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Subclassing and the Buffs will SAVE this game, not "Break" it
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TORCH15✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.
My cro/plar/dk/nb" was a simple example.
In this update, id tell people to tell me what theyd have fun with and then try to optimize it into a group and prog that way.
One of your biggest problems is thinking we all live and play in a bubble. As if we don't do more to get new players titles than anyone else in the game. Most of us spend countless hours giving advice and running with groups for titles we already have to get other players those titles. Or spending half a mil gold to gift a newer tank a PA ice staff. All those players love the sense of accomplishment from beating something hard in my experience.
And no, no one can walk in and get XS in 8 hours. I'd also argue thats 95% on supports and 5% on the level of dps in the game. If u had 4 supports who knew the trial you could absolutely get XS in 2 hours a week after a few weeks. No amount of dps or tank buffs will teach supports to position bahsei and handle 3 aboms at once and paint the room with the abom aoes, this is learned.
And even with all the help we give other players, why should every single piece of hard mode content be able to be done by every single player? If I am too slow in my racing game, should my car become 50% faster? If I can't hit in mlb the show, should my bat become 50% bigger? If i cant beat dark souls, should the bosses get half health and do half damage? If I can't beat subnautica, should half the water in the game be removed? Hard mode challenges should be for people who want to excel at the game. They're not called easy mode challenges lol. It's like that Ben Shapiro meme. "Where does it say boys scouts have to be boys?" "It's literally in the name."
And another point. If you want the challenge so bad, stay playing the way you are? Then brag about it after. Put it on YouTube. A lot of games you get to choose difficulty modes for a reason. You get to do all content at your skill level. This is similar. Play pure classes in your group and you'll still feel that challenge. That solves the issue I think for people wanting the challenge for themselves?
Because if not, it must be about others' experience, which leads me back to my original notion of it being a bit more cynical
"Stip playing the way you are" is also a cope. The game is finely tuned for the power level in the game. And it allows for flexibility. Our group in particular has been *** on for using too many barriers and defensive ults instead of going all out damage, whoch proves there's already leeway in the game
Yea...I don't think that's why your group was in a negative light broski...
I think it's great yall found a way to be able to be a little different though. That's the beauty of this update. Every group will have so much more variety that is capable.0 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.2 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.
My cro/plar/dk/nb" was a simple example.
In this update, id tell people to tell me what theyd have fun with and then try to optimize it into a group and prog that way.
One of your biggest problems is thinking we all live and play in a bubble. As if we don't do more to get new players titles than anyone else in the game. Most of us spend countless hours giving advice and running with groups for titles we already have to get other players those titles. Or spending half a mil gold to gift a newer tank a PA ice staff. All those players love the sense of accomplishment from beating something hard in my experience.
And no, no one can walk in and get XS in 8 hours. I'd also argue thats 95% on supports and 5% on the level of dps in the game. If u had 4 supports who knew the trial you could absolutely get XS in 2 hours a week after a few weeks. No amount of dps or tank buffs will teach supports to position bahsei and handle 3 aboms at once and paint the room with the abom aoes, this is learned.
And even with all the help we give other players, why should every single piece of hard mode content be able to be done by every single player? If I am too slow in my racing game, should my car become 50% faster? If I can't hit in mlb the show, should my bat become 50% bigger? If i cant beat dark souls, should the bosses get half health and do half damage? If I can't beat subnautica, should half the water in the game be removed? Hard mode challenges should be for people who want to excel at the game. They're not called easy mode challenges lol. It's like that Ben Shapiro meme. "Where does it say boys scouts have to be boys?" "It's literally in the name."
And another point. If you want the challenge so bad, stay playing the way you are? Then brag about it after. Put it on YouTube. A lot of games you get to choose difficulty modes for a reason. You get to do all content at your skill level. This is similar. Play pure classes in your group and you'll still feel that challenge. That solves the issue I think for people wanting the challenge for themselves?
