log in date.

This is especially true/frustrating for those people that used the date of the achievement to keep a timeline of their characters. My first character to get Master Angler did so in summer of 2019. However, when I came back after AwA I only intended to ever log in to my main to preserve her achievements. She didn't become my main and achieve master angler until the following summer. So my account forever thinks that I achieved Master Angler in 2020 and it's completely forgotten that, not one but two, other characters got that achievement before she did.

ZoS has a bad habit of forging ahead without thinking through ramifications, even in the face of substantive negative feedback. Rather than slowing down and at least attempting to address that feedback, usually they go "just trust us bro" or play the "we know best" card, which I think is why you have a lot of pretty invested, negative opinions of AwA for a variety of reasons, most of which could have been resolved had they delayed the release and addressed these concerns first.

Not saying the current system can't be improved upon but the time to address these concerns was before the data was purged, not after. Some things have been lost that cannot be recovered and one of those things is trust.

Qagh · April 23

I hate AwA too.

I love fishing. I did the master angler 5 times and i was on the way with the 6th master angler.

I can't do it again now.

There are fun achievments. For example: "Jump from ...". You can do it once.

sans-culottes · April 23

I appreciate the passion here, but I’m struggling to follow the logic of some of these examples.

Take the fishing concern. You can still fish. You can even fish on every alt. You can manually track progress if it matters to you that much. If what’s missing is a system notification, then that’s not a loss of activity. Instead, it’s merely a loss of confirmation. To put it another way, that is a shift in how feedback is presented.

The same goes for stories of lost guild activity or dungeon runs. If a group only played to watch a title pop on screen, then was that really about gameplay or about dopamine response conditioning? You can still run trifectas, still prog, still switch roles and challenge yourself. The only change is that there isn’t a new reward banner every time you do it. If that’s enough to collapse motivation, then I think the issue may lie deeper than the UI.

It’s fine to miss character-level tracking. And if a toggle or additional logging options would help, then that’s a great suggestion. But we can’t frame the absence of a repeatable pop-up as a form of oppression. That’s just not serious.

Nobody is stopping anyone from fishing, questing, or dungeon running. You can still do it. The world is still there. The fish still bite. If a spreadsheet is now necessary to recreate the experience you want, then that’s unfortunate but also kind of telling.

Soarora · April 23

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Cloudtrader wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Cloudtrader wrote: »

I love AwA. I want all the achievements on my main, but sometimes my group needs me to play a tank or a healer. This way, it still shows completed on all my characters, and I love that. It doesn't make me play less; it makes me less frustrated.

Are you only progging new achievements or are you running any back? It looks like a great concept until you start running out of trifectas and realize there’s no point in running them repeatedly unless you just want to help other people. I’ve tried to keep track and it’s difficult and it’s not the same.

I guess I'm not sure what you're asking here? I play every Sunday, Monday, and Friday with my guild members (and occasionally in between) and we do stuff someone asks for. I play it even if I have all achievements and full sticker book just to hang out with friends and enjoy grouping. If I haven't done a dungeon or trial on a character, I know that I haven't because I haven't gotten the skill point (for dungeons) or because I haven't collected the lore/paper (for trials). I have add-ons that tell me if a character needs the skillpoint or lore/paper.

The best thing about AwA for me was specifically the trophy collector achievements. That unlocked a bunch of dyes for me.

I’m glad you’re enjoying yourself then (genuinely). What AWA meant to me is that overnight the motivation to achieve dungeon trifectas on each character and get HM for mask farms on every role… dissolved. Not just for me, not just for friends. The dungeon guild I’m in went from multiple runs happening at once, always people looking for runs to… not being able to fill runs. Only literally last month did we get back to seeing good activity and that’s just by chance of new people coming in at once needing clears. Aside from a few people here and there, most members who have achieved everything no longer run with the guild until new dungeons drop. People talk about how U35 killed trial guilds. AWA was that for dungeons.

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

heh, ya I only go for achievements for any potential rewards like skins or dyes.. most are meaningless. AwA complaints where something I didn't even know was a thing because when i started playing again i was just glad for it and cannot see any reason why it would bother people.

Wanna do an alt? nothing about AwA prevents this. I did 2 new full play through of the og main stories in the last half year. Never bothered me once to not see achievements pop up for every benign thing.

Working to clear HMs purely for the fun, that's how i play. That is how i played in the decade before Achievements were even a thing, and how i probably always will. I just do not understand this line of complaint at all.

