Subclassing Will Break This Game - 156k Parse (Far From Optimized)

AdmiralDigby

TheAgentNZ wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

This "game breaking parse" is less than 10k higher than what others were parsing with the vanilla classes. Even at the projected 170k it's not "game breaking".

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

Are you comparing the parsing outputs from 2 different people here? It's not very clear.... because if you are, thats not an accurate test to claim a 30% jump in power.

The video I posted is 156k. In the response you are quoting I said my setup prior was 107k. It should be clear I'm comparing to myself.

Twohothardware wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

This "game breaking parse" is less than 10k higher than what others were parsing with the vanilla classes. Even at the projected 170k it's not "game breaking".

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

Who cares. The game needs a serious shakeup to get people interested in playing again. Coming out with vanilla toned down "balanced" subsclassing that's heavily restricted isn't it.

99% of the ESO players on the game have never even cleared a Vet Trial once outside of like the really old Craglorn ones. Most can't clear some of the newer Vet DLC dungeons either.

Getting higher DPS isn't going to suddenly break the game and make it too easy for the majority.

It's less about the increase in DPS and more about the destruction of class identity.

Twohothardware

Estin wrote: »

Not including OP setups, subclassing is poorly implemented. It doesn't look like most if not all pure classes can compete with just 1 subclassed skill line, and pure classes are going to be punished by remaining pure because their own skills are going to get nerfed in order to prevent OP setups. There needs to be a way to distinguish between real and subclass so real skills won't get needlessly nerfed.

I fail to see why old "pure" classes should be equal to new classes using subclassing. For what reason do you need to remain "pure" on a class? The current system is severely limited because every class is basically shoehorned into 1 dps tree, 1 tank tree, and 1 healer tree. Whether you play as a DPS, tank, or healer you basically have one skill tree right now that's designed for your role. With subclassing you can now have three and build however you want.

AdmiralDigby

For more context.

Just using passives from other classes. Using a one bar build. Only hitting scholar - Flail & Beam I can get 127k parse. It's absolutely nutty.

Tannus15

everything is broken right now.
i haven't seen a PTS with so many skill bugs.

take everything with a grain of salt. we have no idea what buffs are dropping off properly.



this is a base line sorc setup. the necro skills "buffs" are showing from earlier.
frags often doesn't fire.
prey often doesn't fire.
we're seeing weird skill intereactions and buffs not dropping.

OldStygian

Have seen it mentioned a few times. Please explain why class identity is so important


thanks

AdmiralDigby

Joy_Division wrote: »

I join a Friday Pug group that legit struggled to do the Banished Cells pledge. Struggled as in one player didn't know the curse mechanics (so the final fight was just three of us) and there were literally 8 Daedroths running around completely out of control and untaunted. This is ESO's player base. Me, one 140ish CP, one 310ish CP, one 600 CP.

The game isn't "broken" because one experienced parser got a 156K dummy parse one day 1 of the PTS.

It's a knowledge problem. There are currently endless builds and all classes (heavy attack builds & one bar builds included) to clear all Vet and Most HM content in the game.

The problem is lazy players who won't take the time to learn mechanics or put together a half decent build.

AdmiralDigby

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And what's the highest parse on live? How many minutes or seconds is it actually saving?

Comparing OP playing around on day 1 to absolute highest parse on live, which I guarantee will be crit farming and in a cheese build, is not really accurate.

People need to compare their own average parse to a couple parses on live. The damage is much, much higher, and zos has never used a chisel when a hammer will do-- massive nerfs WILL be incoming, and WILL ruin individual classes.

On the contrary, I think knowing the max amount on live to understand if that number is really busted or also obtainable on live is something that is relevant. It may be more accurate to understanding how much power is added to OP as individual player and certainly more people doing that, the better. But also understanding whether or not someone is breaking "effective" damage caps is also pertinent.

So, I did some looking.

The current max parse on live is 163k. So, OP is not doing more damage than is already available.

OP beat the target dummy in 2m 14s.


OP mentioned in another comment there best parse before was

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

And I apologize if I'm reading this site wrong. Please correct me if I am.



But this looks like 107k means that they beat the target dummy in 3m 14s.

So, this increase in power translates to about one extra minute on the dummy. That's certainly significant. Perhaps some people who were just missing out on speed runs/trifectas will get them on live. Also probably some new records would be set. But that doesn't seem to me as extremely busted as just looking at as a percent increase makes it out to be.

I agree with alot of this. However the current max parse on live isn't 163k. That's a cheese parse using Azureblight or something.

Max parse (for Arc) UD 45 is 125ish. Maybe 130k.

MurkyWetWolf198

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And what's the highest parse on live? How many minutes or seconds is it actually saving?

