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Subclassing and the Buffs will SAVE this game, not "Break" it
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xylena_lazarow✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Exactly. Can't break what's already broken, can't kill what's already dead. Meanwhile, I don't think I've seen this much excitement and action on the PTS since before Summerset.PC/NA || Cyro/BGs || RIP old PvP build system || bring Vengeance1 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Yes absolutely. Powercreep is a great thing. Just in smaller chunks 2-5% each update.AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.
Point 1: I'm all for variety, I'm just not for 50% powercreep.
Point 2: You can absolutely progress and clear all content in this game with 2 hours of run time a week. Each prog will take a group X amount of hours. Based on their skill level. So the end result is the same. It's just a matter of quickly you get there. If you want to reduce X, Improve skill
Question: What so bad about taking longer to complete a clear? Why not just enjoy the process? When you buy content, wouldn't you want it to last awhile?
Edited by AdmiralDigby on 18 April 2025 13:472 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Yes absolutely. Powercreep is a great thing. Just in smaller chunks 2-5% each update.AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.
Point 1: I'm all for variety, I'm just not for 50% powercreep.
Point 2: You can absolutely progress and clear all content in this game with 2 hours of run time a week. Each prog will take a group X amount of hours. Based on their skill level. So the end result is the same. It's just a matter of quickly you get there.
Question: What so bad about taking longer to complete a clear? Why not just enjoy the process? When you buy content, wouldn't you want it to last awhile?
Honestly man, I agree with you appreciate the cordial response.
Point 1. Yea, it might be a bit too much but id rather it be too much than too little at this point in the game.
Point 2. I agree here. But. Were 10? 11 years in? Say a PB twice a week takes a year. Once a week takes 2.5 years because I don't think it's a 1 to 1 rstion there as the not playing 6 days apart creates a variable. So that puts a PB clear in 2027 to 2028? That's simply not going to be feasible to commit to something that long for 99.999% of the player base. I don't think the answer though is, "well then you can't do it". Not saying that's your answer, but I think that's the idea now somewhat. I think this big buff speeds that time up but the content mechanics will still be a challenge no matter what BUT feasibility suddenly exists when it didn't exist before entirely.
To answer your question, its not terrible to take a long time. As I mentioned before about my group, we all enjoy each other. As you know, there's good days and bad days in the process but a progressive day after a bad day feels all the better. But, IRL changes for a lot of people. So for example, I have a few different people in GS vs GH. Schedules changed IRL or were expected to change. Taking a long isnt bad BUT, it does cause people to miss out. What if a mid tier group that is semi casual could do GS in 2 or 3 months instead of 6-8? To ME, that seems more reasonable. Most games don't last as long as ESO. So it's not out of the norm to have content achievable in less than 6 months. And of course a GS can be done quicker. Ive seen new GS's happen in 2 runs. There's a lot of variables though that prevent the average player, outside this forum bubble, from even TOUCHING the content we touch. They should be able to touch it easier. Part of why they can't is the community itself and restrictions we've placed. I'm all for ideas though. Perhaps making the time requirements 35 instead of 30 or maybe even 40. Perhaps making the game function better entirely lol?1 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Hey at least someone finally said it.
"I don't like others having an easier time than I had in a video game".
The 1st honest answer of you all. Respect.
You're misquoting me. I said "ut I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it."
Nowhere do I say that I don't like them having an easier time. I just said they need to actually put in a little effort. A tiny smidge.
They still will. Even with a 50% dps spike, content will still require a lot of effort. It just brings in general feasibility where it didn't exist before with many.
All the DPS in the world can't make up for lack of raid awareness.
This, the 50% spike won't help most casual and even mid tier groups. However what it will do is make groups capable of clearing enjoy the content way less because they will be able to take advantage of that spike and will trivialize the content for us.Edited by AdmiralDigby on 18 April 2025 13:571 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Yes absolutely. Powercreep is a great thing. Just in smaller chunks 2-5% each update.AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.
Point 1: I'm all for variety, I'm just not for 50% powercreep.
Point 2: You can absolutely progress and clear all content in this game with 2 hours of run time a week. Each prog will take a group X amount of hours. Based on their skill level. So the end result is the same. It's just a matter of quickly you get there.
Question: What so bad about taking longer to complete a clear? Why not just enjoy the process? When you buy content, wouldn't you want it to last awhile?
Honestly man, I agree with you appreciate the cordial response.
Point 1. Yea, it might be a bit too much but id rather it be too much than too little at this point in the game.
Point 2. I agree here. But. Were 10? 11 years in? Say a PB twice a week takes a year. Once a week takes 2.5 years because I don't think it's a 1 to 1 rstion there as the not playing 6 days apart creates a variable. So that puts a PB clear in 2027 to 2028? That's simply not going to be feasible to commit to something that long for 99.999% of the player base. I don't think the answer though is, "well then you can't do it". Not saying that's your answer, but I think that's the idea now somewhat. I think this big buff speeds that time up but the content mechanics will still be a challenge no matter what BUT feasibility suddenly exists when it didn't exist before entirely.
To answer your question, its not terrible to take a long time. As I mentioned before about my group, we all enjoy each other. As you know, there's good days and bad days in the process but a progressive day after a bad day feels all the better. But, IRL changes for a lot of people. So for example, I have a few different people in GS vs GH. Schedules changed IRL or were expected to change. Taking a long isnt bad BUT, it does cause people to miss out. What if a mid tier group that is semi casual could do GS in 2 or 3 months instead of 6-8? To ME, that seems more reasonable. Most games don't last as long as ESO. So it's not out of the norm to have content achievable in less than 6 months. And of course a GS can be done quicker. Ive seen new GS's happen in 2 runs. There's a lot of variables though that prevent the average player, outside this forum bubble, from even TOUCHING the content we touch. They should be able to touch it easier. Part of why they can't is the community itself and restrictions we've placed. I'm all for ideas though. Perhaps making the time requirements 35 instead of 30 or maybe even 40. Perhaps making the game function better entirely lol?
The fundamental problem in your rational is that the 50% power spike will help you alot. It wont. Heres what will.
1.High APM (Actions per minute is literally your effectiveness...you not wanting to do this...says everything about the struggles of your group)
2. Good Skill Placement
3. Good Time on Target
4. High Raid Awareness
5. Giving people easier builds so they can do 1-4 easier.
The above is just about increasing skill. Doesn't even need to be done as a group. Struggling members could take 5 mins a day. Practice a parse while multi tasking with some other mechanic (sounds familiar...) They could take 5 mins and just practice a rotation while relearning to not stare at the skill bar and actually pay attention to the trial (raid awareness).
5 mins 2-3 days a week of actual meaningful practice to improve your skill as a player would save people Hours and Hours of progging. Only thing a 50% powercreep does is take away HM for skilled players. It now becomes "Vet".
This back and forth is pointless. Go ahead and get the last word.Edited by AdmiralDigby on 18 April 2025 14:085 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Yes absolutely. Powercreep is a great thing. Just in smaller chunks 2-5% each update.AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.
Point 1: I'm all for variety, I'm just not for 50% powercreep.
Point 2: You can absolutely progress and clear all content in this game with 2 hours of run time a week. Each prog will take a group X amount of hours. Based on their skill level. So the end result is the same. It's just a matter of quickly you get there.
Question: What so bad about taking longer to complete a clear? Why not just enjoy the process? When you buy content, wouldn't you want it to last awhile?
Honestly man, I agree with you appreciate the cordial response.
Point 1. Yea, it might be a bit too much but id rather it be too much than too little at this point in the game.
Point 2. I agree here. But. Were 10? 11 years in? Say a PB twice a week takes a year. Once a week takes 2.5 years because I don't think it's a 1 to 1 rstion there as the not playing 6 days apart creates a variable. So that puts a PB clear in 2027 to 2028? That's simply not going to be feasible to commit to something that long for 99.999% of the player base. I don't think the answer though is, "well then you can't do it". Not saying that's your answer, but I think that's the idea now somewhat. I think this big buff speeds that time up but the content mechanics will still be a challenge no matter what BUT feasibility suddenly exists when it didn't exist before entirely.
To answer your question, its not terrible to take a long time. As I mentioned before about my group, we all enjoy each other. As you know, there's good days and bad days in the process but a progressive day after a bad day feels all the better. But, IRL changes for a lot of people. So for example, I have a few different people in GS vs GH. Schedules changed IRL or were expected to change. Taking a long isnt bad BUT, it does cause people to miss out. What if a mid tier group that is semi casual could do GS in 2 or 3 months instead of 6-8? To ME, that seems more reasonable. Most games don't last as long as ESO. So it's not out of the norm to have content achievable in less than 6 months. And of course a GS can be done quicker. Ive seen new GS's happen in 2 runs. There's a lot of variables though that prevent the average player, outside this forum bubble, from even TOUCHING the content we touch. They should be able to touch it easier. Part of why they can't is the community itself and restrictions we've placed. I'm all for ideas though. Perhaps making the time requirements 35 instead of 30 or maybe even 40. Perhaps making the game function better entirely lol?
The fundamental problem in your rational is that the 50% power spike will help you alot. It wont. Heres what will.
1.High APM (Actions per minute is literally your effectiveness...you not wanting to do this...says everything about the struggles of your group)
2. Good Skill Placement
3. Good Time on Target
4. High Raid Awareness
5. Giving people easier builds so they can do 1-4 easier.
The above is just about increasing skill. Doesn't even need to be done as a group. Struggling members could take 5 mins a day. Practice a parse while multi tasking with some other mechanic (sounds familiar...) They could take 5 mins and just practice a rotation while relearning to not stare at the skill bar and actually pay attention to the trial (raid awareness).
5 mins 2-3 days a week of actual meaningful practice to improve your skill as a player would save people Hours and Hours of progging. Only thing a 50% powercreep does is take away HM for skilled players. It now becomes "Vet".
