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Subclassing and the Buffs will SAVE this game, not "Break" it
TORCH15
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I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
Edited by ZOS_Icy on 19 April 2025 12:22 Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
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Renato90085✭✭✭✭✭for me , I am glad this subclass for my most friends can make a toon they want and I have some idea in my tank/healer toon too
but I think 90% player just worry Zos ability to balance 21 skill line ,me too ,if 2 beam arc is real next meta and I can’t use original nb dd did sbs because nb skill too good in arc got nerfed ,I think I will leave like my friends
I alway looking for gf try help pug do trial or dungeon ,I know your mean ,there have many ppl can’t/no time doing this ,but i just can’t believe zos can did
And what is TLDR, sorry English not my main Language0 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Overall I have mixed feelings about subclassing. It will to some extent breath new life into the game, and I can see where some (myself included) will be able to dust off my old long forgotten main and do content with him again because of subclassing. While I would rather Nightblade was given tools in their class skills to be as good for dungeons and trials as an Arcanist, I can now at least substitute in skill lines that will give me the skills that will close the gaps in areas where Nightblade is inefficient and do content on my Nightblade, even though technically can I still call it a Nightblade?
Where I am skeptical is with the ZOS Developers ability to keep things in pretty good balance without destroying everything we love about the game’s combat system and driving away large amounts of players. My favorite patches are where they primarily left combat alone and just introduced new content, and my least favorite have been ones with sweeping changes like the stinker that update 35 was. I also have a negative reaction toward 1.6 (introduction of champion points), the Vvardenfell changes, and the Murkmire changes. All of these patches had wide sweeping combat changes that made the game’s combat less fun IMO, and all included the shedding of players that liked doing end game content with. So while this update may bring in some fun things we like, the next update will likely be wide sweeping changes that will make combat less fun by “fixing” the “bad” things caused by this patch.Edited by kojou on 17 April 2025 18:26Playing since beta...4 -
TORCH15✭✭✭Renato90085 wrote: »for me , I am glad this subclass for my most friends can make a toon they want and I have some idea in my tank/healer toon too
but I think 90% player just worry Zos ability to balance 21 skill line ,me too ,if 2 beam arc is real next meta and I can’t use original nb dd did sbs because nb skill too good in arc got nerfed ,I think I will leave like my friends
I alway looking for gf try help pug do trial or dungeon ,I know your mean ,there have many ppl can’t/no time doing this ,but i just can’t believe zos can did
And what is TLDR, sorry English not my main Language
TLDR = "Too Long Didnt Read" lol
I disagree that 90% of players are worried about this. I think its the opposite when you talk to people outside the end game community. People that currently struggle in content because they dont have the time to play see an easier way to shorten the commitment requirement by raising the floor and are excited about it. From the feedback I have seen in THOSE communities, its been excitement. Everyone is hyper focused on the arc beam. But there are other buffs out there. There are other combinations that are going to bring numbers up much higher than before on a number of different combos.
So say currently, a prog group requires 120k dps to get into a VRGHM. That requirement is there because the content is extremely difficult. Those groups might now require the 170k. Ok, but before 120k was good and the content difficulty is unchanged. So now, a bunch of non meta people with a main DK and now a cro line added can now hit that original 120k when they only hit 100k before and be good enough to have a shot at VRGHM without the meta. The floor raises in a ton of different combos. Its not just about the arc meta. The arc meta will always exist because of cleave and ease of use. And further, arc meta is still ok. That power bump still gives players that dont have the time the opportunity to compete in pve content they couldnt before because of the big buff. Leaving the game because something is "too strong" makes no sense imo.
If the argument is now, "all groups will require something i dont want to play". I make the argument that more groups will now exist because of subclassing that didnt exist before and those new groups wont care about requiring the meta. You may be too use to end game groups being too particular. This buff across the board with subclassing opens up opportunity for more people to be involved including more leads with newer ideas of optimization and less restrictions than the current end game gatekeeping community.4 -
TORCH15✭✭✭Overall I have mixed feelings about subclassing. It will to some extent breath new life into the game, and I can see where some (myself included) will be able to dust off my old long forgotten main and do content with him again because of subclassing. While I would rather Nightblade was given tools in their class skills to be as good for dungeons and trials as an Arcanist, I can now at least substitute in skill lines that will give me the skills that will close the gaps in areas where Nightblade is inefficient and do content on my Nightblade, even though technically can I still call it a Nightblade?
Where I am skeptical is with the ZOS Developers ability to keep things in pretty good balance without destroying everything we love about the game’s combat system and driving away large amounts of players. My favorite patches are where they primarily left combat alone and just introduced new content, and my least favorite have been ones with sweeping changes like the stinker that update 35 was. I also have a negative reaction toward 1.6 (introduction of champion points), the Vvardenfell changes, and the Murkmire changes. All of these patches had wide sweeping combat changes that made the game’s combat less fun IMO, and all included the shedding of players that liked doing end game content with. So while this update may bring in some fun things we like, the next update will likely be wide sweeping changes that will make combat less fun by “fixing” the “bad” things caused by this patch.