Because if not, it must be about others' experience, which leads me back to my original notion of it being a bit more cynical
"Stip playing the way you are" is also a cope. The game is finely tuned for the power level in the game. And it allows for flexibility. Our group in particular has been *** on for using too many barriers and defensive ults instead of going all out damage, whoch proves there's already leeway in the game
While other groups have all arcs. We went plars just to be different. Could absolutely make other things work. The game is plenty flexibile if you take the time to learn the fundementals.
High GCDs, Good Skill Placement, High Time on Target.1 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.7 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Hey at least someone finally said it.
"I don't like others having an easier time than I had in a video game".
The 1st honest answer of you all. Respect.0 -
DimeN3Pennys✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.
My cro/plar/dk/nb" was a simple example.
In this update, id tell people to tell me what theyd have fun with and then try to optimize it into a group and prog that way.
One of your biggest problems is thinking we all live and play in a bubble. As if we don't do more to get new players titles than anyone else in the game. Most of us spend countless hours giving advice and running with groups for titles we already have to get other players those titles. Or spending half a mil gold to gift a newer tank a PA ice staff. All those players love the sense of accomplishment from beating something hard in my experience.
And no, no one can walk in and get XS in 8 hours. I'd also argue thats 95% on supports and 5% on the level of dps in the game. If u had 4 supports who knew the trial you could absolutely get XS in 2 hours a week after a few weeks. No amount of dps or tank buffs will teach supports to position bahsei and handle 3 aboms at once and paint the room with the abom aoes, this is learned.
And even with all the help we give other players, why should every single piece of hard mode content be able to be done by every single player? If I am too slow in my racing game, should my car become 50% faster? If I can't hit in mlb the show, should my bat become 50% bigger? If i cant beat dark souls, should the bosses get half health and do half damage? If I can't beat subnautica, should half the water in the game be removed? Hard mode challenges should be for people who want to excel at the game. They're not called easy mode challenges lol. It's like that Ben Shapiro meme. "Where does it say boys scouts have to be boys?" "It's literally in the name."
And another point. If you want the challenge so bad, stay playing the way you are? Then brag about it after. Put it on YouTube. A lot of games you get to choose difficulty modes for a reason. You get to do all content at your skill level. This is similar. Play pure classes in your group and you'll still feel that challenge. That solves the issue I think for people wanting the challenge for themselves?
Because if not, it must be about others' experience, which leads me back to my original notion of it being a bit more cynical
Lol you choose the difficulty in this game too. It's called vet vs hard mode. That allows you to do all the content at your skill level as you so eloquently put it
I don't brag to anyone, I put stuff on YouTube so I can have fun tracking my journey. That's why everything from day one shitshows to the end of the prog is on my channel, and not just clears
Again, continue playing as pure classes then. Does that not solve the issue for you and your group's concern? It will be just as rewarding as before yes? Or do you have issue with other's experience?
[snip]
[snip]
I've said, I think a certain level of power creep is a good thing, I am ok with raising the floor somewhat just don't raise the ceiling 50%, I'm ok with more accessibility again just don't raise the ceiling so much.
Yes I think staying where I am is fine while giving some more leeway at the middle end solves my frustration. If we ignore they have already been doing that for months with arcs and velothi and other things just making the game easier and easier. If it's still too hard then they can keep tweaking it but it doesn't have to be 50% at a time.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 18 April 2025 13:212 -
TORCH15✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.
My cro/plar/dk/nb" was a simple example.
In this update, id tell people to tell me what theyd have fun with and then try to optimize it into a group and prog that way.
One of your biggest problems is thinking we all live and play in a bubble. As if we don't do more to get new players titles than anyone else in the game. Most of us spend countless hours giving advice and running with groups for titles we already have to get other players those titles. Or spending half a mil gold to gift a newer tank a PA ice staff. All those players love the sense of accomplishment from beating something hard in my experience.
