Alp wrote: »

According to ZOS most players find the overworld content too difficult. So I will have to assume that people who min/max are a very small but loud minority of players, and in the greater scheme of things, it won't affect the game too much, just the peak of players who min/max and they'll just get higher scores on the scoreboards that most people don't know exist.

I am not sure if "too difficult" is the word. What's true is that overworld content is so overwhelming in size and quantity, but it also gets boring very fast in terms of combat. So, even I, who I am playing from beta, I would like new fresh ways of fighting mobs.

People are right about the mess subclassing is causing, but I would rather have this, than the same old which I am playing for ten years. I am excited about subclassing because I don't have to abandon my main chars to play an arcanist, which I found to be very fun, but in all honesty, I can't be bothered to play a new char, no matter how interesting their class might be. I played the arcanist to level 50 and somehow wanted to get back to my main.
I am not sure if I am in a majority, but I know there are people who don't have the time to focus on several chars, or are just fond of their main char(s).

Besides, scribing didn't solve the boredom equation. While some abilities were cool, or useful, it's not what people wanted, which was class change tokens. Subclassing with cosmetics for abilities feels also like spellcrafting, more than scribing.

I also agree with the veteran content part... Most people don't even bother, since the power gap is too high.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And what's the highest parse on live? How many minutes or seconds is it actually saving?

Comparing OP playing around on day 1 to absolute highest parse on live, which I guarantee will be crit farming and in a cheese build, is not really accurate.

People need to compare their own average parse to a couple parses on live. The damage is much, much higher, and zos has never used a chisel when a hammer will do-- massive nerfs WILL be incoming, and WILL ruin individual classes.

On the contrary, I think knowing the max amount on live to understand if that number is really busted or also obtainable on live is something that is relevant. It may be more accurate to understanding how much power is added to OP as individual player and certainly more people doing that, the better. But also understanding whether or not someone is breaking "effective" damage caps is also pertinent.

So, I did some looking.

The current max parse on live is 163k. So, OP is not doing more damage than is already available.

OP beat the target dummy in 2m 14s.


OP mentioned in another comment there best parse before was

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

And I apologize if I'm reading this site wrong. Please correct me if I am.



But this looks like 107k means that they beat the target dummy in 3m 14s.

So, this increase in power translates to about one extra minute on the dummy. That's certainly significant. Perhaps some people who were just missing out on speed runs/trifectas will get them on live. Also probably some new records would be set. But that doesn't seem to me as extremely busted as just looking at as a percent increase makes it out to be.

The current max parse on live is NOT 163k. Idk where you've seen that. Highest I've seen is a 146k Warden parse on a very Single target setup. The highest arc parse is a 131k. So this is a 25k dps increase, for a completely AoE setup, with less button presses than ever before.

Here some questions.

In theory, everyone will do more damage. Is that a good thing?
Is the gap between the very good players and the less good ones widening?
What is the point of ranking (arenas etc) by class now?
Will the diversity of sub-builds be maintained?

Xarc wrote: »

Here some questions.

In theory, everyone will do more damage. Is that a good thing?
Is the gap between the very good players and the less good ones widening?
What is the point of ranking (arenas etc) by class now?
Will the diversity of sub-builds be maintained?

Soso. People that dont optimize or minmax their builds are gonna see smaller increase in their dps, but increase nontheless.

For people that do minmax, their dps is going to skyrocket.

So yes, to answer your question, the gap is widening by a lot.

In its current form, such a dramatic dps increase is going to make even the hardest trifectas trivial. You are going to be able to skip phases more reliably and deal with less mechs.
Execute phases will be childs play as everyone will have access to strongest execute in game.

My biggest concern is that we will end up with a single class at the end.

Practise shows that majority of people hop on the "chessiest start" train quite fast.
Same as everyone who used to beam their way through the PvE with arcanist, or streak+shiled(arterial burst+northen storm) their way though a PvP, but now it will be single super meta setup that you will encounter in any content you run, and most annoyingly in pvp.

Hybridization is unfinished, yet we see implementation of a second major system (first was scribing), so yeah i guess they just abandoned all promises they made about finishing it up. We still have separate mag/stam buff on potions, duplicate weapon-spell damage enchants on jewelry, etc.