I agree I worry about them doing all this and buffing everyone and then turning around and nerf hammering which will absolutely cause an exodus. The past updates suggest this is possible. I hope that is not the case for once.
But, what if this IS balancing? In games no matter what, there is a meta. But what if all the rest is buffed enough where the meta is used for world records, and the rest can actually compete. I can argue that before this, it was entirely unbalanced. Go to ESOLogs and see the group comps and find a NB DPS in new DLC HM trials. You cant. The current balance of the game made classes unusable. To me, this IS the balance that we finally needed. Hundreds of combinations to use to hit the numbers required for end game.2 -
Renato90085✭✭✭✭✭Renato90085 wrote: »for me , I am glad this subclass for my most friends can make a toon they want and I have some idea in my tank/healer toon too
but I think 90% player just worry Zos ability to balance 21 skill line ,me too ,if 2 beam arc is real next meta and I can’t use original nb dd did sbs because nb skill too good in arc got nerfed ,I think I will leave like my friends
I alway looking for gf try help pug do trial or dungeon ,I know your mean ,there have many ppl can’t/no time doing this ,but i just can’t believe zos can did
And what is TLDR, sorry English not my main Language
TLDR = "Too Long Didnt Read" lol
I disagree that 90% of players are worried about this. I think its the opposite when you talk to people outside the end game community. People that currently struggle in content because they dont have the time to play see an easier way to shorten the commitment requirement by raising the floor and are excited about it. From the feedback I have seen in THOSE communities, its been excitement. Everyone is hyper focused on the arc beam. But there are other buffs out there. There are other combinations that are going to bring numbers up much higher than before on a number of different combos.
So say currently, a prog group requires 120k dps to get into a VRGHM. That requirement is there because the content is extremely difficult. Those groups might now require the 170k. Ok, but before 120k was good and the content difficulty is unchanged. So now, a bunch of non meta people with a main DK and now a cro line added can now hit that original 120k when they only hit 100k before and be good enough to have a shot at VRGHM without the meta. The floor raises in a ton of different combos. Its not just about the arc meta. The arc meta will always exist because of cleave and ease of use. And further, arc meta is still ok. That power bump still gives players that dont have the time the opportunity to compete in pve content they couldnt before because of the big buff. Leaving the game because something is "too strong" makes no sense imo.
If the argument is now, "all groups will require something i dont want to play". I make the argument that more groups will now exist because of subclassing that didnt exist before and those new groups wont care about requiring the meta. You may be too use to end game groups being too particular. This buff across the board with subclassing opens up opportunity for more people to be involved including more leads with newer ideas of optimization and less restrictions than the current end game gatekeeping community.
Oh,thank answer
I think I can remember you mean ,But I still doubt zos0 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Simple explanation for end game.
The only DPS class needed is arcanist. Now every class brings the fatecarver, and whatever the required ultimates are for buffs....fatecarver + atro, fatecarver + Necro ult, and so on.4 -
Wereswan✭✭✭✭Simple explanation for end game.
The only DPS class needed is arcanist. Now every class brings the fatecarver, and whatever the required ultimates are for buffs....fatecarver + atro, fatecarver + Necro ult, and so on.
As someone put it in another thread, it's basically "choose which flair to customize your Arcanist with."14 -
TORCH15✭✭✭How is arcanist the only option? Arcanist may be meta, but if the content difficulty remains unchanged, the current meta is 120k arcanists now.
Ok, so a bunch of other classes can now hit 130+ with various combos potentially, right? So, now people could actually do the same content with a variety of choices. Arcanist may still be the best. But other classes are now good enough too. I dont why this is so hard to understand.
A necro/Templar/DK/nb combo is going to hit very, very hard. Say you pick 3 of those 4 and hit 145k. Thats still a huge boost and you can actually be better than before AND have variety, aka have fun rather than just pick the arcanist. If a group requires only arcanists because they want 170k, then find a different group because now 140k is possible therefore there will be more groups doing end game that are not meta chasing because they werent meta chasing before either, but were punished for it.0 -
the1andonlyskwex✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭How is arcanist the only option? Arcanist may be meta, but if the content difficulty remains unchanged, the current meta is 120k arcanists now.
Ok, so a bunch of other classes can now hit 130+ with various combos potentially, right? So, now people could actually do the same content with a variety of choices. Arcanist may still be the best. But other classes are now good enough too. I dont why this is so hard to understand.
A necro/Templar/DK/nb combo is going to hit very, very hard. Say you pick 3 of those 4 and hit 145k. Thats still a huge boost and you can actually be better than before AND have variety, aka have fun rather than just pick the arcanist. If a group requires only arcanists because they want 170k, then find a different group because now 140k is possible therefore there will be more groups doing end game that are not meta chasing because they werent meta chasing before either, but were punished for it.
No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).19 -
sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭How is arcanist the only option? Arcanist may be meta, but if the content difficulty remains unchanged, the current meta is 120k arcanists now.