And no, no one can walk in and get XS in 8 hours. I'd also argue thats 95% on supports and 5% on the level of dps in the game. If u had 4 supports who knew the trial you could absolutely get XS in 2 hours a week after a few weeks. No amount of dps or tank buffs will teach supports to position bahsei and handle 3 aboms at once and paint the room with the abom aoes, this is learned.
And even with all the help we give other players, why should every single piece of hard mode content be able to be done by every single player? If I am too slow in my racing game, should my car become 50% faster? If I can't hit in mlb the show, should my bat become 50% bigger? If i cant beat dark souls, should the bosses get half health and do half damage? If I can't beat subnautica, should half the water in the game be removed? Hard mode challenges should be for people who want to excel at the game. They're not called easy mode challenges lol. It's like that Ben Shapiro meme. "Where does it say boys scouts have to be boys?" "It's literally in the name."
And another point. If you want the challenge so bad, stay playing the way you are? Then brag about it after. Put it on YouTube. A lot of games you get to choose difficulty modes for a reason. You get to do all content at your skill level. This is similar. Play pure classes in your group and you'll still feel that challenge. That solves the issue I think for people wanting the challenge for themselves?
Because if not, it must be about others' experience, which leads me back to my original notion of it being a bit more cynical
Lol you choose the difficulty in this game too. It's called vet vs hard mode. That allows you to do all the content at your skill level as you so eloquently put it
I don't brag to anyone, I put stuff on YouTube so I can have fun tracking my journey. That's why everything from day one shitshows to the end of the prog is on my channel, and not just clears
Again, continue playing as pure classes then. Does that not solve the issue for you and your group's concern? It will be just as rewarding as before yes? Or do you have issue with other's experience?
[snip]
[snip]
I've said, I think a certain level of power creep is a good thing, I am ok with raising the floor somewhat just don't raise the ceiling 50%, I'm ok with more accessibility again just don't raise the ceiling so much.
Yes I think staying where I am is fine while giving some more leeway at the middle end solves my frustration. If we ignore they have already been doing that for months with arcs and velothi and other things just making the game easier and easier. If it's still too hard then they can keep tweaking it but it doesn't have to be 50% at a time.
Meh, ill take the 50% all day. I'd rather play with people currently not capable that are friendly and I like vs kicking people for someone I don't know and doesn't talk for a title. If it solves that problem then I like the 50%.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 18 April 2025 13:220 -
DimeN3Pennys✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »DimeN3Pennys wrote: »I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.
My cro/plar/dk/nb" was a simple example.
In this update, id tell people to tell me what theyd have fun with and then try to optimize it into a group and prog that way.
One of your biggest problems is thinking we all live and play in a bubble. As if we don't do more to get new players titles than anyone else in the game. Most of us spend countless hours giving advice and running with groups for titles we already have to get other players those titles. Or spending half a mil gold to gift a newer tank a PA ice staff. All those players love the sense of accomplishment from beating something hard in my experience.
And no, no one can walk in and get XS in 8 hours. I'd also argue thats 95% on supports and 5% on the level of dps in the game. If u had 4 supports who knew the trial you could absolutely get XS in 2 hours a week after a few weeks. No amount of dps or tank buffs will teach supports to position bahsei and handle 3 aboms at once and paint the room with the abom aoes, this is learned.
And even with all the help we give other players, why should every single piece of hard mode content be able to be done by every single player? If I am too slow in my racing game, should my car become 50% faster? If I can't hit in mlb the show, should my bat become 50% bigger? If i cant beat dark souls, should the bosses get half health and do half damage? If I can't beat subnautica, should half the water in the game be removed? Hard mode challenges should be for people who want to excel at the game. They're not called easy mode challenges lol. It's like that Ben Shapiro meme. "Where does it say boys scouts have to be boys?" "It's literally in the name."
