DK tank build in progress

Jimbru · December 12

Many times have my guildmates called out in chat something like, "Can anyone tank? We're on the last boss and our tank bailed." Or other such situations; you know what I mean. Well, I finally got around to making a DK in the last double XP event, and now I've made a tank build for him, so I can help out when called. The target environment is PUG dungeons and normal trials, and here's what I've got so far. The skills are still in flux; I plan on leveling a bunch of skills to have alternatives. I chose the Leeching set as "default" because you just never know what the quality of healing will be in PUGs, but I could swap that out for something else in a more organized group, like Turning Tide. Thoughts on what I have so far?

Jimbru · December 12

Wow, the print in the screenshot came out tiny. My apologies. The sets are Tremorscale, Drake's Rush and Leeching. With Sugar Skulls I have roughly 43K health.

Jimbru · December 12

If you right click and open the image in a new tab, it gets bigger to read. Again, sorry about that.

code65536 · December 13

The target environment is PUG dungeons and normal trials, and here's what I've got so far.

For PUG dungeons, I feel like more people should give Warden a try.

Why do I say this? Well, DK has been synonymous with "tank" in ESO since the beginning, because back in ye olden days, other tank classes simply weren't viable. But over the years, the tanking experience on other classes have improved, and I would say that today, some are better than the DK. But that reputation of DK being "the tank class" has remained, largely due to inertia.

The DK's biggest weakness is that their self-healing as a tank is, um, terrible. Having tanked on all the classes, every class (except Templar) has an easier time self-healing than DKs. And this is a big reason for why many people over the years have suggested Leeching as a beginner tank set, as a way to cover for that weakness in the DK toolkit. But since it's from a DLC dungeon, it can be kinda tough for a beginner to collect.

Warden, on the other hand, has arguably the strongest self-heal with Polar Wind (strong burst heal plus a modest HoT) that also heals a nearby ally, which is very useful when your PUG healer is lying on the floor. Warden is, in my personal experience, the strongest PUG tank. And no Leeching required.

Aiphaton · December 13

code65536 wrote: »

The target environment is PUG dungeons and normal trials, and here's what I've got so far.

The DK's biggest weakness is that their self-healing as a tank is, um, terrible. Having tanked on all the classes, every class (except Templar) has an easier time self-healing than DKs. And this is a big reason for why many people over the years have suggested Leeching as a beginner tank set, as a way to cover for that weakness in the DK toolkit. But since it's from a DLC dungeon, it can be kinda tough for a beginner to collect.
.

I actually disagree, i have tanked most trifectas yet and never felt Dk has a lack of healing in general - i got more the feeling i dont need the healing which is implemented in the kit.
IGN Shild Spam in combination with other Shilds e.A new Scribing Skills is usually enough to survive everything.

If you wanna provide group support trough heal then definitly Dk is the wrong class.

Regarding Leeching - yeah its from a DLC dungeon but its ICP which is now 10 years old and most of the powercreep in the game made the mechanic sort of ignoreable nowdays. But if Vet is to hard you can always farm the set in Normal.

Regarding set choices:
If you have a group which doesnt deal dmg and cant heal - you need to decide if putting in the time is worth it, for myself it isnt i rather restart with another. Doesnt has to be a smooth sail, but I also dont wanna wipe constantly cause basics arent played.
If I pug a normal as tank i usually slot a taunt and stay on a Hyrbrid DPS/Tank Build.

If i join a run where the tank bailed out and im unsure about the healing output, i go to TT and Saxhleel in combination with Tremor or Bloodspawn. Since you can use tremble (from scribing for major Heroism - Drakerush is obsolet).

Also regarding your Skillchoice - i would suggest Flare over the shildskill on FB - also Ign Shild over Spiked Armor.

fred4 · December 13

This isn't a million miles away from what I like to run in vet trials. For context: I don't do hard modes, but I have pugged everything for the stickerbook, up to and including vCR+2 and vAS+2.

Tremorscale is fine, Drake's Rush is an option alongside the alternatives of Pearlescent, Lucent or Saxhleel in the same slot, e.g. as the main set. I'd probably advise dropping Leeching as soon as you get the Master's 1H+Shield. I believe the healing from the former is just not that good. Once you have the Dragonstar weapon set, this opens up the back bar for another 5-piece set, such as Crimson Oath, Powerful Assault, or Turning Tide.