Identity of specs is gone with hybridization, and now class identity also out the window. At this point pure classless system would be better, where our characters can pick any skills they like as they progress the game, intead of remixing a skilltress.

Like how choosing a class when you are starting the game makes sense now?

Dispite all of my concerns, im eager to try and test new possibilities, I think it will be fun for a time to mix and match diffrent skillines.

However, I'm afraid that this will make the game even more stale, and over time kill off completly whatever traces is left of build diversity and class identity.

T3vvy wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

This "game breaking parse" is less than 10k higher than what others were parsing with the vanilla classes. Even at the projected 170k it's not "game breaking".

Its 10k higher on a full aoe setup, compared to the previous highest parses that were on very dummy specific Single Target. If you compare this to the previous highest arc parse, it's a 25k damage increase, which is about an 18% increase. That is a HUGE jump in damage

I really don't think that's a big deal given that you're running triple dps lines. I don't know what people expected to happen when you got to get rid of tank and heal lines to be pure dps. People are also going to just outright fall over a lot more in content than they're expecting now that they're missing random armor and mitigation stuff they took for granted before.

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

My biggest concern is that we will end up with a single class at the end.

Practise shows that majority of people hop on the "chessiest start" train quite fast.
Same as everyone who used to beam their way through the PvE with arcanist, or streak+shiled(arterial burst+northen storm) their way though a PvP, but now it will be single super meta setup that you will encounter in any content you run, and most annoyingly in pvp.

Hybridization is unfinished, yet we see implementation of a second major system (first was scribing), so yeah i guess they just abandoned all promises they made about finishing it up. We still have separate mag/stam buff on potions, duplicate weapon-spell damage enchants on jewelry, etc.

Identity of specs is gone with hybridization, and now class identity also out the window. At this point pure classless system would be better, where our characters can pick any skills they like as they progress the game, intead of remixing a skilltress.

Like how choosing a class when you are starting the game makes sense now?

Dispite all of my concerns, im eager to try and test new possibilities, I think it will be fun for a time to mix and match diffrent skillines.

However, I'm afraid that this will make the game even more stale, and over time kill off completly whatever traces is left of build diversity and class identity.

The same people that are excited about the possibilities will be the first to drop the game when its either too easy and/or too stale.

M

Tandor wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

And don't forget: PvE players love subclassing so they can feel powerful and fun as they play a videogame! I'm excited for my solo PvE builds.

Overland content is so boringly e

Tannus15 wrote: »

yes, it's game breaking. literally. the game is broken.
solar barrage is stacking infinately.
congrats, you found a bug.

I didn't find it. Nor did I use it in the above parse.

Yeah, the whole game is boring honestly. Just standing there and chipping away at meat bags while the boss one-shots you.
But with more power I can better face DLC world bosses, do even more dungeons as solo, and push even further in IA. Which makes it a bit more fun being able to stand against larger threats. More power means we can play more of the game as we want to.
PvE doesn't just mean basegame overland story content. It's almost everything outside of Cyrodiil. And depending on if some things are balanced by "players" status rather than "battlespirit" status, then Cyrodiil also has a lot of PvE.

No...it means the more you HAVE to play a meta build. Which now...there will literally be 1 build that is the best. So to push all the things your talking about. It's not more options. It's less.

Well, the comparatively few who obsess about parses and meta builds may have to, while the rest will just carry on playing the game but with a bit more variety for some of their characters. For those with only one character it meets them halfway on class change but without the need for crown store tokens. I'll see how it works out in practice, but in principle it's a great idea and will very likely draw back a lot of former players which is a good thing.

Those with a single class or choose not to multi class. They will be 30-60% weaker then those that do. That is the problem.

madmufffin wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Those with a single class or choose not to multi class. They will be 30-60% weaker then those that do. That is the problem.

Like the vast majority of people who play 1 bar builds vs those who play 2 bar build right now without subclassing?

As we discussed in discord earlier, you'll be hitting 130K+ on an oakensoul arc-cro-blade pressing 2-3 buttons.

The power creep is pretty nutty.

Endgame is going to be boring.

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

So day 1 messing around I got a 156k Parse using a static rotation and easy to use gear (VBRP Dagger & Whorl/Deadly). This is a terrible idea devs that you will never be able to balance. A few suggestions to try and make this half salvageable.