AWA doesn’t stop anyone from running content back but why prog a trifecta you already have? Why try to use a different character when you already have one that works? Personal challenge, sure, but it cannot be denied the community impact. Not everyone wants to achieve without the achievement. And it really does get hard to keep track. I had to make a SPREADSHEET because a guild I’m in ranks by role and theres no way I’m remembering what role I did vet/hm on. Tri I of course I mostly remember but I’m at the point of my eso career now that some dungeons I’ve lost count of how many tris I’ve done there. That is not a brag, it is unfortunate. I can’t be proud of what I’ve done when I can’t even remember what I’ve done.

For fun, Is that such a strange thing? Why did i run through the base game MQs to level up each new character when i returned to the game, For fun.

If your not enjoying your gameplay, your not enjoying the game. If its just for the Achievements, then you really have limited what you can do, because reguardless of which class/role you earned one on, you have already earned it. AwA isnt preventing you from doing A trial on B difficulty because you have already done it, you are.

There’s nothing wrong with achievement-hunting gameplay, there’s different ways to play the game. Progging a trifecta without an achievement feels like a waste of time (and no pop-up tells you that you’ve succeeded), might as well just do scorepushing at that point. As for HMs, yeah I do those for fun. But trifectas more high-stakes and time consuming. Besides my thoughts anyways, the community impact is the real problem.

And I haven’t mentioned it on the thread yet but I like AWA for my overland delve/worldboss completions. I just wish HM and trifecta clears were kept character-bound. That chase will never be the same again.

sans-culottes wrote: »

I appreciate the passion here, but I’m struggling to follow the logic of some of these examples.

The same goes for stories of lost guild activity or dungeon runs. If a group only played to watch a title pop on screen, then was that really about gameplay or about dopamine response conditioning? You can still run trifectas, still prog, still switch roles and challenge yourself. The only change is that there isn’t a new reward banner every time you do it. If that’s enough to collapse motivation, then I think the issue may lie deeper than the UI.

Nobody is stopping anyone from fishing, questing, or dungeon running. You can still do it. The world is still there. The fish still bite. If a spreadsheet is now necessary to recreate the experience you want, then that’s unfortunate but also kind of telling.

Is there anything specifically wrong with that kind of gameplay? Besides, at the end of the day, you need players to run content for other players to run the content with. There’s people who run what they already have to help others but sometimes that’s not enough.

Also on the spreadsheet note, the only reason I made the spreadsheet is because a trial guild I’m in requires clears by role and I do all roles so me remembering that is… not happening. I figured might as well throw dungeons in there too but it’s not updated because I grew too lazy to update it.

AzuraFan · April 23

sans-culottes wrote: »

I appreciate the passion here, but I’m struggling to follow the logic of some of these examples.

It's because we're all different people, and different things motivate us. I don't understand players who min/max. I don't understand players who repeat the same thing 50x to get one furniture recipe. I don't understand players who don't like to get achievements.

The same goes for stories of lost guild activity or dungeon runs. If a group only played to watch a title pop on screen, then was that really about gameplay or about dopamine response conditioning? You can still run trifectas, still prog, still switch roles and challenge yourself. The only change is that there isn’t a new reward banner every time you do it. If that’s enough to collapse motivation, then I think the issue may lie deeper than the UI.

IOW, players who are motivated by something that doesn't motivate you must have issues. Are you seriously suggesting that? As far as the dopamine response, every repetitive and RNG activity is dopamine. Chasing an achievement (and wanting to do that on every character) is no different than someone digging up 300 treasure maps for an antiquities lead, or running the same dungeon 50x to fill the sticker book with items they'll never use.

If you're not motivated by achievements, you won't get it. And that's okay. Accept that not all players are the same and move on with your day.

TaSheen · April 23

I really think this is just a difference in how people approach their gaming. Some of us don't care about achievements; others are very invested in "collecting" them; still others are used to (for many years) tracking any number of things by the achievements garnered in gameplay on mains and alts.

There's no reason to browbeat those of any persuasion over how they play, and how their preferred method of playing/tracking/having fun is no longer available.

By now, no one is going to change anyone's mind about this.... Let it go, and bless everyone for playing how they want and how they enjoy.

Dithieon · April 23

TaSheen wrote: »

I really think this is just a difference in how people approach their gaming. Some of us don't care about achievements; others are very invested in "collecting" them; still others are used to (for many years) tracking any number of things by the achievements garnered in gameplay on mains and alts.