Ok, so a bunch of other classes can now hit 130+ with various combos potentially, right? So, now people could actually do the same content with a variety of choices. Arcanist may still be the best. But other classes are now good enough too. I dont why this is so hard to understand.
A necro/Templar/DK/nb combo is going to hit very, very hard. Say you pick 3 of those 4 and hit 145k. Thats still a huge boost and you can actually be better than before AND have variety, aka have fun rather than just pick the arcanist. If a group requires only arcanists because they want 170k, then find a different group because now 140k is possible therefore there will be more groups doing end game that are not meta chasing because they werent meta chasing before either, but were punished for it.
The idea that subclassing solves the problem of class imbalance by letting everyone borrow from stronger kits misses the point entirely. It’s not a solution to say, “Just become a Necromancer-Paladin-Elementalist.” That’s an admission that the dev team has no plans to fix underperforming classes or skill lines, only to let players paper over those issues with mix-and-match workarounds.
Some of us chose a class because we liked its concept, its mechanics, its identity. The subclass system risks turning those into hollow shells. Instead of meaningful class improvement, we’re getting a kind of aesthetic overlay, where you dress up a different build in the old name and hope it feels the same. It won’t.22 -
Elvenheart✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭First, a disclaimer. I’ve only participated in normal PUG trial groups and older vet dungeon groups, also mostly PUGs and just for the monster masks, so I’ve never been required by a group leader to have a specific class or build.
In a lot of the threads I see that one of the worst fears seems to be that for endgame, vet hardmode trial and dungeon leaders are going start saying, “To be in our group, I need you to bring a _____ base class with “W” skill line swapped to “X” skill line and “Y” skill line swapped to “Z” skill line, using ____ skills on bars 1 & 2, and wearing _____ golded out sets.”
Now, first I can’t believe that ALL vet hardmode group leaders get this specific, but it’s been talked about enough on the forums over the years that I can believe some leaders must require specific builds and sets in order to make their group successful and achieve their goals for the players involved. And I don’t find anything wrong with that if all of their participants are in agreement. But I have to believe that some leaders out there allow a bit more leeway with their group make up.
But now posts are saying or implying that ALL endgame group leaders will start doing this. I don’t really believe that, but for the ones that are currently doing it, how will it be any different? Aren’t they already doing everything BUT requiring the participants to swap class skill lines? And for the people that actually choose to be in those types of endgame groups, if they’re already being controlled to the extent that they are, why is this any worse? It seems like that the people in these particular types of groups already have the mentality that they want to do everything they can do to do their part and making the run a success by following the leader’s instructions, so won’t they want to do this too if it gives them an advantage?1 -
TORCH15✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »
No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.0 -
TORCH15✭✭✭sans-culottes wrote: »
The idea that subclassing solves the problem of class imbalance by letting everyone borrow from stronger kits misses the point entirely. It’s not a solution to say, “Just become a Necromancer-Paladin-Elementalist.” That’s an admission that the dev team has no plans to fix underperforming classes or skill lines, only to let players paper over those issues with mix-and-match workarounds.
Some of us chose a class because we liked its concept, its mechanics, its identity. The subclass system risks turning those into hollow shells. Instead of meaningful class improvement, we’re getting a kind of aesthetic overlay, where you dress up a different build in the old name and hope it feels the same. It won’t.
So, if your point is that single class identities wont be able to keep up in end game, i think there is some truth to that but those classes do now. They just require more skill that will be unburdened with subclassing. I think the vast majority will be using subclassing. Not using it is completely doable as it has been the last 10 years though. So it being completely dead really wont be a thing. If an end game group requires it though, i could see that bothering a small amount of people not wanting to do it at all. I think that will be rare. I think thats a valid concern but low priority. I think its an easy fix too, create a buff model where the more single class skill lines stacked the more potent that class becomes? I just dont see your argument being a widespread issue at this stage in the game because single classes are already built to handle all content, it just takes a ton of skill to do certain end game things that will now be made easier with a new system should you participate in it.0 -
TORCH15✭✭✭Elvenheart wrote: »First, a disclaimer. I’ve only participated in normal PUG trial groups and older vet dungeon groups, also mostly PUGs and just for the monster masks, so I’ve never been required by a group leader to have a specific class or build.
In a lot of the threads I see that one of the worst fears seems to be that for endgame, vet hardmode trial and dungeon leaders are going start saying, “To be in our group, I need you to bring a _____ base class with “W” skill line swapped to “X” skill line and “Y” skill line swapped to “Z” skill line, using ____ skills on bars 1 & 2, and wearing _____ golded out sets.”
Now, first I can’t believe that ALL vet hardmode group leaders get this specific, but it’s been talked about enough on the forums over the years that I can believe some leaders must require specific builds and sets in order to make their group successful and achieve their goals for the players involved. And I don’t find anything wrong with that if all of their participants are in agreement. But I have to believe that some leaders out there allow a bit more leeway with their group make up.
