I Changed My Mind...

ImmortalCX

The game had a good run.

I think the majority of players are just running around and collecting motifs, doing crafting dailies on 20 characters, and playing the trading game. That's what I'm doing. I keep saying I'll get geared from trials, but I'm wasting time just doing dailies and farming.

And there are social guilds who play through trials. They don't need meta gear or setups. So having this change doesn't really affect them. If they care about the parse, they will have to grind out or buy the new skill lines.

Then you have theorycrafters. I think the majority of them are in PVP land. And PVP is already broken, so this doesn't really matter.

This won't materially affect the state of the game. It is just another thing to grind towards. Unlike other MMOs where you are gridning for gear, here you are grinding/paying for skill lines so you can be "meta" which isn't really needed anyway.

Its low effort monetization. This smells like the kind of feature a developer would introduce, right down to the name "subclassing". There isn't a vision at this point, its in maintenance mode and they are just squeezing it for all its worth now.

LPapirius

Vengeance mode and subclassing have me terrified for the future of ESO. I'd much rather play ESO than any other game I've tried out there at this moment, but it seems that won't be the case for much longer. I'll probably still play going forward, but I've already massively reduced my play time and proposed changes coming down the pike might be the breaking point for me.

Seems like ESO is trying to evolve into a totally different game to me, especially from the PvP perspective.

Wereswan

ImmortalCX wrote: »

The game had a good run.

I think the majority of players are just running around and collecting motifs, doing crafting dailies on 20 characters, and playing the trading game. That's what I'm doing. I keep saying I'll get geared from trials, but I'm wasting time just doing dailies and farming.

And there are social guilds who play through trials. They don't need meta gear or setups. So having this change doesn't really affect them. If they care about the parse, they will have to grind out or buy the new skill lines.

Then you have theorycrafters. I think the majority of them are in PVP land. And PVP is already broken, so this doesn't really matter.

This won't materially affect the state of the game. It is just another thing to grind towards. Unlike other MMOs where you are gridning for gear, here you are grinding/paying for skill lines so you can be "meta" which isn't really needed anyway.

Its low effort monetization. This smells like the kind of feature a developer would introduce, right down to the name "subclassing". There isn't a vision at this point, its in maintenance mode and they are just squeezing it for all its worth now.

I was working on getting the basic sets of trial healer gear since I've got transmutes to burn from the event. Feels kinda pointless now.

Caecus0

They REALLY need to put the brakes on this.

Classes were initially balanced around the fact they do not have access to certain things. That's what gave them identity: they could do things other classes couldn't, and they were very good at those things.

Subclassing completely annihilates this balance. This is going to force ZoS to nerf skills that would otherwise not need it because classes are going to have access to other class abilities. That means anyone who just wanted to keep their 3 class skill lines are going to get nerfed or changed simply because OTHER classes can do what they do.

At glance it can seem really fun, but once you dive into the details, you start realize how bad of an idea this is.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

It is wild to me that a game is in "maintenance mode" while overcoming huge technical hurdles to bring the crowd something that the series has had for decades.

I don't think getting subclassing to work in the context of ESO's spaghetti code was "low effort". Nor do I think I am "not playing the game" if I am not progressing towards endgame trial content.

I think the game has had a great run and I look forward to more. Maybe it will be even closer to the universe and setting I love so much by the time I start my endgame trial grind, should that happen.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

Caecus0 wrote: »

They REALLY need to put the brakes on this.

Classes were initially balanced around the fact they do not have access to certain things. That's what gave them identity: they could do things other classes couldn't, and they were very good at those things.

Subclassing completely annihilates this balance. This is going to force ZoS to nerf skills that would otherwise not need it because classes are going to have access to other class abilities. That means anyone who just wanted to keep their 3 class skill lines are going to get nerfed or changed simply because OTHER classes can do what they do.

At glance it can seem really fun, but once you dive into the details, you start realize how bad of an idea this is.

I think it is a great idea, because it is always the case that some themes are less balanced than other themes (even if I wish and hope it could/can be otherwise). And now they are finally taking away the enforcement of specific dev-defined themes that it used to be really difficult to work around for people who liked other themes.

Wereswan

Caecus0 wrote: »

They REALLY need to put the brakes on this.

Classes were initially balanced around the fact they do not have access to certain things. That's what gave them identity: they could do things other classes couldn't, and they were very good at those things.

Subclassing completely annihilates this balance. This is going to force ZoS to nerf skills that would otherwise not need it because classes are going to have access to other class abilities. That means anyone who just wanted to keep their 3 class skill lines are going to get nerfed or changed simply because OTHER classes can do what they do.

At glance it can seem really fun, but once you dive into the details, you start realize how bad of an idea this is.