And another point. If you want the challenge so bad, stay playing the way you are? Then brag about it after. Put it on YouTube. A lot of games you get to choose difficulty modes for a reason. You get to do all content at your skill level. This is similar. Play pure classes in your group and you'll still feel that challenge. That solves the issue I think for people wanting the challenge for themselves?
Because if not, it must be about others' experience, which leads me back to my original notion of it being a bit more cynical
Lol you choose the difficulty in this game too. It's called vet vs hard mode. That allows you to do all the content at your skill level as you so eloquently put it
I don't brag to anyone, I put stuff on YouTube so I can have fun tracking my journey. That's why everything from day one shitshows to the end of the prog is on my channel, and not just clears
Again, continue playing as pure classes then. Does that not solve the issue for you and your group's concern? It will be just as rewarding as before yes? Or do you have issue with other's experience?
[snip]
[snip]
I've said, I think a certain level of power creep is a good thing, I am ok with raising the floor somewhat just don't raise the ceiling 50%, I'm ok with more accessibility again just don't raise the ceiling so much.
Yes I think staying where I am is fine while giving some more leeway at the middle end solves my frustration. If we ignore they have already been doing that for months with arcs and velothi and other things just making the game easier and easier. If it's still too hard then they can keep tweaking it but it doesn't have to be 50% at a time.
Meh, ill take the 50% all day. I'd rather play with people currently not capable that are friendly and I like vs kicking people for someone I don't know and doesn't talk for a title. If it solves that problem then I like the 50%.
Again that feels like a contradiction. Should the buffs be for people who are stuck between vet and hard mode or should every group of friends that doesn't understand the game be able to complete "hard mode" content. This is again a case where you choose the difficulty for your skill level. If people choose to push themselves to a higher skill level but still find it too hard, I sympathize with those players and think they could use a little extra push. If u want to drink with your buddies and mess around I don't believe that's what hard modes are for. Difference of opinion on that front I guess.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 18 April 2025 13:221 -
necro_the_crafter✭✭✭✭✭I have several questions.
1. Question:
NecroArcBlade seems op right, what would you nerf?
Beam? Incap? GLS? Grim Focus? Tides King Gaze?
All of the above? None of the above?
2. Question:
What does it mean to choose a class at a character creation screen?
Class script and class sets(considering you wont swap out skilline it interacts with)?
Im all pro this change, with few adjustmens:
Make at least one class skill line for each class that cannot be swapped as well as burrowed by other classes.
For example, we can keep beam as arcanist unique skill and balance it inside arcanist class for example, without concern for 6 more classes also breaking it. Or we can buff base of underperfoming class without buffing overperfoming ones.
Or remove classes as a whole. Make players acquire skill modules through quest and achivements, or make class "guilds" so you will earn this skillines similar to fighter/mage/db/tg/psijic order skillines, through interaction with a guild. make class sets just sets, and all of class scripts acessible by everyone.1 -
TORCH15✭✭✭necro_the_crafter wrote: »I have several questions.
1. Question:
NecroArcBlade seems op right, what would you nerf?
Beam? Incap? GLS? Grim Focus? Tides King Gaze?
All of the above? None of the above?
2. Question:
What does it mean to choose a class at a character creation screen?
Class script and class sets(considering you wont swap out skilline it interacts with)?
Im all pro this change, with few adjustmens:
Make at least one class skill line for each class that cannot be swapped as well as burrowed by other classes.
For example, we can keep beam as arcanist unique skill and balance it inside arcanist class for example, without concern for 6 more classes also breaking it. Or we can buff base of underperfoming class without buffing overperfoming ones.
Or remove classes as a whole. Make players acquire skill modules through quest and achivements, or make class "guilds" so you will earn this skillines similar to fighter/mage/db/tg/psijic order skillines, through interaction with a guild. make class sets just sets, and all of class scripts acessible by everyone.
1. I wouldn't nerf anything.
2. I still think class creation will be fine and enjoyable.0 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Hey at least someone finally said it.
"I don't like others having an easier time than I had in a video game".
