[PvP] Balance

TechMaybeHic · July 4

Finally went range plar. The meteor, javelin combos is indeed sweet and gives the burst I complain about lacking but range still didn't seem right. Kind of funny that I went back melee but chose a range ultimate and stun combo point blank over dawnbreaker

Now to wait for Monday PTS to see them nerf Radian Oppression and Javelin and buff Mages Wrath. I fully expect something like that.

Theignson · July 4

"The mechanic could be good, it is fun, but even with more ticks to reach 3, the whip still does not have enough burst right now."

Absolutely true. You have to spend 3 GCD using spells that require resources, to get some weapon damage and a whip, but it is nowhere near as powerful as the NB spectral bow, which requires no resources to charge and can even be used at range.

Firstmep · July 4

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

Finally went range plar. The meteor, javelin combos is indeed sweet and gives the burst I complain about lacking but range still didn't seem right. Kind of funny that I went back melee but chose a range ultimate and stun combo point blank over dawnbreaker

Now to wait for Monday PTS to see them nerf Radian Oppression and Javelin and buff Mages Wrath. I fully expect something like that.

Perma rollers can be annoying on range plar, but at the same time they wont kill you if they just spam dodge.
Ranged plar is extremely strong in bgs where you can stay in the back line and it ls solid 1v1, but I can get tricky 1vx.
I play both melee and ranged, and range plar defo feels stronger in bgs, especially in disjointed fights where you can pick people off.

I would be extremely surprised if they nerfed templar in any way considering their overall strength. Meteor javelin combo existed for years untouched.

Durham · July 5

Tcholl wrote: »

I just saw the new class set for DK and it might bring some pressure and needed burst since there is a scaling mech with it:

Dragonknight: Pyrebrand
2 items: Adds 1487 Offensive Penetration
3 items: Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
4 items: Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
5 items: Your Light Attacks deal 1084 Flame Damage every 2 seconds over 6 seconds. Your fully-charged Heavy Attacks consume up to 3 of your damage over time effects to deal 2384 Flame Damage in a 6 meter radius on the target, dealing up to 200% more damage to enemies below 33% Health. The damage scales off the higher of your Weapon or Spell damage and is increased by 20% for each damage over time effect on the target, up to 60%.

Have no idea how would that work in real world though.

To compete with the two fastest classes who also happen to do the best damage from range. A fully-charged heavy is going to be rough. Again the two most elusive classes are the fastest, highest in ranged damage that has outpaced melee. They also have heals that are on par if not better then the slow traditional melee centric classes.

Tcholl · July 5

Yes @Durham , the set will not balance the state of the class at all. Maybe, just bring a bit more fun to a class that is becoming more and more boring after the changes. Since you can HA from range to proc the scaling, might bring a little more burst from distance.

You are also correct when you talk about the other classes, imo sorcs and nbs are the ones that need a tune down. I believe Arcs, DKs and Wardens are in an average spot. Maybe, buffing DK will only make plars and specially necros even less desirable, while not helping much against the current state against NBs and specially Sorcs (ward changed the game for them). This is only my opinion though.

MEBengalsFan2001 · July 5

PVP balance isn't happening as ESO is balanced for PVE and not PVP. Every MMO that is PVE focused, balances the game around PVE and not PVP. It ends up breaking pvp. Right now pvp is really broken.

PVP needs an overhaul. For instance skills should have two different functions, what they do in PVE and what they do when battle spirit is active. In addition, gear should also function similar. Role selected should impact PVE and PVP stats.

Making changes like this would be great for pve and pvp. One game I played did this to and it allowed them to tweak pve damage or pvp without breaking the class in both area when they were trying to balance it for pve or pvp.

MedicInTheWild · July 5

What is sad is they could easily balance PVP using battle spirit to have more modifiers not only against health, healing and the normal things but against sets. They do it in No Proc Non CP they could easily do it all.