There's no reason to browbeat those of any persuasion over how they play, and how their preferred method of playing/tracking/having fun is no longer available.

By now, no one is going to change anyone's mind about this.... Let it go, and bless everyone for playing how they want and how they enjoy.

All of this right here

zaria · April 23

TaSheen wrote: »

I really think this is just a difference in how people approach their gaming. Some of us don't care about achievements; others are very invested in "collecting" them; still others are used to (for many years) tracking any number of things by the achievements garnered in gameplay on mains and alts.

There's no reason to browbeat those of any persuasion over how they play, and how their preferred method of playing/tracking/having fun is no longer available.

By now, no one is going to change anyone's mind about this.... Let it go, and bless everyone for playing how they want and how they enjoy.

I agree, for me i mostly liked AvA I was able to get the last monster trophy's and some other weird ones.
Now it would be bad for people getting achievements on multiple characters like that guy who had lots of master anglers.

agelonestar · April 23

I love Account Wide Achievements and I actually thought ZoS implemented it exceptionally well.

There are plenty of things to do per character and with the continuation of new content, I think it’s always easy to find something that I haven’t yet done.

Maybe that’s controversial, but I got exactly what I wanted from AwA.

Tandor · April 23

sans-culottes wrote: »

If a spreadsheet is now necessary to recreate the experience you want, then that’s unfortunate but also kind of telling.

Indeed it is telling, and what it tells us is that while it used to be possible to track progress within the game you now need to run a spreadsheet outside the game in order to do so - and yes, that is indeed unfortunate.

Juju_beans · April 23

My main character is the "quester and crafter". That is the one where I go for all the achievements and finished quest lines.

Well I went to one of the new zones to do all the delves.
Turns out one of my alts had already did them in farming for some overland gear in that zone.

I was like "Aw rats" because I really just wanted to get all this stuff done by my main.
No biggie but it was a letdown that my main didn't get to do them all first.

katanagirl1 · April 24

Juju_beans wrote: »

My main character is the "quester and crafter". That is the one where I go for all the achievements and finished quest lines.

Well I went to one of the new zones to do all the delves.
Turns out one of my alts had already did them in farming for some overland gear in that zone.

I was like "Aw rats" because I really just wanted to get all this stuff done by my main.
No biggie but it was a letdown that my main didn't get to do them all first.

Someone mentioned the monster trophy achievements. I grinded like mad before AWA just to get the ones I was missing on my main character so some alt that I rarely play would not accidentally trigger them.

Meiox · April 24

Dragonnord wrote: »

Sorry for this post, but I just wanted to say that.

I hate AwA. It completely destroyed replayability for me. It killed a lot of fun I was having.

I realized I have been playing 10 times less than I was playing before (I have my main and 10 alts).

I knew this was going to happen.

I love AwA and I play my alts a lot more

spartaxoxo · April 24

sans-culottes wrote: »

I appreciate the passion here, but I’m struggling to follow the logic of some of these examples.

I think you seem to have a misunderstanding of what AWA is and that's leading to the disconnect.

The achievement system is not a gameplay system. It's not entirely separate but the gameplay systems themselves are a different topic. Fishing is fishing whether the achievement system remained per character, account wide, or if it was dismantled altogether.

The achievement system IS the UI tracking and other factors that you're labeling as separate to AWA.

The achievement system tracks the progress of a character on predefined tasks. This system than rewards a player for completing that task. Sometimes the reward is just a satisfying chime and flashy text. Other times, it may give more significant reward such as titles, dyes, etc.

ETA

Players can no longer engage with a task if they have already completed that task on a different character. For some players this is a good thing because they view this system as a person-based (actual human being) task list and thus become irritated at unnecessary repetition and feeling like they missed out because they completed the task on the wrong character. I fall into this category. For others, the satisfaction of this system came from their ability to treat it as a character task list and their ability to hear the satisfying chime of the a job well done on each character. This is no longer possible. They can create a facsimile of it with a spreadsheet but it is not the same as a properly gamified system.

ETA 2: lightly edited for clarity.

sans-culottes · April 25

spartaxoxo wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

I appreciate the passion here, but I’m struggling to follow the logic of some of these examples.

I think you seem to have a misunderstanding of what AWA is and that's leading to the disconnect.

The achievement system is not a gameplay system. It's not entirely separate but the gameplay systems themselves are a different topic. Fishing is fishing whether the achievement system remained per character, account wide, or if it was dismantled altogether.