This back and forth is pointless. Go ahead and get the last word.
HM won't go anywhere, Limit yourselves to just 2 arcanist.
What you meant to say, is it takes HM away from your prog. It makes HM a bit more accessible to people who either don't pve as much as you or casuals/newcomers who are wanting to upgrade to harder content.
Trifecta's are the hardest content in the game, and will remain to be there for now. Trifecta's aren't really going to get easier, mainly because trifecta's are based upon mechanics. While a build and high dps helps, there is other factors too.
Trifectas is probably the hardest content out of any game I ever played. Thats just my opinion though.1 -
BeerMoneyPlatypusSoul ShrivenInitially, I planned a 1k words long post, going on about a lot of things about this thread, the update etc.
In the end, I'm not even sure i wanna argue about it.
Good luck op, you have my support.1 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Yes absolutely. Powercreep is a great thing. Just in smaller chunks 2-5% each update.AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.
Point 1: I'm all for variety, I'm just not for 50% powercreep.
Point 2: You can absolutely progress and clear all content in this game with 2 hours of run time a week. Each prog will take a group X amount of hours. Based on their skill level. So the end result is the same. It's just a matter of quickly you get there.
Question: What so bad about taking longer to complete a clear? Why not just enjoy the process? When you buy content, wouldn't you want it to last awhile?
Honestly man, I agree with you appreciate the cordial response.
Point 1. Yea, it might be a bit too much but id rather it be too much than too little at this point in the game.
Point 2. I agree here. But. Were 10? 11 years in? Say a PB twice a week takes a year. Once a week takes 2.5 years because I don't think it's a 1 to 1 rstion there as the not playing 6 days apart creates a variable. So that puts a PB clear in 2027 to 2028? That's simply not going to be feasible to commit to something that long for 99.999% of the player base. I don't think the answer though is, "well then you can't do it". Not saying that's your answer, but I think that's the idea now somewhat. I think this big buff speeds that time up but the content mechanics will still be a challenge no matter what BUT feasibility suddenly exists when it didn't exist before entirely.
To answer your question, its not terrible to take a long time. As I mentioned before about my group, we all enjoy each other. As you know, there's good days and bad days in the process but a progressive day after a bad day feels all the better. But, IRL changes for a lot of people. So for example, I have a few different people in GS vs GH. Schedules changed IRL or were expected to change. Taking a long isnt bad BUT, it does cause people to miss out. What if a mid tier group that is semi casual could do GS in 2 or 3 months instead of 6-8? To ME, that seems more reasonable. Most games don't last as long as ESO. So it's not out of the norm to have content achievable in less than 6 months. And of course a GS can be done quicker. Ive seen new GS's happen in 2 runs. There's a lot of variables though that prevent the average player, outside this forum bubble, from even TOUCHING the content we touch. They should be able to touch it easier. Part of why they can't is the community itself and restrictions we've placed. I'm all for ideas though. Perhaps making the time requirements 35 instead of 30 or maybe even 40. Perhaps making the game function better entirely lol?
The fundamental problem in your rational is that the 50% power spike will help you alot. It wont. Heres what will.
1.High APM (Actions per minute is literally your effectiveness...you not wanting to do this...says everything about the struggles of your group)
2. Good Skill Placement
3. Good Time on Target
4. High Raid Awareness
5. Giving people easier builds so they can do 1-4 easier.
The above is just about increasing skill. Doesn't even need to be done as a group. Struggling members could take 5 mins a day. Practice a parse while multi tasking with some other mechanic (sounds familiar...) They could take 5 mins and just practice a rotation while relearning to not stare at the skill bar and actually pay attention to the trial (raid awareness).
5 mins 2-3 days a week of actual meaningful practice to improve your skill as a player would save people Hours and Hours of progging. Only thing a 50% powercreep does is take away HM for skilled players. It now becomes "Vet".
This back and forth is pointless. Go ahead and get the last word.
HM won't go anywhere, Limit yourselves to just 2 arcanist.
What you meant to say, is it takes HM away from your prog. It makes HM a bit more accessible to people who either don't pve as much as you or casuals/newcomers who are wanting to upgrade to harder content.
Trifecta's are the hardest content in the game, and will remain to be there for now. Trifecta's aren't really going to get easier, mainly because trifecta's are based upon mechanics. While a build and high dps helps, there is other factors too.
Trifectas is probably the hardest content out of any game I ever played. Thats just my opinion though.
I disagree, it won't make it more accessible for casuals. They don't want to put in the effort to just parse and hit 100k even with 4 button Arcs. Nothing will suddenly change. It takes effort to learn the mechs of HM's. Most casuals will never do that.3 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Yes absolutely. Powercreep is a great thing. Just in smaller chunks 2-5% each update.AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.
Point 1: I'm all for variety, I'm just not for 50% powercreep.
Point 2: You can absolutely progress and clear all content in this game with 2 hours of run time a week. Each prog will take a group X amount of hours. Based on their skill level. So the end result is the same. It's just a matter of quickly you get there.
Question: What so bad about taking longer to complete a clear? Why not just enjoy the process? When you buy content, wouldn't you want it to last awhile?
Honestly man, I agree with you appreciate the cordial response.
Point 1. Yea, it might be a bit too much but id rather it be too much than too little at this point in the game.
Point 2. I agree here. But. Were 10? 11 years in? Say a PB twice a week takes a year. Once a week takes 2.5 years because I don't think it's a 1 to 1 rstion there as the not playing 6 days apart creates a variable. So that puts a PB clear in 2027 to 2028? That's simply not going to be feasible to commit to something that long for 99.999% of the player base. I don't think the answer though is, "well then you can't do it". Not saying that's your answer, but I think that's the idea now somewhat. I think this big buff speeds that time up but the content mechanics will still be a challenge no matter what BUT feasibility suddenly exists when it didn't exist before entirely.
To answer your question, its not terrible to take a long time. As I mentioned before about my group, we all enjoy each other. As you know, there's good days and bad days in the process but a progressive day after a bad day feels all the better. But, IRL changes for a lot of people. So for example, I have a few different people in GS vs GH. Schedules changed IRL or were expected to change. Taking a long isnt bad BUT, it does cause people to miss out. What if a mid tier group that is semi casual could do GS in 2 or 3 months instead of 6-8? To ME, that seems more reasonable. Most games don't last as long as ESO. So it's not out of the norm to have content achievable in less than 6 months. And of course a GS can be done quicker. Ive seen new GS's happen in 2 runs. There's a lot of variables though that prevent the average player, outside this forum bubble, from even TOUCHING the content we touch. They should be able to touch it easier. Part of why they can't is the community itself and restrictions we've placed. I'm all for ideas though. Perhaps making the time requirements 35 instead of 30 or maybe even 40. Perhaps making the game function better entirely lol?
The fundamental problem in your rational is that the 50% power spike will help you alot. It wont. Heres what will.
1.High APM (Actions per minute is literally your effectiveness...you not wanting to do this...says everything about the struggles of your group)
2. Good Skill Placement
3. Good Time on Target
4. High Raid Awareness
5. Giving people easier builds so they can do 1-4 easier.
The above is just about increasing skill. Doesn't even need to be done as a group. Struggling members could take 5 mins a day. Practice a parse while multi tasking with some other mechanic (sounds familiar...) They could take 5 mins and just practice a rotation while relearning to not stare at the skill bar and actually pay attention to the trial (raid awareness).
5 mins 2-3 days a week of actual meaningful practice to improve your skill as a player would save people Hours and Hours of progging. Only thing a 50% powercreep does is take away HM for skilled players. It now becomes "Vet".
This back and forth is pointless. Go ahead and get the last word.
you have already been moderated for the back and forth and the condescending comments towards me and my group. I compliment you being cordial and you go back to not being very cordial talking about my group "struggling" when were doing just fine as I have stated a ton of times and again as i have also stated, this isnt about my group. I dont know why you are hyper focused on it as I point out over and over again that my support for this update is the positive effect it has on the vast number of players i have seen come and go that never could even get into prog groups. That point continues to go ignored, and circles back to the obsession with my group which is getting weird at this point.
Heres a contradiction you are struggling with in regard to debating this update as a topic. "A 50% power spike will help you a lot, it wont". Then "HM becomes vet for skilled players". So either youre saying that a group that cleared a GH in 3 months isnt skilled, or you are contradicting yourself.Edited by TORCH15 on 18 April 2025 14:410 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Yes absolutely. Powercreep is a great thing. Just in smaller chunks 2-5% each update.AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.
Point 1: I'm all for variety, I'm just not for 50% powercreep.
Point 2: You can absolutely progress and clear all content in this game with 2 hours of run time a week. Each prog will take a group X amount of hours. Based on their skill level. So the end result is the same. It's just a matter of quickly you get there.
Question: What so bad about taking longer to complete a clear? Why not just enjoy the process? When you buy content, wouldn't you want it to last awhile?
Honestly man, I agree with you appreciate the cordial response.
Point 1. Yea, it might be a bit too much but id rather it be too much than too little at this point in the game.
Point 2. I agree here. But. Were 10? 11 years in? Say a PB twice a week takes a year. Once a week takes 2.5 years because I don't think it's a 1 to 1 rstion there as the not playing 6 days apart creates a variable. So that puts a PB clear in 2027 to 2028? That's simply not going to be feasible to commit to something that long for 99.999% of the player base. I don't think the answer though is, "well then you can't do it". Not saying that's your answer, but I think that's the idea now somewhat. I think this big buff speeds that time up but the content mechanics will still be a challenge no matter what BUT feasibility suddenly exists when it didn't exist before entirely.