But now posts are saying or implying that ALL endgame group leaders will start doing this. I don’t really believe that, but for the ones that are currently doing it, how will it be any different? Aren’t they already doing everything BUT requiring the participants to swap class skill lines? And for the people that actually choose to be in those types of endgame groups, if they’re already being controlled to the extent that they are, why is this any worse? It seems like that the people in these particular types of groups already have the mentality that they want to do everything they can do to do their part and making the run a success by following the leader’s instructions, so won’t they want to do this too if it gives them an advantage?
Ripping the bandaid off - Its a bunch of mental gymnastics of people mad because they wont be special anymore because this system will boost hundreds of players into a new level they were gatekept out of the last 10 years. Theyve played this game thousands of hours and still do, and people that couldnt keep up now will get an instant boost to end game content previously only achievable by a few. The few are mad. ESO is making a good marketing decision here, thats all it is. The game came out in 2014. If you were in your 20's playing ESO, your likely now in your 30s, possibly with kids, possibly with a new career, you have less time to play. This power boost brings THOSE people back with interest. As a trial lead who optimizes groups, i am excited to tell people in a new prog "tell me what you want to bring and will have fun with and wel fit it in and make it work". There will be new people coming to the table with this same mentality.2 -
sans-culottes✭✭✭✭✭
✭sans-culottes wrote: »
The idea that subclassing solves the problem of class imbalance by letting everyone borrow from stronger kits misses the point entirely. It’s not a solution to say, “Just become a Necromancer-Paladin-Elementalist.” That’s an admission that the dev team has no plans to fix underperforming classes or skill lines, only to let players paper over those issues with mix-and-match workarounds.
Some of us chose a class because we liked its concept, its mechanics, its identity. The subclass system risks turning those into hollow shells. Instead of meaningful class improvement, we’re getting a kind of aesthetic overlay, where you dress up a different build in the old name and hope it feels the same. It won’t.
So, if your point is that single class identities wont be able to keep up in end game, i think there is some truth to that but those classes do now. They just require more skill that will be unburdened with subclassing. I think the vast majority will be using subclassing. Not using it is completely doable as it has been the last 10 years though. So it being completely dead really wont be a thing. If an end game group requires it though, i could see that bothering a small amount of people not wanting to do it at all. I think that will be rare. I think thats a valid concern but low priority. I think its an easy fix too, create a buff model where the more single class skill lines stacked the more potent that class becomes? I just dont see your argument being a widespread issue at this stage in the game because single classes are already built to handle all content, it just takes a ton of skill to do certain end game things that will now be made easier with a new system should you participate in it.Elvenheart wrote: »First, a disclaimer. I’ve only participated in normal PUG trial groups and older vet dungeon groups, also mostly PUGs and just for the monster masks, so I’ve never been required by a group leader to have a specific class or build.
In a lot of the threads I see that one of the worst fears seems to be that for endgame, vet hardmode trial and dungeon leaders are going start saying, “To be in our group, I need you to bring a _____ base class with “W” skill line swapped to “X” skill line and “Y” skill line swapped to “Z” skill line, using ____ skills on bars 1 & 2, and wearing _____ golded out sets.”
Now, first I can’t believe that ALL vet hardmode group leaders get this specific, but it’s been talked about enough on the forums over the years that I can believe some leaders must require specific builds and sets in order to make their group successful and achieve their goals for the players involved. And I don’t find anything wrong with that if all of their participants are in agreement. But I have to believe that some leaders out there allow a bit more leeway with their group make up.
But now posts are saying or implying that ALL endgame group leaders will start doing this. I don’t really believe that, but for the ones that are currently doing it, how will it be any different? Aren’t they already doing everything BUT requiring the participants to swap class skill lines? And for the people that actually choose to be in those types of endgame groups, if they’re already being controlled to the extent that they are, why is this any worse? It seems like that the people in these particular types of groups already have the mentality that they want to do everything they can do to do their part and making the run a success by following the leader’s instructions, so won’t they want to do this too if it gives them an advantage?
Ripping the bandaid off - Its a bunch of mental gymnastics of people mad because they wont be special anymore because this system will boost hundreds of players into a new level they were gatekept out of the last 10 years. Theyve played this game thousands of hours and still do, and people that couldnt keep up now will get an instant boost to end game content previously only achievable by a few. The few are mad. ESO is making a good marketing decision here, thats all it is. The game came out in 2014. If you were in your 20's playing ESO, your likely now in your 30s, possibly with kids, possibly with a new career, you have less time to play. This power boost brings THOSE people back with interest. As a trial lead who optimizes groups, i am excited to tell people in a new prog "tell me what you want to bring and will have fun with and wel fit it in and make it work". There will be new people coming to the table with this same mentality.
That’s a flattering narrative, but it’s not an accurate one. This isn’t about being “mad” that others will have access to power. It’s about a systemic shift away from meaningful class structure and identity toward an increasingly modular, even more spreadsheet-like meta.