The achievement system IS the UI tracking and other factors that you're labeling as separate to AWA.

The achievement system tracks the progress of a character on predefined tasks. This system than rewards a player for completing that task. Sometimes the reward is just a satisfying chime and flashy text. Other times, it may give more significant reward such as titles, dyes, etc.

ETA

Players can no longer engage with a task if they have already completed that task on a different character. For some players this is a good thing because they view this system as a person-based (actual human being) task list and thus become irritated at unnecessary repetition and feeling like they missed out because they completed the task on the wrong character. I fall into this category. For others, the satisfaction of this system came from their ability to treat it as a character task list and their ability to hear the satisfying chime of the a job well done on each character. This is no longer possible. They can create a facsimile of it with a spreadsheet but it is not the same as a properly gamified system.

ETA 2: lightly edited for clarity.

Thank you for the clarification. I understand perfectly well what AwA is. There is no misunderstanding of the system itself.

The distinction I made was not about what AwA technically alters—UI tracking and acknowledgment systems—but what remains unchanged in the underlying gameplay: the ability to engage in fishing, trifectas, exploration, etc. The point was that AwA modifies feedback and presentation rather than removing the underlying activities. That is not a defense of AwA or a dismissal of criticisms. It is simply a precise description of what has and has not changed.

Your argument ultimately supports this observation: if the primary harm is emotional feedback being lost (the “satisfying chime” and “flashy text”), then the concern is fundamentally about the alteration of a gratification structure, not the destruction of gameplay itself. That is a legitimate emotional grievance, but it does not imply mechanical removal of content.

Moreover, to lightly push back on the final framing: suggesting that understanding the issue differently stems from ignorance (“you misunderstand AwA”) rather than simply having a different prioritization of game elements risks narrowing the discussion unnecessarily. One can fully grasp what has changed and still argue that the underlying structure of gameplay remains intact.

AzuraFan · April 25

sans-culottes wrote: »

Moreover, to lightly push back on the final framing: suggesting that understanding the issue differently stems from ignorance (“you misunderstand AwA”) rather than simply having a different prioritization of game elements risks narrowing the discussion unnecessarily. One can fully grasp what has changed and still argue that the underlying structure of gameplay remains intact.

Once again, nobody is disputing that actual gameplay was removed. We all understand that it's still possible to repeat content on alts.

You've been asserting in this thread that because no actual gameplay was removed, no replayability was removed. But as spart and others have tried to point out, there are two systems at play here: the gameplay, and the rewards. I'd say there's also a third - tracking what your characters have completed.

AwA didn't change anything for those who aren't motivated by achievements (one form of reward for completing content), and who weren't using achievements and the map to track what their characters completed.

AwA did change something important for players who were using achievements/the map to track what their alts have completed.

AwA removed replayability for players motivated by achievements (a reward system). For those players, replaying the content on an alt isn't worth it because they don't receive a reward that's important to them. It's replayablity, not gameplay, that's been removed.

If you can't grasp that, try another example. If dungeons only dropped gear and awarded transmutes the very first time you ran them on your account, do you think most players would rerun dungeons? The answer is no. They'd run reach dungeon once and then never touch them again. The dungeons would still be there. There would be nothing stopping them from running dungeons again. But the replayability would be gone. Why? Because most players are motivated to run dungeons due to the rewards they receive. Not the actual gameplay. But the rewards. Yes, there'd still be players who'd repeat the dungeons, those not motivated by the shinies. But a large chunk of the playerbase would run them once and then be done with it.

Hopefully that helps. In any event, to continue to say that no gameplay was removed is flogging a dead horse at this point. We all understand that no gameplay was removed. We all understand that we can repeat content on our alts.

sans-culottes · April 25

AzuraFan wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Moreover, to lightly push back on the final framing: suggesting that understanding the issue differently stems from ignorance (“you misunderstand AwA”) rather than simply having a different prioritization of game elements risks narrowing the discussion unnecessarily. One can fully grasp what has changed and still argue that the underlying structure of gameplay remains intact.

Once again, nobody is disputing that actual gameplay was removed. We all understand that it's still possible to repeat content on alts.

You've been asserting in this thread that because no actual gameplay was removed, no replayability was removed. But as spart and others have tried to point out, there are two systems at play here: the gameplay, and the rewards. I'd say there's also a third - tracking what your characters have completed.