I think what should be focused on is progressive HOT reduction along with a few caps on set items,
Example is snow treaders, this set is designed to make you not be rooted and should have a speed cap placed on it. being able to not be immobilized or rooted while still being able to move fast as a mount should not be a thing.
HOT's should be reduced by a % for each one you have on maybe 50% that way when you have 6 on you that 6th on only gives you ~3% of the heal ( that may be a bit extreme but just an example)

There are so many other things that need attention outside of skills, I mean how long has stuck in combat been a thing?

What I hate the most is sorcs and Nb's causing you to be in combat. NB's try to gank and fail and cloak away and sorcs will streak half way across the effin map to avoid dying and then your stuck in combat. They should add a distance that if they move away it removes the combat proc .I think 25-30 meters, at that point they want to avoid PVP and I shouldn't be suppressed for it.

Until they respond we will never know, If we try to post in general to be seen we get moved to the correct forums and no one ever responds unless we start trolling each other. I posted in Alliance War forum stating we have got nothing since the December Pop Cap Testing, other than "we returned to normal cap", Communication sucks with PVP related topics.

So many great ideas throughout the forums they could try to help solve problems/balance, they just need to look.

Tcholl · July 5

The combat bug is real a thing with NBs and now got a lot worst with the Sorc ward abusers.

Zabagad · July 6

Tcholl wrote: »

The combat bug is real a thing with NBs and now got a lot worst with the Sorc ward abusers.

Ok, I really tried hard not to answer to any of your rants about Sorc lately, but after I red this:

"Tcholl wrote:

I [...]run in a ballgroup 6 hours minimum per week on a optimized comp

I really cannot hold on any longer.

Biggest problem of ICB are ballgoups by far - and then followed by NBs - and you now call us Sorcs "abusers" of the ward and blame us for the ICB. That was really the biggest [snip] I had to read from you

Tcholl · July 6

You are comparing a SKILL with a TEAM OF HEALERS. This already shows how strong is the skill.

It is easier to quote someone and accuse of suposing RANTS then bringing any valid information to the thread. Also, I have never accused anyone, but you are the one accusing me here.

I did not create any posts, so clearly this is not my personal opinion. Yes, i am allowed to support any threads too and i apologize but you are not a moderator.

It is very rich to see how people quote others here, not to relate a comment but to downplay or attack the author.

Tcholl · July 6

I just want to add, since I was accused of ranting against sorcs, that I have nothing against any class in the game and my comments are all related to the buff to the ward skill and how it affects PvP on small scale fights.

As per the combat bug, I never said that sorcs or anyone is responsible for it. The combat bug is there before the change. Also, did not accuse any particular player of abusing the skill, but stated that the ones abusing make the combat bug worst.

My opinion is that it is worst since the ward has been buffed and for obvious reasons. If more players are hard to kill, more changes to be stuck in combat.

Iriidius · July 6

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

So no examples?

From the depths of that horrifying Sorc thread, behold these CMX of similar value Cyrodiil HPS from my brawler Arc main and a meta 58k max mag Sorc I only made to see whether Hardened Ward was broken or not for myself.

46.1% of total Arc HPS from Impervious Ward @ 1593 HPS

86.5% of total Sorc HPS from Hardened Ward @ 2791 HPS

That sure looks like Hardened Ward being nigh twice as strong as Impervious Ward, a skill players had already been crying nerf over not too long ago. My Arc also needed Vigor and multiple hots just to get the same result as my Sorc spam.

It looks like this if you only look at the 2 numbers and have no clue what they mean. It actually shows that your ward deals a higher percentage of your heal when it is the only healing skill besides critical surge than when you have 4 other skills healing you(vigor, structured entropy, bloodcraze and cephaliarchs flail). How about you also use mara/histsap/dragonsppetite and and malubeth on your arcanist to make comparison with sorc more (un)equal. To make a more equal comparision your sorc would have to also slot vigor, structured entropy and bloodcraze.