To answer your question, its not terrible to take a long time. As I mentioned before about my group, we all enjoy each other. As you know, there's good days and bad days in the process but a progressive day after a bad day feels all the better. But, IRL changes for a lot of people. So for example, I have a few different people in GS vs GH. Schedules changed IRL or were expected to change. Taking a long isnt bad BUT, it does cause people to miss out. What if a mid tier group that is semi casual could do GS in 2 or 3 months instead of 6-8? To ME, that seems more reasonable. Most games don't last as long as ESO. So it's not out of the norm to have content achievable in less than 6 months. And of course a GS can be done quicker. Ive seen new GS's happen in 2 runs. There's a lot of variables though that prevent the average player, outside this forum bubble, from even TOUCHING the content we touch. They should be able to touch it easier. Part of why they can't is the community itself and restrictions we've placed. I'm all for ideas though. Perhaps making the time requirements 35 instead of 30 or maybe even 40. Perhaps making the game function better entirely lol?
The fundamental problem in your rational is that the 50% power spike will help you alot. It wont. Heres what will.
1.High APM (Actions per minute is literally your effectiveness...you not wanting to do this...says everything about the struggles of your group)
2. Good Skill Placement
3. Good Time on Target
4. High Raid Awareness
5. Giving people easier builds so they can do 1-4 easier.
The above is just about increasing skill. Doesn't even need to be done as a group. Struggling members could take 5 mins a day. Practice a parse while multi tasking with some other mechanic (sounds familiar...) They could take 5 mins and just practice a rotation while relearning to not stare at the skill bar and actually pay attention to the trial (raid awareness).
5 mins 2-3 days a week of actual meaningful practice to improve your skill as a player would save people Hours and Hours of progging. Only thing a 50% powercreep does is take away HM for skilled players. It now becomes "Vet".
This back and forth is pointless. Go ahead and get the last word.
HM won't go anywhere, Limit yourselves to just 2 arcanist.
What you meant to say, is it takes HM away from your prog. It makes HM a bit more accessible to people who either don't pve as much as you or casuals/newcomers who are wanting to upgrade to harder content.
Trifecta's are the hardest content in the game, and will remain to be there for now. Trifecta's aren't really going to get easier, mainly because trifecta's are based upon mechanics. While a build and high dps helps, there is other factors too.
Trifectas is probably the hardest content out of any game I ever played. Thats just my opinion though.
I disagree, it won't make it more accessible for casuals. They don't want to put in the effort to just parse and hit 100k even with 4 button Arcs. Nothing will suddenly change. It takes effort to learn the mechs of HM's. Most casuals will never do that.
Well you didn't fully understand what I said, When i mentioned casuals I specifically said the ones who wanna get out of the casual category. So new Endgamers.
You always should encourage new players whether they be brand new, new to this content, or veterans in other categories of the game who want to get into this content.1 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Yes absolutely. Powercreep is a great thing. Just in smaller chunks 2-5% each update.AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.
Point 1: I'm all for variety, I'm just not for 50% powercreep.
Point 2: You can absolutely progress and clear all content in this game with 2 hours of run time a week. Each prog will take a group X amount of hours. Based on their skill level. So the end result is the same. It's just a matter of quickly you get there.
Question: What so bad about taking longer to complete a clear? Why not just enjoy the process? When you buy content, wouldn't you want it to last awhile?
Honestly man, I agree with you appreciate the cordial response.
Point 1. Yea, it might be a bit too much but id rather it be too much than too little at this point in the game.
Point 2. I agree here. But. Were 10? 11 years in? Say a PB twice a week takes a year. Once a week takes 2.5 years because I don't think it's a 1 to 1 rstion there as the not playing 6 days apart creates a variable. So that puts a PB clear in 2027 to 2028? That's simply not going to be feasible to commit to something that long for 99.999% of the player base. I don't think the answer though is, "well then you can't do it". Not saying that's your answer, but I think that's the idea now somewhat. I think this big buff speeds that time up but the content mechanics will still be a challenge no matter what BUT feasibility suddenly exists when it didn't exist before entirely.
To answer your question, its not terrible to take a long time. As I mentioned before about my group, we all enjoy each other. As you know, there's good days and bad days in the process but a progressive day after a bad day feels all the better. But, IRL changes for a lot of people. So for example, I have a few different people in GS vs GH. Schedules changed IRL or were expected to change. Taking a long isnt bad BUT, it does cause people to miss out. What if a mid tier group that is semi casual could do GS in 2 or 3 months instead of 6-8? To ME, that seems more reasonable. Most games don't last as long as ESO. So it's not out of the norm to have content achievable in less than 6 months. And of course a GS can be done quicker. Ive seen new GS's happen in 2 runs. There's a lot of variables though that prevent the average player, outside this forum bubble, from even TOUCHING the content we touch. They should be able to touch it easier. Part of why they can't is the community itself and restrictions we've placed. I'm all for ideas though. Perhaps making the time requirements 35 instead of 30 or maybe even 40. Perhaps making the game function better entirely lol?
The fundamental problem in your rational is that the 50% power spike will help you alot. It wont. Heres what will.
1.High APM (Actions per minute is literally your effectiveness...you not wanting to do this...says everything about the struggles of your group)
2. Good Skill Placement
3. Good Time on Target
4. High Raid Awareness
5. Giving people easier builds so they can do 1-4 easier.
The above is just about increasing skill. Doesn't even need to be done as a group. Struggling members could take 5 mins a day. Practice a parse while multi tasking with some other mechanic (sounds familiar...) They could take 5 mins and just practice a rotation while relearning to not stare at the skill bar and actually pay attention to the trial (raid awareness).
5 mins 2-3 days a week of actual meaningful practice to improve your skill as a player would save people Hours and Hours of progging. Only thing a 50% powercreep does is take away HM for skilled players. It now becomes "Vet".
This back and forth is pointless. Go ahead and get the last word.
you have already been moderated for the back and forth and the condescending comments towards me and my group. I compliment you being cordial and you go back to not being very cordial talking about my group "struggling" when were doing just fine as I have stated a ton of times and again as i have also stated, this isnt about my group. I dont know why you are hyper focused on it as I point out over and over again that my support for this update is the positive effect it has on the vast number of players i have seen come and go that never could even get into prog groups. That point continues to go ignored, and circles back to the obsession with my group which is getting weird at this point.
Heres a contradiction you are struggling with in regard to debating this update as a topic. "A 50% power spike will help you a lot, it wont". Then "HM becomes vet for skilled players". So either youre saying that a group that cleared a GH in 3 months isnt skilled, or you are contradicting yourself.
The problem is you spread misinformation. Which I feel I need to correct.
1. I didn't have any of my posts moderated. At least I didn't get a notification or message from a Mod saying so.
2. Our group did GH in 6 Days (I think 11 of us didn't have it??). What I'm saying is if you want to shorten all of your progs for the duration of your time playing this game. Focus on improving the things I laid out. It will help you more than 50% powercreep ever could.
3. This isn't me trying to brag our group is more skilled than yours or any other group. There are plenty of groups more skilled then ours and less skilled as well (the same can be said about most groups). What I'm saying is skill is the driving factor of success. All groups should focus on that. They don't. They think it's this set or that set. Or some minor thing. Instead of looking in the mirror. Saying "You know what...I have low APM and I'm dying constantly because I looking at my bar" working to improve those things and progress.
Just to clear the more important things up that try to paint me in a bad light. However youre all over the place with contradicting statements it's just a mess to try to discuss issues with you. You've said multiple times now how your group struggles with X,Y,Z then next statement you say your group isn't struggling.
Edited by AdmiralDigby on 18 April 2025 14:421 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Hey at least someone finally said it.
"I don't like others having an easier time than I had in a video game".
The 1st honest answer of you all. Respect.
You're misquoting me. I said "ut I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it."
Nowhere do I say that I don't like them having an easier time. I just said they need to actually put in a little effort. A tiny smidge.
They still will. Even with a 50% dps spike, content will still require a lot of effort. It just brings in general feasibility where it didn't exist before with many.
All the DPS in the world can't make up for lack of raid awareness.
This, the 50% spike won't help most casual and even mid tier groups. However what it will do is make groups capable of clearing enjoy the content way less because they will be able to take advantage of that spike and will trivialize the content for us.
A tiny bubble of people upset over having things a little easier doesnt trump thousands being able to get into things they couldnt touch before. Excited for the update for those people, who make ESO a thing still.0 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Yes absolutely. Powercreep is a great thing. Just in smaller chunks 2-5% each update.AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.
Point 1: I'm all for variety, I'm just not for 50% powercreep.
Point 2: You can absolutely progress and clear all content in this game with 2 hours of run time a week. Each prog will take a group X amount of hours. Based on their skill level. So the end result is the same. It's just a matter of quickly you get there.
Question: What so bad about taking longer to complete a clear? Why not just enjoy the process? When you buy content, wouldn't you want it to last awhile?
Honestly man, I agree with you appreciate the cordial response.
Point 1. Yea, it might be a bit too much but id rather it be too much than too little at this point in the game.
Point 2. I agree here. But. Were 10? 11 years in? Say a PB twice a week takes a year. Once a week takes 2.5 years because I don't think it's a 1 to 1 rstion there as the not playing 6 days apart creates a variable. So that puts a PB clear in 2027 to 2028? That's simply not going to be feasible to commit to something that long for 99.999% of the player base. I don't think the answer though is, "well then you can't do it". Not saying that's your answer, but I think that's the idea now somewhat. I think this big buff speeds that time up but the content mechanics will still be a challenge no matter what BUT feasibility suddenly exists when it didn't exist before entirely.
To answer your question, its not terrible to take a long time. As I mentioned before about my group, we all enjoy each other. As you know, there's good days and bad days in the process but a progressive day after a bad day feels all the better. But, IRL changes for a lot of people. So for example, I have a few different people in GS vs GH. Schedules changed IRL or were expected to change. Taking a long isnt bad BUT, it does cause people to miss out. What if a mid tier group that is semi casual could do GS in 2 or 3 months instead of 6-8? To ME, that seems more reasonable. Most games don't last as long as ESO. So it's not out of the norm to have content achievable in less than 6 months. And of course a GS can be done quicker. Ive seen new GS's happen in 2 runs. There's a lot of variables though that prevent the average player, outside this forum bubble, from even TOUCHING the content we touch. They should be able to touch it easier. Part of why they can't is the community itself and restrictions we've placed. I'm all for ideas though. Perhaps making the time requirements 35 instead of 30 or maybe even 40. Perhaps making the game function better entirely lol?
