3 Endgame Tanks Left Last Week

JonesFPS

abkam wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

When you lose talented players, you lose more opportunities for knowledge and skills that help coming players progress through content. Make of that what you will.

I'm not sure I can agree with you on that. There's a Discord group where you can find the best players in this game. Yes, they’re all there. Yet, I’ve never, ever seen a more toxic community than that one. So, I really can't agree when you say, 'When you lose talented players, you lose opportunities for knowledge and skills that help newer players progress through content,' because they don't help anyone.

There's a lot of smaller communities that many of them are active in. That's where they benefit the community the most.

Most of the toxicity is with their peers, it's not towards newer players.

How can smaller communities help new players?
If there are only a few veteran players, they often don't have enough members to tackle more serious content. They can assist new players with normal trials or by helping defeat world bosses. However, over time, they will get tired and give up.

In a slightly larger community, newer or less experienced players might still struggle to find a spot because, let’s face it, most of experienced players prefer not to run content with "new players." And let’s not even mention new players using Oakensoul. These players often just want to learn the mechanics and understand the game while playing more safely with Oakensoul. Yet, veteran players tend to exclude them from more serious content.
They even do it just to run one veteran trial. There's no point in hiding it. Every day, you can find experienced players in group finder leading pug trials, and you’ll often see notices like: "Oakensoul = kick" or "less than 100k DPS = kick.

So, I’ll say it again: they don’t help anyone.

Mechanics can be learned without Oakensoul, the earlier you do the better. If you learn them with Oakensoul you might know mechanics but you'll miss the routine of you 2 bar rotation, so you basically have to learn the trial again in parts. And if certain requirements are communicated beforehand for certain content, its not toxic you just dont like their decision and thats different. Also in some content Oakensoal can cause a wipe (Cloudrest). If you want to have access to certain conten , you have to, in some part adjust to said content or if you dont want to bite the apple.
There is toxic behaviour out there for sure, but the more experienced and knowledgable a player is the interaction was less toxic at least in my experience.

"They dont help anyone" sure so what about NinjaPulls/Hyperioxes/SkinnyCheeks or back then Nefas/Asian God and many many more ? Without there knowledge which they shared for everyone accesible ?
It seems you just dont like the data they present.

NotNi.ya

abkam wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

When you lose talented players, you lose more opportunities for knowledge and skills that help coming players progress through content. Make of that what you will.

I'm not sure I can agree with you on that. There's a Discord group where you can find the best players in this game. Yes, they’re all there. Yet, I’ve never, ever seen a more toxic community than that one. So, I really can't agree when you say, 'When you lose talented players, you lose opportunities for knowledge and skills that help newer players progress through content,' because they don't help anyone.

There's a lot of smaller communities that many of them are active in. That's where they benefit the community the most.

Most of the toxicity is with their peers, it's not towards newer players.

How can smaller communities help new players?
If there are only a few veteran players, they often don't have enough members to tackle more serious content. They can assist new players with normal trials or by helping defeat world bosses. However, over time, they will get tired and give up.

In a slightly larger community, newer or less experienced players might still struggle to find a spot because, let’s face it, most of experienced players prefer not to run content with "new players." And let’s not even mention new players using Oakensoul. These players often just want to learn the mechanics and understand the game while playing more safely with Oakensoul. Yet, veteran players tend to exclude them from more serious content.
They even do it just to run one veteran trial. There's no point in hiding it. Every day, you can find experienced players in group finder leading pug trials, and you’ll often see notices like: "Oakensoul = kick" or "less than 100k DPS = kick.

So, I’ll say it again: they don’t help anyone.

im going to be honest and hopefully it doesnt come across as harsh. people who use oakensoul typically dont do mechanics and stand infront of healers. some times in trials where healers are needed to kite, they get pushed too far back by these players to actually heal people (usually tanks) i wish people wouldnt use oakensoul to learn mechanics purely because in my personal experience, they never actually do them. i have spent so many hours trying to help newer players learn mechanics in trials but either they dont listen to the help being given or they read an online guide (i dont think i can put the creators name right?) thats quite honestly badly written, then just argue.

NotNi.ya

just to add on to my previous comment (edit button was crashing my page )

i stopped helping newer players recently because of the amount of time it takes to get through one boss with heavy attacks only.

dont get me wrong oaken is great for those who need it but personally i dont like it. id rather have 8 arc dd than one singular oaken user.

ive put so many hours into getting trifectas and learning every mechanic in every trial ive raid lead groups for years and tried my hardest to help people get skins/titles/achievements, trying to help pugs get through a singular instance without having to repeat the same mechanic call out 70 times and tell oaken users (not always oaken users) to move closer to group and stop pushing healers too far out, really takes its toll on a persons sanity

abkam

JonesFPS wrote: »

Mechanics can be learned without Oakensoul, the earlier you do the better. If you learn them with Oakensoul you might know mechanics but you'll miss the routine of you 2 bar rotation, so you basically have to learn the trial again in parts. And if certain requirements are communicated beforehand for certain content, its not toxic you just dont like their decision and thats different. Also in some content Oakensoal can cause a wipe (Cloudrest). If you want to have access to certain conten , you have to, in some part adjust to said content or if you dont want to bite the apple.
There is toxic behaviour out there for sure, but the more experienced and knowledgable a player is the interaction was less toxic at least in my experience.