AwA didn't change anything for those who aren't motivated by achievements (one form of reward for completing content), and who weren't using achievements and the map to track what their characters completed.

AwA did change something important for players who were using achievements/the map to track what their alts have completed.

AwA removed replayability for players motivated by achievements (a reward system). For those players, replaying the content on an alt isn't worth it because they don't receive a reward that's important to them. It's replayablity, not gameplay, that's been removed.

If you can't grasp that, try another example. If dungeons only dropped gear and awarded transmutes the very first time you ran them on your account, do you think most players would rerun dungeons? The answer is no. They'd run reach dungeon once and then never touch them again. The dungeons would still be there. There would be nothing stopping them from running dungeons again. But the replayability would be gone. Why? Because most players are motivated to run dungeons due to the rewards they receive. Not the actual gameplay. But the rewards. Yes, there'd still be players who'd repeat the dungeons, those not motivated by the shinies. But a large chunk of the playerbase would run them once and then be done with it.

Hopefully that helps. In any event, to continue to say that no gameplay was removed is flogging a dead horse at this point. We all understand that no gameplay was removed. We all understand that we can repeat content on our alts.

Thank you for elaborating, AzuraFan. I think this actually brings the key dynamic into even sharper focus.

You have conceded that the gameplay itself remains intact, and that content is still fully available for replay on alts. The question, then, is not about objective gameplay structure, but about subjective motivation: whether the symbolic reinforcement attached to repetition still feels adequate for certain players.

In other words, what has changed is not the substance of replayability itself, but the libidinal economy that previously governed it. Some players no longer experience the same gratification loop, and so the drive to replay weakens. This is not a mechanical change to the game. It is a shift in how certain players’ psychic investments are organized around reward structures.

The analogy about dungeon drops only happening once is telling. It does not mirror the current situation because achievements remain available at the account level. What it does reveal is that, for some, the gameplay itself was never the primary object of enjoyment. It was the symbolic marking of repetition through discrete personal rewards that sustained engagement.

Acknowledging that distinction—between gameplay structure and libidinal attachment to symbolic rewards—clarifies why some experience the change so acutely while others continue unaffected.

AzuraFan · April 25

sans-culottes wrote: »

You have conceded that the gameplay itself remains intact, and that content is still fully available for replay on alts. The question, then, is not about objective gameplay structure, but about subjective motivation: whether the symbolic reinforcement attached to repetition still feels adequate for certain players.

Exactly. It all comes down to motivation. Players are motivated by different things. For those motivated by achievements, AwA removed replayability because it removed an important reward for doing the content.

Glad you finally got it!

The analogy about dungeon drops only happening once is telling. It does not mirror the current situation because achievements remain available at the account level. What it does reveal is that, for some, the gameplay itself was never the primary object of enjoyment. It was the symbolic marking of repetition through discrete personal rewards that sustained engagement.

Not quite. I'd say the first time around the motivation is both the enjoyment of doing the content and the rewards. However, after that, i.e. the replayability, it's more about the rewards for some players. If the important rewards aren't there, they're not interested in repeating the content.

As for the analogy with the dungeons, I wasn't trying to mirror it to AwA. I was trying to show how players are often motivated to repeat content because of the rewards and not the gameplay. And yes, at that point, it can be obtaining the reward that's most important, and not the enjoyment of the gameplay itself. Trust me, I didn't enjoy running Darkshade Caverns II 30 times to get the lead for the dwarven horngrip!

sans-culottes · April 25

AzuraFan wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

You have conceded that the gameplay itself remains intact, and that content is still fully available for replay on alts. The question, then, is not about objective gameplay structure, but about subjective motivation: whether the symbolic reinforcement attached to repetition still feels adequate for certain players.

Exactly. It all comes down to motivation. Players are motivated by different things. For those motivated by achievements, AwA removed replayability because it removed an important reward for doing the content.

Glad you finally got it!

The analogy about dungeon drops only happening once is telling. It does not mirror the current situation because achievements remain available at the account level. What it does reveal is that, for some, the gameplay itself was never the primary object of enjoyment. It was the symbolic marking of repetition through discrete personal rewards that sustained engagement.

Not quite. I'd say the first time around the motivation is both the enjoyment of doing the content and the rewards. However, after that, i.e. the replayability, it's more about the rewards for some players. If the important rewards aren't there, they're not interested in repeating the content.