The fundamental problem in your rational is that the 50% power spike will help you alot. It wont. Heres what will.
1.High APM (Actions per minute is literally your effectiveness...you not wanting to do this...says everything about the struggles of your group)
2. Good Skill Placement
3. Good Time on Target
4. High Raid Awareness
5. Giving people easier builds so they can do 1-4 easier.
The above is just about increasing skill. Doesn't even need to be done as a group. Struggling members could take 5 mins a day. Practice a parse while multi tasking with some other mechanic (sounds familiar...) They could take 5 mins and just practice a rotation while relearning to not stare at the skill bar and actually pay attention to the trial (raid awareness).
5 mins 2-3 days a week of actual meaningful practice to improve your skill as a player would save people Hours and Hours of progging. Only thing a 50% powercreep does is take away HM for skilled players. It now becomes "Vet".
This back and forth is pointless. Go ahead and get the last word.
HM won't go anywhere, Limit yourselves to just 2 arcanist.
What you meant to say, is it takes HM away from your prog. It makes HM a bit more accessible to people who either don't pve as much as you or casuals/newcomers who are wanting to upgrade to harder content.
Trifecta's are the hardest content in the game, and will remain to be there for now. Trifecta's aren't really going to get easier, mainly because trifecta's are based upon mechanics. While a build and high dps helps, there is other factors too.
Trifectas is probably the hardest content out of any game I ever played. Thats just my opinion though.
Thats his issue. He cant see outside his own bubble and realize there are mass amounts of players that this update will be exciting for.0 -
TORCH15✭✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »Exactly. Can't break what's already broken, can't kill what's already dead. Meanwhile, I don't think I've seen this much excitement and action on the PTS since before Summerset.
Same. The actually larger community that makes ESO continue to be strong likes this. This forum is filled with a small bubble of people. Honestly for feedback for Zos if they read this...make this forum more open because its filled with people that have limited views of how the game community actually is.0 -
TORCH15✭✭✭it should be obvious that the real problem is not the subclassing but the nature of the content itself. Over reliance on extreme dps and move now or die mechanics to procede is why these problems exist in the first place. This and other games would be more popular if they realized this isnt really a good formula and there are other ways to do things.
yea. Its one thing for a souls-like to be extremely hard because you arent relying on 11 other friends schedules, skill level, etc. These people's problem is that they view trials and the people in them like numbers on a spreadsheet and see title over people. Its a job to them and others want to have fun an achieve things a little easier without spending a YEAR to accomplish one thing. No other game requires a YEAR to beat something lol. I like a challenge but in the long run, this update will bring feasibility where it didnt exist before and the elite groups can be mad all day , it wont matter. they can leave.1 -
sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Yes absolutely. Powercreep is a great thing. Just in smaller chunks 2-5% each update.AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.
Point 1: I'm all for variety, I'm just not for 50% powercreep.
Point 2: You can absolutely progress and clear all content in this game with 2 hours of run time a week. Each prog will take a group X amount of hours. Based on their skill level. So the end result is the same. It's just a matter of quickly you get there.
Question: What so bad about taking longer to complete a clear? Why not just enjoy the process? When you buy content, wouldn't you want it to last awhile?
Honestly man, I agree with you appreciate the cordial response.
Point 1. Yea, it might be a bit too much but id rather it be too much than too little at this point in the game.
Point 2. I agree here. But. Were 10? 11 years in? Say a PB twice a week takes a year. Once a week takes 2.5 years because I don't think it's a 1 to 1 rstion there as the not playing 6 days apart creates a variable. So that puts a PB clear in 2027 to 2028? That's simply not going to be feasible to commit to something that long for 99.999% of the player base. I don't think the answer though is, "well then you can't do it". Not saying that's your answer, but I think that's the idea now somewhat. I think this big buff speeds that time up but the content mechanics will still be a challenge no matter what BUT feasibility suddenly exists when it didn't exist before entirely.
To answer your question, its not terrible to take a long time. As I mentioned before about my group, we all enjoy each other. As you know, there's good days and bad days in the process but a progressive day after a bad day feels all the better. But, IRL changes for a lot of people. So for example, I have a few different people in GS vs GH. Schedules changed IRL or were expected to change. Taking a long isnt bad BUT, it does cause people to miss out. What if a mid tier group that is semi casual could do GS in 2 or 3 months instead of 6-8? To ME, that seems more reasonable. Most games don't last as long as ESO. So it's not out of the norm to have content achievable in less than 6 months. And of course a GS can be done quicker. Ive seen new GS's happen in 2 runs. There's a lot of variables though that prevent the average player, outside this forum bubble, from even TOUCHING the content we touch. They should be able to touch it easier. Part of why they can't is the community itself and restrictions we've placed. I'm all for ideas though. Perhaps making the time requirements 35 instead of 30 or maybe even 40. Perhaps making the game function better entirely lol?
The fundamental problem in your rational is that the 50% power spike will help you alot. It wont. Heres what will.
1.High APM (Actions per minute is literally your effectiveness...you not wanting to do this...says everything about the struggles of your group)
2. Good Skill Placement
3. Good Time on Target
4. High Raid Awareness
5. Giving people easier builds so they can do 1-4 easier.
The above is just about increasing skill. Doesn't even need to be done as a group. Struggling members could take 5 mins a day. Practice a parse while multi tasking with some other mechanic (sounds familiar...) They could take 5 mins and just practice a rotation while relearning to not stare at the skill bar and actually pay attention to the trial (raid awareness).
5 mins 2-3 days a week of actual meaningful practice to improve your skill as a player would save people Hours and Hours of progging. Only thing a 50% powercreep does is take away HM for skilled players. It now becomes "Vet".
This back and forth is pointless. Go ahead and get the last word.
HM won't go anywhere, Limit yourselves to just 2 arcanist.
What you meant to say, is it takes HM away from your prog. It makes HM a bit more accessible to people who either don't pve as much as you or casuals/newcomers who are wanting to upgrade to harder content.
Trifecta's are the hardest content in the game, and will remain to be there for now. Trifecta's aren't really going to get easier, mainly because trifecta's are based upon mechanics. While a build and high dps helps, there is other factors too.
Trifectas is probably the hardest content out of any game I ever played. Thats just my opinion though.
Thats his issue. He cant see outside his own bubble and realize there are mass amounts of players that this update will be exciting for.
@TORCH15, your messaging here pivots so frequently it’s difficult to track what principle you’re actually defending. One moment, you’re arguing that this power spike is about accessibility for those “outside the bubble” of endgame groups. The next, you’re holding your own group up as proof that progress is still possible under current constraints. And in another breath, you’re insisting this isn’t about your group at all. You want to use your experience as a credential, but then insist criticism of your claims is irrelevant because “it’s not about your group.” You can’t have it both ways.
You claim the update helps players who otherwise can’t touch this content due to availability, yet also say the mechanics will still be a challenge and that skill still matters. Then you undercut that point by saying 50% power creep will finally make things “feasible.” Which is it? Is the content already skill-accessible, or does it require a massive numerical boost just to reach the baseline?
The contradiction here is foundational: if mechanics are still the main barrier (as you say they are), and the 50% damage spike doesn’t trivialize them (as you hope), then accessibility doesn’t fundamentally change. If, however, the damage boost does trivialize key mechanics or bypass DPS checks, then it’s not simply “variety” being enabled but design being undermined.
The more uncomfortable reality is that this proposal doesn’t expand accessibility so much as it redefines content through brute force, not skill. A player or group still uninterested in engaging with mechanics—still unwilling to learn—won’t be magically “included” by this change. They’ll simply be rushed past design thresholds they never learned to cross.Edited by sans-culottes on 18 April 2025 14:586 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Yes absolutely. Powercreep is a great thing. Just in smaller chunks 2-5% each update.AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.
Point 1: I'm all for variety, I'm just not for 50% powercreep.
Point 2: You can absolutely progress and clear all content in this game with 2 hours of run time a week. Each prog will take a group X amount of hours. Based on their skill level. So the end result is the same. It's just a matter of quickly you get there.
Question: What so bad about taking longer to complete a clear? Why not just enjoy the process? When you buy content, wouldn't you want it to last awhile?
Honestly man, I agree with you appreciate the cordial response.
Point 1. Yea, it might be a bit too much but id rather it be too much than too little at this point in the game.
Point 2. I agree here. But. Were 10? 11 years in? Say a PB twice a week takes a year. Once a week takes 2.5 years because I don't think it's a 1 to 1 rstion there as the not playing 6 days apart creates a variable. So that puts a PB clear in 2027 to 2028? That's simply not going to be feasible to commit to something that long for 99.999% of the player base. I don't think the answer though is, "well then you can't do it". Not saying that's your answer, but I think that's the idea now somewhat. I think this big buff speeds that time up but the content mechanics will still be a challenge no matter what BUT feasibility suddenly exists when it didn't exist before entirely.
To answer your question, its not terrible to take a long time. As I mentioned before about my group, we all enjoy each other. As you know, there's good days and bad days in the process but a progressive day after a bad day feels all the better. But, IRL changes for a lot of people. So for example, I have a few different people in GS vs GH. Schedules changed IRL or were expected to change. Taking a long isnt bad BUT, it does cause people to miss out. What if a mid tier group that is semi casual could do GS in 2 or 3 months instead of 6-8? To ME, that seems more reasonable. Most games don't last as long as ESO. So it's not out of the norm to have content achievable in less than 6 months. And of course a GS can be done quicker. Ive seen new GS's happen in 2 runs. There's a lot of variables though that prevent the average player, outside this forum bubble, from even TOUCHING the content we touch. They should be able to touch it easier. Part of why they can't is the community itself and restrictions we've placed. I'm all for ideas though. Perhaps making the time requirements 35 instead of 30 or maybe even 40. Perhaps making the game function better entirely lol?