"They dont help anyone" sure so what about NinjaPulls/Hyperioxes/SkinnyCheeks or back then Nefas/Asian God and many many more ? Without there knowledge which they shared for everyone accesible ?
It seems you just dont like the data they present.

We're talking about 'new players,' right? You can do more DPS with two bars, but using two bars doesn’t help you learn mechanics. In fact, it slows you down quite a bit. Why? Because new players have to focus on mechanics, positioning, bar swapping, skills, synergies, etc., only to realize their DPS was 10k. Oakensoul lets them focus on learning the mechanics while still contributing more DPS and playing better overall.
But I'm not saying you should use one bar or two bars. What I’m saying is, if new players join your group with two bars and only 10k DPS, next time, you probably won’t allow them to join again, even for something like vDSR. The day I see Oakensoul users being welcomed into any group content through group finder, I’ll change my mind. Until then, as long as veteran players are excluding others based solely on their build, I stand by my opinion: they aren’t helping anyone.


Players like NinjaPulls, SkinnyCheeks, Xynode, and others are the ones truly helping new players by offering 1bar or 2bar builds. They care about the game, not about which build you use. I’m referring to veteran players who, more than they should, attack YouTubers just because they try to help new players. If it weren’t against the CoC, I’d share the name of a YouTuber Channel who helps new players with 1bar build, but he gets a ton of toxic comments from veteran players on his channel.

NotNi.ya

abkam wrote: »

I’m referring to veteran players who, more than they should, attack YouTubers just because they try to help new players. If it weren’t against the CoC, I’d share the name of a YouTuber Channel who helps new players with 1bar build, but he gets a ton of toxic comments from veteran players on his channel.

just want to chime in on this bit.

id never attack a content creator for content they put out BUT content creators have to be mindful about their content and advice. the creator i was referencing in my comment. doesnt actually have trifectas but uses friends vods/gameplay and narrates over it, which would be fine, but the information is wrong. newer players get hold of that advice and its harder for us "veteran players" to help them do it the way its supposed to be done and get clears.

there is only so much "veteran players" can do when creators are passing out incorrect information and strats

AnduinTryggva

NotNi.ya wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

I’m referring to veteran players who, more than they should, attack YouTubers just because they try to help new players. If it weren’t against the CoC, I’d share the name of a YouTuber Channel who helps new players with 1bar build, but he gets a ton of toxic comments from veteran players on his channel.

just want to chime in on this bit.

id never attack a content creator for content they put out BUT content creators have to be mindful about their content and advice. the creator i was referencing in my comment. doesnt actually have trifectas but uses friends vods/gameplay and narrates over it, which would be fine, but the information is wrong. newer players get hold of that advice and its harder for us "veteran players" to help them do it the way its supposed to be done and get clears.

there is only so much "veteran players" can do when creators are passing out incorrect information and strats

I would by far not consider myself an endgamer. I am in a vet trial group and run vet content and while by dps is ok-ish but not top tier in my raid group I don't know if maybe I miss something.

What I however would say is that in most cases I do the mechanics well even if I sometimes fail with the right timing (sometimes due to lag issues though).

My impression is from my runs with my trial group and the many many pugs that I ran with: There are often several ways to tackle a trial/trial boss. And it depends on many things. Some tanks like to have things stacked so the group can burn them down. Others prefer it differently. My feeling is that it depens a lot on the group setup and the experience of group. If your group has a lot of aoe damage and knows the good timing when to throw aoe and their ults a tank that stacks will be awesome. However, I have seens pugs where this approach failed miserably because simply the pug was too diverse and struggled on a general note. Not stacking here too much helped to put down the boss in fact.

What I really can highlight and chime in: Learn the mechanics, irrespective of your role. It is key. THE key.

sarahthes

abkam wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

When you lose talented players, you lose more opportunities for knowledge and skills that help coming players progress through content. Make of that what you will.

I'm not sure I can agree with you on that. There's a Discord group where you can find the best players in this game. Yes, they’re all there. Yet, I’ve never, ever seen a more toxic community than that one. So, I really can't agree when you say, 'When you lose talented players, you lose opportunities for knowledge and skills that help newer players progress through content,' because they don't help anyone.

There's a lot of smaller communities that many of them are active in. That's where they benefit the community the most.

Most of the toxicity is with their peers, it's not towards newer players.

How can smaller communities help new players?
If there are only a few veteran players, they often don't have enough members to tackle more serious content. They can assist new players with normal trials or by helping defeat world bosses. However, over time, they will get tired and give up.

In a slightly larger community, newer or less experienced players might still struggle to find a spot because, let’s face it, most of experienced players prefer not to run content with "new players." And let’s not even mention new players using Oakensoul. These players often just want to learn the mechanics and understand the game while playing more safely with Oakensoul. Yet, veteran players tend to exclude them from more serious content.
They even do it just to run one veteran trial. There's no point in hiding it. Every day, you can find experienced players in group finder leading pug trials, and you’ll often see notices like: "Oakensoul = kick" or "less than 100k DPS = kick.

