abkam wrote: »

edit:
If you’re part of any Discord, tell me this:
why do people need to send parses when they join any group? I understand that no one wants to run with someone doing only 20k DPS. But, just to be humorous, if you create a roster for, let’s say, vLC, and 9 DPS players apply with 120k DPS, but a new player with some experience joins with only a 90k parse, will you take him? No, you likely won’t… unless he’s a friend or a nice guy. But in general, no one will pick him simply because the others have higher DPS.
And yes, we’re talking about vLC, just a damn veteran trial, and the leader blocks him on Discord because his 90k DPS is lower than the 120k of the others. Yet, if the same leader runs in the Group Finder for the same trial, he would be very happy if that player with 90k DPS turns out to be the best in the group.

Veteran players don’t help anyone.
DPS sharing blocks new players from learning the game.
Logs kick experienced veteran players out of the game.

honestly, i would take someone at 60k that can survive over someone with 120k thats a floor mat, that being said i am not just going to hand over a spot to someone with low dps/cpm if they dont work hard like the rest of the team, 1 weak link can put weeks onto a prog

abkam wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

They don’t have the opportunity to progress, and at the same time, they do the same to new players by blocking them. This is all happening because of addons like Hodor Reflex and the use of logs for more serious content.

im going to be completely honest here. i have score pushed on console and now on pc im more of a casual trifecta progger. if people are saying they dont have an opportunity to progress, they are not trying.

the end game community are more open to teach than ever! so many people have left we are quite litterally begging for new meat! @sarahthes and i are both in a server that is a place to run things with pugs, sarathes just a few days ago posted about a new group they are starting. opportunity is out there! if people dont go for it they dont get it, its as simple as that.
to blame logs or hodors is quite honestly wrong. you cannot hand over a spot to say VSEhm to someone who cannot pull decent dps at least. mechanics come over time dps needs to be kept up with.

And I understand that. I really do! But will you take an experienced warden with 90k DPS in place of an experienced warden with 120k DPS? No, of course not. I wouldn’t either! And why? Both players are good, and both have experience. But, well, Hodor Reflex says to keep the 120k and reject the 90k DPS noob. Yep! You know, we’re both right!

no, im sorry but you are wrong. i have 2 people in my current PB prog that have low dps (it isnt low but compared to the others in the group, its low) but they are 2 of our best dps, they never die, they do mechanics and they never complain. to blame hodors and logs for people being left out of groups is quite honestly crazy. i could open up a random discord server right now and see atleast 10 posts for people lookin for x amount of dd's with minimum 80k which is easy to get. they might ask for logs but they arent just looking at dps. i know some people will only take 120k+ but that is just a hand full of groups, mainly the top top groups. the rest just wanna raid.

abkam wrote: »

Of course, you might help them improve with feedback, but at the end of the day, if they’re not good enough, you will reject them based on those logs. You do it, and everyone who takes serious content seriously will do the same. You ask for logs, review them, and then reject players. The objective is to create a group with the best 12 players—I completely understand that. But what happens to all the others who get rejected? They go to Craglorn or the Group Finder and run veteran trials until they get bored and leave the game. Because logs push them out of the game, and now they will exclude others from the Group Finder because they aren’t good enough.

They can join a different type of group: there isn't just score-pushers and trifecta chasers, or groups that try to optimize their configuration, there's also mid-game groups and training groups, and also casual vet raiders. These don't ask for logs or parses, so the DDs you are talking about can join one of these groups (or even form their own!) and progress from there. There's so many different guilds and discord servers out there, and the information is not gate kept, as there is also an abundance of it in websites or videos. If a group is willing to learn and improve they can figure it out on their own, that's how players have learned new content since the beginning of ESO. Also, at the end of the day, some things in the game require you to bring X skills to the table, there's mechanics, there's fights with dps checks, and so on. If someone is serious about endgame there's no shortcut to simply having to improve your own skills. And if someone cannot, then that's fine too, not everyone has to be a Mind Mender to enjoy what the game has to offer. I think focusing negatively on logs and teams that have requirements somewhat removes personal responsibility from the issue.

I’m a Day 1 player with all trifectas completed as a DPS.

As of Gold Road I rarely turn on this game anymore and have quit participating in events. I also barely care about my account due to my low interest.