The fundamental problem in your rational is that the 50% power spike will help you alot. It wont. Heres what will.
1.High APM (Actions per minute is literally your effectiveness...you not wanting to do this...says everything about the struggles of your group)
2. Good Skill Placement
3. Good Time on Target
4. High Raid Awareness
5. Giving people easier builds so they can do 1-4 easier.
The above is just about increasing skill. Doesn't even need to be done as a group. Struggling members could take 5 mins a day. Practice a parse while multi tasking with some other mechanic (sounds familiar...) They could take 5 mins and just practice a rotation while relearning to not stare at the skill bar and actually pay attention to the trial (raid awareness).
5 mins 2-3 days a week of actual meaningful practice to improve your skill as a player would save people Hours and Hours of progging. Only thing a 50% powercreep does is take away HM for skilled players. It now becomes "Vet".
This back and forth is pointless. Go ahead and get the last word.
you have already been moderated for the back and forth and the condescending comments towards me and my group. I compliment you being cordial and you go back to not being very cordial talking about my group "struggling" when were doing just fine as I have stated a ton of times and again as i have also stated, this isnt about my group. I dont know why you are hyper focused on it as I point out over and over again that my support for this update is the positive effect it has on the vast number of players i have seen come and go that never could even get into prog groups. That point continues to go ignored, and circles back to the obsession with my group which is getting weird at this point.
Heres a contradiction you are struggling with in regard to debating this update as a topic. "A 50% power spike will help you a lot, it wont". Then "HM becomes vet for skilled players". So either youre saying that a group that cleared a GH in 3 months isnt skilled, or you are contradicting yourself.
The problem is you spread misinformation. Which I feel I need to correct.
1. I didn't have any of my posts moderated. At least I didn't get a notification or message from a Mod saying so.
2. Our group did GH in 6 Days (I think 11 of us didn't have it??). What I'm saying is if you want to shorten all of your progs for the duration of your time playing this game. Focus on improving the things I laid out. It will help you more than 50% powercreep ever could.
3. This isn't me trying to brag our group is more skilled than yours or any other group. There are plenty of groups more skilled then ours and less skilled as well (the same can be said about most groups). What I'm saying is skill is the driving factor of success. All groups should focus on that. They don't. They think it's this set or that set. Or some minor thing. Instead of looking in the mirror. Saying "You know what...I have low APM and I'm dying constantly because I looking at my bar" working to improve those things and progress.
Just to clear the more important things up that try to paint me in a bad light. However youre all over the place with contradicting statements it's just a mess to try to discuss issues with you. You've said multiple times now how your group struggles with X,Y,Z then next statement you say your group isn't struggling.
You dont have the ultimate ruling of what information is accurate or not nor do you have the right to go around "correcting" information. This is all opinion and feedback based for an update.
1. You dont get a notification. They were removed and they commented about it. Scroll up.
2. yea so ours did it in maybe 12-15 days of running once a week with 12 new which i think is fairly reasonable and was our 1st trifecta as well with a new group. Im not bothered by that at all as ive stated .
3. I didnt take it as bragging. And i have never once said my group is struggling. YOU said that. From information YOU were told elsewhere, or perhaps you are confused. Please go find where i said that and quote me. That is literally making things up at this point while saying im all over the place.
The average players isnt strategizing "APM". The average player keeps ESO alive. This update is for the average player.Edited by TORCH15 on 18 April 2025 15:221 -
TORCH15✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Yes absolutely. Powercreep is a great thing. Just in smaller chunks 2-5% each update.AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.
Point 1: I'm all for variety, I'm just not for 50% powercreep.
Point 2: You can absolutely progress and clear all content in this game with 2 hours of run time a week. Each prog will take a group X amount of hours. Based on their skill level. So the end result is the same. It's just a matter of quickly you get there.
Question: What so bad about taking longer to complete a clear? Why not just enjoy the process? When you buy content, wouldn't you want it to last awhile?
Honestly man, I agree with you appreciate the cordial response.
Point 1. Yea, it might be a bit too much but id rather it be too much than too little at this point in the game.
Point 2. I agree here. But. Were 10? 11 years in? Say a PB twice a week takes a year. Once a week takes 2.5 years because I don't think it's a 1 to 1 rstion there as the not playing 6 days apart creates a variable. So that puts a PB clear in 2027 to 2028? That's simply not going to be feasible to commit to something that long for 99.999% of the player base. I don't think the answer though is, "well then you can't do it". Not saying that's your answer, but I think that's the idea now somewhat. I think this big buff speeds that time up but the content mechanics will still be a challenge no matter what BUT feasibility suddenly exists when it didn't exist before entirely.
To answer your question, its not terrible to take a long time. As I mentioned before about my group, we all enjoy each other. As you know, there's good days and bad days in the process but a progressive day after a bad day feels all the better. But, IRL changes for a lot of people. So for example, I have a few different people in GS vs GH. Schedules changed IRL or were expected to change. Taking a long isnt bad BUT, it does cause people to miss out. What if a mid tier group that is semi casual could do GS in 2 or 3 months instead of 6-8? To ME, that seems more reasonable. Most games don't last as long as ESO. So it's not out of the norm to have content achievable in less than 6 months. And of course a GS can be done quicker. Ive seen new GS's happen in 2 runs. There's a lot of variables though that prevent the average player, outside this forum bubble, from even TOUCHING the content we touch. They should be able to touch it easier. Part of why they can't is the community itself and restrictions we've placed. I'm all for ideas though. Perhaps making the time requirements 35 instead of 30 or maybe even 40. Perhaps making the game function better entirely lol?
The fundamental problem in your rational is that the 50% power spike will help you alot. It wont. Heres what will.
1.High APM (Actions per minute is literally your effectiveness...you not wanting to do this...says everything about the struggles of your group)
2. Good Skill Placement
3. Good Time on Target
4. High Raid Awareness
5. Giving people easier builds so they can do 1-4 easier.
The above is just about increasing skill. Doesn't even need to be done as a group. Struggling members could take 5 mins a day. Practice a parse while multi tasking with some other mechanic (sounds familiar...) They could take 5 mins and just practice a rotation while relearning to not stare at the skill bar and actually pay attention to the trial (raid awareness).
5 mins 2-3 days a week of actual meaningful practice to improve your skill as a player would save people Hours and Hours of progging. Only thing a 50% powercreep does is take away HM for skilled players. It now becomes "Vet".
This back and forth is pointless. Go ahead and get the last word.
HM won't go anywhere, Limit yourselves to just 2 arcanist.
What you meant to say, is it takes HM away from your prog. It makes HM a bit more accessible to people who either don't pve as much as you or casuals/newcomers who are wanting to upgrade to harder content.
Trifecta's are the hardest content in the game, and will remain to be there for now. Trifecta's aren't really going to get easier, mainly because trifecta's are based upon mechanics. While a build and high dps helps, there is other factors too.
Trifectas is probably the hardest content out of any game I ever played. Thats just my opinion though.
Thats his issue. He cant see outside his own bubble and realize there are mass amounts of players that this update will be exciting for.
@TORCH15, your messaging here pivots so frequently it’s difficult to track what principle you’re actually defending. One moment, you’re arguing that this power spike is about accessibility for those “outside the bubble” of endgame groups. The next, you’re holding your own group up as proof that progress is still possible under current constraints. And in another breath, you’re insisting this isn’t about your group at all. You want to use your experience as a credential, but then insist criticism of your claims is irrelevant because “it’s not about your group.” You can’t have it both ways.
You claim the update helps players who otherwise can’t touch this content due to availability, yet also say the mechanics will still be a challenge and that skill still matters. Then you undercut that point by saying 50% power creep will finally make things “feasible.” Which is it? Is the content already skill-accessible, or does it require a massive numerical boost just to reach the baseline?
The contradiction here is foundational: if mechanics are still the main barrier (as you say they are), and the 50% damage spike doesn’t trivialize them (as you hope), then accessibility doesn’t fundamentally change. If, however, the damage boost does trivialize key mechanics or bypass DPS checks, then it’s not simply “variety” being enabled but design being undermined.
The more uncomfortable reality is that this proposal doesn’t expand accessibility so much as it redefines content through brute force, not skill. A player or group still uninterested in engaging with mechanics—still unwilling to learn—won’t be magically “included” by this change. They’ll simply be rushed past design thresholds they never learned to cross.
Youve gotten caught up in the back and forth of my group discussion because the individual doing so is provocative intentionally therefore the discussion has gotten sideways too many times. I struggle to keep up myself at this point because talking briefly about my group in the OP has become hyper focused when that isnt the main point of being happy about this. I used my group as an example originally to describe why even mid tier groups will benefit from this change, and less than mid tier even more.
I absolutely can have it both ways. My group is limited based on time available of the players to play ESO entirely within it. Therefore, based on that experience, I can say that limited availability players will benefit from this change based on my experience of our progress. Though its successful under current constraints, this update will likely lessen the time required to play ESO to achieve certain things for players that time restrictions affect. Hence, its plausible to say that players that dont even attempt to get into end game because of this, may try and even have SOME success, therefore my notion about new players coming into end game that didnt exist before.
Lets use the Oaken Ring for an example. How many people couldnt even dream of a VAS2 clear before that mythic arrived? How many new names got silver and IR after? A new update brought feasibility where it didnt exist before for many, many people. That is fact.
So, if this update does 25% of what Oaken did for VAS2 for all of the current DLC HM's for the average players, that is a big win for ESO and the community. Does that make sense? Is that a clearer example?
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AdmiralDigby✭✭✭1. I don't think any of my post's were included in that. I think it was yours & Dimes (could be wrong).
