Subclassing Will Break This Game - 156k Parse (Far From Optimized)

AdmiralDigby · April 14

So day 1 messing around I got a 156k Parse using a static rotation and easy to use gear (VBRP Dagger & Whorl/Deadly). This is a terrible idea devs that you will never be able to balance. A few suggestions to try and make this half salvageable.

1. Lock the skill trees. You can only swap one skill tree in & it can't be another DPS one. IE If I'm a plar, I can swap in the Healing Arc Tree or The Tank Arc Tree. Even this much flexibility will be a nightmare for you to balance.
2. You can only swap in 1-2 skills from another class. Maybe through scribing system somehow? Iunno.
3. You can only swap in Ultimate Abilities from other class's.
4.Credit to Lawson1199: when you subclass a skill, the effectiveness of that tree is reduced by X%.

Other popular games that multiclass implement in a way that balances for those that don't wish to do so. BG3, POE1/2, just base D&D tabletop.

I parsed on my normal plar setup, It was hitting 13% less than UD
46. Meanwhile I my arc is hitting +45%. This is day one. It'll only get worse. Abandon ship. Content creators love subclassing because they can create content around it and generate views. Score pushers love it because it introduces powercreep (the most we've ever seen by far) so they can break world records again easily. However it will destroy class identity. You already destroyed half of the builds in the game with hybridization. This is a terrible idea. Please stop.

Edit: Seeing parses hitting 170k plus now.

https://youtu.be/lwLv44bD9Lw

Malyore · April 14

And don't forget: PvE players love subclassing so they can feel powerful and fun as they play a videogame! I'm excited for my solo PvE builds.

sarahthes · April 14

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

So day 1 messing around I got a 156k Parse using a static rotation and easy to use gear (VBRP Dagger & Whorl/Deadly). This is a terrible idea devs that you will never be able to balance. A few suggestions to try and make this half salvageable.

1. Lock the skill trees. You can only swap one skill tree in & it can't be another DPS one. IE If I'm a plar, I can swap in the Healing Arc Tree or The Tank Arc Tree. Even this much flexibility will be a nightmare for you to balance.
2. You can only swap in 1-2 skills from another class. Maybe through scribing system somehow? Iunno.
3. You can only swap in Ultimate Abilities from other class's.

I parsed on my normal plar setup, It was hitting 13% less than UD 45. Meanwhile I my arc is hitting +45%. This is day one. It'll only get worse. Abandon ship. Content creators love subclassing because they can create content around it and generate views. Score pushers love it because it introduces powercreep (the most we've ever seen by far) so they can break world records again easily. However it will destroy class identity. You already destroyed half of the builds in the game with hybridization. This is a terrible idea. Please stop.

https://youtu.be/lwLv44bD9Lw

Templar is currently bugged. Any templar parses that use solar barrage are invalid.

Alp · April 14

According to ZOS most players find the overworld content too difficult. So I will have to assume that people who min/max are a very small but loud minority of players, and in the greater scheme of things, it won't affect the game too much, just the peak of players who min/max and they'll just get higher scores on the scoreboards that most people don't know exist.

madmufffin · April 14

This "game breaking parse" is less than 10k higher than what others were parsing with the vanilla classes. Even at the projected 170k it's not "game breaking".

AlterBlika · April 14

It's just day one, I'm sure in a week or so we'll see more nerfs. No need to freak out just yet

Tannus15 · April 14

yes, it's game breaking. literally. the game is broken.
solar barrage is stacking infinately.
congrats, you found a bug.

AdmiralDigby · April 14

Malyore wrote: »

And don't forget: PvE players love subclassing so they can feel powerful and fun as they play a videogame! I'm excited for my solo PvE builds.

Overland content is so boringly e

Tannus15 wrote: »

yes, it's game breaking. literally. the game is broken.
solar barrage is stacking infinately.
congrats, you found a bug.

I didn't find it. Nor did I use it in the above parse.

