Class balance

Alchimiste1 · January 31

ioResult wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

What are you talking about ? I main nb, that toggle did nothing to nb. In fact I think my sustain is actually better because of it.

You main a Nightblade, huh?

An entire guild of Nightblades saw your comment in a guild Discord and laughed out loud.

So tell the guild of Nightblades what your build is exactly and explain to them in detail how the change to Cloak to not regen Magicka while you are moving has improved your sustain.

rallying cry + nmg/orders/shattered/tarnished/ literally any dps set and balorgs.

I just hit cloak + siphon and somehow end up with more resources, hope that helps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FjciP6bNFs
mag sustain looks fine. 0 recovery glyphs/sets

StaticWave · January 31

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

ioResult wrote: »

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

What are you talking about ? I main nb, that toggle did nothing to nb. In fact I think my sustain is actually better because of it.

You main a Nightblade, huh?

An entire guild of Nightblades saw your comment in a guild Discord and laughed out loud.

So tell the guild of Nightblades what your build is exactly and explain to them in detail how the change to Cloak to not regen Magicka while you are moving has improved your sustain.

rallying cry + nmg/orders/shattered/tarnished/ literally any dps set and balorgs.

I just hit cloak + siphon and somehow end up with more resources, hope that helps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FjciP6bNFs
mag sustain looks fine. 0 recovery glyphs/sets

This right here is what top tier NB gameplay looks like.

2 top tier NBs using every available advantage their class has to casually 1vX and 2vX. Pulled out of stealth? No problem. Group utility and group heals? Got that too. AoE damage? There’s plenty of that as well.

Anybody complaining about NB being “bad” needs to watch this clip for a better perspective.

sans-culottes · January 31

Oh OK.

TechMaybeHic · January 31

StaticWave wrote: »

I’m an AD and I regularly run into an EP NB guild called “Lord of the Shafts”. All of them are coordinated gankblades sitting in stealth with 2-3 procs per player, all coordinating ganks on 1 target at a time. I’ve been ganked by them a lot and whenever I popped a stealth detect potion, they would sprint away with decent movement speed, while also having a burst heal to save themselves from execute range. It’s extremely frustrating to deal with them.

That kind of NB gameplay is why I and many others hate NB. Ironically, I’m not surprised they are complaining about Cloak nerf because their entire build revolves around it lmao.

Btw @ioResult , @Alchimiste1 is in my guild and we’ve sparred each other a lot. He runs a brawler NB and frequently does 1vXs in Cyrodiil. He also runs around with a gankblade group when he’s bored. I trust him when it comes to NB opinions.

There was another guild, Bows in tge Hood, that was AD if I recall that would siege keeps, get to inner, and if anyone showed up to defend, they'd scatter and cloak tgen try to at least keep 1 alive to try to rez and start sieging PvDoor again on the inner. No intention of fighting unless they could mass xv1 but then would whine if a large group hunted them down. I always find the 2+ vs smaller groups getting upset about being zerged funny.

There were other groups that would just take towns, gank solos or small mans and scatter when anything close to resistance showed and had a character just sitting AFK in stealth for camps when needed (only know because you'd catch it every now and then)

They were all meme worthy making an example of the issues of cloak.

MincMincMinc · January 31

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I’m an AD and I regularly run into an EP NB guild called “Lord of the Shafts”. All of them are coordinated gankblades sitting in stealth with 2-3 procs per player, all coordinating ganks on 1 target at a time. I’ve been ganked by them a lot and whenever I popped a stealth detect potion, they would sprint away with decent movement speed, while also having a burst heal to save themselves from execute range. It’s extremely frustrating to deal with them.

That kind of NB gameplay is why I and many others hate NB. Ironically, I’m not surprised they are complaining about Cloak nerf because their entire build revolves around it lmao.

Btw @ioResult , @Alchimiste1 is in my guild and we’ve sparred each other a lot. He runs a brawler NB and frequently does 1vXs in Cyrodiil. He also runs around with a gankblade group when he’s bored. I trust him when it comes to NB opinions.

There was another guild, Bows in tge Hood, that was AD if I recall that would siege keeps, get to inner, and if anyone showed up to defend, they'd scatter and cloak tgen try to at least keep 1 alive to try to rez and start sieging PvDoor again on the inner. No intention of fighting unless they could mass xv1 but then would whine if a large group hunted them down. I always find the 2+ vs smaller groups getting upset about being zerged funny.

There were other groups that would just take towns, gank solos or small mans and scatter when anything close to resistance showed and had a character just sitting AFK in stealth for camps when needed (only know because you'd catch it every now and then)

They were all meme worthy making an example of the issues of cloak.