2. Yes, I'm sure this was possible with Arcanists which provide a really easy option to get great DPS. This is something ZOS has done. Prior to this I'm sure your team would have struggled to clear with older builds that require high APM. ZOS introducing easier options for less skilled players is a good thing. However it can be overdone. For example....170k AOE damage type of overdone...
3. You've contradicted yourself multiple times over and over and other people are picking up on it as well.
The AVG player will continue to not optimize and play overland and struggle with Vet Banished Cells because they are not interested in looking up or theory crafting a build that is half optimized. You could give them a 200% power spike and it wouldn't help them. Because they don't care. Which is fine, they can play the game how they want.
At this point I'm just gonna respond with I disagree for previously stated reasons.1 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »1. I don't think any of my post's were included in that. I think it was yours & Dimes (could be wrong).
2. Yes, I'm sure this was possible with Arcanists which provide a really easy option to get great DPS. This is something ZOS has done. Prior to this I'm sure your team would have struggled to clear with older builds that require high APM. ZOS introducing easier options for less skilled players is a good thing. However it can be overdone. For example....170k AOE damage type of overdone...
3. You've contradicted yourself multiple times over and over and other people are picking up on it as well.
The AVG player will continue to not optimize and play overland and struggle with Vet Banished Cells because they are not interested in looking up or theory crafting a build that is half optimized. You could give them a 200% power spike and it wouldn't help them. Because they don't care. Which is fine, they can play the game how they want.
At this point I'm just gonna respond with I disagree for previously stated reasons.
1. yea it was yours and his. Some of mine as well in response, particularly around the bad leader attack on me, by you.
2. Still condescending towards my group which you seem to be hyper focused on and its bizarre. Rent free. Not sure why you are obsessed with assuming struggles of my group that dont exist in the manner you keep saying over and over again to be provocative. Baiting is also against these community rules so id appreciate if you would stop engaging with me in a way that violates civility rules. thanks.
3. I haven't contradicted myself at all. Provide an example and il respond. Others have their opinions and have cordially responded, unlike you. I have quite a few agree reacts on my OP as well. you underestimate the average player based on a bubble you cant get your mind out of. Its why my GH cleared with people you would have kicked and it had nothing to do with arcanists. Hence, my point. People that would have gotten kicked may not anymore. Thats great. Im glad this update is coming.0 -
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✭sans-culottes wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Yes absolutely. Powercreep is a great thing. Just in smaller chunks 2-5% each update.AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.
Point 1: I'm all for variety, I'm just not for 50% powercreep.
Point 2: You can absolutely progress and clear all content in this game with 2 hours of run time a week. Each prog will take a group X amount of hours. Based on their skill level. So the end result is the same. It's just a matter of quickly you get there.
Question: What so bad about taking longer to complete a clear? Why not just enjoy the process? When you buy content, wouldn't you want it to last awhile?
Honestly man, I agree with you appreciate the cordial response.
Point 1. Yea, it might be a bit too much but id rather it be too much than too little at this point in the game.
Point 2. I agree here. But. Were 10? 11 years in? Say a PB twice a week takes a year. Once a week takes 2.5 years because I don't think it's a 1 to 1 rstion there as the not playing 6 days apart creates a variable. So that puts a PB clear in 2027 to 2028? That's simply not going to be feasible to commit to something that long for 99.999% of the player base. I don't think the answer though is, "well then you can't do it". Not saying that's your answer, but I think that's the idea now somewhat. I think this big buff speeds that time up but the content mechanics will still be a challenge no matter what BUT feasibility suddenly exists when it didn't exist before entirely.
To answer your question, its not terrible to take a long time. As I mentioned before about my group, we all enjoy each other. As you know, there's good days and bad days in the process but a progressive day after a bad day feels all the better. But, IRL changes for a lot of people. So for example, I have a few different people in GS vs GH. Schedules changed IRL or were expected to change. Taking a long isnt bad BUT, it does cause people to miss out. What if a mid tier group that is semi casual could do GS in 2 or 3 months instead of 6-8? To ME, that seems more reasonable. Most games don't last as long as ESO. So it's not out of the norm to have content achievable in less than 6 months. And of course a GS can be done quicker. Ive seen new GS's happen in 2 runs. There's a lot of variables though that prevent the average player, outside this forum bubble, from even TOUCHING the content we touch. They should be able to touch it easier. Part of why they can't is the community itself and restrictions we've placed. I'm all for ideas though. Perhaps making the time requirements 35 instead of 30 or maybe even 40. Perhaps making the game function better entirely lol?
The fundamental problem in your rational is that the 50% power spike will help you alot. It wont. Heres what will.
1.High APM (Actions per minute is literally your effectiveness...you not wanting to do this...says everything about the struggles of your group)
2. Good Skill Placement
3. Good Time on Target
4. High Raid Awareness
5. Giving people easier builds so they can do 1-4 easier.
The above is just about increasing skill. Doesn't even need to be done as a group. Struggling members could take 5 mins a day. Practice a parse while multi tasking with some other mechanic (sounds familiar...) They could take 5 mins and just practice a rotation while relearning to not stare at the skill bar and actually pay attention to the trial (raid awareness).
5 mins 2-3 days a week of actual meaningful practice to improve your skill as a player would save people Hours and Hours of progging. Only thing a 50% powercreep does is take away HM for skilled players. It now becomes "Vet".
This back and forth is pointless. Go ahead and get the last word.
HM won't go anywhere, Limit yourselves to just 2 arcanist.
What you meant to say, is it takes HM away from your prog. It makes HM a bit more accessible to people who either don't pve as much as you or casuals/newcomers who are wanting to upgrade to harder content.
Trifecta's are the hardest content in the game, and will remain to be there for now. Trifecta's aren't really going to get easier, mainly because trifecta's are based upon mechanics. While a build and high dps helps, there is other factors too.
Trifectas is probably the hardest content out of any game I ever played. Thats just my opinion though.
Thats his issue. He cant see outside his own bubble and realize there are mass amounts of players that this update will be exciting for.
@TORCH15, your messaging here pivots so frequently it’s difficult to track what principle you’re actually defending. One moment, you’re arguing that this power spike is about accessibility for those “outside the bubble” of endgame groups. The next, you’re holding your own group up as proof that progress is still possible under current constraints. And in another breath, you’re insisting this isn’t about your group at all. You want to use your experience as a credential, but then insist criticism of your claims is irrelevant because “it’s not about your group.” You can’t have it both ways.
You claim the update helps players who otherwise can’t touch this content due to availability, yet also say the mechanics will still be a challenge and that skill still matters. Then you undercut that point by saying 50% power creep will finally make things “feasible.” Which is it? Is the content already skill-accessible, or does it require a massive numerical boost just to reach the baseline?
The contradiction here is foundational: if mechanics are still the main barrier (as you say they are), and the 50% damage spike doesn’t trivialize them (as you hope), then accessibility doesn’t fundamentally change. If, however, the damage boost does trivialize key mechanics or bypass DPS checks, then it’s not simply “variety” being enabled but design being undermined.
The more uncomfortable reality is that this proposal doesn’t expand accessibility so much as it redefines content through brute force, not skill. A player or group still uninterested in engaging with mechanics—still unwilling to learn—won’t be magically “included” by this change. They’ll simply be rushed past design thresholds they never learned to cross.
Youve gotten caught up in the back and forth of my group discussion because the individual doing so is provocative intentionally therefore the discussion has gotten sideways too many times. I struggle to keep up myself at this point because talking briefly about my group in the OP has become hyper focused when that isnt the main point of being happy about this. I used my group as an example originally to describe why even mid tier groups will benefit from this change, and less than mid tier even more.
I absolutely can have it both ways. My group is limited based on time available of the players to play ESO entirely within it. Therefore, based on that experience, I can say that limited availability players will benefit from this change based on my experience of our progress. Though its successful under current constraints, this update will likely lessen the time required to play ESO to achieve certain things for players that time restrictions affect. Hence, its plausible to say that players that dont even attempt to get into end game because of this, may try and even have SOME success, therefore my notion about new players coming into end game that didnt exist before.
Lets use the Oaken Ring for an example. How many people couldnt even dream of a VAS2 clear before that mythic arrived? How many new names got silver and IR after? A new update brought feasibility where it didnt exist before for many, many people. That is fact.
So, if this update does 25% of what Oaken did for VAS2 for all of the current DLC HM's for the average players, that is a big win for ESO and the community. Does that make sense? Is that a clearer example?
@TORCH15, the issue here isn’t that people are misunderstanding you. It’s that your position shifts depending on the point you’re defending. You argue this power spike is necessary because time-restricted players like your group struggle to clear content. Then, when challenged, you present your group’s success as proof that current systems already allow for steady progress. You can’t hold up your experience as both a cautionary tale and a success story. It undercuts the credibility of your broader claims.
The Oakensoul comparison helps illustrate the core problem more clearly than you might realize. Yes, it enabled more players to complete certain content. But it did so by streamlining inputs and reducing complexity, not by encouraging deeper engagement or growth. Players didn’t improve their awareness, adaptability, or mechanics. They simply bypassed them. That kind of accessibility has a place, particularly for those with physical limitations. But when scaled across the entire design space, it risks flattening the game’s progression into a numbers race.
You say mechanics still matter. Yet you advocate a 50% damage increase precisely because, in your words, feasibility doesn’t exist without it. If mechanics remain the primary hurdle, then a power spike shouldn’t be necessary. If mechanics are no longer the hurdle, then we’re not talking about accessibility. We’re talking about bypass. That distinction matters.
The contradiction at the heart of your posts is this: either skill and awareness remain central to endgame success, or raw power becomes the new gatekeeper. You can’t meaningfully have both. Players who aren’t interested in improving—whether due to time, effort, or preference—won’t suddenly engage more deeply just because numbers go up. They’ll pass through content faster, but they won’t necessarily participate in it more fully.