Comparing OP playing around on day 1 to absolute highest parse on live, which I guarantee will be crit farming and in a cheese build, is not really accurate.

People need to compare their own average parse to a couple parses on live. The damage is much, much higher, and zos has never used a chisel when a hammer will do-- massive nerfs WILL be incoming, and WILL ruin individual classes.

On the contrary, I think knowing the max amount on live to understand if that number is really busted or also obtainable on live is something that is relevant. It may be more accurate to understanding how much power is added to OP as individual player and certainly more people doing that, the better. But also understanding whether or not someone is breaking "effective" damage caps is also pertinent.

So, I did some looking.

The current max parse on live is 163k. So, OP is not doing more damage than is already available.

OP beat the target dummy in 2m 14s.


OP mentioned in another comment there best parse before was

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

And I apologize if I'm reading this site wrong. Please correct me if I am.



But this looks like 107k means that they beat the target dummy in 3m 14s.

So, this increase in power translates to about one extra minute on the dummy. That's certainly significant. Perhaps some people who were just missing out on speed runs/trifectas will get them on live. Also probably some new records would be set. But that doesn't seem to me as extremely busted as just looking at as a percent increase makes it out to be.

I agree with alot of this. However the current max parse on live isn't 163k. That's a cheese parse using Azureblight or something.

Max parse (for Arc) UD 45 is 125ish. Maybe 130k.

Incorrect.
I found higher in 5 secs of googling lol.

https://youtu.be/BK6yvdsEn-A?si=_rCzEATXOBQJd3uB

And even without Vamp

https://youtu.be/f3fluYDJwn0?si=A3LcWNsbKCHVGNAA

Worth noting is that neither of these builds have anywhere near as much cleave as PTS Beam Builds do rn

AdmiralDigby

Twohothardware wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Not including OP setups, subclassing is poorly implemented. It doesn't look like most if not all pure classes can compete with just 1 subclassed skill line, and pure classes are going to be punished by remaining pure because their own skills are going to get nerfed in order to prevent OP setups. There needs to be a way to distinguish between real and subclass so real skills won't get needlessly nerfed.

I fail to see why old "pure" classes should be equal to new classes using subclassing. For what reason do you need to remain "pure" on a class? The current system is severely limited because every class is basically shoehorned into 1 dps tree, 1 tank tree, and 1 healer tree. Whether you play as a DPS, tank, or healer you basically have one skill tree right now that's designed for your role. With subclassing you can now have three and build however you want.

Play how you want? Can't have it both ways. If they can't find a way to implement this that wo

Tannus15 wrote: »

everything is broken right now.
i haven't seen a PTS with so many skill bugs.

take everything with a grain of salt. we have no idea what buffs are dropping off properly.



this is a base line sorc setup. the necro skills "buffs" are showing from earlier.
frags often doesn't fire.
prey often doesn't fire.
we're seeing weird skill intereactions and buffs not dropping.

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And what's the highest parse on live? How many minutes or seconds is it actually saving?

Comparing OP playing around on day 1 to absolute highest parse on live, which I guarantee will be crit farming and in a cheese build, is not really accurate.

People need to compare their own average parse to a couple parses on live. The damage is much, much higher, and zos has never used a chisel when a hammer will do-- massive nerfs WILL be incoming, and WILL ruin individual classes.

On the contrary, I think knowing the max amount on live to understand if that number is really busted or also obtainable on live is something that is relevant. It may be more accurate to understanding how much power is added to OP as individual player and certainly more people doing that, the better. But also understanding whether or not someone is breaking "effective" damage caps is also pertinent.

So, I did some looking.

The current max parse on live is 163k. So, OP is not doing more damage than is already available.

OP beat the target dummy in 2m 14s.


OP mentioned in another comment there best parse before was

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

And I apologize if I'm reading this site wrong. Please correct me if I am.



But this looks like 107k means that they beat the target dummy in 3m 14s.

So, this increase in power translates to about one extra minute on the dummy. That's certainly significant. Perhaps some people who were just missing out on speed runs/trifectas will get them on live. Also probably some new records would be set. But that doesn't seem to me as extremely busted as just looking at as a percent increase makes it out to be.

I agree with alot of this. However the current max parse on live isn't 163k. That's a cheese parse using Azureblight or something.

Max parse (for Arc) UD 45 is 125ish. Maybe 130k.

Incorrect.
I found higher in 5 secs of googling lol.

https://youtu.be/BK6yvdsEn-A?si=_rCzEATXOBQJd3uB

And even without Vamp

https://youtu.be/f3fluYDJwn0?si=A3LcWNsbKCHVGNAA

Worth noting is that neither of these builds have anywhere near as much cleave as PTS Beam Builds do rn

I said Arc Parse.