AdmiralDigby · April 14

sarahthes wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

So day 1 messing around I got a 156k Parse using a static rotation and easy to use gear (VBRP Dagger & Whorl/Deadly). This is a terrible idea devs that you will never be able to balance. A few suggestions to try and make this half salvageable.

1. Lock the skill trees. You can only swap one skill tree in & it can't be another DPS one. IE If I'm a plar, I can swap in the Healing Arc Tree or The Tank Arc Tree. Even this much flexibility will be a nightmare for you to balance.
2. You can only swap in 1-2 skills from another class. Maybe through scribing system somehow? Iunno.
3. You can only swap in Ultimate Abilities from other class's.

I parsed on my normal plar setup, It was hitting 13% less than UD 45. Meanwhile I my arc is hitting +45%. This is day one. It'll only get worse. Abandon ship. Content creators love subclassing because they can create content around it and generate views. Score pushers love it because it introduces powercreep (the most we've ever seen by far) so they can break world records again easily. However it will destroy class identity. You already destroyed half of the builds in the game with hybridization. This is a terrible idea. Please stop.

https://youtu.be/lwLv44bD9Lw

Templar is currently bugged. Any templar parses that use solar barrage are invalid.

Except I didn't use templar?

MurkyWetWolf198 · April 14

I agree that this is OP, but I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing. I think adding more power is fine, but I would just like to see it added to places they need it. IMO, this just opens up the possibility for challenge runs where people restrict themselves or their groups for fun

Lord_Hev · April 14

Everyone commenting on templar bug when the video shows Arcanist + Nightblade + Necro combo.

You don't even have to watch the video, the literal thumbnail shows siphoning, arcanist skills, and relentless focus fully buffed on bar.

AdmiralDigby · April 14

madmufffin wrote: »

This "game breaking parse" is less than 10k higher than what others were parsing with the vanilla classes. Even at the projected 170k it's not "game breaking".

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

AdmiralDigby · April 14

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Everyone commenting on templar bug when the video shows Arcanist + Nightblade + Necro combo. You don't even have to watch the video, the literal thumbnail shows siphoning, arcanist skills, and relentless focus fully buffed on bar.

No wonder they find overland difficult. They can't use their eyes

AdmiralDigby · April 14

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

I agree that this is OP, but I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing. I think adding more power is fine, but I would just like to see it added to places they need it. IMO, this just opens up the possibility for challenge runs where people restrict themselves or their groups for fun

Didn't happen with hybridization. Won't happen here. All it will do is put alot of pressure on people to not be a single class.

madmufffin · April 14

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

This "game breaking parse" is less than 10k higher than what others were parsing with the vanilla classes. Even at the projected 170k it's not "game breaking".

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

And the other two class lines you're using both parse 145k+

Malyore · April 14

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

And don't forget: PvE players love subclassing so they can feel powerful and fun as they play a videogame! I'm excited for my solo PvE builds.

Overland content is so boringly e

Tannus15 wrote: »

yes, it's game breaking. literally. the game is broken.
solar barrage is stacking infinately.
congrats, you found a bug.

I didn't find it. Nor did I use it in the above parse.

Yeah, the whole game is boring honestly. Just standing there and chipping away at meat bags while the boss one-shots you.
But with more power I can better face DLC world bosses, do even more dungeons as solo, and push even further in IA. Which makes it a bit more fun being able to stand against larger threats. More power means we can play more of the game as we want to.
PvE doesn't just mean basegame overland story content. It's almost everything outside of Cyrodiil. And depending on if some things are balanced by "players" status rather than "battlespirit" status, then Cyrodiil also has a lot of PvE.

Twohothardware · April 14

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

This "game breaking parse" is less than 10k higher than what others were parsing with the vanilla classes. Even at the projected 170k it's not "game breaking".

