yup, it's super annoying.

especially since some classes get free access just for having a skill slotted on the back bar, while other classes need to use a GCD to maintain a buff.

it's really important now to get access to both buffs because there is less variety of classes in a group composition now, so you're likely to miss out on one or the other.

Fully agree, hybridization is far from complete.

It's super frustrating they never finished this. I personally think hybridization as a whole was a mistake as it effectively halved the number of unique feeling specs in the game, but at the very least you'd expect them to FINISH the system if they're set on keeping it..

StaticWave wrote: »

Or a stamsorc using SPELL crit potions because the class has Minor Prophecy.

At least on Sorc you can use blue pots and dark deal your stam back from them, I'd say other classes have it a bit worse there without access to that resource conversion.

StaticWave wrote: »

Or a stamsorc using SPELL crit potions because the class has Minor Prophecy.

glad i hate stamsorc.

I assume certain buffs are kept to certain classes to retain some amount of diversity in groups.

StaticWave wrote: »

Or a stamsorc using SPELL crit potions because the class has Minor Prophecy.

if you're running a scribing skill now you can tack major savagery on it to cover this which is nice.

I would like to see sustain become fully hybrid, while damage kept separate.

Would be nice if they just implemented different classifications with its own scalers to abilities, for example:

1. Spell - mag costing ability. Scales from spell damage and max magika. Would favour mag oriented builds
2. Skill - stam costing ability. Scales from weapon damage and max stamina. Would favour stam oriented builds
3. Universal - cost highest resourse. Scales from highest damage and max resourse. Mostly utility spells and heals.
4. Alternate - cost lowest resourse. Scales from highest damage and max resourse. Mostly utility spells and heals.
5. Apex - cost both resourse. Scales from average of both damage values and both resourses. Will be good no matter what path you choose, good for class signature abilities like Whip, Assassins Will, Deep Fissure, Blastbones, Hauntuing Curse, Puncturing Sweep, Pragmatic Fatecarver.


This, instead of previous system that had 2 specs per class, and contruary to cuurent system that has 1 bis meta setup would put all the builds on a spectrum, allowing a vast varieties of builds, and PvE and PvP group compositions.

necro_the_crafter wrote: »

I would like to see sustain become fully hybrid, while damage kept separate.

Would be nice if they just implemented different classifications with its own scalers to abilities, for example:

1. Spell - mag costing ability. Scales from spell damage and max magika. Would favour mag oriented builds
2. Skill - stam costing ability. Scales from weapon damage and max stamina. Would favour stam oriented builds
3. Universal - cost highest resourse. Scales from highest damage and max resourse. Mostly utility spells and heals.
4. Alternate - cost lowest resourse. Scales from highest damage and max resourse. Mostly utility spells and heals.
5. Apex - cost both resourse. Scales from average of both damage values and both resourses. Will be good no matter what path you choose, good for class signature abilities like Whip, Assassins Will, Deep Fissure, Blastbones, Hauntuing Curse, Puncturing Sweep, Pragmatic Fatecarver.


This, instead of previous system that had 2 specs per class, and contruary to cuurent system that has 1 bis meta setup would put all the builds on a spectrum, allowing a vast varieties of builds, and PvE and PvP group compositions.

This is literally how the game direction was going for awhile and players chose to request more hybridization over less. "Spell's" were from classes, "Skills" were from weapons, thus why weapon and spell damage were named that way. Over time, Stamina builds became more popular, but players complained they lacked any real idenity because they couldn't use their class skills resulting in about 7/10 of their non ultimate skills being exactly the same. It looked something like Volley, Poison Injection, Trap Beast, Caltrops, Twin Slashes, Steel Tornado, and a spammable.

CP 1.0 scaled heavily towards Martial or Magical damage, you couldn't do both, so even though ultimates dynamically scaled, stamina players were forced to use Ballista on back bar, then of course, you slot Dawnbreaker front bar for 3% weapon damage. At that point, 9/12 skill slots are identical no matter what class you picked. That time period was very very very very very stale. Even Magicka classes were effectively all the same for each class because they had less options too, they just weren't tied to specific weapon, guild, or world skills.