So, I’ll say it again: they don’t help anyone.

Those aren't endgamers. In fact, those types of players are exactly the beginner ones that I'm referring to, who only learned from each other and don't really understand the game, but put up artificial barriers to try to get carried to a clear.

I've rarely led group finder runs and I don't think I've kicked a single person. I've been kicked for making suggestions about how to do things more effectively though (simple things like, "can the dds kill the abominations rather than running behind the healers to solo archers, get cursed, and then come back into group to bomb")

Soarora

NotNi.ya wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

When you lose talented players, you lose more opportunities for knowledge and skills that help coming players progress through content. Make of that what you will.

I'm not sure I can agree with you on that. There's a Discord group where you can find the best players in this game. Yes, they’re all there. Yet, I’ve never, ever seen a more toxic community than that one. So, I really can't agree when you say, 'When you lose talented players, you lose opportunities for knowledge and skills that help newer players progress through content,' because they don't help anyone.

There's a lot of smaller communities that many of them are active in. That's where they benefit the community the most.

Most of the toxicity is with their peers, it's not towards newer players.

How can smaller communities help new players?
If there are only a few veteran players, they often don't have enough members to tackle more serious content. They can assist new players with normal trials or by helping defeat world bosses. However, over time, they will get tired and give up.

In a slightly larger community, newer or less experienced players might still struggle to find a spot because, let’s face it, most of experienced players prefer not to run content with "new players." And let’s not even mention new players using Oakensoul. These players often just want to learn the mechanics and understand the game while playing more safely with Oakensoul. Yet, veteran players tend to exclude them from more serious content.
They even do it just to run one veteran trial. There's no point in hiding it. Every day, you can find experienced players in group finder leading pug trials, and you’ll often see notices like: "Oakensoul = kick" or "less than 100k DPS = kick.

So, I’ll say it again: they don’t help anyone.

im going to be honest and hopefully it doesnt come across as harsh. people who use oakensoul typically dont do mechanics and stand infront of healers. some times in trials where healers are needed to kite, they get pushed too far back by these players to actually heal people (usually tanks) i wish people wouldnt use oakensoul to learn mechanics purely because in my personal experience, they never actually do them. i have spent so many hours trying to help newer players learn mechanics in trials but either they dont listen to the help being given or they read an online guide (i dont think i can put the creators name right?) thats quite honestly badly written, then just argue.

This is why. A lot of endgamers actually supported the accessibility of oakensoul, but the reason that oakensoul is banned by some people (excluding cloudrest, which bans for mechanic reason) is because they kept getting burned by oakensoul users who refuse advice and believe damage doesn’t matter and also yes, HA builds tend to stand behind the healer even when they’re told to stack.
There’s more to the game than vet dungeons and trials. You can learn mechanics in normal. You can learn to DPS on a trial dummy. You don’t need to learn your rotation and learn mechanics at the same time. Get the build down before you do the content. I spent plenty time training on the trial dummy.

abkam

I'm a healer too, and I often see new players, no matter what build they’re using, staying behind the healer or tanks. New players don’t understand why they need to stay in front to receive buffs. But, this has nothing to do with whether they’re using a 1bar or 2bar build. it's simply because they’re new and don’t understand it.

Jaimeh

Soarora wrote: »

This is why. A lot of endgamers actually supported the accessibility of oakensoul, but the reason that oakensoul is banned by some people (excluding cloudrest, which bans for mechanic reason) is because they kept getting burned by oakensoul users who refuse advice and believe damage doesn’t matter and also yes, HA builds tend to stand behind the healer even when they’re told to stack.

I agree and this has been my experience as well: when I'm on a support role, without fail, the player who is positioned all the way across the room, who keeps standing inside the AoEs, who pulls the next pack, has a HA build. And it's not new players either, like someone else said. It's because this build is very forgiving that players won't learn to have raid awareness.

NotNi.ya

Yeah exactly. Sadly there is good reason they get excluded from runs. The majority don't listen at all. I do feel bad they get excluded but if they are causing wipes or making the content harder just by being there, it has to be done

sarahthes

NotNi.ya wrote: »

Yeah exactly. Sadly there is good reason they get excluded from runs. The majority don't listen at all. I do feel bad they get excluded but if they are causing wipes or making the content harder just by being there, it has to be done

My favourite was the oakensoul "healer" who had 90K health and whose sole heal was hitting the flappy bird button a few times in vet Rockgrove, in between heavy attacks. They did stand out in Narnia and die to curse on cooldown though, so at least their issue was mitigated somewhat.

MorganaLaVey

Mechanics are not just "What does the boss do ?".
It's also:
- How to keepup your rotation while playing mechanics
- Skillpriotity: Which are the importent skills i need to keep up when i cant keep them all up
- Which AOE DOT's do i need to put on the add's to kill them slowly while focusing the boss
- Which skills to use to kill high priority enemys asap
- Where to place AOE's to hit maximum targets
- How to time your ult
- Resource management
- survivability
- etc.etc.