Your intent may be to broaden access, but the method proposed risks eroding the design structures that give content meaning in the first place. Accessibility should enhance engagement, not replace it.4 -
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So, if this update does 25% of what Oaken did for VAS2 for all of the current DLC HM's for the average players, that is a big win for ESO and the community. Does that make sense? Is that a clearer example?
It won't, because DDs both gain power and fragility in this update. You lose the mitigation, healing, sustain passives by giving up your other skill lines in favour of dps skill lines.
This increase in power is nothing like oakensoul raising the floor.1 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »1. I don't think any of my post's were included in that. I think it was yours & Dimes (could be wrong).
2. Yes, I'm sure this was possible with Arcanists which provide a really easy option to get great DPS. This is something ZOS has done. Prior to this I'm sure your team would have struggled to clear with older builds that require high APM. ZOS introducing easier options for less skilled players is a good thing. However it can be overdone. For example....170k AOE damage type of overdone...
3. You've contradicted yourself multiple times over and over and other people are picking up on it as well.
The AVG player will continue to not optimize and play overland and struggle with Vet Banished Cells because they are not interested in looking up or theory crafting a build that is half optimized. You could give them a 200% power spike and it wouldn't help them. Because they don't care. Which is fine, they can play the game how they want.
At this point I'm just gonna respond with I disagree for previously stated reasons.
1. yea it was yours and his. Some of mine as well in response, particularly around the bad leader attack on me, by you.
2. Still condescending towards my group which you seem to be hyper focused on and its bizarre. Rent free. Not sure why you are obsessed with assuming struggles of my group that dont exist in the manner you keep saying over and over again to be provocative. Baiting is also against these community rules so id appreciate if you would stop engaging with me in a way that violates civility rules. thanks.
3. I haven't contradicted myself at all. Provide an example and il respond. Others have their opinions and have cordially responded, unlike you. I have quite a few agree reacts on my OP as well. you underestimate the average player based on a bubble you cant get your mind out of. Its why my GH cleared with people you would have kicked and it had nothing to do with arcanists. Hence, my point. People that would have gotten kicked may not anymore. Thats great. Im glad this update is coming.
I disagree for previously stated reasons.0 -
TORCH15✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »sans-culottes wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Yes absolutely. Powercreep is a great thing. Just in smaller chunks 2-5% each update.AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.
Point 1: I'm all for variety, I'm just not for 50% powercreep.
Point 2: You can absolutely progress and clear all content in this game with 2 hours of run time a week. Each prog will take a group X amount of hours. Based on their skill level. So the end result is the same. It's just a matter of quickly you get there.
Question: What so bad about taking longer to complete a clear? Why not just enjoy the process? When you buy content, wouldn't you want it to last awhile?
Honestly man, I agree with you appreciate the cordial response.
Point 1. Yea, it might be a bit too much but id rather it be too much than too little at this point in the game.
Point 2. I agree here. But. Were 10? 11 years in? Say a PB twice a week takes a year. Once a week takes 2.5 years because I don't think it's a 1 to 1 rstion there as the not playing 6 days apart creates a variable. So that puts a PB clear in 2027 to 2028? That's simply not going to be feasible to commit to something that long for 99.999% of the player base. I don't think the answer though is, "well then you can't do it". Not saying that's your answer, but I think that's the idea now somewhat. I think this big buff speeds that time up but the content mechanics will still be a challenge no matter what BUT feasibility suddenly exists when it didn't exist before entirely.
To answer your question, its not terrible to take a long time. As I mentioned before about my group, we all enjoy each other. As you know, there's good days and bad days in the process but a progressive day after a bad day feels all the better. But, IRL changes for a lot of people. So for example, I have a few different people in GS vs GH. Schedules changed IRL or were expected to change. Taking a long isnt bad BUT, it does cause people to miss out. What if a mid tier group that is semi casual could do GS in 2 or 3 months instead of 6-8? To ME, that seems more reasonable. Most games don't last as long as ESO. So it's not out of the norm to have content achievable in less than 6 months. And of course a GS can be done quicker. Ive seen new GS's happen in 2 runs. There's a lot of variables though that prevent the average player, outside this forum bubble, from even TOUCHING the content we touch. They should be able to touch it easier. Part of why they can't is the community itself and restrictions we've placed. I'm all for ideas though. Perhaps making the time requirements 35 instead of 30 or maybe even 40. Perhaps making the game function better entirely lol?
The fundamental problem in your rational is that the 50% power spike will help you alot. It wont. Heres what will.
1.High APM (Actions per minute is literally your effectiveness...you not wanting to do this...says everything about the struggles of your group)
2. Good Skill Placement
3. Good Time on Target
4. High Raid Awareness
5. Giving people easier builds so they can do 1-4 easier.
The above is just about increasing skill. Doesn't even need to be done as a group. Struggling members could take 5 mins a day. Practice a parse while multi tasking with some other mechanic (sounds familiar...) They could take 5 mins and just practice a rotation while relearning to not stare at the skill bar and actually pay attention to the trial (raid awareness).
5 mins 2-3 days a week of actual meaningful practice to improve your skill as a player would save people Hours and Hours of progging. Only thing a 50% powercreep does is take away HM for skilled players. It now becomes "Vet".
This back and forth is pointless. Go ahead and get the last word.
HM won't go anywhere, Limit yourselves to just 2 arcanist.
What you meant to say, is it takes HM away from your prog. It makes HM a bit more accessible to people who either don't pve as much as you or casuals/newcomers who are wanting to upgrade to harder content.
Trifecta's are the hardest content in the game, and will remain to be there for now. Trifecta's aren't really going to get easier, mainly because trifecta's are based upon mechanics. While a build and high dps helps, there is other factors too.
Trifectas is probably the hardest content out of any game I ever played. Thats just my opinion though.
Thats his issue. He cant see outside his own bubble and realize there are mass amounts of players that this update will be exciting for.
@TORCH15, your messaging here pivots so frequently it’s difficult to track what principle you’re actually defending. One moment, you’re arguing that this power spike is about accessibility for those “outside the bubble” of endgame groups. The next, you’re holding your own group up as proof that progress is still possible under current constraints. And in another breath, you’re insisting this isn’t about your group at all. You want to use your experience as a credential, but then insist criticism of your claims is irrelevant because “it’s not about your group.” You can’t have it both ways.
You claim the update helps players who otherwise can’t touch this content due to availability, yet also say the mechanics will still be a challenge and that skill still matters. Then you undercut that point by saying 50% power creep will finally make things “feasible.” Which is it? Is the content already skill-accessible, or does it require a massive numerical boost just to reach the baseline?
The contradiction here is foundational: if mechanics are still the main barrier (as you say they are), and the 50% damage spike doesn’t trivialize them (as you hope), then accessibility doesn’t fundamentally change. If, however, the damage boost does trivialize key mechanics or bypass DPS checks, then it’s not simply “variety” being enabled but design being undermined.
The more uncomfortable reality is that this proposal doesn’t expand accessibility so much as it redefines content through brute force, not skill. A player or group still uninterested in engaging with mechanics—still unwilling to learn—won’t be magically “included” by this change. They’ll simply be rushed past design thresholds they never learned to cross.
Youve gotten caught up in the back and forth of my group discussion because the individual doing so is provocative intentionally therefore the discussion has gotten sideways too many times. I struggle to keep up myself at this point because talking briefly about my group in the OP has become hyper focused when that isnt the main point of being happy about this. I used my group as an example originally to describe why even mid tier groups will benefit from this change, and less than mid tier even more.
I absolutely can have it both ways. My group is limited based on time available of the players to play ESO entirely within it. Therefore, based on that experience, I can say that limited availability players will benefit from this change based on my experience of our progress. Though its successful under current constraints, this update will likely lessen the time required to play ESO to achieve certain things for players that time restrictions affect. Hence, its plausible to say that players that dont even attempt to get into end game because of this, may try and even have SOME success, therefore my notion about new players coming into end game that didnt exist before.
Lets use the Oaken Ring for an example. How many people couldnt even dream of a VAS2 clear before that mythic arrived? How many new names got silver and IR after? A new update brought feasibility where it didnt exist before for many, many people. That is fact.
So, if this update does 25% of what Oaken did for VAS2 for all of the current DLC HM's for the average players, that is a big win for ESO and the community. Does that make sense? Is that a clearer example?
@TORCH15, the issue here isn’t that people are misunderstanding you. It’s that your position shifts depending on the point you’re defending. You argue this power spike is necessary because time-restricted players like your group struggle to clear content. Then, when challenged, you present your group’s success as proof that current systems already allow for steady progress. You can’t hold up your experience as both a cautionary tale and a success story. It undercuts the credibility of your broader claims.
The Oakensoul comparison helps illustrate the core problem more clearly than you might realize. Yes, it enabled more players to complete certain content. But it did so by streamlining inputs and reducing complexity, not by encouraging deeper engagement or growth. Players didn’t improve their awareness, adaptability, or mechanics. They simply bypassed them. That kind of accessibility has a place, particularly for those with physical limitations. But when scaled across the entire design space, it risks flattening the game’s progression into a numbers race.
You say mechanics still matter. Yet you advocate a 50% damage increase precisely because, in your words, feasibility doesn’t exist without it. If mechanics remain the primary hurdle, then a power spike shouldn’t be necessary. If mechanics are no longer the hurdle, then we’re not talking about accessibility. We’re talking about bypass. That distinction matters.
The contradiction at the heart of your posts is this: either skill and awareness remain central to endgame success, or raw power becomes the new gatekeeper. You can’t meaningfully have both. Players who aren’t interested in improving—whether due to time, effort, or preference—won’t suddenly engage more deeply just because numbers go up. They’ll pass through content faster, but they won’t necessarily participate in it more fully.
Your intent may be to broaden access, but the method proposed risks eroding the design structures that give content meaning in the first place. Accessibility should enhance engagement, not replace it.