They eventually added 1 or 2 skills on each class that scaled from highest max resource, the way hybridization is today on everything. Streak for example was the only class skill a Stam Sorc could use that had decent damage, that scaled from Magicka. Everything else was useless, dealing like 1 third of what it should.

For the "Universal" and "Alternate" idea, this already exists on Arcanist, for whatever reason, they haven't even bothered testing it on other classes yet, but it would definitely free up a lot of morphs for better skill diversity. Some good examples where these could be implemented are skills like Betty Netch, Rune Focus, Flame Skull, Jabs, etc. All of these morphs have a Stamina vs Magicka option that do nearly the exact same thing. If one morph changed its cost to highest or lowest max resource, then the other morph could be changed to something completely unique.

The "Apex" idea is already in use as well for DK's Whip, again, they have yet to implement this for any other class which leads me to believe they're drawing a line in the sand to say that these rare instances are especially unique to the identity of those 2 classes. I think this is flawed logic, but thats just what it seems like they're banking on right now.

For the point about meta DPS diversity being reduced, by definition it stands for "most effective tactics available". You could add 10 unique builds to every class that the player is forced to use by introducing arbitrary barriers and players will still find the specific build that results in them getting the highest DPS possible even when the differences between them are negligible or the content they want to use it in, doesn't matter. The point is, meta is not something any game design company should chase to resolve because it's literally impossible, the best thing they can do is bring up everything else to be similar enough that people not meta chasing aren't overly punished. I'm not saying class design is perfect as I mentioned earlier in a previous comment, but reverting hybridization or introducing roadblocks like we had before will not bring back "meta dps diversity".

So in summary, no thanks to 1/2, we've moved on from that, ZOS isn't going back.

Yes please to occasionally adding 3/4/5 like Arcanist and DK have, sharing is caring.

MashmalloMan wrote: »

This is literally how the game direction was going for awhile and players chose to request more hybridization over less. "Spell's" were from classes, "Skills" were from weapons, thus why weapon and spell damage were named that way. Over time, Stamina builds became more popular, but players complained they lacked any real idenity because they couldn't use their class skills resulting in about 7/10 of their non ultimate skills being exactly the same. It looked something like Volley, Poison Injection, Trap Beast, Caltrops, Twin Slashes, Steel Tornado, and a spammable.

CP 1.0 scaled heavily towards Martial or Magical damage, you couldn't do both, so even though ultimates dynamically scaled, stamina players were forced to use Ballista on back bar, then of course, you slot Dawnbreaker front bar for 3% weapon damage. At that point, 9/12 skill slots are identical no matter what class you picked. That time period was very very very very very stale. Even Magicka classes were effectively all the same for each class because they had less options too, they just weren't tied to specific weapon, guild, or world skills.

They eventually added 1 or 2 skills on each class that scaled from highest max resource, the way hybridization is today on everything. Streak for example was the only class skill a Stam Sorc could use that had decent damage, that scaled from Magicka. Everything else was useless, dealing like 1 third of what it should.

For the "Universal" and "Alternate" idea, this already exists on Arcanist, for whatever reason, they haven't even bothered testing it on other classes yet, but it would definitely free up a lot of morphs for better skill diversity. Some good examples where these could be implemented are skills like Betty Netch, Rune Focus, Flame Skull, Jabs, etc. All of these morphs have a Stamina vs Magicka option that do nearly the exact same thing. If one morph changed its cost to highest or lowest max resource, then the other morph could be changed to something completely unique.

The "Apex" idea is already in use as well for DK's Whip, again, they have yet to implement this for any other class which leads me to believe they're drawing a line in the sand to say that these rare instances are especially unique to the identity of those 2 classes. I think this is flawed logic, but thats just what it seems like they're banking on right now.