That said, my favorite back bar option in a PUG, if no one coaxes me into wearing full group support gear, is to put Magma Shell on the back bar and wear 3x Blessing of Potentates (back bar) along with 1x Trainee and a mythic. I've been using the Torc of Tonal Constancy, but Death-Dealer's Fete or another mythic might also be an option. I arrived at that setup, along with using Drake's Rush, while pugging vAS+2 (but it's comfortable everywhere). What will kill you in that trial, above all else, is the lightning phase. The Potentates setup alongside Major or Minor Heroism means you will always have Magma Shell ready when the titan goes into that phase. Not only does this mean you can ignore the lightning AOE beam and moving AOEs, it means, because you're standing still, you keep the titan facing straight back at the rear wall and at the front kite at all times, so he won't accidentally spit a ground lightning AOE field sideways at a DD.

The above is an example illustrating why I think Code is wrong about DK, at least when it comes to pugging stuff, even if I understand the inertia sentiment. (EDIT: I belatedly note he specifically said "try warden for dungeon PUGs". That actually sounds fair). Magma Shell rules while you're learning, or if you want to make things easy for yourself. I haven't played warden as a tank, but I've played nightblade. The latter has ridiculous sustain and self-healing while standing still, but the mitigation is not the same, at least not out of the box. Nightblade has no class shields and lacks the "emergency ult", while DK's Hardened Armor is a decent and cheap shield that adds 12% extra healing. Cauterize heals more frequently nowadays and also heals other players. Warden may be better in these regards, but I guess I'm wondering whether Code is fully up-to-date. Perhaps, if you play at a higher level or in coordinated groups, as he probably does, you will never use Magma Shell, because you go for warhorns and the like.

Personally, I think that ult is what still sets DK apart and puts it into a league of it's own. It's how people have gone to arc 30+ in Infinite Archive. It's how some people solo tank the vDSR Reef Guardian poison spew, while standing in place and not making a mess, using Elf Bane to extend the duration to 18s. Personally I also like Magma Shell (or Barrier as a healer) while running into the bigger trash pulls in places like vLC and vRG. This allows you to not block, but move freely while range-taunting and pulling adds together.

Your skill layout looks quite similar to mine, but the devil's in the details. This is what I think:

Use Hardened Armor, not Volatile. Get the bigger shield. I like having it on the front bar, like you. It's one of the main things I spam.
Green Dragon Blood is terrible. Use Coagulating Blood.
I know that Equilibrium is something that people use and I've played enough NB tank to know the health cost isn't really an issue. On the other hand, unlike NBs Siphoning Attacks, Equlibrium does not restore stamina and, above all, it halves your shield strength and healing for 4s. I don't get it. Why would you do that to yourself? It would be no wonder if you have self-healing issues with that skill in the rotation. I also never have magicka sustain issues, so why use it at all? I use Igneous Shield instead. Yeah, it eats magicka, but it gives 1K stamina which is what you really want for blocking. Perhaps more importantly, you don't currently have an Earthen Heart skill in your build, other than Magma Shell. You also want a "regular" Eathern Heart skill to give the group your unique class buff, e.g. Minor Brutality.
I like having Unrelenting Grip on the front bar. My playstyle is to taunt with Frost Clench while running into a fight, especially a trash fight, only to soon "lock down" by blocking on the front bar, because the start of (bigger) trash pulls can be quite dangerous. At that point I start pulling in additional mobs. This means I often turn the camera away from the major mob / mini-boss I've already taunted. I have to block while casting my eye around and I'm usually on the front bar at that time. I should say that Wield Soul (scribed skill) has proven extremely good on my nightblade. While Unrelenting Grip is a great free taunt for mobs that can't be moved, Wield Soul gives you the option to restore 600 magicka and stamina, as well as giving you Major Vitality. It may actually be the better skill on DK also. At any rate, I don't find Defensive Stance is always needed. I use either a pull skill, or Defensive Stance, but not both.
I use Frost Clench as my ranged taunt. I find it has a much more positive animation than Inner Rage. I find it hard to tell whether I've taunted anything with the latter, let alone the correct target. Personal preference, I guess.
Heroic Slash. Sigh. I tried it in vAS+2 to save on expensive minor ultgen potions (not that minor ultgen was needed in the end). It's an expensive stamina skill. At the end of the day it cost too much stamina for what it does. I found it a counter-productive skill to use for that reason.
Finally I use Resolving Vigor on the back bar to help get to the resistance cap and to activate Powerful Assault, when using that set.

A note on that resistance cap (33K): You should go for it, at least on the front bar, but without counting the extra resists from Master's 1H+S. The latter should put you way over the top. This synergises with Tremorscale, because that monster set scales with your resistances. It yields ~3K penetration when you use Master's 1H+S.