As for the analogy with the dungeons, I wasn't trying to mirror it to AwA. I was trying to show how players are often motivated to repeat content because of the rewards and not the gameplay. And yes, at that point, it can be obtaining the reward that's most important, and not the enjoyment of the gameplay itself. Trust me, I didn't enjoy running Darkshade Caverns II 30 times to get the lead for the dwarven horngrip!

Thank you for clarifying further, AzuraFan. I think this final framing crystallizes the dynamic we have been discussing.

You acknowledge that, for many, gameplay itself is the initial motivator, but that sustained engagement depends increasingly on the external reward structures rather than intrinsic enjoyment of play. In other words, the repetition becomes tolerable or worthwhile only through the promise of symbolic reinforcement.

This distinction is critical. The gameplay remains available, fully intact and unchanged, but the psychic economy that previously sustained certain players’ motivation has been disrupted. What is being mourned is not the loss of content or activity, but the loss of a specific structure of gratification that made repetition feel necessary or rewarding.

This was the point all along. The architecture of gameplay persists; what shifted was the relationship certain players had toward it, once particular external rewards were no longer tied as closely to every repetition. That is why some players continue unaffected, while others experience the change as a profound rupture.

It is a difference not of mechanics but of libidinal organization.

AzuraFan · April 25

sans-culottes wrote: »

Thank you for clarifying further, AzuraFan. I think this final framing crystallizes the dynamic we have been discussing.

You acknowledge that, for many, gameplay itself is the initial motivator, but that sustained engagement depends increasingly on the external reward structures rather than intrinsic enjoyment of play. In other words, the repetition becomes tolerable or worthwhile only through the promise of symbolic reinforcement.

This distinction is critical. The gameplay remains available, fully intact and unchanged, but the psychic economy that previously sustained certain players’ motivation has been disrupted. What is being mourned is not the loss of content or activity, but the loss of a specific structure of gratification that made repetition feel necessary or rewarding.

This was the point all along. The architecture of gameplay persists; what shifted was the relationship certain players had toward it, once particular external rewards were no longer tied as closely to every repetition. That is why some players continue unaffected, while others experience the change as a profound rupture.

It is a difference not of mechanics but of libidinal organization.

Yes, exactly.

(But to be fair, it wasn't the point you were making all along. Initially, you didn't understand why AwA affected replayability because the content was still there and nothing was stopping anyone from repeating it on their alts. You were, however, making the point all along that the content was still there, but that was never in dispute. Anyway, interesting discussion that I believe has run its course at this point.

)

sans-culottes · April 25

AzuraFan wrote: »

sans-culottes wrote: »

Thank you for clarifying further, AzuraFan. I think this final framing crystallizes the dynamic we have been discussing.

You acknowledge that, for many, gameplay itself is the initial motivator, but that sustained engagement depends increasingly on the external reward structures rather than intrinsic enjoyment of play. In other words, the repetition becomes tolerable or worthwhile only through the promise of symbolic reinforcement.

This distinction is critical. The gameplay remains available, fully intact and unchanged, but the psychic economy that previously sustained certain players’ motivation has been disrupted. What is being mourned is not the loss of content or activity, but the loss of a specific structure of gratification that made repetition feel necessary or rewarding.

This was the point all along. The architecture of gameplay persists; what shifted was the relationship certain players had toward it, once particular external rewards were no longer tied as closely to every repetition. That is why some players continue unaffected, while others experience the change as a profound rupture.

It is a difference not of mechanics but of libidinal organization.

Yes, exactly.

(But to be fair, it wasn't the point you were making all along. Initially, you didn't understand why AwA affected replayability because the content was still there and nothing was stopping anyone from repeating it on their alts. You were, however, making the point all along that the content was still there, but that was never in dispute. Anyway, interesting discussion that I believe has run its course at this point. )

Thank you for the exchange. It is important to note, however, that from the beginning many of the arguments against AWA were framed not merely in terms of “different motivations,” but as claims that real gameplay was being removed or ruined. That was the core assertion made repeatedly. It has become clear through this discussion that no gameplay was removed. What changed was the symbolic validation structure around which some players had organized their investment.

The world, the dungeons, the achievements, and the challenges remain. The disruption was not mechanical; it was psychic. Motivation collapsed for some players not because content was destroyed, but because a certain pattern of symbolic reinforcement was interrupted. It is understandable that such a shift would feel disorienting, but it is not evidence of a systemic failure.

In that sense, this has been a useful demonstration of how libidinal economies shape subjective experience without altering objective reality. I appreciate the discussion and am content to leave it there.