Subclassing doesn’t fix broken skills or outdated kits. It circumvents them. And if the best path forward becomes cobbling together a composite build with the best-performing lines, then yes, that does reduce the reason to play a class as a class. It changes the fantasy, not just the function. For those of us who enjoy both performance and thematic cohesion, this feels like a degradation, not an upgrade.
Some players enjoy min-maxing and optimization. Others enjoy tight, well-developed archetypes. Both have always existed in ESO. The concern is that this new direction sacrifices the latter to please the former, while hand-waving any discontent as elitism or insecurity.Edited by sans-culottes on 17 April 2025 21:095 -
Zyaneth_Bal✭✭✭✭✭
Content is as accessible as it can be on live already. Players that don’t do certain content or don’t reach certain dps numbers do not because they do not want to. It’s that simple. And no amount of free power will change that.l because it’s not the reason to begin with.I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.14 -
PzTnT✭✭✭While the whole subclassing thing looks good on paper and in concept i don't think it will work due to balance. Im fully expecting ZoS to go and swing the nerfhammer at anything that stands out after this goes live. Which will, unless they actually split the balance between full class and subclass skills, leave any standard class nerfed into the ground because something it has synergizes well with some other class. Which will leave most pure class builds worse than they are now and require multiclassing to get back to current power levels.
Optionally if they don't nerf pure class setups and instead just build new content around the higher power level it has pretty much the same effect. Multiclassing into something becomes required unless you want to be a burden on your team.
It should show during this cycle on the PTS, if they actually split the skills so they can balance them properly before launch this will probably be good. If they just start nerfing everything that stands out left and right, its gonna be awful.Edited by PzTnT on 17 April 2025 21:1513 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.Edited by AdmiralDigby on 17 April 2025 21:236 -
BananaBender✭✭✭✭✭How is arcanist the only option? Arcanist may be meta, but if the content difficulty remains unchanged, the current meta is 120k arcanists now.
Ok, so a bunch of other classes can now hit 130+ with various combos potentially, right? So, now people could actually do the same content with a variety of choices. Arcanist may still be the best. But other classes are now good enough too. I dont why this is so hard to understand.
A necro/Templar/DK/nb combo is going to hit very, very hard. Say you pick 3 of those 4 and hit 145k. Thats still a huge boost and you can actually be better than before AND have variety, aka have fun rather than just pick the arcanist. If a group requires only arcanists because they want 170k, then find a different group because now 140k is possible therefore there will be more groups doing end game that are not meta chasing because they werent meta chasing before either, but were punished for it.
The problem is when you take a look at what it took to achieve that 170k on an arcanist and what that actually means for the game. If the parse was achieved with absolutely perfect weaving and a complex rotation, you know, stuff that actually takes some skill and practise, people wouldn't be so upset or worried. It's not the number, but the method. Instead now you can get 170k by taking every single skill to buff the beam and looking at the boss 5 seconds at a time. Not only is Arcanist right now the strongest single target, it can also do the same damage up to six targets. Builds which are getting close to the beam Arc dps record are PURELY single target builds and they can barely compete with something that can do the same damage to multiple targets.
Right now on live Arcanist is one of the strongest classes, but it gets outperformed by others if you really know what you are doing. Necromancer does more damage in AoE fights, but it takes a lot of effort for example (bash weaving Goliath etc.). The only reason other classes are close to Arc is Azureblight, because even though Arcanist can use it well, Necro and DK can utilize it better. On PTS Azureblight is dead as a group set, which means that even with the live server class balancing nothing could compete with Arcanist's AoE damage.
All of this will result in Arcanist (any class with Arc beam and Gravelord's Sacrifice) dealing twice the damage compared to other alternatives, since all new content since Kyne's Aegis is heavily AoE focused (including the new trial).
The solution of "If you don't like this class, then join a group where you can play something else" is just avoiding the problem entirely. Most people play the meta builds, because they don't want to hold their group back by playing something that does half the damage, because as I stated before, the dps difference on dummy is vastly different to the dps in actual content.10 -
Wereswan✭✭✭✭How is arcanist the only option? Arcanist may be meta, but if the content difficulty remains unchanged, the current meta is 120k arcanists now.
Ok, so a bunch of other classes can now hit 130+ with various combos potentially, right? So, now people could actually do the same content with a variety of choices. Arcanist may still be the best. But other classes are now good enough too. I dont why this is so hard to understand.
A necro/Templar/DK/nb combo is going to hit very, very hard. Say you pick 3 of those 4 and hit 145k. Thats still a huge boost and you can actually be better than before AND have variety, aka have fun rather than just pick the arcanist. If a group requires only arcanists because they want 170k, then find a different group because now 140k is possible therefore there will be more groups doing end game that are not meta chasing because they werent meta chasing before either, but were punished for it.
Veteran hard mode is supposed to be hard. When ZOS inevitably rebalances to make it hard again, which do you think they'll rebalance for: 140K, or 170K?