For the point about meta DPS diversity being reduced, by definition it stands for "most effective tactics available". You could add 10 unique builds to every class that the player is forced to use by introducing arbitrary barriers and players will still find the specific build that results in them getting the highest DPS possible even when the differences between them are negligible or the content they want to use it in, doesn't matter. The point is, meta is not something any game design company should chase to resolve because it's literally impossible, the best thing they can do is bring up everything else to be similar enough that people not meta chasing aren't overly punished. I'm not saying class design is perfect as I mentioned earlier in a previous comment, but reverting hybridization or introducing roadblocks like we had before will not bring back "meta dps diversity".

So in summary, no thanks to 1/2, we've moved on from that, ZOS isn't going back.

Yes please to occasionally adding 3/4/5 like Arcanist and DK have, sharing is caring.

Yeah I know about early cp system, been playing myself since Tamriel Unlimited.
Martial vs Magical was based not only on cp choises but also for a big part on race choise. Dunmers used to have flat 9% fire damage that got changed to 7% fire 2% frost 2% lightning and then to weapon/spell damage. Altmers had 4% bonus damage to all elements. Theese were a significant boosts that made mag specs outshine stams on patches when they were on equal footing. But for the most part stam would perform batter in full pen group due to them having crit chanse and flat weapon damage modifier from medium armor as well as op, for its time, maelstorm dual wield and bow.

Also yeah, for classification that i suggested, I used stuff that is already in the game, I just want it to be applied to each and every ability. So every ability would be classified. And apllication of above mentioned classification would allow ZoS to revisit old abilities that require updates, shaking up the game a little, making more playstyles avalibale to every player, no matter the content they do. I would like also for ZoS to go as far as creating an icon/descripton of each ability class, so it would be easier for new players to understand what their ability scales with, and what resourse they should build for skillset that they want to use.

As for stam versus mag, I would like for ZoS to either finish with weapon/spell damage nonsense we have, like jewelry weapon/spell damage enchants giving both, only difference is 10 regen to mag or stam (why?). Iw would be more interesting if we instead had a enchants for a damage types, like increase weapon ad spell damage of lightning abilities by X, or poison abilities by X, etc. As we already have an elements type essense runes to craft theese enchants, we would only need potency runes that turn them into jewelry damage glyph. And its also opens a room for multi damage glyphs, that cower broader spectre of elements, but for lower amount, as well as for bleed essence rune. Minor sorcery, brutality, savagery, prophecy isnt hybridised too. Potions still providing either brutality or sorcery. I would like to see redundancy removed and other uniqe effects added in its place.
OR I want them to deconstruct this changes to damage buffs, fall back, and implement different scaling from mag and stam, weapon/spell damage once again. We are in a quite different game now, a lot of classes now have offensive/defensive stamina skills, so shouldnt be so problematic as it was back then, when classes had 1-2 stamina skills at best. Its just that in between state that causes frustration, and a desire to finally see the change no matter what direction it takes.
I believe it can work either way.

@necro_the_crafter @MincMincMinc .. I'm just replying to both at the same time.

My point was, they're not backtracking to pre-hybridization, the game is better off whether a few people on the forums disagree or not. They're moving forward. I agree on adding some unique skills like DK and Arcanist have to more skills, but I also don't want it everywhere. Not every class or skill line needs them, but some skills could definitely use it like some of the ones I listed. So many new morphs could be made instead of redundant choices.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/596681/update-33-combat-preview/p1

This best describes their design philosophy for when they hybridized skills, but sets and CP 2.0 were ongoing so it has been about 3 years now. Of note, Gilliam mentions that stats and named buffs for weapon/spell damage and weapon/spell critical chance will eventually be combined like they did for Armor and Offensive Penetration.

If I were to guess how it would look:

Power = Weapon/Spell Damage... This way the stat stands out from "Damage Done" since a combined "Damage" would look a bit too similar.