The 1st honest answer of you all. Respect.
You're misquoting me. I said "ut I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it."
Nowhere do I say that I don't like them having an easier time. I just said they need to actually put in a little effort. A tiny smidge.3 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Hey at least someone finally said it.
"I don't like others having an easier time than I had in a video game".
The 1st honest answer of you all. Respect.
You're misquoting me. I said "ut I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it."
Nowhere do I say that I don't like them having an easier time. I just said they need to actually put in a little effort. A tiny smidge.
They still will. Even with a 50% dps spike, content will still require a lot of effort. It just brings in general feasibility where it didn't exist before with many.0 -
FoJul✭✭✭✭I just read through a whole page of back n forth, and didn't really get any info out of it.
The main topic here is that subclassing will save the game's health. Rather than break it, which seems to have a 50/50 take on it.
My biggest problem with the game, is the community itself. PvP and PvE, can get so uptight and toxic, as expressed in this threads page 3/4.
PvP:
If everyone wasn't so stuck up and afraid to die, we wouldn't be in a tank meta abusing proc sets to do damage for them.
PvE:
Veteran content and HardMode content, has prog teams that want you to play this specific setup. That ruins the experience by itself. I understand that certain things are needed, but now with subclassing, maybe release the reigns a little bit. Not everyone wants to spam beam all day.
In conclusion, I think subclassing gives a wide variety of theorycrafting and optimization to a level we haven't seen before. That counts as fresh new content right? Right?
p.s Balancing will probably be a nightmare without making subclass skill lines weaker than their original classes skill lines.0 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
How do you gain skill? Not practice.... Good practice. If you just practice the same things. You'll get the same results. Here's a pill you need to swallow.
DPSing in content in this game is all about maxing out GCD's, Time on Target and Skill Placement. It's not using a specific set & or a specific skill. Those are minor things.
This exact post illustrates the entire problem. You don't optimize your groups. You don't organize what sets, dots they use. The worst thing is you don't kick people if they are not ready to perform at that level or can't make the schedule runs frequently. These are all traits of a bad Prog Leader. It's shoddy leadership holding your group back.
You can absolutely get TD running 7 hours a month. It just might take a little bit longer. Enjoy the process. Instead of looking for a quick easy fix. Watch POVs. Start providing feedback. Follow up on the feedback. If they can't perform after you've given them alot of chances. Replace them with someone that can. You'll say thats mean. However I think it's mean holding 7 capable people back instead of being a leader.
Anyone actually reading this thread. You can do 4 button Arc setups on live right now and hit 100k AOE dps. That's more than enough for any HM in the game. If your parsing for 90-100k+ on dummy. You have enough burn for HM's. If you can't complete the HM's. The problem is the players. Asking for +50% powercreep from ZOS so you don't have to play the mechs is silly.
This is a great post.
Even skipping most mechanics, in groups doing truly obscene (current) levels of damage - probably still higher than casuals and less optimized groups will be even with subclassing next patch, those one shots still exist. I lost swash the other night because the tank (who is an incredible player, one of the best eso tanks in the world) forgot to hold block at 0.6% on Taleria (he thought it was in the bag already).
I think it's great that higher dps/power creep makes content more accessible. But I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it.
Hey at least someone finally said it.
"I don't like others having an easier time than I had in a video game".
The 1st honest answer of you all. Respect.
You're misquoting me. I said "ut I don't like the attitude of people expecting hard content to be handed to them as a participation prize. You still need to work for it, even if the way you work for it is different and not as difficult as the way I had to work for it."
Nowhere do I say that I don't like them having an easier time. I just said they need to actually put in a little effort. A tiny smidge.
They still will. Even with a 50% dps spike, content will still require a lot of effort. It just brings in general feasibility where it didn't exist before with many.
All the DPS in the world can't make up for lack of raid awareness.2 -
alpha_synuclein✭✭✭✭✭Honestly, this whole notion that throwing more damage into the game will fix all the issues in group content is misleading at best.