Edit: I accidentally a word.Edited by Wereswan on 17 April 2025 21:407 -
tomofhyrule✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?12 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Elvenheart wrote: »First, a disclaimer. I’ve only participated in normal PUG trial groups and older vet dungeon groups, also mostly PUGs and just for the monster masks, so I’ve never been required by a group leader to have a specific class or build.
In a lot of the threads I see that one of the worst fears seems to be that for endgame, vet hardmode trial and dungeon leaders are going start saying, “To be in our group, I need you to bring a _____ base class with “W” skill line swapped to “X” skill line and “Y” skill line swapped to “Z” skill line, using ____ skills on bars 1 & 2, and wearing _____ golded out sets.”
Now, first I can’t believe that ALL vet hardmode group leaders get this specific, but it’s been talked about enough on the forums over the years that I can believe some leaders must require specific builds and sets in order to make their group successful and achieve their goals for the players involved. And I don’t find anything wrong with that if all of their participants are in agreement. But I have to believe that some leaders out there allow a bit more leeway with their group make up.
But now posts are saying or implying that ALL endgame group leaders will start doing this. I don’t really believe that, but for the ones that are currently doing it, how will it be any different? Aren’t they already doing everything BUT requiring the participants to swap class skill lines? And for the people that actually choose to be in those types of endgame groups, if they’re already being controlled to the extent that they are, why is this any worse? It seems like that the people in these particular types of groups already have the mentality that they want to do everything they can do to do their part and making the run a success by following the leader’s instructions, so won’t they want to do this too if it gives them an advantage?
Ripping the bandaid off - Its a bunch of mental gymnastics of people mad because they wont be special anymore because this system will boost hundreds of players into a new level they were gatekept out of the last 10 years. Theyve played this game thousands of hours and still do, and people that couldnt keep up now will get an instant boost to end game content previously only achievable by a few. The few are mad. ESO is making a good marketing decision here, thats all it is. The game came out in 2014. If you were in your 20's playing ESO, your likely now in your 30s, possibly with kids, possibly with a new career, you have less time to play. This power boost brings THOSE people back with interest. As a trial lead who optimizes groups, i am excited to tell people in a new prog "tell me what you want to bring and will have fun with and wel fit it in and make it work". There will be new people coming to the table with this same mentality.
I'm mostly concerned about what will happen to all those people who are boosted during update 46 when all that new power gets clawed back in update 47 or 48.
I want endgame to be bigger, not shrink. I've tried to help hundreds of people get from vet trials to HM trials and I can count on two hands the number that have actually stuck with it.
I still have concerns with update 46. Both the inevitable crying when it all gets reined in, and about how trivial stuff is going to be for the existing endgame community, and worry that they're all going to get bored and leave.
Once you've done a 0 portal Bahsei and quad mini skip Oax becomes routine, what's left to do in Rockgrove?
2 reef guardian / 0 bridge Taleria becoming routine in dsr HM?
And the other trials? Once you've completely skipped every mechanic and cleared them in the fastest possible time, which this update has the possibility to do, I guess it's time to find a new game?
By all means make it so more people can enjoy that content. But give those of us already there something to do as well.5 -
Wereswan✭✭✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I've been in normal Cloudrest groups where people said "we've got enough DPS, we can skip the mechs" only to wipe repeatedly.0 -
AlterBlika✭✭✭✭Powercreep already rendered most of the content irrelevant. Some content should NOT be as accessible as nFG1 or something. Especially if they don't adjust that content (they only did in u35).
Thanks to endless buffs base game content now means nothing, older dlc content as well. Powercreep is only good if you like braindead gameplay and don't want to work towards something at all. Why even have achievements and hardmodes if they are a joke?4 -
AdmiralDigby✭✭✭tomofhyrule wrote: »the1andonlyskwex wrote: »No group will want you if you don't hit 170k. People here don't understand that if the ceiling goes up, so will expectations. It's entirely possible to complete content with only 80k, but all of the groups want 100k plus because that makes mechanics more forgiving and makes the run go faster. Once 170k is possible, it will have a similar effect and the goalposts will move. The only change is that the number of builds meeting the expectation will be smaller (because only very specific combinations of skill lines will be able to hit 170k).
I think this identifies the single fundamental disagreement that many people are debating here without properly discussing.
I agree the CURRENT end game groups will raise expectations. This is a very, small subset of people in the community, as i described in my OP. Where i disagree, is that this subclassing and overall buffing will increase the number of groups running entirely. These will be new names, not current. These will be your average players that currently DONT play with end game because they dont want to adhere to the meta and leads dictating their every move and build detail. These will be new groups, with variety, that are actually able to compete in end game DLC PvE without adhering to a gatekept meta like it is now.
Which brings me to a question on response. How would it be any worse than it is now? Right now we have a small end game requiring meta which is met by a very small number of people with a very small variety of options. So...dont change it because...it will stay the same as it is now? Because what you described already is the current status of the game. So that makes zero sense.
Instead, you will have Bob, who has 3 kids and plays 2 hours a week, now hitting 130k and can join a VRGHM because the content difficulty remains unchanged. Theres a lot of Bobs out there. The community is bigger than the current leaderboard names.