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

Who cares. The game needs a serious shakeup to get people interested in playing again. Coming out with vanilla toned down "balanced" subsclassing that's heavily restricted isn't it.

99% of the ESO players on the game have never even cleared a Vet Trial once outside of like the really old Craglorn ones. Most can't clear some of the newer Vet DLC dungeons either.

Getting higher DPS isn't going to suddenly break the game and make it too easy for the majority.

AdmiralDigby · April 14

Malyore wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

And don't forget: PvE players love subclassing so they can feel powerful and fun as they play a videogame! I'm excited for my solo PvE builds.

Overland content is so boringly e

Tannus15 wrote: »

yes, it's game breaking. literally. the game is broken.
solar barrage is stacking infinately.
congrats, you found a bug.

I didn't find it. Nor did I use it in the above parse.

Yeah, the whole game is boring honestly. Just standing there and chipping away at meat bags while the boss one-shots you.
But with more power I can better face DLC world bosses, do even more dungeons as solo, and push even further in IA. Which makes it a bit more fun being able to stand against larger threats. More power means we can play more of the game as we want to.
PvE doesn't just mean basegame overland story content. It's almost everything outside of Cyrodiil. And depending on if some things are balanced by "players" status rather than "battlespirit" status, then Cyrodiil also has a lot of PvE.

No...it means the more you HAVE to play a meta build. Which now...there will literally be 1 build that is the best. So to push all the things your talking about. It's not more options. It's less.

TheAgentNZ · April 14

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

This "game breaking parse" is less than 10k higher than what others were parsing with the vanilla classes. Even at the projected 170k it's not "game breaking".

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

Are you comparing the parsing outputs from 2 different people here? It's not very clear.... because if you are, thats not an accurate test to claim a 30% jump in power.

ForumBully · April 14

Let the adds complain if they want

Lord_Hev · April 14

Twohothardware wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

madmufffin wrote: »

This "game breaking parse" is less than 10k higher than what others were parsing with the vanilla classes. Even at the projected 170k it's not "game breaking".

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

Who cares. The game needs a serious shakeup to get people interested in playing again. Coming out with vanilla toned down "balanced" subsclassing that's heavily restricted isn't it.

99% of the ESO players on the game have never even cleared a Vet Trial once outside of like the really old Craglorn ones. Most can't clear some of the newer Vet DLC dungeons either.

Getting higher DPS isn't going to suddenly break the game and make it too easy for the majority.

MurkyWetWolf198 · April 14

Honestly, I think high-end players overestimate how representative their experiences are, especially because they’re the one’s likely to come and make posts on here or YouTube. Yes, guilds pushing for trial hms and perfectas will make demands on what to run for comp, they’re always going to demand META. But I think that most groups aren’t concerned about that. Most runs are largely just guild runs for whoever signs up or outright pugs. If these changes make those experiences better, I’m all for it. I wish I could randomly join runs and not worry about getting stuck in a trap. Also, I simply can’t agree that the issue of pressuring players to run Meta can be fixed by game balance. That needs to be fixed by talking with your team about what the team wants to do and how they want to do it. Or, find another team. How each group wants to run their content is their choice, and if you feel too much pressure to run things you don’t want, then be an adult and talk about it or leave that group

spartaxoxo · April 14

And what's the highest parse on live? How many minutes or seconds is it actually saving?

Malyore · April 15

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

And don't forget: PvE players love subclassing so they can feel powerful and fun as they play a videogame! I'm excited for my solo PvE builds.

Overland content is so boringly e

Tannus15 wrote: »

yes, it's game breaking. literally. the game is broken.
solar barrage is stacking infinately.
congrats, you found a bug.

I didn't find it. Nor did I use it in the above parse.

Yeah, the whole game is boring honestly. Just standing there and chipping away at meat bags while the boss one-shots you.
But with more power I can better face DLC world bosses, do even more dungeons as solo, and push even further in IA. Which makes it a bit more fun being able to stand against larger threats. More power means we can play more of the game as we want to.
PvE doesn't just mean basegame overland story content. It's almost everything outside of Cyrodiil. And depending on if some things are balanced by "players" status rather than "battlespirit" status, then Cyrodiil also has a lot of PvE.