We are doing 3 times more damage now than when first dlc trials were introduced, but do we see the flood of casually oriented leaders doing DmDs, TTTs or IR's? Sure, there are some, but if simply adding more damage would really have the power to add more leads with leeway mindset and variety in groups, we would be seeing this already.
Also, the notion that adding more damage will allow to bring more supports is quite the opposite to what we're seeing now. Atm the fastest the burns, the less need for supports. Groups with high damage often go with solo heal/tank, instead of adding extra. So if anything, this will reduce the space for supports, not increase it.4 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.3 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭Zyaneth_Bal wrote: »
Content is as accessible as it can be on live already. Players that don’t do certain content or don’t reach certain dps numbers do not because they do not want to. It’s that simple. And no amount of free power will change that.l because it’s not the reason to begin with.I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
This 100%. It's a knowledge and skill problem.
I know PB groups that got it running 2 days a week. You could get it running it once a week. Would just take a little longer.
The TS, as someone who accuses others of caring about titles more then people. Why not savour the difficulty. Slowly work on improving. Enjoy spending time and laughing with online friends.
The setups I used for PB were parsing for 90-100k. This was before Arc. We got a 27:30 PB.
You can hear me saying in some POVs of my group members during our PB run. "We'll get it when we get it". This is after a year of progging it.
Some people would enable a cheat code of they could. Beat all content within a week. Get bored. Then leave.4 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭When game developers are implementing the "insane" or "brutal" or "Insanity" difficulty modes of games. They don't balance that mode with the idea. " how do we make this easy enough everyone can do it".
That's what the lower difficulties are for.....this isn't rocket science.6 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.Edited by TORCH15 on 18 April 2025 11:550 -
TORCH15✭✭✭alpha_synuclein wrote: »Honestly, this whole notion that throwing more damage into the game will fix all the issues in group content is misleading at best.
We are doing 3 times more damage now than when first dlc trials were introduced, but do we see the flood of casually oriented leaders doing DmDs, TTTs or IR's? Sure, there are some, but if simply adding more damage would really have the power to add more leads with leeway mindset and variety in groups, we would be seeing this already.
Also, the notion that adding more damage will allow to bring more supports is quite the opposite to what we're seeing now. Atm the fastest the burns, the less need for supports. Groups with high damage often go with solo heal/tank, instead of adding extra. So if anything, this will reduce the space for supports, not increase it.
That is using tunnel vision at its finest. That is looking within a bubble of seeing a small number of groups capable of using less supports and ignoring the vast majority of other players. Thats the issue. This update isn't geared towards the 400 players at the top of the PC logs that youre using as an example. It's geared towards the people you've never seen1 -
alpha_synuclein✭✭✭✭✭alpha_synuclein wrote: »Honestly, this whole notion that throwing more damage into the game will fix all the issues in group content is misleading at best.
We are doing 3 times more damage now than when first dlc trials were introduced, but do we see the flood of casually oriented leaders doing DmDs, TTTs or IR's? Sure, there are some, but if simply adding more damage would really have the power to add more leads with leeway mindset and variety in groups, we would be seeing this already.
Also, the notion that adding more damage will allow to bring more supports is quite the opposite to what we're seeing now. Atm the fastest the burns, the less need for supports. Groups with high damage often go with solo heal/tank, instead of adding extra. So if anything, this will reduce the space for supports, not increase it.
That is using tunnel vision at its finest. That is looking within a bubble of seeing a small number of groups capable of using less supports and ignoring the vast majority of other players. Thats the issue. This update isn't geared towards the 400 players at the top of the PC logs that youre using as an example. It's geared towards the people you've never seen
That is reading without understanding at it's finest
I am not saying that noone will ever do that. I am saying that we already have enough power that even non-sweaty groups could do that in earlier trials. Yet we do not see it happening. At least not on PC. 4 -
ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.
