4v4 Leaderboards should NOT be tied to Medal Score

ForumSavant · September 27

The vast majority of objective related maps don't even matter considering there are only 2 teams, it's 1000x better than engaging in obj based game modes with 3 teams. If you are engaged in combat, so is the other team, if you are distracting them from an pbj, they are also distracting you.

CameraBeardThePirate · September 27

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Yeah we will see I guess, the reality is today it's hard to even guess what could make players care about winning since there's an ongoing "Protest Movement" about having taken away the DM Only Queue, it's enraged many players to a state of utter hostility to the idea of playing objectives whatsoever.

I think it's this more than the underlying mentality that following rules and playing games is lame and stupid, all objectives and points and stuff are for boring nerds, but this spirit for sure colors some of this Protest Movement.

I'm a team player so I deliberately do not play to win if most of my team doesn't want to, and vice versa. But could I become one of these guys raging on their mic about not capping flags? Could we all? Were they the real PvPers are along..

It's not because "following rules are stupid", it's that the objective modes are insanely unbalanced with three teams, and actively discourage engaging in combat.

Most of the issues with objective modes are solved by only having two teams + smaller maps, and in the competitive queue, the worst offenders of the objective game types have been removed entirely, so there isn't really a problem anymore.

propertyOfUndefined · September 27

Medals are terrible in their current implementation (on live server). Based on my experience, they in no way reflect a player's contribution to their team's success or failure.

Urzigurumash · September 27

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Yeah we will see I guess, the reality is today it's hard to even guess what could make players care about winning since there's an ongoing "Protest Movement" about having taken away the DM Only Queue, it's enraged many players to a state of utter hostility to the idea of playing objectives whatsoever.

I think it's this more than the underlying mentality that following rules and playing games is lame and stupid, all objectives and points and stuff are for boring nerds, but this spirit for sure colors some of this Protest Movement.

I'm a team player so I deliberately do not play to win if most of my team doesn't want to, and vice versa. But could I become one of these guys raging on their mic about not capping flags? Could we all? Were they the real PvPers are along..

It's not because "following rules are stupid", it's that the objective modes are insanely unbalanced with three teams, and actively discourage engaging in combat.

Most of the issues with objective modes are solved by only having two teams + smaller maps, and in the competitive queue, the worst offenders of the objective game types have been removed entirely, so there isn't really a problem anymore.

Sure that's where it began but not where it ended. The most experienced players for the most part don't care about faction success either and just play Cyro to farm players. For sure people who play to win the map are also ridiculed as stupid RP nerds to be farmed by the Real Players, the ones who don't care about winning, or about what class they're on, or what sets they're wearing. A true PvPer ridicules Class Balance and Theorycrafting as the pursuit of eggheads, they could've spent that time farming AP with whatever build happens to be the strongest. All of this may have originated from the pointlessness of winning and the imbalance of the game mode in Cyro (I'm AD) but the culture of ignoring the objective in all forms of PvP is pretty well ingrained at this point. Whether it stems mostly from issues with either BGs or Cryo balance/objectives OR just from boredom of playing the same thing year after year I'm not sure, maybe both equally.

If you think 2 Teams can cure the problem then good thats why I bring it up. I'm all for a switch to Win Loss and see how it pans out.

Anything is better than Cumulative.

Urzigurumash · September 27

In other words I agree Camera people decided following the rules was stupid because the rules were stupid, the game was inherently non competitive.

I trust you're right that good map design and 2 teams will resolve this, the goal to me is to motivate the JabsPlars WhipKnights TarnBlades to engage in the same area of the map as the RP Leaderboard nerds. This is why I always thought Chaosball had the most potential with 3 teams, at least there was 1 objective in 1 area.

Aldoss · September 27

Adding in that my wife and I currently don't play any objectives (unless our teammates politely request it) and it has everything to do with the anti-motivation surrounding the interaction of objective modes.

We wait 10-20min to get a queue most nights and since we're not allowed to choose our preferred game mode, nothing is less disappointing than getting a relic and having it end in 3 minutes because a 3rd team with a track star runs the relics without having to fight.

There's no incentive for us to care.

I'm really excited to actually care about objectives, given the 2 team format, although less so than I was before it became known that ZOS hadn't put any thought into a true MMR. Every PvP game I've ever played, I enjoyed playing objectives... until eso bgs. ZOS killed all the motivation to participate in them.

Urzigurumash · September 27

Aldoss wrote: »

Adding in that my wife and I currently don't play any objectives (unless our teammates politely request it) and it has everything to do with the anti-motivation surrounding the interaction of objective modes.

We wait 10-20min to get a queue most nights and since we're not allowed to choose our preferred game mode, nothing is less disappointing than getting a relic and having it end in 3 minutes because a 3rd team with a track star runs the relics without having to fight.

There's no incentive for us to care.

I'm really excited to actually care about objectives, given the 2 team format, although less so than I was before it became known that ZOS hadn't put any thought into a true MMR. Every PvP game I've ever played, I enjoyed playing objectives... until eso bgs. ZOS killed all the motivation to participate in them.

Good insight here.

But there was always one reason to care about winning Relic: the leaderboard! The thing with the Obj leaderboards back when there were separate queues, hardly anybody played Objectives so - unlike the DM leaderboard - even though it was cumulative, you could still place on it with just a few matches played. So it actually was super competitive but to a very small number of players. Once the queues were mixed, the ratio of people queuing into an obj match with the desire to competitively try to win dropped to 1 in 10000, so now it became impossible to place on the Obj board because it was filled with low scoring players who never wanted to play them in the first place.

That issue hasn't fundamentally changed, hence my concern with Win Loss ranking. It's going to turn me into that guy raging about not being on the flags and it's not the future I envisioned for myself.

Don't get me wrong - Team Win Loss IS ideal, by far - but somehow people have got to care about winning Crazy King or it still won't be competitive for Solo Queuers - which is the majority of players.

Maybe somehow all these stats can be combined? Win/Loss, ave. Medal Score, Matches Played.

ForumSavant · September 27

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

Medals are terrible in their current implementation (on live server). Based on my experience, they in no way reflect a player's contribution to their team's success or failure.

Yes, everything should just be win/loss.