MurkyWetWolf198

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Not including OP setups, subclassing is poorly implemented. It doesn't look like most if not all pure classes can compete with just 1 subclassed skill line, and pure classes are going to be punished by remaining pure because their own skills are going to get nerfed in order to prevent OP setups. There needs to be a way to distinguish between real and subclass so real skills won't get needlessly nerfed.

I fail to see why old "pure" classes should be equal to new classes using subclassing. For what reason do you need to remain "pure" on a class? The current system is severely limited because every class is basically shoehorned into 1 dps tree, 1 tank tree, and 1 healer tree. Whether you play as a DPS, tank, or healer you basically have one skill tree right now that's designed for your role. With subclassing you can now have three and build however you want.

Play how you want? Can't have it both ways. If they can't find a way to implement this that wo

Tannus15 wrote: »

everything is broken right now.
i haven't seen a PTS with so many skill bugs.

take everything with a grain of salt. we have no idea what buffs are dropping off properly.



this is a base line sorc setup. the necro skills "buffs" are showing from earlier.
frags often doesn't fire.
prey often doesn't fire.
we're seeing weird skill intereactions and buffs not dropping.

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And what's the highest parse on live? How many minutes or seconds is it actually saving?

Comparing OP playing around on day 1 to absolute highest parse on live, which I guarantee will be crit farming and in a cheese build, is not really accurate.

People need to compare their own average parse to a couple parses on live. The damage is much, much higher, and zos has never used a chisel when a hammer will do-- massive nerfs WILL be incoming, and WILL ruin individual classes.

On the contrary, I think knowing the max amount on live to understand if that number is really busted or also obtainable on live is something that is relevant. It may be more accurate to understanding how much power is added to OP as individual player and certainly more people doing that, the better. But also understanding whether or not someone is breaking "effective" damage caps is also pertinent.

So, I did some looking.

The current max parse on live is 163k. So, OP is not doing more damage than is already available.

OP beat the target dummy in 2m 14s.


OP mentioned in another comment there best parse before was

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

And I apologize if I'm reading this site wrong. Please correct me if I am.



But this looks like 107k means that they beat the target dummy in 3m 14s.

So, this increase in power translates to about one extra minute on the dummy. That's certainly significant. Perhaps some people who were just missing out on speed runs/trifectas will get them on live. Also probably some new records would be set. But that doesn't seem to me as extremely busted as just looking at as a percent increase makes it out to be.

I agree with alot of this. However the current max parse on live isn't 163k. That's a cheese parse using Azureblight or something.

Max parse (for Arc) UD 45 is 125ish. Maybe 130k.

Incorrect.
I found higher in 5 secs of googling lol.

https://youtu.be/BK6yvdsEn-A?si=_rCzEATXOBQJd3uB

And even without Vamp

https://youtu.be/f3fluYDJwn0?si=A3LcWNsbKCHVGNAA

Worth noting is that neither of these builds have anywhere near as much cleave as PTS Beam Builds do rn

I said Arc Parse.

3 secs
Please fact check claims people
https://youtu.be/CnzFi1r2Xh8?si=mAtrkme8B1tCfOYT

Granted, you were close, but if you’re gonna do math with these numbers then close isn’t enough, you gotta be precise

AdmiralDigby

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Not including OP setups, subclassing is poorly implemented. It doesn't look like most if not all pure classes can compete with just 1 subclassed skill line, and pure classes are going to be punished by remaining pure because their own skills are going to get nerfed in order to prevent OP setups. There needs to be a way to distinguish between real and subclass so real skills won't get needlessly nerfed.

I fail to see why old "pure" classes should be equal to new classes using subclassing. For what reason do you need to remain "pure" on a class? The current system is severely limited because every class is basically shoehorned into 1 dps tree, 1 tank tree, and 1 healer tree. Whether you play as a DPS, tank, or healer you basically have one skill tree right now that's designed for your role. With subclassing you can now have three and build however you want.

Play how you want? Can't have it both ways. If they can't find a way to implement this that wo

Tannus15 wrote: »

everything is broken right now.
i haven't seen a PTS with so many skill bugs.

take everything with a grain of salt. we have no idea what buffs are dropping off properly.



this is a base line sorc setup. the necro skills "buffs" are showing from earlier.
frags often doesn't fire.
prey often doesn't fire.
we're seeing weird skill intereactions and buffs not dropping.

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And what's the highest parse on live? How many minutes or seconds is it actually saving?

Comparing OP playing around on day 1 to absolute highest parse on live, which I guarantee will be crit farming and in a cheese build, is not really accurate.

People need to compare their own average parse to a couple parses on live. The damage is much, much higher, and zos has never used a chisel when a hammer will do-- massive nerfs WILL be incoming, and WILL ruin individual classes.