The Elder Scrolls Online Team1 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.2 -
necro_the_crafter✭✭✭✭✭
1. I wouldn't nerf anything.
2. I still think class creation will be fine and enjoyable.
1. Alright, wont comment here.
2. How about we add a fun little slot machine that you have to spin before creating a character? You wont loose or win anything, and its pretty much doesnt matter what combinations you get, you just spin it tree times and than you see "congratulation" screen, after wich you start with you character. Just a meanigless bit with funny music and flashing lights. Would that also be fun and enjoyable, altho it will have zero meaning or impact on your game experience overall?1 -
Rungar✭✭✭✭✭
✭it should be obvious that the real problem is not the subclassing but the nature of the content itself. Over reliance on extreme dps and move now or die mechanics to procede is why these problems exist in the first place. This and other games would be more popular if they realized this isnt really a good formula and there are other ways to do things.
Old Rungar always gives what's needed.
Current ideas for ESO improvement
Rungar's Mystical Emporium of Ideas junkyard0 -
Ph1p✭✭✭✭✭
✭alpha_synuclein wrote: »Honestly, this whole notion that throwing more damage into the game will fix all the issues in group content is misleading at best.
We are doing 3 times more damage now than when first dlc trials were introduced, but do we see the flood of casually oriented leaders doing DmDs, TTTs or IR's? Sure, there are some, but if simply adding more damage would really have the power to add more leads with leeway mindset and variety in groups, we would be seeing this already.
Also, the notion that adding more damage will allow to bring more supports is quite the opposite to what we're seeing now. Atm the fastest the burns, the less need for supports. Groups with high damage often go with solo heal/tank, instead of adding extra. So if anything, this will reduce the space for supports, not increase it.
Fully agree on the number of supports. Group compositions are determined by trial design and increasing group damage actually drives towards fewer supports not more. Cloudrest is the perfect example of this: The mechanics indicate up to 3 tanks, a group healer, plus a kite healer. That's why many groups only have 7 DDs. But give everyone more damage and the group will think: Wait, the Z'Maja tank can hold the mini as well, since it dies so quickly anyway.
If we want different group compositions, let ZOS design a new trial with 3 simultaneous bosses that enrage in each other's presence. Split a fight into 3 locations that each require dedicated healing. Or ramp up enemy damage such that having 3 healers is advantageous. Increasing damage isn't the solution here.
And let's not forget that the whole subclassing discussion tends to center on DDs, because it's so easy to measure DPS. But tanks and healers are likely to be more effective as well.4 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭The essence of this thread is akin to me making this argument:
"Overland content is too easy for me. I want to make it as hard as DLC HM's. That way I can enjoy it. I'm going to force this difficulty level upon everyone to achieve this".
The above wouldn't be fair to those that don't want to play at that difficulty. The correct way to have it setup is to let players choose a difficulty (which they really need to do for overland). However Trials already have this in place. Normal - Vet - Hard Mode.
Edit: 50% powercreep will trivialize the HM's in this game. While the mid tier groups will find the same mechanic and support choke points. Meaning very few additional people clear the hard content. The people who are actually clearing it, now fly threw it super easy taking away the challenge.Edited by AdmiralDigby on 18 April 2025 13:161 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭necro_the_crafter wrote: »
1. I wouldn't nerf anything.
2. I still think class creation will be fine and enjoyable.
1. Alright, wont comment here.
2. How about we add a fun little slot machine that you have to spin before creating a character? You wont loose or win anything, and its pretty much doesnt matter what combinations you get, you just spin it tree times and than you see "congratulation" screen, after wich you start with you character. Just a meanigless bit with funny music and flashing lights. Would that also be fun and enjoyable, altho it will have zero meaning or impact on your game experience overall?
When Warcraft 3 came out. I had a friend who found the cheat codes to make him one shot everything and just fly through the campaign. Meanwhile I played normally and took much longer.
He beat the game in 2 days then came over to my house complaining he was bored and had nothing to do. While I had about of month enjoyment out of it.