Saying i use my group as proof that the current systems work is a really big stretch of what I have said and I think you have misunderstood it. I said my group has had some success with time constraints but my experience has been that these updates will help accessibility to those similar or beneath our level. I fundamentally disagree with the idea that an XS or TD or HH is currently feasible with average skill players with time constraints not allowing the repetitions(that cant be had because of time constraints) to overcome the skill eventually. Because "eventually" is too long.
I agree the Oaken in VAS2 allowed for the bypassing of certain challenges. But, i think you underestimate the amount of players that simply want a title next to their name or skin on their toon while they play something else and dont care what strategy they use. I think you underestimate the number of players that quit the game because they cant meet requirements. Ive already addressed the argument of requirements of groups going up too.
Finally, its not bypassing mechanics. Its having better ways to handle them with more variety like adding a 5th support, perhaps. Example, GH. Lets say a group struggles in execute and the healers struggle with the heal check there. Is it bad to buff groups enough so that the option of adding a 3rd healer in a GH exists now for a group that couldnt get it? To me thats taking the new update and getting creative to find success for a group. Do you disagree with that example?0 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »1. I don't think any of my post's were included in that. I think it was yours & Dimes (could be wrong).
2. Yes, I'm sure this was possible with Arcanists which provide a really easy option to get great DPS. This is something ZOS has done. Prior to this I'm sure your team would have struggled to clear with older builds that require high APM. ZOS introducing easier options for less skilled players is a good thing. However it can be overdone. For example....170k AOE damage type of overdone...
3. You've contradicted yourself multiple times over and over and other people are picking up on it as well.
The AVG player will continue to not optimize and play overland and struggle with Vet Banished Cells because they are not interested in looking up or theory crafting a build that is half optimized. You could give them a 200% power spike and it wouldn't help them. Because they don't care. Which is fine, they can play the game how they want.
At this point I'm just gonna respond with I disagree for previously stated reasons.
1. yea it was yours and his. Some of mine as well in response, particularly around the bad leader attack on me, by you.
2. Still condescending towards my group which you seem to be hyper focused on and its bizarre. Rent free. Not sure why you are obsessed with assuming struggles of my group that dont exist in the manner you keep saying over and over again to be provocative. Baiting is also against these community rules so id appreciate if you would stop engaging with me in a way that violates civility rules. thanks.
3. I haven't contradicted myself at all. Provide an example and il respond. Others have their opinions and have cordially responded, unlike you. I have quite a few agree reacts on my OP as well. you underestimate the average player based on a bubble you cant get your mind out of. Its why my GH cleared with people you would have kicked and it had nothing to do with arcanists. Hence, my point. People that would have gotten kicked may not anymore. Thats great. Im glad this update is coming.
I disagree for previously stated reasons.
Thank you for responding cordially. Appreciate the feedback.0 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭@TORCH15, the issue here isn’t that people are misunderstanding you. It’s that your position shifts depending on the point you’re defending. You argue this power spike is necessary because time-restricted players like your group struggle to clear content. Then, when challenged, you present your group’s success as proof that current systems already allow for steady progress. You can’t hold up your experience as both a cautionary tale and a success story. It undercuts the credibility of your broader claims.
The Oakensoul comparison helps illustrate the core problem more clearly than you might realize. Yes, it enabled more players to complete certain content. But it did so by streamlining inputs and reducing complexity, not by encouraging deeper engagement or growth. Players didn’t improve their awareness, adaptability, or mechanics. They simply bypassed them. That kind of accessibility has a place, particularly for those with physical limitations. But when scaled across the entire design space, it risks flattening the game’s progression into a numbers race.
You say mechanics still matter. Yet you advocate a 50% damage increase precisely because, in your words, feasibility doesn’t exist without it. If mechanics remain the primary hurdle, then a power spike shouldn’t be necessary. If mechanics are no longer the hurdle, then we’re not talking about accessibility. We’re talking about bypass. That distinction matters.
The contradiction at the heart of your posts is this: either skill and awareness remain central to endgame success, or raw power becomes the new gatekeeper. You can’t meaningfully have both. Players who aren’t interested in improving—whether due to time, effort, or preference—won’t suddenly engage more deeply just because numbers go up. They’ll pass through content faster, but they won’t necessarily participate in it more fully.
Your intent may be to broaden access, but the method proposed risks eroding the design structures that give content meaning in the first place. Accessibility should enhance engagement, not replace it.[/quote]
Above is ment to quote @sans-culottes not working correctly for some reason?
This is extremely well articulated. Bravo Sir.Edited by AdmiralDigby on 18 April 2025 16:063 -
Twohothardware✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭xylena_lazarow wrote: »Exactly. Can't break what's already broken, can't kill what's already dead. Meanwhile, I don't think I've seen this much excitement and action on the PTS since before Summerset.
Exactly. The only reason people are talking about this next DLC is because of the subclassing. There's a number of people commenting negatively about it but there's plenty looking forward to it as well.
I just hope ZOS makes measured and minor adjustments and doesn't listen to a loud minority like they have with other releases. The class specific armor sets for example were ruined to the point of noone even caring about them after a few people on here lost their minds thinking the DK set was going to end the game.Edited by Twohothardware on 18 April 2025 16:071 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »1. I don't think any of my post's were included in that. I think it was yours & Dimes (could be wrong).
2. Yes, I'm sure this was possible with Arcanists which provide a really easy option to get great DPS. This is something ZOS has done. Prior to this I'm sure your team would have struggled to clear with older builds that require high APM. ZOS introducing easier options for less skilled players is a good thing. However it can be overdone. For example....170k AOE damage type of overdone...
3. You've contradicted yourself multiple times over and over and other people are picking up on it as well.
The AVG player will continue to not optimize and play overland and struggle with Vet Banished Cells because they are not interested in looking up or theory crafting a build that is half optimized. You could give them a 200% power spike and it wouldn't help them. Because they don't care. Which is fine, they can play the game how they want.
At this point I'm just gonna respond with I disagree for previously stated reasons.
1. yea it was yours and his. Some of mine as well in response, particularly around the bad leader attack on me, by you.
2. Still condescending towards my group which you seem to be hyper focused on and its bizarre. Rent free. Not sure why you are obsessed with assuming struggles of my group that dont exist in the manner you keep saying over and over again to be provocative. Baiting is also against these community rules so id appreciate if you would stop engaging with me in a way that violates civility rules. thanks.
3. I haven't contradicted myself at all. Provide an example and il respond. Others have their opinions and have cordially responded, unlike you. I have quite a few agree reacts on my OP as well. you underestimate the average player based on a bubble you cant get your mind out of. Its why my GH cleared with people you would have kicked and it had nothing to do with arcanists. Hence, my point. People that would have gotten kicked may not anymore. Thats great. Im glad this update is coming.
I disagree for previously stated reasons.
Thank you for responding cordially. Appreciate the feedback.
Glad I could help you.0 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
So, if this update does 25% of what Oaken did for VAS2 for all of the current DLC HM's for the average players, that is a big win for ESO and the community. Does that make sense? Is that a clearer example?
It won't, because DDs both gain power and fragility in this update. You lose the mitigation, healing, sustain passives by giving up your other skill lines in favour of dps skill lines.
This increase in power is nothing like oakensoul raising the floor.
Except in organized group content, those were not major concerns because you had healers and tanks doing that. Sure, losing the mit and healing stuff is a problem in solo, but people aren't talking about solo content.
Also "the sustain passives" are not all restricted to one line. I'll give an example of DK - the sustain passives are in Ardent Flame (combustion) and Earthen Heart (battle roar). Both of which are also getting nerfed preemptively. ZOS is expecting DKs to be forced to trade off one of their lines to get sustain back. DKs are also notorious for yo-yoing their resources because DK skills tend to be expensive and they're expected to ult to get resources back. As opposed to Arcanists - yes they have their sustain things in the two non-damage lines (and one got a buff), but Arcanists don't tend to have sustain issues since they spend most of the time just beaming, and if they set it up right they get cost reduction. That means that Arcanists have the freedom to subclass more power for very small drawbacks, but other classes are getting a major nerfhammer unless they subclass.3 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »1. I don't think any of my post's were included in that. I think it was yours & Dimes (could be wrong).
2. Yes, I'm sure this was possible with Arcanists which provide a really easy option to get great DPS. This is something ZOS has done. Prior to this I'm sure your team would have struggled to clear with older builds that require high APM. ZOS introducing easier options for less skilled players is a good thing. However it can be overdone. For example....170k AOE damage type of overdone...
3. You've contradicted yourself multiple times over and over and other people are picking up on it as well.
The AVG player will continue to not optimize and play overland and struggle with Vet Banished Cells because they are not interested in looking up or theory crafting a build that is half optimized. You could give them a 200% power spike and it wouldn't help them. Because they don't care. Which is fine, they can play the game how they want.
At this point I'm just gonna respond with I disagree for previously stated reasons.
1. yea it was yours and his. Some of mine as well in response, particularly around the bad leader attack on me, by you.
2. Still condescending towards my group which you seem to be hyper focused on and its bizarre. Rent free. Not sure why you are obsessed with assuming struggles of my group that dont exist in the manner you keep saying over and over again to be provocative. Baiting is also against these community rules so id appreciate if you would stop engaging with me in a way that violates civility rules. thanks.
3. I haven't contradicted myself at all. Provide an example and il respond. Others have their opinions and have cordially responded, unlike you. I have quite a few agree reacts on my OP as well. you underestimate the average player based on a bubble you cant get your mind out of. Its why my GH cleared with people you would have kicked and it had nothing to do with arcanists. Hence, my point. People that would have gotten kicked may not anymore. Thats great. Im glad this update is coming.
I disagree for previously stated reasons.
Thank you for responding cordially. Appreciate the feedback.
Glad I could help you.
Oh not me, the feedback help is for ZoS making these updates.0
This discussion has been closed.