I thought I'd enjoy combining classes based on how I imagine my characters, and sometimes for just a fun silly experiment. I was sorta looking forward to my arcanist not having just ugly green neon skills. Maybe taking the warden's bear out for a laugh. That sort of thing.

But seeing all the classes now getting changes and nerfs to balance them for subclassing, I'm feeling like the game is pushing me towards having to sub class, whether I wanted to or not. I like most of my classes as they are, so I'm just hoping they aren't too meh after all these balancing changes go live.

I'm genuinely tempted to just take a break from ESO and see how things look in six months when the changes have settled in and been further balanced a bit.

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

I'm genuinely tempted to just take a break from ESO and see how things look in six months when the changes have settled in and been further balanced a bit.

Very much this. What they're doing, with the sheer number of new variables and interactions and changes all at once, would be difficult for a well-staffed, highly competent team to balance in the short amount of time before PTS goes to live. I have nothing against the *idea*, but it's half baked and we'll be dealing with the fallout over several updates.

I know some really enjoy all of the tinkering and theory crafting and endless arguing over every skill and every change, but there are also those of us who are more interested in actually playing the game... this has the potential to be enormously disruptive to groups working on trials; players who regularly pvp or do dungeons together; players moving from lower end content to mid to end game content or trying to get into pvp; etc.

Instead of playing, we'll be trying to wrap our heads around all the changes, which will just change again and changed back and rechanged, in a "throw some darts and see what sticks" manner. Then grinding and leveling up skill lines and skills instead of enjoying the game. Then the next round of balance changes will start the process over again.

I know many who are likely to just sit it out and wait for things to settle (like most of the relaxed trial group in one of my social guilds) and tbh I'm planning to join them.

"Login, do daily writs, logout" is probably going to be my plan until the dust settles.

CalamityCat wrote: »

I thought I'd enjoy combining classes based on how I imagine my characters, and sometimes for just a fun silly experiment. I was sorta looking forward to my arcanist not having just ugly green neon skills. Maybe taking the warden's bear out for a laugh. That sort of thing.

But seeing all the classes now getting changes and nerfs to balance them for subclassing, I'm feeling like the game is pushing me towards having to sub class, whether I wanted to or not. I like most of my classes as they are, so I'm just hoping they aren't too meh after all these balancing changes go live.

I'm genuinely tempted to just take a break from ESO and see how things look in six months when the changes have settled in and been further balanced a bit.

i hope they dont bring it live

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

I feel like it's also worth noting how differently this is being done compared to the vengeance test. Cyro was altered for the test for a week and then reverted back, while the powers that be poured over the data and the feedback and let things bake, and presumably another iteration is coming. Love vengeance or hate it (that's not really my point here), players were able to return to normal play while it's being further ironed out.

Subclassing feels like it was pushed to PTS in a rush to get it out by June, with hastily cobbled together changes made my different committees in different rooms without an overarching goal. It's currently too buggy to even effectively test the effects of all the changes, so that's at least a week of PTS gone already. The schedule is quite tight and there's little time for data and feedback to be considered; it will at best be pushed out broken and unbalanced, to be repaired live over the next half dozen patches. This is just not the way.

Honestly? It feels like they blindsided us with this because they knew it would face intense opposition.

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

Here's the thing: You can't just give out any skill tree, since each class was designed with a damage tree, a tank tree, and a healing tree. You can give out three damage trees, or three healing trees, but in the end, don't be surprised if you're lacking something. so it's easy to fall into this trap

Yes, this is called balance, subclassing does in fact have a high opportunity cost.

The game is dying because the combat has been designed around the bottom 1% and top 1% for the past decade, leaving the game a mess for the other 98% of players. Subclassing is finally something for the middle 98% to have more power, do the content they want to do, have the tools in their kit to keep up with sweatier players, and yes crutch on something overpowered like the Arc beam if they need the help to clear. This is not a bad thing.

The top 1% will still be in their own little world of score pushing and KDA obsessing, with their narrow restrictive meta of only the most ruthlessly efficient builds and comps, like the top 1% in every game.

Agreed, I love the changes and haven't had issues on PTS.

AvalonRanger wrote: »

It's the same feeling when scribing skill line showed up.
When I met scribing skill line before, I tried to test multiple pattern of it, but mostly meaningless.

I'm kind of treating subclassing like I do scribing: an opportunity to swap out skills I don't like, for whatever reason(s), for alternatives that do the same thing at the end of the day but function just differently enough to fit into my playstyle or preferences better. Nothing more and nothing less.