You dont learn those things with a HA build if you dont want to keep using it.
And i honestly dont think boss mechanics by themselfs are so complex you need a special training-wheels build to not get overwhelmed.
Before oaken was a thing it never was a problem. Not as far as i know...

NotNi.ya

sarahthes wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

Yeah exactly. Sadly there is good reason they get excluded from runs. The majority don't listen at all. I do feel bad they get excluded but if they are causing wipes or making the content harder just by being there, it has to be done

My favourite was the oakensoul "healer" who had 90K health and whose sole heal was hitting the flappy bird button a few times in vet Rockgrove, in between heavy attacks. They did stand out in Narnia and die to curse on cooldown though, so at least their issue was mitigated somewhat.

I have quite a few stories of oakensoul adventures. Let's just say there is a reason I'm not too fond of it haha.

To the original point of this post I can see why the tanks left, alot of people in the end game trials community have at least cut down the time they play eso if not all together quit entirely. Sadly the performance and expectations that are placed on the vet players sometimes is too much.

We have gone through stages of trying to help and being called toxic elitists for trying to teach mechs all the way to being called out for not helping at all.

I hope these tanks come back after a break. Good tanks are hard to get and keep hold of.

abkam

NotNi.ya wrote: »

Yeah exactly. Sadly there is good reason they get excluded from runs. The majority don't listen at all. I do feel bad they get excluded but if they are causing wipes or making the content harder just by being there, it has to be done

This has nothing to do with HA builds or 2bar builds. It happens with any ranged build. HA, Bow, or Arcanist. Any new player using a ranged build will usually stay behind the healers instead of in front, because they believe it's safer. And what do experienced veteran players do? They kick them out, preventing them from learning or understanding why they need to stay closer or adjust their position. Like I said earlier: "Veteran players don’t help anyone."

sarahthes

NotNi.ya wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

Yeah exactly. Sadly there is good reason they get excluded from runs. The majority don't listen at all. I do feel bad they get excluded but if they are causing wipes or making the content harder just by being there, it has to be done

My favourite was the oakensoul "healer" who had 90K health and whose sole heal was hitting the flappy bird button a few times in vet Rockgrove, in between heavy attacks. They did stand out in Narnia and die to curse on cooldown though, so at least their issue was mitigated somewhat.

I have quite a few stories of oakensoul adventures. Let's just say there is a reason I'm not too fond of it haha.

To the original point of this post I can see why the tanks left, alot of people in the end game trials community have at least cut down the time they play eso if not all together quit entirely. Sadly the performance and expectations that are placed on the vet players sometimes is too much.

We have gone through stages of trying to help and being called toxic elitists for trying to teach mechs all the way to being called out for not helping at all.

I hope these tanks come back after a break. Good tanks are hard to get and keep hold of.

Very true. I will add also - the best way to become an endgame tank or healer is to get into endgame as a DPS, and then when your friends host a training run at some point, sign up as tank or healer. The reason I say this is because learning mechs while doing damage is a lot easier than learning on the other 2 roles. Additionally, there are a lot more dps spots available in a given trial.

Typically, it's really hard to break into endgame as someone who can only play one role (or class). Flexibility is a huge asset.

NotNi.ya

sarahthes wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

sarahthes wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

Yeah exactly. Sadly there is good reason they get excluded from runs. The majority don't listen at all. I do feel bad they get excluded but if they are causing wipes or making the content harder just by being there, it has to be done

My favourite was the oakensoul "healer" who had 90K health and whose sole heal was hitting the flappy bird button a few times in vet Rockgrove, in between heavy attacks. They did stand out in Narnia and die to curse on cooldown though, so at least their issue was mitigated somewhat.

I have quite a few stories of oakensoul adventures. Let's just say there is a reason I'm not too fond of it haha.

To the original point of this post I can see why the tanks left, alot of people in the end game trials community have at least cut down the time they play eso if not all together quit entirely. Sadly the performance and expectations that are placed on the vet players sometimes is too much.

We have gone through stages of trying to help and being called toxic elitists for trying to teach mechs all the way to being called out for not helping at all.

I hope these tanks come back after a break. Good tanks are hard to get and keep hold of.

Very true. I will add also - the best way to become an endgame tank or healer is to get into endgame as a DPS, and then when your friends host a training run at some point, sign up as tank or healer. The reason I say this is because learning mechs while doing damage is a lot easier than learning on the other 2 roles. Additionally, there are a lot more dps spots available in a given trial.