Yeah they were an ep guild that used to run in the nocp campaign. Love those guys, but id clap them every time in a 1v5. They are all oneshot bow blade setups that die in one hit.

Honestly nice to see something that isnt a 45khp warden zergling spamming polar on his 3 other warden 45khp polar one click wonder builds.

xylena_lazarow · January 31

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Yeah they were an ep guild that used to run in the nocp campaign. Love those guys, but id clap them every time in a 1v5. They are all oneshot bow blade setups that die in one hit.

Honestly nice to see something that isnt a 45khp warden zergling spamming polar on his 3 other warden 45khp polar one click wonder builds.

You can hard counter DD Warden's entire existence by Streaking twice. On my DK against those DD Warden groups, I'll place a meatbag, then run to safety and laugh at them, probably with some Sorc friends already aiming at them.

The NB groups will clown me once, then run like hell every subsequent time they see me because they know I have detect pots, probably with some Sorc friends already aiming at them.

Against groups of Sorcs, I can... uh... not really jack I can do unless I'm already on the defensive outside double Streak range, or have some of my own Sorc friends that can hit them before they hit me.

Yeah I can X bad players too, doesn't say anything about balance. This open world meta is centralized around Sorcs (outside ball groups which are their own problem) no matter which way. Half of every BG match is Sorcs.

Surgee · February 2

Kenrixx wrote: »

No , you are right. Sorcs will still do 5k dps in regen sets on pvp )))))))

What's up with sorcs on live servers though? I haven't played for a while and returned recently. Most players I meet are sorcs. They are damn unkillable. Before I go through their shields they cast a new one without issues. They never run out of resources. Even when I'm casting ulti that gives me 100% penetration, I still can't take them down...then I get melted in a second with my 35k Res and all good gold gear that was always doing well in PvP.

I just don't get it, and I've been playing this game on and off for 10 years. I can't imagine anyone who's a non pro mathematician being able to understand the PvP in this game. That's probably why most don't play. If you get punished so bad and the game doesn't tell you what to do to fix it, you won't have a successful game. Even if you're not a pro, you should still be able to do SOMETHING. With the way the game currently works, the gap between a pro and casual is gigantic and renders a casual, or even invested player, useless.

With that said, the oversimplification of vengeance campaign is not a great solution as well. I hope they can find some middle ground.

For the record, I've been playing PvP in other mmorpgs since WoW came out. I never had such issues as in ESO when it comes to balance, and those games still allow for own sets and builds in PvP.

xylena_lazarow · February 2

Surgee wrote: »

What's up with sorcs on live servers though?

The tl;dr is that Sorc was bad, but then they badly over-buffed it. Mainly the burst heal on Hardened Ward and the 10% max stat pool passive, combined with general defense and sustain power creep covering any other weaknesses.

Tcholl · February 13

Surgee wrote: »

Kenrixx wrote: »

No , you are right. Sorcs will still do 5k dps in regen sets on pvp )))))))

What's up with sorcs on live servers though? I haven't played for a while and returned recently. Most players I meet are sorcs. They are damn unkillable. Before I go through their shields they cast a new one without issues. They never run out of resources. Even when I'm casting ulti that gives me 100% penetration, I still can't take them down...then I get melted in a second with my 35k Res and all good gold gear that was always doing well in PvP.

I just don't get it, and I've been playing this game on and off for 10 years. I can't imagine anyone who's a non pro mathematician being able to understand the PvP in this game. That's probably why most don't play. If you get punished so bad and the game doesn't tell you what to do to fix it, you won't have a successful game. Even if you're not a pro, you should still be able to do SOMETHING. With the way the game currently works, the gap between a pro and casual is gigantic and renders a casual, or even invested player, useless.

With that said, the oversimplification of vengeance campaign is not a great solution as well. I hope they can find some middle ground.

For the record, I've been playing PvP in other mmorpgs since WoW came out. I never had such issues as in ESO when it comes to balance, and those games still allow for own sets and builds in PvP.

Sounds like you are playing DK. Unfortunately the class has no burst at the moment to kill sorcs and no tankyness to resist NBs. Also, it is very hard to mag sustain and there is no way to get huge stats like some other classes. No mobility as well and no room in the bars.

You are correct, there isn't a single good build for DKs after the nerf to corrosive and combustion, along other classes buffs.

You either play this class in a group comp or will be in a huge handicap compared to sorcs and nbs (maybe even wardens or templars on 1v1). The brawler bomber build doesn't work either, since the class burst is gone. You are better bombing with a necro nowdays.