1. It is probably to late to put the brakes on this. Well, it is never to late when we are just starting on the PTS but I doubt Zenimax will eliminate a big feature they had been planning.

2. I have not tested it, but I am not surprised by the negative feedback, even when considering this is an ESO forum. As OP stated, the game was not designed for this. Subclassing is an interesting design, but we are probably getting a square peg going into a round hole.

Again, I have not been on the PTS yet but what OP had to say is not a surprise to me for the very reason they presented their concerns.

Wereswan wrote: »

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

CalamityCat wrote: »

I'm genuinely tempted to just take a break from ESO and see how things look in six months when the changes have settled in and been further balanced a bit.

Very much this. What they're doing, with the sheer number of new variables and interactions and changes all at once, would be difficult for a well-staffed, highly competent team to balance in the short amount of time before PTS goes to live. I have nothing against the *idea*, but it's half baked and we'll be dealing with the fallout over several updates.

I know some really enjoy all of the tinkering and theory crafting and endless arguing over every skill and every change, but there are also those of us who are more interested in actually playing the game... this has the potential to be enormously disruptive to groups working on trials; players who regularly pvp or do dungeons together; players moving from lower end content to mid to end game content or trying to get into pvp; etc.

Instead of playing, we'll be trying to wrap our heads around all the changes, which will just change again and changed back and rechanged, in a "throw some darts and see what sticks" manner. Then grinding and leveling up skill lines and skills instead of enjoying the game. Then the next round of balance changes will start the process over again.

I know many who are likely to just sit it out and wait for things to settle (like most of the relaxed trial group in one of my social guilds) and tbh I'm planning to join them.

"Login, do daily writs, logout" is probably going to be my plan until the dust settles.

Sound about right to me. Not playing any of my high level chars after the update hits. No point as I will be one of the nerfed "pure" classes. Been a Templar for 11 years. Too late to change now.

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

I just remembered something else. Didn't the devs say there weren't goint to nerf anything just yet?
They changed the Sorc's Curse ability, so that it only buffs Sorc pets. And that's a nerf for pure Sorc users, because Curse used to buff proc pets too, like Maw of the Infernal and Morkuldin. What gives?

This is my main complaint to. Preemptively nerfing powers or passives so that they fit into subclasses is lame. Now players who might wish to continue playing a pure class get penalized. DK took several hits as did sorc. Two classes I really enjoy. I'm sure there are others but those stood out. How about, just keep things the way they are and see how it plays out? Maybe it works. Maybe you'll need to make adjustments but trying to get ahead of possible issues with nerfs is hugely disappointing.

If you have to nerf passives on a class, how about only apply the nerf if the skill line is on a subclass? IDK. There's got to be a better way than start out with nerfs.

Multiclassing (it's not subclassing, dammit! ) is not part of the preorder. It'll be a base-game feature, i.e. it'll hit you whether you paid for it or not.

React wrote: »

If you're a pvp player and you're for this change, you have no idea what you're in for.

The power creep caused by this is absurd. You are going to be getting ganked for 30k merciless resolves, 30k incaps, 15k overloads, 20k snipes etc. Healers are going to be doing 50% or more healing than they are now. Everyone's sustain is getting an enormous boost. Tanks are going to be even more unkillable while likely offering more buffs and utility than they do already.

Ball groups are going to gain an immense amount of offensive and defensive power.

This is going to create an awful pvp experience.

When did they revert the Merciless out of combat stack falloff?

I have been vehemently against sub-classing since the ESO Direct livestream. For those of us with design backgrounds and mentality (a mentality of problem solving), a ton of red flags went up in my head the very second they released it. Its simply too large of a scope to integrate at this stage of the game without completely destroying certain aspects of the game (which it does through its very implementation outside of the patch notes detailing all the changes necessary in order to implement subclassing).

I just read the patch notes, base class nerf after nerf after nerf to accomodate "sub-classing". So basically, if you like your class and how it plays, tough cookie because those days are over.

For one, the implementation of "your aoe hits a maximum of 6 targets only" because of subclassing massively destroys my solo play amoungst countless others.

I can't stress how terrible the design decision to make subclassing is. Of course its great for ZOS, being able to reuse assets already made and paid for and promote it as a "new thing", but the game was not designed for this and its implementaion intertrupts too much of the gameplay we have all come to know and love.

I am not going to claim that sub-classing will kill the game, but man this is NOT the way and thankfully folks like the OP are seeing this.

Bottom line is that subclassing might make a few things fun, but it destroys more than it creates in the process. Its a step backwards, not forwards.