Typically, it's really hard to break into endgame as someone who can only play one role (or class). Flexibility is a huge asset.

absolutely!! i was a mag blade dps back in the day, got asked to fill a healer spot and never escaped heal jail haha

NotNi.ya

abkam wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

Yeah exactly. Sadly there is good reason they get excluded from runs. The majority don't listen at all. I do feel bad they get excluded but if they are causing wipes or making the content harder just by being there, it has to be done

This has nothing to do with HA builds or 2bar builds. It happens with any ranged build. HA, Bow, or Arcanist. Any new player using a ranged build will usually stay behind the healers instead of in front, because they believe it's safer. And what do experienced veteran players do? They kick them out, preventing them from learning or understanding why they need to stay closer or adjust their position. Like I said earlier: "Veteran players don’t help anyone."

i think you are maybe missing the point of what myself and a few others are saying. you are absolutely right, its not only oakensoul players but the majority of the time, its those that stand out the most.
the point that is being made ties in with a few of the reasons people in the end game trials crowd are leaving and that is the fact that even though we try to help people, they dont listen and there is no group rotation happening due to people not wanting to prog/score push any more. that plus the bad performance lately is causing more and more people to quit the game leaving trials (especially hard mode trials) lacking the numbers.

abkam

NotNi.ya wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

Yeah exactly. Sadly there is good reason they get excluded from runs. The majority don't listen at all. I do feel bad they get excluded but if they are causing wipes or making the content harder just by being there, it has to be done

This has nothing to do with HA builds or 2bar builds. It happens with any ranged build. HA, Bow, or Arcanist. Any new player using a ranged build will usually stay behind the healers instead of in front, because they believe it's safer. And what do experienced veteran players do? They kick them out, preventing them from learning or understanding why they need to stay closer or adjust their position. Like I said earlier: "Veteran players don’t help anyone."

i think you are maybe missing the point of what myself and a few others are saying. you are absolutely right, its not only oakensoul players but the majority of the time, its those that stand out the most.
the point that is being made ties in with a few of the reasons people in the end game trials crowd are leaving and that is the fact that even though we try to help people, they dont listen and there is no group rotation happening due to people not wanting to prog/score push any more. that plus the bad performance lately is causing more and more people to quit the game leaving trials (especially hard mode trials) lacking the numbers.

I disagree once again, because there's much more to this than we're saying. Players leave for a lot of reasons, and new players don’t get the opportunity to learn the game. Veteran players are looking for more difficult content, so they join Discord groups. Then, they find out they aren’t good enough to run with those groups, so they return to the Group Finder and block new players from joining veteran content. Because otherwise, they don’t leave the game; they stay in it.

I’m not missing the point. I understand 100% what’s wrong, and I accept it, even if others don’t. Removing DPS sharing from the game and asking ZoS to penalize players who prevent others from joining through Group Finder (like ZoS did with teabagging) would be great for the game. Veteran players will always have Discord groups for more serious content, with logs and everything. And new players will learn the game mech, no matter what build or DPS they have.

edit:
If you ask me what’s wrong with the game, my answer will be very simple: remove DPS sharing and remove logs. Why? Because if no one can see the DPS, no one will kick you out because of your build. If no one can see the logs, veteran players looking for trifecta runs will have more opportunities to complete them.

I understand how sensitive all of this is; I really do. But I also see why ZoS doesn’t give much credit when some long-time veterans leave the game—because money plays a role in this too.

NotNi.ya

from my experience in end game groups its just what I've seen and the messages ive been sent from people in my groups quitting.

in the case of score pushing/prog groups dps need to be on top, you cant have 1 dps pulling 120k and another pulling 35k in the same group. its simply not going to work.

as for the people being prevented from joining through group finder. what i said earlier stands. oaken has really put a bad taste in peoples mouth. there is a reason they get excluded. as sad as it is, if people genuinely want to get into runs and start doing trials then working on their dps and maybe dropping oaken would be a good start.

NotNi.ya

abkam wrote: »

If you ask me what’s wrong with the game, my answer will be very simple: remove DPS sharing and remove logs. Why? Because if no one can see the DPS, no one will kick you out because of your build. If no one can see the logs, veteran players looking for trifecta runs will have more opportunities to complete them.

I understand how sensitive all of this is; I really do. But I also see why ZoS doesn’t give much credit when some long-time veterans leave the game—because money plays a role in this too.

dps sharing and logs should absolutely stay in the game. people should work on their dps to get things done. you dont have to look at dps share/logs to see the people who perform either badly or see what gear they are in. the lightning staff gives that one away.

abkam

NotNi.ya wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

If you ask me what’s wrong with the game, my answer will be very simple: remove DPS sharing and remove logs. Why? Because if no one can see the DPS, no one will kick you out because of your build. If no one can see the logs, veteran players looking for trifecta runs will have more opportunities to complete them.

I understand how sensitive all of this is; I really do. But I also see why ZoS doesn’t give much credit when some long-time veterans leave the game—because money plays a role in this too.

dps sharing and logs should absolutely stay in the game. people should work on their dps to get things done. you dont have to look at dps share/logs to see the people who perform either badly or see what gear they are in.

the lightning staff gives that one away.