There is no math way around this.

xylena_lazarow · February 13

Tcholl wrote: »

Sounds like you are playing DK [claims that DK is bad] There is no math way around this.

Sure there is, ever since the nerf to Vamp 3, pressure DK setups are good again, you'll want to make one based around Draugrkin or Pyrebrand. Scribing was also a huge indirect DK buff that fixed all their bar and utility problems. The other day I posted my build here on the forums, you get nearly as much damage as a dueling build, while having the AoE, speed, sustain, and cross-ally effects needed for open world or group play. Plar is its worst matchup, it eats most Sorcs and Blades.

Tcholl · February 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

Sounds like you are playing DK [claims that DK is bad] There is no math way around this.

Sure there is, ever since the nerf to Vamp 3, pressure DK setups are good again, you'll want to make one based around Draugrkin or Pyrebrand. Scribing was also a huge indirect DK buff that fixed all their bar and utility problems. The other day I posted my build here on the forums, you get nearly as much damage as a dueling build, while having the AoE, speed, sustain, and cross-ally effects needed for open world or group play. Plar is its worst matchup, it eats most Sorcs and Blades.

For sustained damage yes, but the bulk will always come from oblivion, which is not burst damage on point. Some proc sets also get me high numbers in the logs, specially on BGs, but still not burst on point. Don't get me wrong, those builds are still fun to play, specially in group enviroment, but are not on par with other classes builds out there.

Try this build in IC playing solo for example and face a NB or a Sorc. They will still have the upper hand on burst damage combo, raw stats (remember both classes receive percentage of stats for free), mobility and recover. Well, this is how I compare the actual builds anyway.

As per scribing, my honest opinion is that was really bad for pvp. Just gave more stuff for free, pressing only one button and didn't help at all with server performance. I don't see much advantage for DKs specifically in PvP, compared to other classes. I faced a brawler NB build the other day that just jumped on flags in IC and burned players in less than 3 sec. He was using tarnished, cinders and contigency, along siphoning ulti and merciless of 12k. Contigency alone did damage, immobilization or stun (not sure) and something else. You can't build this burst damage with DK and still if you try will have no resist or recover at all.

Unfortunately, at the moment, is more a class balance issue than anything related to build or skill.

Tcholl · February 13

As a side note, I have a build which is very similar to yours and a variation with shared pain to rob some kills. hehe

necro_the_crafter · February 14

Arcanist
Tentacular dread/flail could use some AoE buff from 5x15 to 7x15 at least, hard to hit players in pvp without stunning them first, it literaly goes right through your target and somehow doesnt connect.
As well as crux build-up for tentacular builds could use some adjustments. Maybe tentacular dread could add a passive bonus while slotted, something like 33% chanse to generate crux on light attacks, becuase its still looses to cepialarch flail in utility by far margin.
upd.
Or maybe slap on some passive - upon using an ultimate grant all 3 cruxes. This will enable ult -> dread bursts, as well as enchance defensive capabilities like panacea -> runeward.

Necromancer
I think GLS and gravegrasp can switch places. Sekeletal hands appering from the ground fits much more thematicly into gravelord tree, as well as its later adjustments to be a dps skill. For the other morph that is empowering graps I would like to see a single patch version that is can be ground targeted.

GLS and blastbones is, well, skeletons, that checks the "bone" in bone tyrant. Also, lets make a meaningfull sacrifice, and have our skeletal buddies absorb projectriles targeted at us at least.

Blighted blastbones - Retaliating Blastbones
Summons a skeleton that absorbs up to 1 projectile targeted at you. After absorbing projectile it launches itself into last attaker dealing desease damage in blast area. If no projectiles were absorbed it launches at the last target you attacked.

Grave lords sacrifice
Summons a skeleton that absorbs up to 3 projectiles targetet at you. After absorbing last projectile it grants you cosumed power, increasing your healing/damage done with class bilities and DoTs/HoTs by 10%.

upd.
Coprsebuster is so good, so good in fact that you cant take it off after trying it. It feels so natural on the class, makes me forget sometimes that its not a part of necro skills. I think that corpsebuster have to be somewhere in necros passives, and set should only add scaling per skill slotted and minor breach.

Major_Mangle · February 14

Tcholl wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Tcholl wrote: »

Sounds like you are playing DK [claims that DK is bad] There is no math way around this.

Sure there is, ever since the nerf to Vamp 3, pressure DK setups are good again, you'll want to make one based around Draugrkin or Pyrebrand. Scribing was also a huge indirect DK buff that fixed all their bar and utility problems. The other day I posted my build here on the forums, you get nearly as much damage as a dueling build, while having the AoE, speed, sustain, and cross-ally effects needed for open world or group play. Plar is its worst matchup, it eats most Sorcs and Blades.