DestroyerPewnack wrote: »

alpha_synuclein wrote: »

Exactly. As many previous updates shown, when PTS goes live it's already to late for making meaningfull alterations. Feedback is pointless. They already made their minds.

Not to mention, they already started selling preorders, with subclassing being one of their main selling points. Hard to imagine they'd be able to walk it back now, even if our feedback reaches them. ☹️

Feels like we're on a sinking ship, and it's too late to do anything about it.

Subclassing is part of the Base Game. Selling preorders has no skin in the game as it pertains to subclassing, since it's gonna happen whether the content pass is purchased or not.

Not saying it's even remotely possble they'd reverse their decision, because once it hits PTS they're basically saying "This is coming. Feedback welcome, but it's definitely happening."

tomofhyrule wrote: »

QB1 wrote: »

In PvP, things could get out of hand, but even then, I’d rather fight someone running a new build I haven't seen before, even if it's insanely OP, than deal with the same meta builds we've been dealing with for the past five years.

Wait - in that case, what did you think were the problems with the PvP meta from the last 5 years?

If it’s “everyone’s so tanky but still deals a lot of damage!” I’m sorry to say that that’s not gonna change. What is going to change is that it’ll be possible for people to do even more damage, which means people will need to be even tankier. And yes, Subclassing will totally allow these more tanky people to do more damage. The meta won’t change. It’ll only go further along the same lines.

Exactly what I said, that we've had the same stale meta for years on end, with nothing changing. I know builds are going to get stronger, tankier, etc. with subclassing. But it will still be at least interesting, if nothing else, just fighting against something different. I'll probably enjoy it for a while and then get bored once everyone finds the best combos and meta chasers start running the same OP builds, ball groups get worse, etc. Then I'll stop and wait for the next round of Vengeance.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

People are theorycrafting either way. Just now, we’re going to have a system which requires theorycrafting (on your raid lead’s part, because you won’t have a choice beyond ‘take it or leave it’) to be competitive. Even in PvE, people are already showing increases of like +50% DPS. That’s insane levels of power creep.

You're right people were theorycrafting either way. It's always been one of the best parts of the game and now they just made one of the best parts of the game a million times better.

If you're in groups where the raid lead is picking everyone's builds for them, you're either PvE score pushing or in a PvP ball group. That's probably less than 1% of the player base, and going to happen with or without subclassing.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

Now I don’t hate subclassing. It is great for the “I have a character in mind!” crowd, but of course that’s not necessarily going for endgame. I have a Sorc DPS that I’m considering giving Green Balance because he’s a druid in lore so the idea of him using the elements is really cool. Let me say that again: A DPS. With a 100% healing line. Effective? No, of course not. But it is ✨thematic✨

Depends on your definition of effective. You can absolutely make an effective build out of your druid sorc with those skill lines.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

This is going to release, people are going to exclude anyone without a cracked OP build because they can’t measure up (and pure-classes will all be so far behind even the memey subclasses), and then we’ll get another U35-level across-the-board damage nerf to “rein in the power creep.” This is not hypothetical. We’ve seen it happen.

Again, score pushing PvE'ers are always going to exclude anyone without the best possible build. That's been happening since the game released, happens in literally every game. So that doesn't really change anything.

And re: nerfs, so what? If something is overperforming, it should absolutely be revisited? At least it shows they're trying to balance things. In the end, everyone will adjust and continue playing, just like they always do.

Pixiepumpkin wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

Y'know what? I just realized that I won't have 3-5 gig downloads to do any more. That's really nice on my VERY limited data available every month.

Wife and I have been back into ESO for a few months now. I bought the pre-order, she is on the fence. We were both going to get some crowns this week but the more I consider what is being changed with sub-classing and the comprehension of the patch notes sinks in, I just don't know if I can continue.

I know you hate wow nowadays but with them introducing housing at the end of the year, we might both play that instead. She has already shown a fair amount of enthusiasm, even saying them not having housing is the only thing that kept her from playing.

I love my characters here. The ability to fine tune them into something truly unique is a strong pull, but at the same time the classes being forced into sub classing to min max if we intend to get any vet stuff done or PVP really really really turns me off.

There is nothing worse than making a cool looking character and feeling all jazzed to play them only for them to feel weak and underpowered. The nerf to AOE with a cap of 6 enemies impacts how I want to play in a pretty massive way.

Wow may be old, cartoony, have its own issues but at least I can pull a ton of mobs on the right characters and blow them up with numbers flying everywhere and i wont have to buy crowns for cool stuff, I can just earn it instead, which is more rewarding anyway.

See you and your wife there. I still have my Vanilla Field Marshal!