Now for something else to consider: Speed and sustain. I know Harmony jewelry is quite meta. I haven't tried it, but I also haven't had to. As per the above, one of my build options includes the Torc of Tonal Constancy. When your stamina falls below 50%, because you are blocking, you gain magicka sustain. However my main sources of sustain are the Atro mundus and Red Frothgar. This limits your max mag and max stam pools, but at the end of the day I find sustain alongside cheap (magicka and block) costs more important than big stat pools (other than health). You can use Frothgar and claw back stat pools to ~20K each using tri-stat enchants, CP and judicious use of attributes. This goes along with ~40K health.

The benefit of this approach is that you're quite free with your jewelry traits and enchants. I run all Swift jewelry. I've also spoken to a tank who uses the Steed Mundus and the Wild Hunt ring instead. At any rate, do not underestimate speed in vAS, or for running after Z'Maja in vCR, or for running around Talaria in vDSR, and so on. Speed makes your life easier, even on a tank. vBRP also springs to mind. This goes along with 2x magicka recovery enchants and 1x all cost reduction (Indeko) enchant in my case. The latter is particularly efficient and also brings down the cost of Pierce Armor, which is one of your heals with Master 1H+S.

My actual skill layout, for reference:

Pierce Armor
Unrelenting Grip or Defensive Stance
Hardened Armor
Igneous Shield
Coagulating Blood
Warhorn or Barrier (the latter for +magicka regen passive)

Frost Clench
Elemental Blockade
Cauterize or Igneous Weapons
Resolving Vigor
Inner Light
Magma Shell

A magicka enchant on the shield on the front bar, and Inner Light on the back bar, gives both bars roughly the same amount of magicka. Maybe that's a bit silly, but I like balancing my resources across bars. An alternate passive skill (for either bar tbh) is Revealing Flare for the Major Protection.

code65536 · December 13

Aiphaton wrote: »

I actually disagree, i have tanked most trifectas yet and never felt Dk has a lack of healing in general - i got more the feeling i dont need the healing which is implemented in the kit.

I too have tanked every single 4-man trifecta and a number of 12-man trifectas, multiple times, on multiple classes including DK, and while DK can and will get you through all of them (it is still the most common tank class), there is no denying that other classes have a significantly easier time healing themselves.

First, trifectas aren't really worth talking about because, as a support, the better the group, the easier it is for you to do your job, and the real challenge is when you don't have a good group. If you're tanking a trifecta, you probably have a competent healer, or if you're running 3DD in 4-man content then you have enough damage that fights are trivially short and you are not really being stressed. A fight that takes a minute with a good group is much easier and less stressful than the same fight dragged out to 6 minutes in a PUG.

Second, let's walk through the DK's toolkit:

GDB: Scales off of missing health, so it can be powerful if you time it right when you are at low health and have it comboed with the mending from Igneous, but that's risky and takes skill. And if you get a heal absorb, you're out of luck because heal absorbs don't count as missing health. Dealing with the abundance of heal absorbs in recent content on a DK without healer support is brutal, compared to how much easier it is with other classes that have proper health-scaled heals.
Coag: Scales off of offensive stats, not tank stats, so it kinda sucks. But still better than the GDB morph in many scenarios (e.g., in an organized raid group with lots of offensive buffs), which goes to show how bad GDB is, that there are a significant number of tanks that prefer this "wrong morph" over GDB.
Cinder Storm: It's okay as a mild ground HoT. But it's a ground HoT and has all the limitations of a ground HoT.
Cauterize: Until very recently, didn't even heal yourself. While that glaring problem was finally fixed, there's still the problem that it scales off of the wrong stats.
Vigor: Again, scales off of offensive stats.
Igneous Shields: So the bread-and-butter of the DK defensive kit is a shield, not a heal. Granted, it's a damn good shield, but as a shield and not an actual heal, it has two critical limitations.
- First, shields are not subject to block mitigation. So it's fine for mitigating DoT damage, but for encounters where you are taking a lot of blocked damage, that lack of block mitigation means that a shield has only a fraction of the usefulness of an actual heal.
- The second limitation is that shields are useless if you are dealing with unresistable damage. For example, if you're maintanking Yaseyla HM, and you get that 10K/s unresistable DoT on you and have to leave heals to kite out a fire bomb: on classes like DK or Arcanist that rely so heavily on shields in their toolkit, you need to be extra aware and careful with this while other classes have a noticeably easier time dealing with it. (Admittedly, I think the bigger problem is the use of unresistable DoTs in the first place, but as long as these kinds of things exist, shield-based classes will be at a disadvantage relative to heal-based classes.) (And again, I'm not saying that you can't do this on a DK, but it requires more skill than if you were on another class.)