On the contrary, I think knowing the max amount on live to understand if that number is really busted or also obtainable on live is something that is relevant. It may be more accurate to understanding how much power is added to OP as individual player and certainly more people doing that, the better. But also understanding whether or not someone is breaking "effective" damage caps is also pertinent.

So, I did some looking.

The current max parse on live is 163k. So, OP is not doing more damage than is already available.

OP beat the target dummy in 2m 14s.


OP mentioned in another comment there best parse before was

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

And I apologize if I'm reading this site wrong. Please correct me if I am.



But this looks like 107k means that they beat the target dummy in 3m 14s.

So, this increase in power translates to about one extra minute on the dummy. That's certainly significant. Perhaps some people who were just missing out on speed runs/trifectas will get them on live. Also probably some new records would be set. But that doesn't seem to me as extremely busted as just looking at as a percent increase makes it out to be.

I agree with alot of this. However the current max parse on live isn't 163k. That's a cheese parse using Azureblight or something.

Max parse (for Arc) UD 45 is 125ish. Maybe 130k.

Incorrect.
I found higher in 5 secs of googling lol.

https://youtu.be/BK6yvdsEn-A?si=_rCzEATXOBQJd3uB

And even without Vamp

https://youtu.be/f3fluYDJwn0?si=A3LcWNsbKCHVGNAA

Worth noting is that neither of these builds have anywhere near as much cleave as PTS Beam Builds do rn

I said Arc Parse.

3 secs
Please fact check claims people
https://youtu.be/CnzFi1r2Xh8?si=mAtrkme8B1tCfOYT

Granted, you were close, but if you’re gonna do math with these numbers then close isn’t enough, you gotta be precise

.... yes cause a world record player crit farming a parse with absolute BIS parse gear is eqvuolivent to me messing around day 1 of pts.

Even with those skewed variables. I beat his parse by 15%. You absolutely can break 170k parse this PTS. It's day 1. Wait and see.

MurkyWetWolf198

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Not including OP setups, subclassing is poorly implemented. It doesn't look like most if not all pure classes can compete with just 1 subclassed skill line, and pure classes are going to be punished by remaining pure because their own skills are going to get nerfed in order to prevent OP setups. There needs to be a way to distinguish between real and subclass so real skills won't get needlessly nerfed.

I fail to see why old "pure" classes should be equal to new classes using subclassing. For what reason do you need to remain "pure" on a class? The current system is severely limited because every class is basically shoehorned into 1 dps tree, 1 tank tree, and 1 healer tree. Whether you play as a DPS, tank, or healer you basically have one skill tree right now that's designed for your role. With subclassing you can now have three and build however you want.

Play how you want? Can't have it both ways. If they can't find a way to implement this that wo

Tannus15 wrote: »

everything is broken right now.
i haven't seen a PTS with so many skill bugs.

take everything with a grain of salt. we have no idea what buffs are dropping off properly.



this is a base line sorc setup. the necro skills "buffs" are showing from earlier.
frags often doesn't fire.
prey often doesn't fire.
we're seeing weird skill intereactions and buffs not dropping.

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And what's the highest parse on live? How many minutes or seconds is it actually saving?

Comparing OP playing around on day 1 to absolute highest parse on live, which I guarantee will be crit farming and in a cheese build, is not really accurate.

People need to compare their own average parse to a couple parses on live. The damage is much, much higher, and zos has never used a chisel when a hammer will do-- massive nerfs WILL be incoming, and WILL ruin individual classes.

On the contrary, I think knowing the max amount on live to understand if that number is really busted or also obtainable on live is something that is relevant. It may be more accurate to understanding how much power is added to OP as individual player and certainly more people doing that, the better. But also understanding whether or not someone is breaking "effective" damage caps is also pertinent.

So, I did some looking.

The current max parse on live is 163k. So, OP is not doing more damage than is already available.

OP beat the target dummy in 2m 14s.


OP mentioned in another comment there best parse before was

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

And I apologize if I'm reading this site wrong. Please correct me if I am.



But this looks like 107k means that they beat the target dummy in 3m 14s.

So, this increase in power translates to about one extra minute on the dummy. That's certainly significant. Perhaps some people who were just missing out on speed runs/trifectas will get them on live. Also probably some new records would be set. But that doesn't seem to me as extremely busted as just looking at as a percent increase makes it out to be.

I agree with alot of this. However the current max parse on live isn't 163k. That's a cheese parse using Azureblight or something.

Max parse (for Arc) UD 45 is 125ish. Maybe 130k.

Incorrect.
I found higher in 5 secs of googling lol.

https://youtu.be/BK6yvdsEn-A?si=_rCzEATXOBQJd3uB

And even without Vamp

https://youtu.be/f3fluYDJwn0?si=A3LcWNsbKCHVGNAA

Worth noting is that neither of these builds have anywhere near as much cleave as PTS Beam Builds do rn

I said Arc Parse.