Honest question: do you honestly think that if someone can now reach 130k that that's going to always allow them to do 130k? Or is it likely that if we get a patch that allows all players to do 50% more damage, that U47 will then obliterate that and reduce numbers across the board again?
Remember U35: the entire point of that was to rein in power creep and it did so by pretty well nerfing DPS numbers hard across the board. The top 1% bounced back very quickly because they know how to play the game and can compensate. The bottom 10% don't feel the difference because they still haven't figured out that they can do more than just light attack once every minute or two. But that entire center got gutted.
The population of endgame still hasn't recovered from U35, and that was over two years ago now.
And again, one person being able to now do 130k instead of 60k is not magically going to get them into groups. A lot of groups will then just raise their expectations, since if they have their choice of a bunch of 170k people, why take the 130k? In addition, a lot of those trial HMs are also mechanically intense, so if you don't have the DPS to burn before mechanics happen, then the raid leads want to see people who can do mechanics... which means they need to spend their time learning the fight instead. After all, how many people are eager to spend 2h in vCR+3 and need all 2h because they're doing 10+ portals. What supports want to go through that?!
Yes, there are stupid raid leads - I tend to see people in my trials guild post farm runs (just farming! not HM!) where they demand specific setups, different gear sets per boss, specific Classes for each role. Because evidently it's unthinkable to spend more than 15 minutes in a vKA run. Now not everyone is like that, but that's more common than you think. Especially since after U35 (you know, the patch that made a lot of endgamers leave), a lot fewer people are into leading trials. By now, we've also lost Project Vitality, the whole point of which was to get more people into trials, because the leaders of that did not like the direction ESO was going in.
I'm a bit curious as to why a lot of people are thinking this is a magical thing that's going to save ESO, when every other time ESO has done something like this it's led to another population crash. But surely this time will be different, right?
I know the TS. He doesn't want to optimize AT ALL. He wants teams to be able to wear any sets they feel like & run whatever skills they feel like and still be able to clear the hardest content in the game.
In otherwords....they want to have the games hardest achievements handed to them without having to put in effort.
While I think powercreep is good & helps progress mid tier groups. 2-5% per update has been an average. To jump all of a sudden to 50-70% is lunacy.
I think the Devs should do other things to make the DPS requirements easier. For one, for trifectas making the time requirement 35 mins not 30. Allow for safer strategies for mid tier groups.7 -
DimeN3Pennys✭✭✭I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.8 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DimeN3Pennys wrote: »I think power creep is a good thing at a steady rate. Make older content more accessible over time sure. A 50 percent increase is insane. Youre talking about vrg hard mode as if that should be a person's first experience into endgame. Most people that have that complete worked their way up from crags and dd and ttt over years to get to that point. Even raising the floor a bit is fine to me, but don't raise the ceiling 50% and trivialize every single piece of content in the game.
You want them to ruin the game for the people that do actually still play it and buy eso plus and crowns on some dream that new players will take their place? That doesn't make any sense at all. The fact you think it's good marketing is even sillier. It takes how long for a new player to have enough cp to run vet trials or hms? A year? 2? Theyre going to tank their bottom line for 2 years on the dream of new players? They should work on getting those players to endgame faster.
And lastly you say you hate people being forced into playing a certain way, then say 'they should pick 3 from cro/plar/dk/nb. ' That's still forcing people to play a certain way. Pure classes aren't competing at all right now on pts. The benefit to subclassing should be mixing and matching buffs or tilting your class more towards aoe or single target, not just increasing damage 50%.
There are some people who think Rockgrove is the only trial.1 -
TORCH15✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push at the time. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. We decided to go with a more traditional stairstep of content instead for the group rather than leap and take the extended time only doing 1 day a week with availability issues rising up constantly. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.Edited by TORCH15 on 18 April 2025 22:341 -
sarahthes✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭AdmiralDigby wrote: »I'll do my best to keep this from being a TLDR but hear me out. I normally lurk on the forums and have only posted 1 other time ever. Ironically enough it was a plea against U35 which Actually harmed the active player count. This time, its a plea to keep the course of this update. I come to this with similar feedback from players of a large PSNA trials guild I have been GM/Founder of for years now, seeing probably 2k players come and go of all skill levels. Ive lead a few trifecta progs, HM progs, some successful some not. I still lead 1 now thats been going for a while. That guild among many others have struggled to fill trials despite having 400-500 people in it. Why? ESO has slowly been less and less active.