For sustained damage yes, but the bulk will always come from oblivion, which is not burst damage on point. Some proc sets also get me high numbers in the logs, specially on BGs, but still not burst on point. Don't get me wrong, those builds are still fun to play, specially in group enviroment, but are not on par with other classes builds out there.

Try this build in IC playing solo for example and face a NB or a Sorc. They will still have the upper hand on burst damage combo, raw stats (remember both classes receive percentage of stats for free), mobility and recover. Well, this is how I compare the actual builds anyway.

As per scribing, my honest opinion is that was really bad for pvp. Just gave more stuff for free, pressing only one button and didn't help at all with server performance. I don't see much advantage for DKs specifically in PvP, compared to other classes. I faced a brawler NB build the other day that just jumped on flags in IC and burned players in less than 3 sec. He was using tarnished, cinders and contigency, along siphoning ulti and merciless of 12k. Contigency alone did damage, immobilization or stun (not sure) and something else. You can't build this burst damage with DK and still if you try will have no resist or recover at all.

Unfortunately, at the moment, is more a class balance issue than anything related to build or skill.

If you wanna play more of a burst setup you going to have to lean into an acuity setup. Acuity with corrosive is still a very very powerful combination, if you setup the combo with deep breath, contigency etc, it becomes a pure "stat check" for the enemy player in order to survive (since you're more or less guaranteed to land the molten whip after fossilize).

Only downside/boring part about it is that you've to wait until corrosive is back up again, but dk do have burst damage if you setup for it.

Tcholl · February 14

All corrosive builds are very boring now due to not generate ultimate and since Dk are hard to sustain atm you are exposed for large periods of time (remember combustion nerf?). Not mentioning that the whole build revolves in obtaining more ulti and you cannot generate any for 10 sec. While sorcs and nbs received stats and buffs for free, DK got corrosive hammered.

Its is worse with acuity, since you also have to align ulti and set buff, while eating range damage from other players.

I don't think this build is in a good place at all at the current meta.

xylena_lazarow · February 14

@Tcholl no disrespect intended, you have a lot of incorrect ideas about the current meta and the place of DK in it. They're solid A tier alongside Warden now, you see just as many of them in BGs. It's a good thing that do-nothing hold-block Acuity builds are no longer the strongest thing in the meta, but it's fine for attrition builds to exist and if you have the patience for it, there's a BGs DK that bursts for 30k+ on a Corrosive Acuity build, so it's still 100% doable.

Tcholl · February 14

I know you don't mean disrespect and of course I don't either. I was just trying to give my 5 cents to a post where the comment was about a build that has always worked was not working against sorcs anymore.

I never said DKs are bad or anything. What I stand by is that due to passives and some abilities, NBs and Sorcs are much easier to build now. You have damage and stats for free, along op skills.

I am also not saying that this is good or bad. My opinion is that devs already quit on pvp and the last updates show. It is the worst time I have ever played in this game. It is sad, but my honest feeling.

Again, the poster said: What's up with sorcs on live servers though? I haven't played for a while and returned recently. Most players I meet are sorcs. They are damn unkillable. Before I go through their shields they cast a new one without issues. They never run out of resources. Even when I'm casting ulti that gives me 100% penetration, I still can't take them down...then I get melted in a second with my 35k Res and all good gold gear that was always doing well in PvP.

I just don't get it, and I've been playing this game on and off for 10 years. I can't imagine anyone who's a non pro mathematician being able to understand the PvP in this game. That's probably why most don't play. If you get punished so bad and the game doesn't tell you what to do to fix it, you won't have a successful game. Even if you're not a pro, you should still be able to do SOMETHING. With the way the game currently works, the gap between a pro and casual is gigantic and renders a casual, or even invested player, useless.

ioResult · March 15

Tcholl wrote: »

I just don't get it, and I've been playing this game on and off for 10 years. I can't imagine anyone who's a non pro mathematician being able to understand the PvP in this game. That's probably why most don't play. If you get punished so bad and the game doesn't tell you what to do to fix it, you won't have a successful game. Even if you're not a pro, you should still be able to do SOMETHING. With the way the game currently works, the gap between a pro and casual is gigantic and renders a casual, or even invested player, useless.[/b][/i]

Welcome back to ESO in 2025.

Don't hold your breath waiting for ZOS to fix the PvP mess that their inexperienced "combat" developers made because all they "like to do" in Cyrodiil - by their own public admission - is to "troll" people. The developers left at ZOS don't seem to know how PvP works in the game they develop for, so they never seem to actually test or maybe they don't know how to test the changes they make in PvP. From the outside it seems no one on their staff has much interest at all in PvP or cares how the changes they make to PvE affect PvP play.