Make no mistake, alot of players would equip a mythic that would do the same thing. Clear all content. Get bored and leave. One of the great tragedies of life is people chase outcomes and not the process. The reward is the challenge.Edited by AdmiralDigby on 18 April 2025 13:202 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »AdmiralDigby wrote: »tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.
That couldnt be further form the truth. Our group is very optimized.
Then if what your saying it true (I'm skeptical but nontheless). The problem is the players are not having high APM (actions per min) & poor skill placement and time on target.
You can't be doing everything right. If you were. Your progs wouldn't be failing.
I missed this comment so il respond to it as an exception to my last response to you. Our progs aren't failing at all. Not sure where you got that info. If it was the kid that got banned and went back to ur group then youre being misinformed by an uninformed and irrational individual.
APM.. thats the point with this update. Thats too deep lol. This update will take care of that.
Our progs aren't failing but ZOS please give us 50-70% more burn so we can finally finish our progs.
You contradict yourself constantly because you will point the finger everywheres but at yourself and your group members.
I never said anything about a current prog failing. In fact, i told you the opposite but you dont listen. I said this buff gives feasibility to thousands of people who didn't have it before. Its really not even about my group. It's about all the people that can't even touch any of it to begin with.
I've used my group as an example to try and make it understood that I'm knowledgeable about what I'm even talking about, you're the one who is accusing it and me of being bad based on a kid that got banned, your own bias based on a past, and elitist mentality. I've said zero details about my group. Stop attacking me and it personally and flaming my post. It's against community rules. Thanks.
If you'd like to converse elsewhere where it's not in violation of rules, feel free to reach out.
The OP is you saying why a 50% power creep is needed. Then use your group as an example (citing low run hours as the cause...which I'm skeptical about).
I'm not violating any rules by pointing out contradictions you are making.
Don't chase the title. Enjoy the process. Enjoy the $ value of content being challenging and lasting a long time. Enjoy the time spent with your group.
Challenge is the reward. Not the title. Again to drive this home. When developers are balancing the hardest difficulty mode of a game. They should not be thinking "how do I make this easy enough all or most can do it". Thats silly. Thats what the lower difficulty levels are for.
Play to a difficulty level you enjoy. If your not enjoying HMs and Trifectas. Then don't prog them. Work on improving first. Which ultimately is the real issue. People do the same things and expect different outcomes. I know from personal experience. This is where you fall into.
You can be skeptical all day long Admiral. We run once a week. Every other is for 2 hours and 1.5 hours. We did GH in about 3.5 months. GS is probably 6 months of 1 day a week and were at the end now. My group is fine but I am excited to bring more variety into it after this update. Low run hours is a hindrance for sure and this update will definitely speed it up. 1 day a week is rough, mainly because you have 6 days in between not running at all. Then if you cancel for a day because availability? Oof that one is rough when you come back after not running for 2 weeks. There's a lot of people out there that want to compete but can't because of that. Do I want them to have a free ride? No. Do I think this buff will give some feasibility to those hindered by availability but are capable? Absolutely.
What you don't have personal experience in, is leading a guild and seeing the absolute vast numbers of players come through as i have. As i mentioned previously, over 2k touched it. There's a massive amount of players out there that can't touch the restrictions prog groups put in place. Mine included. Its not about personally wanting a buff for my group. Youre diving into my group too much which lead to moderation here now for rule stuff as I warned. The reasoning for my group as an example is to put an understanding that I've got experience in this end game community enough to make a what I think is a good judgement of this update and it's positive effects on those thousands that cant get past our restrictions currently, which leads to game abandonment. My post literally got shared on different platforms at this point by others where there's more agreement there outside this bubble of ESO diehards. Because thousands at least want a chance they can't get at all without sharing tests they can't pass. The community gatekeeps via its own rules. This buff will hopefully break that up and bring new faces around.0
This discussion has been closed.