Main Reasons:
• Bad performance in PvP
• Poor/unfun combat balance in all content
• Almost zero communication from the developers
• 2024 content cycle has been the worst ever in the history of this game: minimal content and the content we did get is bad, such as locked doors throughout the mini-zone of West Weald and all bosses having immunity phases to prolong fights
• Enormous focus on permanently farming dailies, and even going so far as to tie Scribe Scripts to them
• My friends and guildies are leaving the game for these same reasons, causing a domino effect in my friend groups which has evidently caught me as well

I’m still here on the Forums occasionally but not sure how much longer Ill care about this. And no this is not “doom and gloom” - my experience is not indicative of everyone’s experience. ESO needs to step it up big time though.

abkam wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

Yeah exactly. Sadly there is good reason they get excluded from runs. The majority don't listen at all. I do feel bad they get excluded but if they are causing wipes or making the content harder just by being there, it has to be done

This has nothing to do with HA builds or 2bar builds. It happens with any ranged build. HA, Bow, or Arcanist. Any new player using a ranged build will usually stay behind the healers instead of in front, because they believe it's safer. And what do experienced veteran players do? They kick them out, preventing them from learning or understanding why they need to stay closer or adjust their position. Like I said earlier: "Veteran players don’t help anyone."

i think you are maybe missing the point of what myself and a few others are saying. you are absolutely right, its not only oakensoul players but the majority of the time, its those that stand out the most.
the point that is being made ties in with a few of the reasons people in the end game trials crowd are leaving and that is the fact that even though we try to help people, they dont listen and there is no group rotation happening due to people not wanting to prog/score push any more. that plus the bad performance lately is causing more and more people to quit the game leaving trials (especially hard mode trials) lacking the numbers.

I disagree once again, because there's much more to this than we're saying. Players leave for a lot of reasons, and new players don’t get the opportunity to learn the game. Veteran players are looking for more difficult content, so they join Discord groups. Then, they find out they aren’t good enough to run with those groups, so they return to the Group Finder and block new players from joining veteran content. Because otherwise, they don’t leave the game; they stay in it.

I’m not missing the point. I understand 100% what’s wrong, and I accept it, even if others don’t. Removing DPS sharing from the game and asking ZoS to penalize players who prevent others from joining through Group Finder (like ZoS did with teabagging) would be great for the game. Veteran players will always have Discord groups for more serious content, with logs and everything. And new players will learn the game mech, no matter what build or DPS they have.

edit:
If you ask me what’s wrong with the game, my answer will be very simple: remove DPS sharing and remove logs. Why? Because if no one can see the DPS, no one will kick you out because of your build. If no one can see the logs, veteran players looking for trifecta runs will have more opportunities to complete them.

I understand how sensitive all of this is; I really do. But I also see why ZoS doesn’t give much credit when some long-time veterans leave the game—because money plays a role in this too.

If logs are removed from the game I will stop raid leading endgame content. I need to be able to diagnose issues on the fly and after the fact in order to help my groups progress.

You know what the alternative to logs is? Forcing players to record their gameplay and submit the recordings after every raid in order for their every key press to be scrutinized. That is how they monitor team member effectiveness on console, where logs don't exist. I think forcing recording is far more invasive than logs. Not to mention, the reviews are much more time consuming.

(Yes I know high level PC players also require povs as well, but it's not the norm right now.)

I understand why you need logs; I really do! You lead endgame content, and maybe you even have a Discord server or are part of one. But after you look at the logs, what do you do? You reject players who send you their logs for your evaluation, right? If that’s correct, it’s because logs only serve that purpose: to block veteran players from joining harder content.

Wrong. I use logs for 2 reasons. 1) to identify if people are ready for the level of content I want to lead; and 2) to provide feedback and fix problems with my core runs

You may think 1 means I am gatekeeping, but it does not. I run cores of multiple different levels at different times, and just because a person may not be ready for planes breaker doesn't mean they're not ready for Rockgrove HM. I will direct the right people to the content they are ready to learn. It's a stepwise process.

Of course, you might help them improve with feedback, but at the end of the day, if they’re not good enough, you will reject them based on those logs. You do it, and everyone who takes serious content seriously will do the same. You ask for logs, review them, and then reject players. The objective is to create a group with the best 12 players—I completely understand that. But what happens to all the others who get rejected? They go to Craglorn or the Group Finder and run veteran trials until they get bored and leave the game. Because logs push them out of the game, and now they will exclude others from the Group Finder because they aren’t good enough.

They should join open runs and training runs if they don't get accepted to progression groups, compare themselves to people performing better than them, get better logs, and reapply. It is a very proactive process for players who want to get into harder content.

I really understand all of this. But if you or anyone can tell me a valid reason why you need DPS sharing and logs in the Group Finder, I’d be happy to hear it.

DPS sharing requires opt in add-ons. It's not relevant.

If I log group finder runs it's to check my own performance. I don't care about other people except in progression cores I'm leading.

Players are leaving the game because there’s nothing more for them! They don’t have the opportunity to progress, and at the same time, they do the same to new players by blocking them. This is all happening because of addons like Hodor Reflex and the use of logs for more serious content.