They won't, because a vocal group of players are really excited about those 170K parses people are doing on PTS. They want to burn through everything with zero effort, and they will shout down any suggestions about how to balance this until they get their way.

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

Wereswan wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

They REALLY need to put the brakes on this.

Classes were initially balanced around the fact they do not have access to certain things. That's what gave them identity: they could do things other classes couldn't, and they were very good at those things.

Subclassing completely annihilates this balance. This is going to force ZoS to nerf skills that would otherwise not need it because classes are going to have access to other class abilities. That means anyone who just wanted to keep their 3 class skill lines are going to get nerfed or changed simply because OTHER classes can do what they do.

At glance it can seem really fun, but once you dive into the details, you start realize how bad of an idea this is.

They won't, because a vocal group of players are really excited about those 170K parses people are doing on PTS. They want to burn through everything with zero effort, and they will shout down any suggestions about how to balance this until they get their way.

And there are other players who also enjoy other aspects of it, because they aren't that interested in burning through everything with zero effort - or, more accurately, they already *can* by playing on Normal difficulty, so they can get the storyline and lore content well enough already, and if they want a challenge they can shift to Vet.

That said, I do hope they balance it. I think it would be absurd to wish for things to be *less* balanced for no reason.

Wereswan

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

They REALLY need to put the brakes on this.

Classes were initially balanced around the fact they do not have access to certain things. That's what gave them identity: they could do things other classes couldn't, and they were very good at those things.

Subclassing completely annihilates this balance. This is going to force ZoS to nerf skills that would otherwise not need it because classes are going to have access to other class abilities. That means anyone who just wanted to keep their 3 class skill lines are going to get nerfed or changed simply because OTHER classes can do what they do.

At glance it can seem really fun, but once you dive into the details, you start realize how bad of an idea this is.

They won't, because a vocal group of players are really excited about those 170K parses people are doing on PTS. They want to burn through everything with zero effort, and they will shout down any suggestions about how to balance this until they get their way.

And there are other players who also enjoy other aspects of it, because they aren't that interested in burning through everything with zero effort - or, more accurately, they already *can* by playing on Normal difficulty, so they can get the storyline and lore content well enough already, and if they want a challenge they can shift to Vet.

That said, I do hope they balance it. I think it would be absurd to wish for things to be *less* balanced for no reason.

What part of "I do not wish to interact with you any further" was unclear?

old_scopie1945

Caecus0 wrote:-
They REALLY need to put the brakes on this.

Classes were initially balanced around the fact they do not have access to certain things. That's what gave them identity: they could do things other classes couldn't, and they were very good at those things.

Subclassing completely annihilates this balance. This is going to force ZoS to nerf skills that would otherwise not need it because classes are going to have access to other class abilities. That means anyone who just wanted to keep their 3 class skill lines are going to get nerfed or changed simply because OTHER classes can do what they do.

At glance it can seem really fun, but once you dive into the details, you start realize how bad of an idea this is.

'Absolutely.'

ragnarok6644b14_ESO

Wereswan wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

They REALLY need to put the brakes on this.

Classes were initially balanced around the fact they do not have access to certain things. That's what gave them identity: they could do things other classes couldn't, and they were very good at those things.

Subclassing completely annihilates this balance. This is going to force ZoS to nerf skills that would otherwise not need it because classes are going to have access to other class abilities. That means anyone who just wanted to keep their 3 class skill lines are going to get nerfed or changed simply because OTHER classes can do what they do.

At glance it can seem really fun, but once you dive into the details, you start realize how bad of an idea this is.

They won't, because a vocal group of players are really excited about those 170K parses people are doing on PTS. They want to burn through everything with zero effort, and they will shout down any suggestions about how to balance this until they get their way.

And there are other players who also enjoy other aspects of it, because they aren't that interested in burning through everything with zero effort - or, more accurately, they already *can* by playing on Normal difficulty, so they can get the storyline and lore content well enough already, and if they want a challenge they can shift to Vet.

That said, I do hope they balance it. I think it would be absurd to wish for things to be *less* balanced for no reason.

What part of "I do not wish to interact with you any further" was unclear?

The part where you publically ascribe motives to me that I do not possess, and wish to correct publically?

I appreciate that you would prefer I stayed silent when you levelled such accusations (so that their falsehood could stand uncontested), but I felt the need to correct the record for the benefit of others.

katanagirl1

A vocal minority has gotten certain gear sets and even certain classes nerfed to oblivion before. I would have hoped that someone at ZOS would have looked into the claims to see if they were justified before just giving those players what they wanted. Each part of the game has to be considered as to how it relates to the whole and not in a vacuum.

Sometimes you just shouldn’t give players exactly what they want, and I think this is one example, just like what I mentioned before. If I were a programmer and got the job to implement subclassing, I would have lost sleep over it, yet from what I heard of the livestream it was an enthusiastic celebration of player freedom. If they can’t see the pitfalls of this change then I don’t know what to say. It does not bode well.