3 secs
Please fact check claims people
https://youtu.be/CnzFi1r2Xh8?si=mAtrkme8B1tCfOYT

Granted, you were close, but if you’re gonna do math with these numbers then close isn’t enough, you gotta be precise

.... yes cause a world record player crit farming a parse with absolute BIS parse gear is eqvuolivent to me messing around day 1 of pts.

Even with those skewed variables. I beat his parse by 15%. You absolutely can break 170k parse this PTS. It's day 1. Wait and see.

Yeah, I honestly wouldn’t even bat an eye at 180k. Hopefully they fix the pts enough to actually get some testing done

Lawson1199

Estin wrote: »

Not including OP setups, subclassing is poorly implemented. It doesn't look like most if not all pure classes can compete with just 1 subclassed skill line, and pure classes are going to be punished by remaining pure because their own skills are going to get nerfed in order to prevent OP setups. There needs to be a way to distinguish between real and subclass so real skills won't get needlessly nerfed.

That’s exactly why they should have a 25% reduction on Sub class lines to make it so it’s more balanced and if you want to use sub classing you take a damage loss cause you are not that actual class. It will keep a lot of class identity in PVE and PVP. Would I love an Execute skill from Templar or NB on an Arc. Hell yes. But it’s going to cost me 25% damage loss. So in the end for optimization and damage it’s not worth it but if I’m solo or just doing some dungeons it gives more variety to what you can do if you want

Vylaera

I frankly wouldn't care if you could hit 200k. The game should be optimized and balanced around the average player. It's not my fault you optimized the fun out of the game and you're clearing content trivially. Occasional power creep is good for 99% of the playerbase and bad for 1% of it.

You also missed the part where subclassing is fun, and that's what matters.Your suggestion to neuter subclassing to cater to 1% of the playerbase at the expense of the fun and novelty of the system for the other 99% is a bad suggestion.

Vylaera

OldStygian wrote: »

Have seen it mentioned a few times. Please explain why class identity is so important


thanks

It's not. "class identity" is usually just a dogwhistle for "I am resistant to change"

The only valid argument for "class identity" actually has nothing to do with classes or their identities at all, but that they stood as a final bulwark against everyone running the same build because there's only like 5 item sets that are viable and the other, what, 400(?) are useless outside of a really low-performance roleplay build or just not useful in any situation at all.

The problem, in that case, isn't a lack of "class identity", the problem is that there is not a good reason to run anything other than the 4 or 5 top-performing sets. The next problem soon will be that there won't be a reason to run anything other than the templar execute or whatever else performs the best mathematically.

XimTheBard

As others have said, parses can really only be taken with minimal value right now. There are bugs and things not working as intended presently.

It is only day one, adjustments will likely be made before this is live and additional adjustments will be made in future patches and updates.

AdmiralDigby

Vylaera wrote: »

I frankly wouldn't care if you could hit 200k. The game should be optimized and balanced around the average player. It's not my fault you optimized the fun out of the game and you're clearing content trivially. Occasional power creep is good for 99% of the playerbase and bad for 1% of it.

You also missed the part where subclassing is fun, and that's what matters.Your suggestion to neuter subclassing to cater to 1% of the playerbase at the expense of the fun and novelty of the system for the other 99% is a bad suggestion.

The average player could watch a 5 min video and hit 100k+ on a one bar build or a heavy attack builds.

Nothing will change with the average player because they can't be bothered to improve, even when it's incredibly easy.

Vylaera

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Vylaera wrote: »

I frankly wouldn't care if you could hit 200k. The game should be optimized and balanced around the average player. It's not my fault you optimized the fun out of the game and you're clearing content trivially. Occasional power creep is good for 99% of the playerbase and bad for 1% of it.

You also missed the part where subclassing is fun, and that's what matters.Your suggestion to neuter subclassing to cater to 1% of the playerbase at the expense of the fun and novelty of the system for the other 99% is a bad suggestion.

The average player could watch a 5 min video and hit 100k+ on a one bar build or a heavy attack builds.

Nothing will change with the average player because they can't be bothered to improve, even when it's incredibly easy.

"Can't be bothered to improve" is an antagonistic way to say that most players want to do what appeals to them personally, and for most people, there's nothing appealing about being told you have to use a certain set of abilities and you have to run 2 specific items sets because they're the only ones that don't suck. So people just opt out of that and do whatever they want to. This is why power creep is a good thing. You will continue to optimize every ounce of fun out of the game while everyone else gets free damage to do more stuff they didn't or couldn't do before.