This is completely incorrect. Hodor is used for calling/organizing ultimates and spot diagnosing problems in hard content. It is not used to gatekeep in endgame.

edit:
If you’re part of any Discord, tell me this:
why do people need to send parses when they join any group? I understand that no one wants to run with someone doing only 20k DPS. But, just to be humorous, if you create a roster for, let’s say, vLC, and 9 DPS players apply with 120k DPS, but a new player with some experience joins with only a 90k parse, will you take him? No, you likely won’t… unless he’s a friend or a nice guy. But in general, no one will pick him simply because the others have higher DPS.
And yes, we’re talking about vLC, just a damn veteran trial, and the leader blocks him on Discord because his 90k DPS is lower than the 120k of the others. Yet, if the same leader runs in the Group Finder for the same trial, he would be very happy if that player with 90k DPS turns out to be the best in the group.

I do not ask for parses for runs. I'm not sure why this is aimed at me.

The only time I have asked for parses was for a beginner core I was leading. This was so I would have an idea of what I was working with. I accepted every single player who applied, then used that initial parse to give them advice on how to improve and progress within vet content and hopefully endgame.

In the last group of people I provided this feedback to, only three listened to the advice btw. One of them is now scorepushing, one improved a lot but left the game for other reasons, and another is still progressing, just at a slower rate (and there is nothing wrong with that). The rest of them are still doing no damage and complaining about being locked out of veteran content.

Veteran players don’t help anyone.
DPS sharing blocks new players from learning the game.
Logs kick experienced veteran players out of the game.

This is patently false. Players refusing to take feedback or responsibility and accountability for their own performance is what locks people out of content.

abkam wrote: »

edit:
If you ask me what’s wrong with the game, my answer will be very simple: remove DPS sharing and remove logs. Why? Because if no one can see the DPS, no one will kick you out because of your build.

This is not true.

I play on Xbox where we don't have logs, but we do have eyes.
It's easy to see which players can play effectively and which ones are not contributing enough to the group. You don't have to see dps numbers to know that the person standing back in Narnia casting one skill every now and then and whose rotation includes a shield and/or heal isn't contributing much even if they don't die.

abkam wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

When you lose talented players, you lose more opportunities for knowledge and skills that help coming players progress through content. Make of that what you will.

I'm not sure I can agree with you on that. There's a Discord group where you can find the best players in this game. Yes, they’re all there. Yet, I’ve never, ever seen a more toxic community than that one. So, I really can't agree when you say, 'When you lose talented players, you lose opportunities for knowledge and skills that help newer players progress through content,' because they don't help anyone.

There's a lot of smaller communities that many of them are active in. That's where they benefit the community the most.

Most of the toxicity is with their peers, it's not towards newer players.

How can smaller communities help new players?
If there are only a few veteran players, they often don't have enough members to tackle more serious content. They can assist new players with normal trials or by helping defeat world bosses. However, over time, they will get tired and give up.

In a slightly larger community, newer or less experienced players might still struggle to find a spot because, let’s face it, most of experienced players prefer not to run content with "new players." And let’s not even mention new players using Oakensoul. These players often just want to learn the mechanics and understand the game while playing more safely with Oakensoul. Yet, veteran players tend to exclude them from more serious content.
They even do it just to run one veteran trial. There's no point in hiding it. Every day, you can find experienced players in group finder leading pug trials, and you’ll often see notices like: "Oakensoul = kick" or "less than 100k DPS = kick.

So, I’ll say it again: they don’t help anyone.

Players using Oakensoul builds... especially mag sorcs have no business being in a veteran trial setting because most of the time their DPS is just... terrible. If you want to do some serious content.. you have to bring your serious build. If you do not have an endgame setup.. you can always do normal trials first so that you can learn the mechanics while you're grinding gear for the next step in entering the veteran trial. You start from A and work your way to Z. you can't skip in line and expect people to be happy about it.. You owe it to your teammates to provide equal weight in terms of DPS.

Nobody is obligated to involuntarily carry a player who brings in a heavy attack Oakensoul setup in vet. Some situations require burning adds as quickly as possible to get a smooth run... can't do that when people aren't carrying their weight around.

It's sad that experienced players leave the game, no matter the causes.

Btw, I read the topic and see the oaken disturbs players way more than the game perfomance and vet tanking

JonesFPS wrote: »

Im not calling anyone names but content creators like Xynode/TheTankClub for example have a lot of misinformation in their guides so i would not recommend them. Not saying that their content has no value, which it probably has for some folks.

these are the ones I was referencing in one of my first comments, I wasn't sure if I was allowed to name drop haha