You know, in a way this will be the harder overland other vocal minorities have asked for, once the nerf hammer starts swinging. You can’t please all the players all the time, and one player’s enjoyment of the game should not come at the expense of another’s.

Dawnblade

ADarklore wrote: »

Xarc wrote: »

I'm testing it too on the pts.
Honestly, I'm skeptical. I was really excited at first, but now this is what comes to mind:

Here's the thing: You can't just give out any skill tree, since each class was designed with a damage tree, a tank tree, and a healing tree.
You can give out three damage trees, or three healing trees, but in the end, don't be surprised if you're lacking something.
so it's easy to fall into this trap

Then I said to myself, reading the comments on the forum and seeing for myself the power ingame, players who already master the game will become even more powerful, and players who are of average level will be left even further behind in pve and rolled over in pvp, which can lead to a lot of frustration and dissatisfaction in the future.

So I'm torn between the fact that it brings some pretty cool new things, but on the other hand, I'm quite pessimistic about how things will evolve.

So,

• I think we have no choice, ZOS has made its decision.
• This does not prevent us from giving our opinion,
• And we can potentially support the arrival of this change by offering developers our best advice.
  Sometimes they listen to the community

In regards to the BOLDED above. NO, the original classes were not designed around the DPS, Tank, Healer class trees- it was only the classes that came out, starting with Warden, that they went that route. Furthermore, they envision this game as 'Skyrim with friends' and have said so years ago when their attempt at creating a true ESO MMO failed and they opted to give the majority what they wanted- Skyrim with friends- and they introduced One Tamriel. Since then, they've been trying to figure out a direction to take the game to fulfill that design. I think when designing new classes, they thought, "Well, we have some people playing the trinity, so let's give the new classes a trinity option." I think now they are realizing that it didn't work- because the majority aren't using all their trees because it doesn't fit with how they want to play the game. So with subclassing, it brings us closer to 'Skyrim with friends' than any other decision they've made. I'm definitely all for this. Does it need some tweaking, sure... but overall I think it's a step in the right direction and will bring a lot of players, myself included, back to the game.

Originally they were testing the game with the launch dungeons and zones (so way more than just concept art had already been built) using distinct classes and combat that worked way more like EQ and WoW than Skyrim - it was only after the massive launch success of Skyrim they pivoted to 'Skyrim with friends', making changes on top of systems that were never designed to be Skyrim with friends as Skyrim DID NOT exist when they were built.

SeaGtGruff

Wereswan wrote: »

ragnarok6644b14_ESO wrote: »

Wereswan wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

They REALLY need to put the brakes on this.

Classes were initially balanced around the fact they do not have access to certain things. That's what gave them identity: they could do things other classes couldn't, and they were very good at those things.

Subclassing completely annihilates this balance. This is going to force ZoS to nerf skills that would otherwise not need it because classes are going to have access to other class abilities. That means anyone who just wanted to keep their 3 class skill lines are going to get nerfed or changed simply because OTHER classes can do what they do.

At glance it can seem really fun, but once you dive into the details, you start realize how bad of an idea this is.

They won't, because a vocal group of players are really excited about those 170K parses people are doing on PTS. They want to burn through everything with zero effort, and they will shout down any suggestions about how to balance this until they get their way.

And there are other players who also enjoy other aspects of it, because they aren't that interested in burning through everything with zero effort - or, more accurately, they already *can* by playing on Normal difficulty, so they can get the storyline and lore content well enough already, and if they want a challenge they can shift to Vet.

That said, I do hope they balance it. I think it would be absurd to wish for things to be *less* balanced for no reason.

What part of "I do not wish to interact with you any further" was unclear?

The part where you interacted with them again? If you don't want to interact with someone, you can just ignore them. There is no obligation to keep responding to anyone you don't want to interact with.

old_scopie1945

katanagirl1 wrote: »

A vocal minority has gotten certain gear sets and even certain classes nerfed to oblivion before. I would have hoped that someone at ZOS would have looked into the claims to see if they were justified before just giving those players what they wanted. Each part of the game has to be considered as to how it relates to the whole and not in a vacuum.

Sometimes you just shouldn’t give players exactly what they want, and I think this is one example, just like what I mentioned before. If I were a programmer and got the job to implement subclassing, I would have lost sleep over it, yet from what I heard of the livestream it was an enthusiastic celebration of player freedom. If they can’t see the pitfalls of this change then I don’t know what to say. It does not bode well.

You know, in a way this will be the harder overland other vocal minorities have asked for, once the nerf hammer starts swinging. You can’t please all the players all the time, and one player’s enjoyment of the game should not come at the expense of another’s.

You know, this doesn't surprise me one little bit.