I couldn't agree more. Let’s hope ZoS removes them! Otherwise, well... nothing will change, and ESO will be the same as it always has been. Some players will join, while others will leave the game.

sarahthes

abkam wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

Yeah exactly. Sadly there is good reason they get excluded from runs. The majority don't listen at all. I do feel bad they get excluded but if they are causing wipes or making the content harder just by being there, it has to be done

This has nothing to do with HA builds or 2bar builds. It happens with any ranged build. HA, Bow, or Arcanist. Any new player using a ranged build will usually stay behind the healers instead of in front, because they believe it's safer. And what do experienced veteran players do? They kick them out, preventing them from learning or understanding why they need to stay closer or adjust their position. Like I said earlier: "Veteran players don’t help anyone."

i think you are maybe missing the point of what myself and a few others are saying. you are absolutely right, its not only oakensoul players but the majority of the time, its those that stand out the most.
the point that is being made ties in with a few of the reasons people in the end game trials crowd are leaving and that is the fact that even though we try to help people, they dont listen and there is no group rotation happening due to people not wanting to prog/score push any more. that plus the bad performance lately is causing more and more people to quit the game leaving trials (especially hard mode trials) lacking the numbers.

I disagree once again, because there's much more to this than we're saying. Players leave for a lot of reasons, and new players don’t get the opportunity to learn the game. Veteran players are looking for more difficult content, so they join Discord groups. Then, they find out they aren’t good enough to run with those groups, so they return to the Group Finder and block new players from joining veteran content. Because otherwise, they don’t leave the game; they stay in it.

I’m not missing the point. I understand 100% what’s wrong, and I accept it, even if others don’t. Removing DPS sharing from the game and asking ZoS to penalize players who prevent others from joining through Group Finder (like ZoS did with teabagging) would be great for the game. Veteran players will always have Discord groups for more serious content, with logs and everything. And new players will learn the game mech, no matter what build or DPS they have.

edit:
If you ask me what’s wrong with the game, my answer will be very simple: remove DPS sharing and remove logs. Why? Because if no one can see the DPS, no one will kick you out because of your build. If no one can see the logs, veteran players looking for trifecta runs will have more opportunities to complete them.

I understand how sensitive all of this is; I really do. But I also see why ZoS doesn’t give much credit when some long-time veterans leave the game—because money plays a role in this too.

If logs are removed from the game I will stop raid leading endgame content. I need to be able to diagnose issues on the fly and after the fact in order to help my groups progress.

You know what the alternative to logs is? Forcing players to record their gameplay and submit the recordings after every raid in order for their every key press to be scrutinized. That is how they monitor team member effectiveness on console, where logs don't exist. I think forcing recording is far more invasive than logs. Not to mention, the reviews are much more time consuming.

(Yes I know high level PC players also require povs as well, but it's not the norm right now.)

NotNi.ya

sarahthes wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

Yeah exactly. Sadly there is good reason they get excluded from runs. The majority don't listen at all. I do feel bad they get excluded but if they are causing wipes or making the content harder just by being there, it has to be done

This has nothing to do with HA builds or 2bar builds. It happens with any ranged build. HA, Bow, or Arcanist. Any new player using a ranged build will usually stay behind the healers instead of in front, because they believe it's safer. And what do experienced veteran players do? They kick them out, preventing them from learning or understanding why they need to stay closer or adjust their position. Like I said earlier: "Veteran players don’t help anyone."

i think you are maybe missing the point of what myself and a few others are saying. you are absolutely right, its not only oakensoul players but the majority of the time, its those that stand out the most.
the point that is being made ties in with a few of the reasons people in the end game trials crowd are leaving and that is the fact that even though we try to help people, they dont listen and there is no group rotation happening due to people not wanting to prog/score push any more. that plus the bad performance lately is causing more and more people to quit the game leaving trials (especially hard mode trials) lacking the numbers.

I disagree once again, because there's much more to this than we're saying. Players leave for a lot of reasons, and new players don’t get the opportunity to learn the game. Veteran players are looking for more difficult content, so they join Discord groups. Then, they find out they aren’t good enough to run with those groups, so they return to the Group Finder and block new players from joining veteran content. Because otherwise, they don’t leave the game; they stay in it.

I’m not missing the point. I understand 100% what’s wrong, and I accept it, even if others don’t. Removing DPS sharing from the game and asking ZoS to penalize players who prevent others from joining through Group Finder (like ZoS did with teabagging) would be great for the game. Veteran players will always have Discord groups for more serious content, with logs and everything. And new players will learn the game mech, no matter what build or DPS they have.

edit:
If you ask me what’s wrong with the game, my answer will be very simple: remove DPS sharing and remove logs. Why? Because if no one can see the DPS, no one will kick you out because of your build. If no one can see the logs, veteran players looking for trifecta runs will have more opportunities to complete them.

I understand how sensitive all of this is; I really do. But I also see why ZoS doesn’t give much credit when some long-time veterans leave the game—because money plays a role in this too.

If logs are removed from the game I will stop raid leading endgame content. I need to be able to diagnose issues on the fly and after the fact in order to help my groups progress.

You know what the alternative to logs is? Forcing players to record their gameplay and submit the recordings after every raid in order for their every key press to be scrutinized. That is how they monitor team member effectiveness on console, where logs don't exist. I think forcing recording is far more invasive than logs. Not to mention, the reviews are much more time consuming.