In short, DKs don't have a reliable health-scaled heal, and they instead have a health-scaled shield spammable that, well, isn't a heal and comes with all of the caveats of being a shield instead of an actual heal.

The TL;DR is that, relative to other classes, the DK self-healing toolkit is subpar. Because it is. Of course, a skilled and experienced player can and will get through all content on a DK, but that's despite this big weakness in their toolkit, not because of it, and I honestly would not recommend a DK for a beginner who's just looking to tank casually.

fred4 · December 13

One thing to add: If you only pug normal content, the above advice is not optimal. It is a mistake to think a veteran build is the best option for normal content, unless you see it as a stepping stone towards vet.

Before I graduated to vet trials, I pugged a lot of normal ones. I was big into Brawler / Tormentor builds at the time. This was when the Tormentor set could still AOE taunt. I remember doing nDSR with a Tormentor / Vicious Ophidian build. The effect of this was that you could gap close, taunt everything, then start blocking. As the group started killing mobs, VO would proc and give you stamina back from mobs you had damaged in the initial rush. Voila. Perma-block sustain. This is how you could taunt and solo tank trial-sized trash pulls without running out of stamina.

Of course they had to nerf Tormentor, so this exact build is not possible anymore. It illustrates, however, that vet strategies are not necessarily optimal for normal content. On the other hand it's true that, nowadays, arcanists do so much damage, you only realise you have a bunch of new players in the group when you fail a mechanic. Up to that point, they steamroll stuff like champions. Perhaps a regular vet-mode buff tank, wearing the usual group supports sets, is now appropriate for that reason. This wasn't always the case, however.

I used to run double 2H Brawler builds as a tank in normal and up to non-DLC vet hard mode dungeons. You can solo that content with such a build, especially with a stamsorc. A Master's 2H weapon will output tremendous AOE damage and the Brawler morph can make you very tanky. It's only the single-target / boss damage that kind of sucks when you build a tank around this philosophy, but such builds carry groups, soloing dungeons if necessary.

Couldn't tell you what I'd run nowadays. I can only encourage you to theory-craft your own off-meta (tank) builds, if you enjoy it. Good information on pugging specifically normal content is honestly hard to come by. I guess this is partly because a party of 4 endgame players will just steamroll it with 4 DDs. The issue, however, is that when you queue for a random normal, you can be caught out. The first boss trio in March of Sacrifices, for example, can kill a fake tank, even on normal mode. This is how I landed on tanky Brawler builds as one of the best compromises for queuing as a normal dungeon tank.

code65536 · December 13

fred4 wrote: »

Personally, I think that ult is what still sets DK apart and puts it into a league of it's own. It's how people have gone to arc 30+ in Infinite Archive. It's how some people solo tank the vDSR Reef Guardian poison spew, while standing in place and not making a mess, using Elf Bane to extend the duration to 18s.

So, that's the one redeeming feature of DK, and it's the reason I have always used a DK for maintanking Reef HM.

The thing about magma is that it's an ultimate, so unless you build specifically for magma spam with Elf Bane and vamp drain, if you use it to survive a mechanic, you probably won't have it up by the time that mechanic happens again. So the player is going to have to learn how to deal with that mechanic without magma, and magma, in many cases, is just a panic button for emergencies.

And, yes, I have used magma when pugging as a DK when the proverbial digestive waste matter hits the proverbial air circulation device, but in my experience, I haven't missed the lack of magma when using a class like Warden because, well, I just don't feel that kind of stress as much on a Warden. You don't have a panic button, but you're also less likely to need a panic button.

Magma is nice for recovery, though. Pop a magma to safely get a rez off. (Though a necro would be even better for that.

)

BXR_Lonestar · December 13

That is an okay setup you have, but Leeching plate is a selfish set which you shouldn't need with an organized group if you are a well built and experienced tank.

This is what I run on my DK tank, and it pretty much works in all situations (Trials or dungeons:

Monster helm: Tremorscale
5 Piece body: Turning Tide
FB weapons: Master S/B, or Vateshraan S/B (can probably replace Vateshraan with scribing ability, but I haven't scribed my tank yet)
Back bar 5 piece: Crimson Oath Rive

Back bar weapon is an infused ice staff with crusher glyph.

This setup offers your group maximum armor pen, so they can hit the armor penetration cap of 18200 with minimal investment in penetration, allowing DPS to focus purely on maximizing damage, crit chance, and crit damage.

This is a pretty standard setup unless you have access to the Lucent Echos armor for Trials. Otherwise, this is good for any trial or dungeon group.

GimpyPorcupine · December 13

Other DK heals

Burning Embers heals and procs burning which restores resources.
Flame Lash heals when targeting off-balance enemies, or those in your talons.
Inhale is a nice heal when you're surrounded.
Ferocious Leap is a reasonably cheap ultimate that gives a strong shield and restores resources via Battle Roar.