• Remove Sorcery, keep Brutality. Same way they removed Ward, but kept Resolve.

Critical Chance = Weapon/Spell Critical Chance... or if they're feeling redundant again lol... "Offensive Critical Chance"... but I guess that implies it doesn't work for healing, so maybe not. I find that wording silly either way.

• Remove Prophecy, keep Savagery. Same way they removed Facture, but kept Breach.

Once this happens, they need to make new minor class buffs because it defeats the purpose if 2 are exactly the same. I'd argue we're already at that point, but they seem to think that it's okay the way it is while we wait as they purposely didn't hybridize them when they did it for other sources.

I'm not going to find the comments, but when the enchants were changed to add 10 mag or stam recovery, it was basically done as a bandaid because they hybridized them due to a patch or 2 where all DK's ran weapon damage and all Templars ran spell damage regardless of your build type. Based on your pve comps, you had to switch your enchants to use DK's or Templars minor buff. I think they wanted to handle it later with the stat combination, but they were forced to change it early because it was causing problems. I doubt the 10 recovery thing will stay once they finish hybridization, but who knows, maybe they've come to love it, I'd prefer them to make a new enchant like penetration, crit chance, or damage done.

StaticWave wrote: »

Or a stamsorc using SPELL crit potions because the class has Minor Prophecy.

But this still is less efficient because you probably have high stamina regen on stam sorc and you don’t get the 30 percent regen buff on it. Instead you get the 30 percent on your way lower mag recovery which adds way less total recovery that way.

MincMincMinc wrote: »

@MashmalloMan

[*] Mechanic clarity..... WTF does offbalance do? Status effects? Why do I have to go to a 3rd party improperly informed website that isnt updated to try and understand what they do. Nobody has been able to explain to me how offbalance was healthier to the game than the old dizzy swing. I could rant for pages on how this was a huge step in the wrong direction.

Simple, you don't know to press F1 when you're in the game, the in game compendium/help menu is quite extensive you know.




but slight snark aside, zos REALLY should advertise this function more...

Hybridisation is itfelf questionable, and we as a player dont have any clear devs vision for it.

Right now its going on a path to combine all of damage scaling towards higher number, which is a good thing, becuase pre-hybridisation players use to chase one stat pool (mag or stam/wpn or spell), and now they dont have to worry about that.

But as a leftovers we have such a huge systems like alchemy and enchanting that are still arent fully hybrid. And while enchanting recived an update that combined wpn+spell damage, alchemy is so much more complex where every ingridient was created to combine into supporting either stam sustain + weapon damage/crit or mag sustain + spell dmg/crit. And in order to fix that they would have to come up with new effects, or maybe inroduce new stats into the game.

And for hybrid stats, I came up with a idea, what if we had more offensive stats, that would be much more narrow and specific like:

Thauamaturgy - increases DoT damage (replaces savagery or prophesy, wichever they remove);
Precision - increases Direct damage (replaces sorcery or brutality, wichever they remove);

The way i would like them implemented - that would be a stat, that would scale with your damage number. And then certain wepons or armor can interact with a scaling.

Like, lets say 1 of precision and 6000 damage is a 1% direct damage increse.
Then having same 1 with 3000 damage would be a 0.5% increase, if scaling is linear.
But in order for it to be balanced it have to scale up to a point, or basicly have a soft cap of, lets say 8000 damage, after which scaling should see a diminishing returns, and a hard cap lets say on 10000 damage after which any additional damage dosent interract with it.
And about weapons, lets say lightning staff could increase precision scaling by 20%, and returning to our first example:
1 precision and 6000 damage is now 1.2% increase of a direct damage.

Maybe it would introduce much more power creep, but if they would implement such systems cautiosly, and adjust damage itself beforehand, this would be a solution to hybridising alchemy, as well as new ways to build your charatcer (which is most fun in roleplay game for a lot of people) to fit for yours desired playstyle.