Joy_Division

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I join a Friday Pug group that legit struggled to do the Banished Cells pledge. Struggled as in one player didn't know the curse mechanics (so the final fight was just three of us) and there were literally 8 Daedroths running around completely out of control and untaunted. This is ESO's player base. Me, one 140ish CP, one 310ish CP, one 600 CP.

The game isn't "broken" because one experienced parser got a 156K dummy parse one day 1 of the PTS.

It's a knowledge problem. There are currently endless builds and all classes (heavy attack builds & one bar builds included) to clear all Vet and Most HM content in the game.

The problem is lazy players who won't take the time to learn mechanics or put together a half decent build.

It doesn't matter what you perceive to be problem. The reality is a large chunk of the ESO player base struggles to clear Banished Cells.

The best players are really loud on these forums insisting the game ought to be balanced around what it is they are capable of, whether it is PvE or PvP. In my opinion, this has made the game worse, very much so. In PvP I have had to deal with constant nerfs for over a decade that has resulted in a awful meta of perpetual stalemates, players constantly healing to full, nobody running out of resources, everyone speed cap, healing/tanking supercharged because on constant whining of how certain offensive skills are overpowered/broken. In PvE, because I am not a professional parser, I constantly feel weaker because ZOS invariably nerfs or changes perceived overpowered/broken things because the top 1% of the playerbase doesn't feel the latest trial is particularly very challenging. Meanwhile, we mortals who do understand the game's mechanic find ourselves find ourselves banging our heads in progression raids for trials made years ago.

Day 1 on a buggy PTS declaring the game broken ands saying ZOS should scrap an entire system them been working for years on is alarmist. A lot of people are excited about subclassing and it deserves a chance to be investigated, examined, and fleshed out as best as it can. It is true there are probably going to be legitimately certain combinations that are unhealthy for the game. ZOS said as much and ask us to report them. But that's entirely different from saying to just junk the entire system a few hours after on the first iteration of the (buggy) PTS is released.

AdmiralDigby

Vylaera wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Vylaera wrote: »

I frankly wouldn't care if you could hit 200k. The game should be optimized and balanced around the average player. It's not my fault you optimized the fun out of the game and you're clearing content trivially. Occasional power creep is good for 99% of the playerbase and bad for 1% of it.

You also missed the part where subclassing is fun, and that's what matters.Your suggestion to neuter subclassing to cater to 1% of the playerbase at the expense of the fun and novelty of the system for the other 99% is a bad suggestion.

The average player could watch a 5 min video and hit 100k+ on a one bar build or a heavy attack builds.

Nothing will change with the average player because they can't be bothered to improve, even when it's incredibly easy.

"Can't be bothered to improve" is an antagonistic way to say that most players want to do what appeals to them personally, and for most people, there's nothing appealing about being told you have to use a certain set of abilities and you have to run 2 specific items sets because they're the only ones that don't suck. So people just opt out of that and do whatever they want to. This is why power creep is a good thing. You will continue to optimize every ounce of fun out of the game while everyone else gets free damage to do more stuff they didn't or couldn't do before.

The amount of flexibility available to players to clear the vast majority of content (including HMs) is essentially very big.

You only need 70-80k dps for most HMs. You can hit that with any combo or crafted gear, overland sets and trial gear. Provided it's a dps gear set and you are using dps skills.

AdmiralDigby

Joy_Division wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I join a Friday Pug group that legit struggled to do the Banished Cells pledge. Struggled as in one player didn't know the curse mechanics (so the final fight was just three of us) and there were literally 8 Daedroths running around completely out of control and untaunted. This is ESO's player base. Me, one 140ish CP, one 310ish CP, one 600 CP.

The game isn't "broken" because one experienced parser got a 156K dummy parse one day 1 of the PTS.

It's a knowledge problem. There are currently endless builds and all classes (heavy attack builds & one bar builds included) to clear all Vet and Most HM content in the game.

The problem is lazy players who won't take the time to learn mechanics or put together a half decent build.

It doesn't matter what you perceive to be problem. The reality is a large chunk of the ESO player base struggles to clear Banished Cells.

The best players are really loud on these forums insisting the game ought to be balanced around what it is they are capable of, whether it is PvE or PvP. In my opinion, this has made the game worse, very much so. In PvP I have had to deal with constant nerfs for over a decade that has resulted in a awful meta of perpetual stalemates, players constantly healing to full, nobody running out of resources, everyone speed cap, healing/tanking supercharged because on constant whining of how certain offensive skills are overpowered/broken. In PvE, because I am not a professional parser, I constantly feel weaker because ZOS invariably nerfs or changes perceived overpowered/broken things because the top 1% of the playerbase doesn't feel the latest trial is particularly very challenging. Meanwhile, we mortals who do understand the game's mechanic find ourselves find ourselves banging our heads in progression raids for trials made years ago.