1. Lock the skill trees. You can only swap one skill tree in & it can't be another DPS one. IE If I'm a plar, I can swap in the Healing Arc Tree or The Tank Arc Tree. Even this much flexibility will be a nightmare for you to balance.
2. You can only swap in 1-2 skills from another class. Maybe through scribing system somehow? Iunno.
3. You can only swap in Ultimate Abilities from other class's.
4.Credit to Lawson1199: when you subclass a skill, the effectiveness of that tree is reduced by X%.

Other popular games that multiclass implement in a way that balances for those that don't wish to do so. BG3, POE1/2, just base D&D tabletop.

I parsed on my normal plar setup, It was hitting 13% less than UD
46. Meanwhile I my arc is hitting +45%. This is day one. It'll only get worse. Abandon ship. Content creators love subclassing because they can create content around it and generate views. Score pushers love it because it introduces powercreep (the most we've ever seen by far) so they can break world records again easily. However it will destroy class identity. You already destroyed half of the builds in the game with hybridization. This is a terrible idea. Please stop.

Edit: Seeing parses hitting 170k plus now.


https://youtu.be/lwLv44bD9Lw

This is why I'm so terrified of the subclassing system. This is going to be out of control in a hurry. I'm also very worried about all kinds of bugs popping up from the implementation of subclassing. Seems like we will have virtually no class identity going forward either. So much for "raising the floor and lowering the ceiling" I guess.

sarahthes wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Those with a single class or choose not to multi class. They will be 30-60% weaker then those that do. That is the problem.

Like the vast majority of people who play 1 bar builds vs those who play 2 bar build right now without subclassing?

As we discussed in discord earlier, you'll be hitting 130K+ on an oakensoul arc-cro-blade pressing 2-3 buttons.

The power creep is pretty nutty.

Endgame is going to be boring.

That's lower DPS than builds are hitting now so no the power creep is not going to be so high that all of the endgame content is going to be boring.

As I said before, right now 99% of the ESO player base can't clear a Vet Trial outside of like the old Craglorn ones and many can't clear the newer Vet DLC dungeons either.

Subclassing shouldn't be based around parses on a test dummy, it should be based on fun factor and whether it improves the game for the majority.

tomofhyrule wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

T3vvy wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

This "game breaking parse" is less than 10k higher than what others were parsing with the vanilla classes. Even at the projected 170k it's not "game breaking".

Its 10k higher on a full aoe setup, compared to the previous highest parses that were on very dummy specific Single Target. If you compare this to the previous highest arc parse, it's a 25k damage increase, which is about an 18% increase. That is a HUGE jump in damage

I really don't think that's a big deal given that you're running triple dps lines. I don't know what people expected to happen when you got to get rid of tank and heal lines to be pure dps. People are also going to just outright fall over a lot more in content than they're expecting now that they're missing random armor and mitigation stuff they took for granted before.

Which will be a problem in soloing content.

But if you’re in an organized group where someone else is doing the healing and tanking for you… well, does that mean it’s okay for the DPS to go up by like 50% or so?

It won't be an issue in solo content. Pale order scales with damage. You could put all 64 attributes into health and still be parsing for 140k+.

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

So day 1 messing around I got a 156k Parse using a static rotation and easy to use gear (VBRP Dagger & Whorl/Deadly). This is a terrible idea devs that you will never be able to balance. A few suggestions to try and make this half salvageable.

1. Lock the skill trees. You can only swap one skill tree in & it can't be another DPS one. IE If I'm a plar, I can swap in the Healing Arc Tree or The Tank Arc Tree. Even this much flexibility will be a nightmare for you to balance.
2. You can only swap in 1-2 skills from another class. Maybe through scribing system somehow? Iunno.
3. You can only swap in Ultimate Abilities from other class's.
4.Credit to Lawson1199: when you subclass a skill, the effectiveness of that tree is reduced by X%.

Other popular games that multiclass implement in a way that balances for those that don't wish to do so. BG3, POE1/2, just base D&D tabletop.

I parsed on my normal plar setup, It was hitting 13% less than UD
46. Meanwhile I my arc is hitting +45%. This is day one. It'll only get worse. Abandon ship. Content creators love subclassing because they can create content around it and generate views. Score pushers love it because it introduces powercreep (the most we've ever seen by far) so they can break world records again easily. However it will destroy class identity. You already destroyed half of the builds in the game with hybridization. This is a terrible idea. Please stop.