No...it means the more you HAVE to play a meta build. Which now...there will literally be 1 build that is the best. So to push all the things your talking about. It's not more options. It's less.

Not really. I think I can see what you're saying, that this means they have to make the game harder to keep up with top performers? I don't think they'll aim it at that. And if they do, it makes for interesting build experimentation imo.

My current solo setup is a non-pet sorc with Aetherial Ascension/ Spinners and sea-serpent coil. I have no idea if that's "meta", but it's what I've found through trial and error that keeps me alive and dealing enough damage to face many DLC world bosses and some DLC normal dungeons. But it's not enough for some others of the same content type. So I'm looking forward to being able to finally use arcanist abilities and such to better have more fun with my main character, and to see what works best for the gameplay style I have.

Malyore · April 15

Malyore wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Malyore wrote: »

And don't forget: PvE players love subclassing so they can feel powerful and fun as they play a videogame! I'm excited for my solo PvE builds.

Overland content is so boringly e

Tannus15 wrote: »

yes, it's game breaking. literally. the game is broken.
solar barrage is stacking infinately.
congrats, you found a bug.

I didn't find it. Nor did I use it in the above parse.

Yeah, the whole game is boring honestly. Just standing there and chipping away at meat bags while the boss one-shots you.
But with more power I can better face DLC world bosses, do even more dungeons as solo, and push even further in IA. Which makes it a bit more fun being able to stand against larger threats. More power means we can play more of the game as we want to.
PvE doesn't just mean basegame overland story content. It's almost everything outside of Cyrodiil. And depending on if some things are balanced by "players" status rather than "battlespirit" status, then Cyrodiil also has a lot of PvE.

No...it means the more you HAVE to play a meta build. Which now...there will literally be 1 build that is the best. So to push all the things your talking about. It's not more options. It's less.

Not really. I think I can see what you're saying, that this means they have to make the game harder to keep up with top performers? I don't think they'll aim it at that. And if they do, it makes for interesting build experimentation imo.

My current solo setup is a non-pet sorc with Aetherial Ascension/ Spinners and sea-serpent coil. I have no idea if that's "meta", but it's what I've found through trial and error that keeps me alive and dealing enough damage to face many DLC world bosses and some DLC normal dungeons. But it's not enough for some others of the same content type. So I'm looking forward to being able to finally use arcanist abilities and such to better have more fun with my main character, and to see what works best for the gameplay style I have.

I'm also excited to have shadow cloak for some PvE quests. I can make my character feel like my character from other elder scrolls games.
I'm focused on fun and how it's expressed through my style. That means aiming for hard bosses solo, and being a god amongst the men and mer in the story zones. Subclassing helps to provide this.

Reginald_leBlem · April 15

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And what's the highest parse on live? How many minutes or seconds is it actually saving?

Comparing OP playing around on day 1 to absolute highest parse on live, which I guarantee will be crit farming and in a cheese build, is not really accurate.

People need to compare their own average parse to a couple parses on live. The damage is much, much higher, and zos has never used a chisel when a hammer will do-- massive nerfs WILL be incoming, and WILL ruin individual classes.