Day 1 on a buggy PTS declaring the game broken ands saying ZOS should scrap an entire system them been working for years on is alarmist. A lot of people are excited about subclassing and it deserves a chance to be investigated, examined, and fleshed out as best as it can. It is true there are probably going to be legitimately certain combinations that are unhealthy for the game. ZOS said as much and ask us to report them. But that's entirely different from saying to just junk the entire system a few hours after on the first iteration of the (buggy) PTS is released.

It's not a capability problem you can make a 2 button build to clear banished cells.

Why people can't do it is because the game doesn't have a tutorial how to create a decent build. They have tank gear on trying to dps while ignoring mechanics.

Two 5 min videos, one of a basic build (of their choosing...) and another outlining banished cell mechanics would help the. 300% more then multiclassing.

That is the issue.

gc0018

All the suggestion looks reasonable, only partial skill / ult will be interesting enough.
The current problem is that ZOS doesn't realize that they don't have the ability/enough people to balance the subclass in the current setup.

AdmiralDigby

gc0018 wrote: »

All the suggestion looks reasonable, only partial skill / ult will be interesting enough.
The current problem is that ZOS doesn't realize that they don't have the ability/enough people to balance the subclass in the current setup.

Not even balance, they don't have the ability to flush out all the bugs.

The pts patch notes had a bug fix for hurricane skill for sorc...that's been interesting he game for years.

Now they are going to have 100,000 more interections between new skills and passives. Even. If subclassing was a great idea, they are not capable enough to pull this off.

gc0018

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

gc0018 wrote: »

All the suggestion looks reasonable, only partial skill / ult will be interesting enough.
The current problem is that ZOS doesn't realize that they don't have the ability/enough people to balance the subclass in the current setup.

Not even balance, they don't have the ability to flush out all the bugs.

The pts patch notes had a bug fix for hurricane skill for sorc...that's been interesting he game for years.

Now they are going to have 100,000 more interections between new skills and passives. Even. If subclassing was a great idea, they are not capable enough to pull this off.

Fair enough. I completely forget the bug combination. The Devs are trying to kill their programmer

WuffyCerulei

I mean that's why we have the PTS. To figure things out like this. Good ya caught it day 1.

thedoodle_90

You do realize ESO you get stronger with every update and newer content is based on that new strength while older content is easier right? Your ideas sound horrible. The whole point of unlocking subclasses is for the fun of the variety. Sorry fun kills your OMGMYNUMBERS!!! You could try playing the game instead of looking at a number sheet.

Lystrad

OldStygian wrote: »

Have seen it mentioned a few times. Please explain why class identity is so important


thanks

Class identity creates a cohesive character construct, but it's mostly for the power fantasy and roleplay of a character.

What people who bring up class identity often forget though is that it's a two sided coin. Not everyone bases their character's identity around the archetype they picked at character creation. Some people build their character around the weapon or type of magic they chose to wield, or just the general vibes the character gives off with something like lots of pets, or the color of their spell effects.

For the people who build around the archetype chosen at character creation, things like scribing and subclassing, and even weapon skills can erode their class identity if those things are strong enough that they feel pushed to replace class abilities with them. That is why you often see people in this group push for buffs to "iconic" class abilities to make them used more often over neutral abilities in a similar niche.

At the same time, for the other group of people who's class identity is built around a specific theme, class abilities being too strong can erode their class identity, a great example is all of the frost wardens you see complaining about the fact that they feel they have to use scorch and netch, because their class fantasy doesn't involve bugs. For people in this group things like scribing and subclassing help rather than hinder their class identity, as now they can carve off the parts of the base kit that doesn't fit their identity and replace them with things that do, like a sorcerer who prefers fire over lightning and views their class identity as something of a dagon cultist dropping stormcalling for ardent flame.

Lord_Hev

Lystrad wrote: »

OldStygian wrote: »

Have seen it mentioned a few times. Please explain why class identity is so important


thanks

Class identity creates a cohesive character construct, but it's mostly for the power fantasy and roleplay of a character.

What people who bring up class identity often forget though is that it's a two sided coin. Not everyone bases their character's identity around the archetype they picked at character creation. Some people build their character around the weapon or type of magic they chose to wield, or just the general vibes the character gives off with something like lots of pets, or the color of their spell effects.

For the people who build around the archetype chosen at character creation, things like scribing and subclassing, and even weapon skills can erode their class identity if those things are strong enough that they feel pushed to replace class abilities with them. That is why you often see people in this group push for buffs to "iconic" class abilities to make them used more often over neutral abilities in a similar niche.