Edit: Seeing parses hitting 170k plus now.


https://youtu.be/lwLv44bD9Lw

Locking the skill trees is such a L take. Mainly because all the classes don't follow the same Damage, Surviving, Support skill line criteria. Which means Subclassing will on benefit in certain scenearios.

Which further breaks down, to less creativity, and You will see the same Assassination/Aedric Spear/Storm calling setup. All three are damage tree but line up perfectly if you use this "Skill Lock" method.

I think we all need to just trust the process, because for once it seems like the Devs care about the game. I have been really enjoying reading these patch notes for once. A lot of things I have been combatting over the years are finally coming.

For example the biggest changes the Devs have gave me hope with is:
Bound Tri pots from Siege merchants
Dk Leap now having a delay after you land before casting another skill. (Been broken since beta)
Necromancer with a sheet full of buffs
Templar Jabs with a dramatic change.

With all the new changes, of course this is literally week 1, There is going to be several changes coming. They adjusted a lot of skills and passives already, and they are going to do more.

Don't try to spoil the creativity before it even gets here please. This allows people who have hid in the shadows because they get out performed by other classes a chance to utilize those OP classes.

For example, I prefer to play rangeblade. The last couple of years I can't compete in PvP or PvE, without a very niche boring build. I can break maybe a 110k parse with rangeblade, and for pvp i have to rely on procs like Kjalner/relequin and or way of fire to do damage. Now I have a chance to actually use my favorite skills and mix and match a build to actually do END game content.

Now apply this to everyone else in ESO that are on beamcanist in pve but would rather play another class. etc etc.

The huge problem is that arcanist beam build keeps getting buffed. Right now the PTS is lagging so all weaving classes are hampered, while arc beam build can keep consistent damage despite lag.

Other issues include the double Spec Bow. Pretty much every PvP player is going to have double the burst, and the PvP tank meta is gonna increase so people can survive those builds.

On the tanking side, the warden/arc/dk resistances are increased which makes non-Nord tanks more viable in PvE, but now PvP players are gonna be tankier. At this point, we really need separate PvP and PvE balance.

RlyDontKnow wrote: »

While current parses are insane, this seems to be only partially attributable to subclassing imo. We also got a completely insane buffs with it. Assassination plays a huge part in those crazy parses we see right now. But I also don’t see why they’d buff beam. I really hope that we see some revision of those buffs that came with the update. Those really seem way overturned and (at least in my opinion) unasked for. Subclassing provides enough extra power as is. No need to add even more buffs on top of it.

The problem is if you nerf the buffs, the pure class enthusiasts wind up nerfed even further than subclassed characters.

FoJul wrote: »

[
Locking the skill trees is such a L take. Mainly because all the classes don't follow the same Damage, Surviving, Support skill line criteria. Which means Subclassing will on benefit in certain scenearios.

Which further breaks down, to less creativity, and You will see the same Assassination/Aedric Spear/Storm calling setup. All three are damage tree but line up perfectly if you use this "Skill Lock" method.

I think we all need to just trust the process, because for once it seems like the Devs care about the game. I have been really enjoying reading these patch notes for once. A lot of things I have been combatting over the years are finally coming.

For example the biggest changes the Devs have gave me hope with is:
Bound Tri pots from Siege merchants
Dk Leap now having a delay after you land before casting another skill. (Been broken since beta)
Necromancer with a sheet full of buffs
Templar Jabs with a dramatic change.

With all the new changes, of course this is literally week 1, There is going to be several changes coming. They adjusted a lot of skills and passives already, and they are going to do more.

Don't try to spoil the creativity before it even gets here please. This allows people who have hid in the shadows because they get out performed by other classes a chance to utilize those OP classes.

For example, I prefer to play rangeblade. The last couple of years I can't compete in PvP or PvE, without a very niche boring build. I can break maybe a 110k parse with rangeblade, and for pvp i have to rely on procs like Kjalner/relequin and or way of fire to do damage. Now I have a chance to actually use my favorite skills and mix and match a build to actually do END game content.

Now apply this to everyone else in ESO that are on beamcanist in pve but would rather play another class. etc etc.

They will still be on beamcanist, just with necro and nb passives...
Beam is ridiculous.