(Yes I know high level PC players also require povs as well, but it's not the norm right now.)

when i was on console i did make people send povs in, on pc i probably wouldnt lol

Soarora

abkam wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

Yeah exactly. Sadly there is good reason they get excluded from runs. The majority don't listen at all. I do feel bad they get excluded but if they are causing wipes or making the content harder just by being there, it has to be done

This has nothing to do with HA builds or 2bar builds. It happens with any ranged build. HA, Bow, or Arcanist. Any new player using a ranged build will usually stay behind the healers instead of in front, because they believe it's safer. And what do experienced veteran players do? They kick them out, preventing them from learning or understanding why they need to stay closer or adjust their position. Like I said earlier: "Veteran players don’t help anyone."

It's not like people get immediately kicked by everyone for doing one thing wrong. They may be kicked by some people. They may be explained to and kicked if they don't listen by others. They may be carried by the rest. You're acting as if endgamers are a monolith. Most endgamers try to help people, but the problem is a lot of people don't want help. I love helping people but I'm not gonna spend time giving advice when they're not gonna listen at all. I don't know who's being referred to in the original post, they could have been members who run training runs and teach people intricacies of their roles or they could have been people who just run high end content and never try to help people.

Pevey

There are several guilds on PCNA that do (or used to do--things are slow right now) vet training runs. To be successful, these are led by people who (1) have cleared the content many times, (2) know the mechanics well enough for ALL roles, (3) have the social/leadership skills to lead the trial and explain mechs clearly, (4) have the time to be able to schedule 2 hour runs on a semi-regular basis, (5) have the patience of a saint and a cool head, and (6) have the rare quality of being WILLING to do this with their time when they could be doing other things and the run may well end up without a clear and even if it does clear, they have long since filled their stickerbooks and have zero incentive other than the reward of helping other people learn.

No, these people are not super numerous for obvious reasons. But they do exist, and that is pretty amazing. For many vet trials in ESO (particularly the most recent ones), tanks are the lynchpin role. If you lose 3 tanks who know the content, you drastically decrease the chances of other people ever being able to learn it and clear it. The best way to skill up new tanks is to run them with experienced tanks.

As with anything in life, the best way to get the opportunity to learn trickier skills from a good teacher is to be a good student. Be grateful and understand why natural-born teachers want to teach. They feel good when you do well and you appreciate them for it. People in ESO who want to get to end game and have the right attitude about it will always get there eventually, because there are people who DO have that rare combination of traits listed above. But the people complaining "why won't anyone teach me" are going to be left to themselves.

NoireJin the Witchking

For me its a mixed bag, are people who don't follow mechs annoying? yeah, and are there a plethora of different contributing factors of them quitting? sure. However, a lot of Vet players just expect people to know everything. In my personal experience, a year ago when i did my first VET dungeons i was non stopped flamed by 2000 CP players while i was only cp 600 new to VET mechs. I wanted to join fellow players and was happy to follow and learn but instead i was met with such abrasion it almost turned me off from grouped content.

Sadly, playing tank in most MMOS has a inherent unspoken rule you tend to be delegated to lead most of the time. It is, to me, one of the reasonability of being a tank/mainline fighter. I am not saying this is indicative of all tanks but a lot more tank players could go out there way to chill out and realize there's a lot of reasons why someone might not be performing how they expect. Just be cool, and type and if they don't follow or engage with what you say kick them.

There is a lot ESO can do to encourage better tank/DPS engagement. perhaps gating some content behind max HP/weapon and spell damage etc or a minimum of some healing abilities checks in order to queue.

sarahthes

NoireJin the Witchking wrote: »

For me its a mixed bag, are people who don't follow mechs annoying? yeah, and are there a plethora of different contributing factors of them quitting? sure. However, a lot of Vet players just expect people to know everything. In my personal experience, a year ago when i did my first VET dungeons i was non stopped flamed by 2000 CP players while i was only cp 600 new to VET mechs. I wanted to join fellow players and was happy to follow and learn but instead i was met with such abrasion it almost turned me off from grouped content.

Sadly, playing tank in most MMOS has a inherent unspoken rule you tend to be delegated to lead most of the time. It is, to me, one of the reasonability of being a tank/mainline fighter. I am not saying this is indicative of all tanks but a lot more tank players could go out there way to chill out and realize there's a lot of reasons why someone might not be performing how they expect. Just be cool, and type and if they don't follow or engage with what you say kick them.

There is a lot ESO can do to encourage better tank/DPS engagement. perhaps gating some content behind max HP/weapon and spell damage etc or a minimum of some healing abilities checks in order to queue.

Champion Points do not directly correlate to skill, ability, knowledge, or patience. I'm sorry you had to learn that the hard way. I know a few people who have 3600 CP and they generally are not the most knowledgeable gamers (with a few rare exceptions).