At the same time, for the other group of people who's class identity is built around a specific theme, class abilities being too strong can erode their class identity, a great example is all of the frost wardens you see complaining about the fact that they feel they have to use scorch and netch, because their class fantasy doesn't involve bugs. For people in this group things like scribing and subclassing help rather than hinder their class identity, as now they can carve off the parts of the base kit that doesn't fit their identity and replace them with things that do, like a sorcerer who prefers fire over lightning and views their class identity as something of a dagon cultist dropping stormcalling for ardent flame.

A good take. The issue I see is people in that second group who think sub-classing is the answer to their problem; just buy into an inherently bad system without much thought put into the consequences. Many requests have been given to address those pain-points: Destro staff buffs, more weapon skills/skill-lines/variants, Guild skill-lines, world skill-lines... scribing(lol). A glance at the current world and guild skill-lines are a joke, like they could easily expand vastly on both fighters and mage guild skillines to account for the various RP themes for different arche-types. But no... let's go with the easier route of rehashing carefully constructed class skill-lines and turning it into a free-for-all because apparently this is amazing RP and theory-craft potential (spoiler-alert, it fails horrifically and the overall game balance only gets progressively worse from here, with the pvp and pve endgame environments all looking more, and more same-ly-ish!)

Renato90085

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Twohothardware wrote: »

Estin wrote: »

Not including OP setups, subclassing is poorly implemented. It doesn't look like most if not all pure classes can compete with just 1 subclassed skill line, and pure classes are going to be punished by remaining pure because their own skills are going to get nerfed in order to prevent OP setups. There needs to be a way to distinguish between real and subclass so real skills won't get needlessly nerfed.

I fail to see why old "pure" classes should be equal to new classes using subclassing. For what reason do you need to remain "pure" on a class? The current system is severely limited because every class is basically shoehorned into 1 dps tree, 1 tank tree, and 1 healer tree. Whether you play as a DPS, tank, or healer you basically have one skill tree right now that's designed for your role. With subclassing you can now have three and build however you want.

Play how you want? Can't have it both ways. If they can't find a way to implement this that wo

Tannus15 wrote: »

everything is broken right now.
i haven't seen a PTS with so many skill bugs.

take everything with a grain of salt. we have no idea what buffs are dropping off properly.



this is a base line sorc setup. the necro skills "buffs" are showing from earlier.
frags often doesn't fire.
prey often doesn't fire.
we're seeing weird skill intereactions and buffs not dropping.

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And what's the highest parse on live? How many minutes or seconds is it actually saving?

Comparing OP playing around on day 1 to absolute highest parse on live, which I guarantee will be crit farming and in a cheese build, is not really accurate.

People need to compare their own average parse to a couple parses on live. The damage is much, much higher, and zos has never used a chisel when a hammer will do-- massive nerfs WILL be incoming, and WILL ruin individual classes.

On the contrary, I think knowing the max amount on live to understand if that number is really busted or also obtainable on live is something that is relevant. It may be more accurate to understanding how much power is added to OP as individual player and certainly more people doing that, the better. But also understanding whether or not someone is breaking "effective" damage caps is also pertinent.

So, I did some looking.

The current max parse on live is 163k. So, OP is not doing more damage than is already available.

OP beat the target dummy in 2m 14s.


OP mentioned in another comment there best parse before was

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

And I apologize if I'm reading this site wrong. Please correct me if I am.



But this looks like 107k means that they beat the target dummy in 3m 14s.

So, this increase in power translates to about one extra minute on the dummy. That's certainly significant. Perhaps some people who were just missing out on speed runs/trifectas will get them on live. Also probably some new records would be set. But that doesn't seem to me as extremely busted as just looking at as a percent increase makes it out to be.

I agree with alot of this. However the current max parse on live isn't 163k. That's a cheese parse using Azureblight or something.

Max parse (for Arc) UD 45 is 125ish. Maybe 130k.

Incorrect.
I found higher in 5 secs of googling lol.

https://youtu.be/BK6yvdsEn-A?si=_rCzEATXOBQJd3uB

And even without Vamp

https://youtu.be/f3fluYDJwn0?si=A3LcWNsbKCHVGNAA

Worth noting is that neither of these builds have anywhere near as much cleave as PTS Beam Builds do rn

I said Arc Parse.

3 secs
Please fact check claims people
https://youtu.be/CnzFi1r2Xh8?si=mAtrkme8B1tCfOYT

Granted, you were close, but if you’re gonna do math with these numbers then close isn’t enough, you gotta be precise

null + Highland Sentinel is parse bis in null bug patch, but this build in 99% combat like Thrassian Stranglers is a parse set cant use in real combat,so no one care this...
i know now all good arc doing hardest pve ,they parse mabye close115-125

Faulgor

Call me crazy, but I don't think Fatecarver should count as a DoT in the first place.