Back in U35 i shared concern over players leaving, because the nerfs were too much for the average player to continue. We felt that as a guild over time since then. But this update seems to be on the opposite spectrum, with opportunity to make this game fun again for the average player. For example, I will use my current prog team. We play once a week, for 2 hour runs. And further, every other week, we cut it short because of some people's rotating IRL work schedule. Thats ~7 hours a month with 6 days between not playing at all. My team contains 12 people capable of progging GS. But we also have about 8 of the 12 that literally only have time to play in a committed way in this 2 hour window during the week because of IRL schedules. This is a ton of players situations and because of that, currently, most newer DLC HM and Trifecta content is unachievable for a massive portion of the player base. The leaderboards on PSNA are all the same people constantly and that says that the true end game community is tiny. 150 players or less I bet. I have seen some mental gymnastics in the forums and other platforms on this update stating why this is "game breaking" and "game ruining" etc etc. Even some claiming theres "lazy players". Its not laziness, people just dont have the time to commit. People have lives. A lot of those comments are coming from that small subset of players. I think theres argument for some tweaking. 200k dps is probably a bit much. But these people stating its game breaking are a small group that wont feel special anymore, because the average player that simply does not have 3 to 4 days a week to commit to a PB prog might actually get a chance at content they could never achieve before with this large spike in power from subclassing and other buffs so far. Sure, there will still be meta things that this tiny community will continue to require, but that isnt a valid argument at all and Ill tell you why.
Say the peak now is 170k dps and all these end game groups spending half or more of their life progging and dictating every little move their players do will require meta 170k dps builds. Cool, go break all the records with it and compete for the coolest youtube channels. But guess what, that means the players that needed 110k or 120k to compete but only were at 90k or 100k before, now can do content they couldnt before. This raises the floor a ton. There may be only a few ways to hit 170k plus with subclassing, but there might be 67 ways to hit 125k or 135k. And 67 ways of hitting 125k+ will add hundreds of players if not thousands to titles they never could get before. Players that couldnt commit to 30-40 hours a month of playtime. This is a game saving thing at this point, more than 10 years into this MMO. Game breaking was U35. Numbers show that. This is the opposite. Why wouldnt we want all levels of content to be more accessible to more people at this point? So this time in my only 2nd post ever, I plea this time that the devs keep on with this and embrace the power spike so the average player can have fun with this game again. Bring people back to ESO. This update will do it if you keep its current course.
It's a skill based game. While extremely easy DPS would likely help your group with some DPS checks. It won't help with mechanics. Which I'm guessing it ultimately why your TD & GS progs have stalled/failed.
There are levels of content already for everyone. If you want to progress. Work towards improving. Instead of looking for the magic pill that will fix the real issue. Skill.
Well with all due respect, you guessed wrong. TD is a massive burn check. Didnt have the burn on Ansuul to push. It was pretty simple to diagnose. And I dont kick people out or dictate down to a fine needle with DPS builds, not my style. GS is going fine, actually. Were extremely close despite constant availability issues, its not stalled at all based on hours spent so far. In fact, my group uses a strat no one has before and still gets speed done. Playing 7 hours a month makes progs longer and not kicking people who cant make it semi frequently and staying loyal to them as friends and teammates vs finding another body for a title slows us but id rather play with people i like. We did with GH, wel do with GS and with subclassing TD will now be possible for our group. Thanks for following us and caring though, which is surprising all considering but whatever. Hope you are doing well and hope HH and SS works out. Good luck.
Regarding other points, Subclassing will raise the bar enough that people with a life be able to get into SOME content they couldnt before. Lack of burn is big issue in many groups that dont have the time to sit and optimize down to every inch they can and play 3-4 times a week and spend the rest on PTS testing things. People like me, and my group , who have lives outside ESO, people who touch grass, can take these buffs with gratitude and push through quite a bit of content we couldnt before because quite frankly, I dont want to spend 40 hours a month on the game progging and another 20 testing and reviewing POV's. Hell, perhaps the buffs will be enough to add a 3rd healer or tank in a group and control mechanics better? That is FANTASTIC variety and potentially gives more ways than the last 10 years of standard comp. This is the whole point im making. You finished by saying the real issue is skill. How do gain skill? You practice. A lot. People in general, do not have the time to do that. People have kids. People have careers.
As far as "theres content available for all skill levels", imo that is a really condescending way of saying "I want it to stay the way it is so people that dont have the time to get better can never see certain content created in ESO". Im excited that the extremely difficult content can be seen by people that arent good enough now. Will mechanics be an issue still? Absolutely. Will it be feasible to say though that this level of buffing will open the door to hundreds of new people onto leaderboards and titles? Also absolutely. Its a great thing. The other great thing, is there are 100x more average players that wish they could see that content than the people currently on the leaderboards trying to fight here to keep it gatekept. And those 100x more players bring a lot more cash to ZoS than the 150 players on the PSNA leaderboards do. Peak marketing 10 years into ESO.
I don't know why you are saying we are gatekeeping. We are saying if you're trivializing the content we have left to do, give us more to challenge us.
Endgame should never end. If power creeps too fast and content doesn't keep up, then it will.8 -
DimeN3Pennys✭✭✭Brother you can't say people don't have enough time to play and also say they are being gatekeep. It's a contradiction. The gate is open. As morpheus once said, I can only show you the door, you need to walk through it.Edited by DimeN3Pennys on 17 April 2025 23:098
This discussion has been closed.