One of the most knowledgeable players I know - one who is willing to teach new people - started playing less than a year ago and only has around 1400 CP. They lucked into meeting endgamers early, asking the right questions of the right people, and now they're trying to pass on the knowledge. They've mostly given up, though, because it turns out most people don't want to receive that knowledge.

abkam

sarahthes wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

abkam wrote: »

NotNi.ya wrote: »

Yeah exactly. Sadly there is good reason they get excluded from runs. The majority don't listen at all. I do feel bad they get excluded but if they are causing wipes or making the content harder just by being there, it has to be done

This has nothing to do with HA builds or 2bar builds. It happens with any ranged build. HA, Bow, or Arcanist. Any new player using a ranged build will usually stay behind the healers instead of in front, because they believe it's safer. And what do experienced veteran players do? They kick them out, preventing them from learning or understanding why they need to stay closer or adjust their position. Like I said earlier: "Veteran players don’t help anyone."

i think you are maybe missing the point of what myself and a few others are saying. you are absolutely right, its not only oakensoul players but the majority of the time, its those that stand out the most.
the point that is being made ties in with a few of the reasons people in the end game trials crowd are leaving and that is the fact that even though we try to help people, they dont listen and there is no group rotation happening due to people not wanting to prog/score push any more. that plus the bad performance lately is causing more and more people to quit the game leaving trials (especially hard mode trials) lacking the numbers.

I disagree once again, because there's much more to this than we're saying. Players leave for a lot of reasons, and new players don’t get the opportunity to learn the game. Veteran players are looking for more difficult content, so they join Discord groups. Then, they find out they aren’t good enough to run with those groups, so they return to the Group Finder and block new players from joining veteran content. Because otherwise, they don’t leave the game; they stay in it.

I’m not missing the point. I understand 100% what’s wrong, and I accept it, even if others don’t. Removing DPS sharing from the game and asking ZoS to penalize players who prevent others from joining through Group Finder (like ZoS did with teabagging) would be great for the game. Veteran players will always have Discord groups for more serious content, with logs and everything. And new players will learn the game mech, no matter what build or DPS they have.

edit:
If you ask me what’s wrong with the game, my answer will be very simple: remove DPS sharing and remove logs. Why? Because if no one can see the DPS, no one will kick you out because of your build. If no one can see the logs, veteran players looking for trifecta runs will have more opportunities to complete them.

I understand how sensitive all of this is; I really do. But I also see why ZoS doesn’t give much credit when some long-time veterans leave the game—because money plays a role in this too.

If logs are removed from the game I will stop raid leading endgame content. I need to be able to diagnose issues on the fly and after the fact in order to help my groups progress.

You know what the alternative to logs is? Forcing players to record their gameplay and submit the recordings after every raid in order for their every key press to be scrutinized. That is how they monitor team member effectiveness on console, where logs don't exist. I think forcing recording is far more invasive than logs. Not to mention, the reviews are much more time consuming.

(Yes I know high level PC players also require povs as well, but it's not the norm right now.)

I understand why you need logs; I really do! You lead endgame content, and maybe you even have a Discord server or are part of one. But after you look at the logs, what do you do? You reject players who send you their logs for your evaluation, right? If that’s correct, it’s because logs only serve that purpose: to block veteran players from joining harder content.

Of course, you might help them improve with feedback, but at the end of the day, if they’re not good enough, you will reject them based on those logs. You do it, and everyone who takes serious content seriously will do the same. You ask for logs, review them, and then reject players. The objective is to create a group with the best 12 players—I completely understand that. But what happens to all the others who get rejected? They go to Craglorn or the Group Finder and run veteran trials until they get bored and leave the game. Because logs push them out of the game, and now they will exclude others from the Group Finder because they aren’t good enough.

I really understand all of this. But if you or anyone can tell me a valid reason why you need DPS sharing and logs in the Group Finder, I’d be happy to hear it.

Players are leaving the game because there’s nothing more for them! They don’t have the opportunity to progress, and at the same time, they do the same to new players by blocking them. This is all happening because of addons like Hodor Reflex and the use of logs for more serious content.


edit:
If you’re part of any Discord, tell me this:
why do people need to send parses when they join any group? I understand that no one wants to run with someone doing only 20k DPS. But, just to be humorous, if you create a roster for, let’s say, vLC, and 9 DPS players apply with 120k DPS, but a new player with some experience joins with only a 90k parse, will you take him? No, you likely won’t… unless he’s a friend or a nice guy. But in general, no one will pick him simply because the others have higher DPS.
And yes, we’re talking about vLC, just a damn veteran trial, and the leader blocks him on Discord because his 90k DPS is lower than the 120k of the others. Yet, if the same leader runs in the Group Finder for the same trial, he would be very happy if that player with 90k DPS turns out to be the best in the group.

Veteran players don’t help anyone.
DPS sharing blocks new players from learning the game.
Logs kick experienced veteran players out of the game.

NotNi.ya

abkam wrote: »

They don’t have the opportunity to progress, and at the same time, they do the same to new players by blocking them. This is all happening because of addons like Hodor Reflex and the use of logs for more serious content.

im going to be completely honest here. i have score pushed on console and now on pc im more of a casual trifecta progger. if people are saying they dont have an opportunity to progress, they are not trying.

the end game community are more open to teach than ever! so many people have left we are quite litterally begging for new meat! @sarahthes and i are both in a server that is a place to run things with pugs, sarathes just a few days ago posted about a new group they are starting. opportunity is out there! if people dont go for it they dont get it, its as simple as that.
to blame logs or hodors is quite honestly wrong. you cannot hand over a spot to say VSEhm to someone who cannot pull decent dps at least. mechanics come over time dps needs to be kept up with.