That said, I can't remember the last time I've tanked with a DK. I currently use Nightblade, Arcanist, or Necro.

El_Borracho · December 16

While I think DK is the best tank class, I do agree with @code65536 that a warden is better for dungeon tanking. The cc's are better (especially if you are using Mighty Glacier), the healing is better, and its more fun.

But that aside, that build will work for what you are intending to do. Not going to repeat what others have said, they have it locked down. What I will add is dungeons are a good place to try out non-meta tank sets. Leeching and TT are both viable. Drake's is great if your group has good DPS, as solid DPS rotations benefit most. Mighty Glacier or Battalion Defender for squishy groups. Frozen Watcher is a little silly, but fun if you are in a block-heavy dungeon. But you do not have to run the standard Pearl/Sax/Lucent, etc. combos.

Vateshran's S&B are GREAT for trash mobs. But I think you should definitely look into getting Spaulder of Ruin, if your healer does not have one.

You can also run Archdruid to get Major Vulnerability so you don't have to go with a full 5 piece set.

Hotdog_23 · December 17

code65536 wrote: »

Aiphaton wrote: »

I actually disagree, i have tanked most trifectas yet and never felt Dk has a lack of healing in general - i got more the feeling i dont need the healing which is implemented in the kit.

I too have tanked every single 4-man trifecta and a number of 12-man trifectas, multiple times, on multiple classes including DK, and while DK can and will get you through all of them (it is still the most common tank class), there is no denying that other classes have a significantly easier time healing themselves.

First, trifectas aren't really worth talking about because, as a support, the better the group, the easier it is for you to do your job, and the real challenge is when you don't have a good group. If you're tanking a trifecta, you probably have a competent healer, or if you're running 3DD in 4-man content then you have enough damage that fights are trivially short and you are not really being stressed. A fight that takes a minute with a good group is much easier and less stressful than the same fight dragged out to 6 minutes in a PUG.

Second, let's walk through the DK's toolkit:
GDB: Scales off of missing health, so it can be powerful if you time it right when you are at low health and have it comboed with the mending from Igneous, but that's risky and takes skill. And if you get a heal absorb, you're out of luck because heal absorbs don't count as missing health. Dealing with the abundance of heal absorbs in recent content on a DK without healer support is brutal, compared to how much easier it is with other classes that have proper health-scaled heals.

Coag: Scales off of offensive stats, not tank stats, so it kinda sucks. But still better than the GDB morph in many scenarios (e.g., in an organized raid group with lots of offensive buffs), which goes to show how bad GDB is, that there are a significant number of tanks that prefer this "wrong morph" over GDB.

Cinder Storm: It's okay as a mild ground HoT. But it's a ground HoT and has all the limitations of a ground HoT.

Cauterize: Until very recently, didn't even heal yourself. While that glaring problem was finally fixed, there's still the problem that it scales off of the wrong stats.

Vigor: Again, scales off of offensive stats.

Igneous Shields: So the bread-and-butter of the DK defensive kit is a shield, not a heal. Granted, it's a damn good shield, but as a shield and not an actual heal, it has two critical limitations.
First, shields are not subject to block mitigation. So it's fine for mitigating DoT damage, but for encounters where you are taking a lot of blocked damage, that lack of block mitigation means that a shield has only a fraction of the usefulness of an actual heal.

The second limitation is that shields are useless if you are dealing with unresistable damage. For example, if you're maintanking Yaseyla HM, and you get that 10K/s unresistable DoT on you and have to leave heals to kite out a fire bomb: on classes like DK or Arcanist that rely so heavily on shields in their toolkit, you need to be extra aware and careful with this while other classes have a noticeably easier time dealing with it. (Admittedly, I think the bigger problem is the use of unresistable DoTs in the first place, but as long as these kinds of things exist, shield-based classes will be at a disadvantage relative to heal-based classes.) (And again, I'm not saying that you can't do this on a DK, but it requires more skill than if you were on another class.)

In short, DKs don't have a reliable health-scaled heal, and they instead have a health-scaled shield spammable that, well, isn't a heal and comes with all of the caveats of being a shield instead of an actual heal.

The TL;DR is that, relative to other classes, the DK self-healing toolkit is subpar. Because it is. Of course, a skilled and experienced player can and will get through all content on a DK, but that's despite this big weakness in their toolkit, not because of it, and I honestly would not recommend a DK for a beginner who's just looking to tank casually.

Guess GDB needs to be buffed or changed then.

Stay safe 🙂