When they do "fix" PvP, my best guess is that the" solution" is going to be that for each class there will be PvE-only abilities that don't work in PvP and PvP-only abilities that only work in BGs, IC & Cyrodiil. And maybe even "if Battle Sprit is active" or "when Battle Spirit is not active" for the 5 piece line of a bunch of sets.

The bottom line in my opinion is that the ZOS devs engaged in DPS creep for years in PvE, basically doubling the DPS a single DPS toon could do in dungeons and trials from start until 2024. Go back and look at DPS build videos from 5 years ago and they are bragging about doing half the DPS that any new player who levels to 50 can do now. This overall massive increase in DPS in the game made the meta in PvP one of a ton of folks able to make builds that one shot people.

People naturally complained about being one shot in PvP but instead of tuning down DPS and adjusting boss health and damage accordingly, they went down this path of making players more tanky & even added in this silly Scribing system that can be used to give Sorcs endless shields in PvP.

So now their fundamental lack of awareness of what they've actually done to the game in PvE in terms of DPS & tankiness is what has caused this crazy tank meta in PvP. Instead of fixing it, they just nerf sets and abilities that they think don't fit right into the mess they've made of the game. Nightblade is a joke now. Necros are a joke now. Warden is the ultimate pay to win in PvP. DKs just run around trees and Leap their way to endless life. Sorc has become the carry class crutch that anyone with two thumbs can PvP on easily and think they're good.

Will it ever change? Who knows? The actual solution in my opinion is to go back to the math that was used to construct the first Trials in the game - in terms of theoretical max DPS a DD could do in a trial group and the sets & scaling used back then. Do that and then carry that math forward to all current classes, sets and abilities today. It will reduce DPS of a group considerably but then its easy to reduce the HP of bosses to balance it back out. This would turn back the clock on PvP because damage and tankiness would go back to where it was when the PvP system and mechanics were invented. I have no faith that they'll ever do this type of analysis though, which is why myself and many others have turned off our ESO Plus subscriptions after a decade and play the game super casually now.

huskandhunger · March 31

yes, the pvp combat balance is out the window and Sorcs reign supreme

I also no longer subscribe for ESO plus long-term and just only login casually from time to time, the game is not in a good spot

Instead I subscribed to Final Fantasy 14 and am now a 70+ paladin and loving pvp there, it's very rock, paper, scissors and there are no unkillable Sorcs anymore yayyy ✨ 🙌

StihlReign · April 10

Class balance is officially dead. The era of one class has begun.

Joy_Division · April 10

We'll start complaining about class lines soon enough

Tommy_The_Gun · April 10

Well... at least now, we can have more threads on forums... each skill will get its own dedicated "nerf thread"

Zallion · April 10

Get ready for the nightwarsorcdenblade and the very balanced streak merciless northernstorm combo

sweatapodimas · April 11

Well now everybody can gets streaks and sheals (shields + heals = sheals).

You get a streak, YOU get a streak, and YOU get a streak, we aaaaaalllll get streeeeeeaks!!

*my best Oprah*

katorga · April 13

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Surgee wrote: »

What's up with sorcs on live servers though?

The tl;dr is that Sorc was bad, but then they badly over-buffed it. Mainly the burst heal on Hardened Ward and the 10% max stat pool passive, combined with general defense and sustain power creep covering any other weaknesses.

shattered fate, spinners or threads of war, malacath, cp that gives pen per status effect....0 armor on all targets all the time.

Not stacking mag, so no using hardened.

NxJoeyD · May 3

I don’t know why we have players thinking that “balance” between classes has to mean that it would make them all the same.

The Devs don’t have to re-work all of the abilities on some major macro scale or destroy each classes “character” in order to create proper point / counterpoints between the classes.

Value based adjustments to existing abilities or implementing an indexing system would do it; dealers choice.

A lot of people complain about one class over another being the most OP and there’s the back & forth over the metas. There are breaks to this game but when it comes to classes; it’s the combination pairings of certain lackluster mechanics and game attributes (mitigation) that result in woeful imbalance. Add that to a laggy stacked input and abysmal target hitbox / recognition and you’re in for a grand ‘ol time.

My take on it is the Devs are seemingly so occupied with new content that they can’t be bothered with any mechanics that they can’t throw a random number generator at.

That all said; if it’s unrealistic to refine the mechanics for smoother combat then the best approach would be balance of performance adjustments to existing class abilities.

Subclassing could be a means to go in that direction but I’m not holding my breath.