Lord_Hev · April 15

MurkyWetWolf198 wrote: »

Honestly, I think high-end players overestimate how representative their experiences are, especially because they’re the one’s likely to come and make posts on here or YouTube. Yes, guilds pushing for trial hms and perfectas will make demands on what to run for comp, they’re always going to demand META. But I think that most groups aren’t concerned about that. Most runs are largely just guild runs for whoever signs up or outright pugs. If these changes make those experiences better, I’m all for it. I wish I could randomly join runs and not worry about getting stuck in a trap. Also, I simply can’t agree that the issue of pressuring players to run Meta can be fixed by game balance. That needs to be fixed by talking with your team about what the team wants to do and how they want to do it. Or, find another team. How each group wants to run their content is their choice, and if you feel too much pressure to run things you don’t want, then be an adult and talk about it or leave that group

It's always "not that big of a deal." Players that actually enjoy trial content in general have to put-up with being scrutinized. Or creating these illusionary beliefs that only a single class can do cleave. One look at eso logs for just basic veteran content shows overwhelmingly "stam"-arcanist and "stamina" other classes. Then for the rare "mag" specs they are vastly "Dual-wield" frontbar.

It's such a bland experience. No one cares if other ways to dps are viable, people are collectively convinced you must do this, that, and then this & that in order to clear "difficult content."

"Play how you want" May as well be a farce, because in actual practice, this never happens. Everyone collectively runs the same set-up, and it's incredibly bland. Instead of trying to ease back on these directions and introduce actual diversification in playstyles, this sub-classing just further fuels the homogenization-effect that hybridization has wrought.

Estin · April 15

Not including OP setups, subclassing is poorly implemented. It doesn't look like most if not all pure classes can compete with just 1 subclassed skill line, and pure classes are going to be punished by remaining pure because their own skills are going to get nerfed in order to prevent OP setups. There needs to be a way to distinguish between real and subclass so real skills won't get needlessly nerfed.

madmufffin · April 15

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And what's the highest parse on live? How many minutes or seconds is it actually saving?

Comparing OP playing around on day 1 to absolute highest parse on live, which I guarantee will be crit farming and in a cheese build, is not really accurate.

People need to compare their own average parse to a couple parses on live. The damage is much, much higher, and zos has never used a chisel when a hammer will do-- massive nerfs WILL be incoming, and WILL ruin individual classes.

Those players are the best because they weave well and can get to execute quickly. When you can mix in the 0 brain cell arc weave into very strong executes, it narrows that gap substantially.

spartaxoxo · April 15

Reginald_leBlem wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

And what's the highest parse on live? How many minutes or seconds is it actually saving?

Comparing OP playing around on day 1 to absolute highest parse on live, which I guarantee will be crit farming and in a cheese build, is not really accurate.

People need to compare their own average parse to a couple parses on live. The damage is much, much higher, and zos has never used a chisel when a hammer will do-- massive nerfs WILL be incoming, and WILL ruin individual classes.

On the contrary, I think knowing the max amount on live to understand if that number is really busted or also obtainable on live is something that is relevant. It may be more accurate to understanding how much power is added to OP as individual player and certainly more people doing that, the better. But also understanding whether or not someone is breaking "effective" damage caps is also pertinent.

So, I did some looking.

The current max parse on live is 163k. So, OP is not doing more damage than is already available.

OP beat the target dummy in 2m 14s.

OP mentioned in another comment there best parse before was

AdmiralDigby wrote: »

Highest Arc Parse I've seen is 125k ish UD 45. My static rotation setup was parsing for 107k. This is a 30% power jump. That is MASSIVE.

And I apologize if I'm reading this site wrong. Please correct me if I am.

But this looks like 107k means that they beat the target dummy in 3m 14s.

So, this increase in power translates to about one extra minute on the dummy. That's certainly significant. Perhaps some people who were just missing out on speed runs/trifectas will get them on live. Also probably some new records would be set. But that doesn't seem to me as extremely busted as just looking at as a percent increase makes it out to be.

Joy_Division · April 15

I join a Friday Pug group that legit struggled to do the Banished Cells pledge. Struggled as in one player didn't know the curse mechanics (so the final fight was just three of us) and there were literally 8 Daedroths running around completely out of control and untaunted. This is ESO's player base. Me, one 140ish CP, one 310ish CP, one 600 CP.

The game isn't "broken" because one experienced parser got a 156K dummy parse one day 1 of the PTS.