Runeward is overall not weaker than hardened ward, just different and more situational and stacking from health. If both shields have same ressoursse number to scale from, runeward has 3 crux and 1 sec shield gets mostly used but not destroyed the 2shields are higher than hardened ward and the heal twice as high as hardened ward and together with one 0 crux no second shield runeward it is still as high as 2 hardened wards. Hardened Ward is better for spamming and Runeward better for sparingly use.

xylena_lazarow · July 6

Iriidius wrote: »

It actually shows that your ward deals a higher percentage of your heal when it is the only healing skill besides critical surge than when you have 4 other skills healing you(vigor, structured entropy, bloodcraze and cephaliarchs flail). How about you also use mara/histsap/dragonsppetite and and malubeth on your arcanist

Because Sorc DD doesn't need anything else. It hits the same numbers with 1 button. I'm not sure why you're telling me to turn my Arc DD build into a no damage brick. Arc damage kit is already trash that hard relies on procs. If you run tank builds, of course you're not going to tell the difference, your build isn't designed to kill in the first place.

Zabagad · July 7

Tcholl wrote: »

You are comparing a SKILL with a TEAM OF HEALERS. This already shows how strong is the skill.

It is easier to quote someone and accuse of suposing RANTS then bringing any valid information to the thread. Also, I have never accused anyone, but you are the one accusing me here.

I did not create any posts, so clearly this is not my personal opinion. Yes, i am allowed to support any threads too and i apologize but you are not a moderator.

It is very rich to see how people quote others here, not to relate a comment but to downplay or attack the author.

I'm not comparing anything - and for sure not "a SKILL with a TEAM OF HEALERS." and for sure that doesn't show how strong ward is.
I just talked about sources of ICB.
But anyway I apologize if you felt attacked. That wasn't my intention and sorry if the word "rant" sounds to offensive. I guess it was triggered by your wording "Sorc ward abusers" which sounds very accusing to me as a Sorc....?
And I didn't want to accuse you at anything - I just recognized that your account here has only one topic. (after 3-4 posts about your DK build)

What I brought to the discussion was just, that your claim "ward * ICB" was imo really unnecessary and not needed - especially if you play in a BG which imo is by far the biggest ICB source.

Sorry again if your felt personaly attacked....

Tcholl · July 7

It is all good @Zabagad! I am just trying to bring valid feedback and you too.

Tnx for your message.

FoJul · July 7

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

PVP balance isn't happening as ESO is balanced for PVE and not PVP. Every MMO that is PVE focused, balances the game around PVE and not PVP. It ends up breaking pvp. Right now pvp is really broken.

PVP needs an overhaul. For instance skills should have two different functions, what they do in PVE and what they do when battle spirit is active. In addition, gear should also function similar. Role selected should impact PVE and PVP stats.

Making changes like this would be great for pve and pvp. One game I played did this to and it allowed them to tweak pve damage or pvp without breaking the class in both area when they were trying to balance it for pve or pvp.

PvE is balanced? 80% of the builds are all carried by relequin/deadly no?

I wish I could load up ESO, take the build that "I" want to play, and actually do decent dmg with. Will that happen in today's ESO? Not a chance.

I have to use an artificial build that has artificial damage carrying the way it plays. I won't pve again, until its not carried by proc sets. Just turns every boss fight into a parse fest. Who can get the highest parse on this boss (lets check the logs).
This sounds hella familiar. Doesn't pvp also get carried by proc sets? that's a wild take.

I also hate having to play a DoT playstyle in pve. Why can't I chose how I want to play? Why do I have to chose between Light attack/dot? Or spam beam? Or hold Mouse 1? Why can I not just make a power build, and have enough burst damage to focus on burst rotation rather than juggling 5 dots.

Zos, is this your intentional design? Do we not want bursty rotations. Do we want just all DoTs? as many as we can get.

LittlePinkDot · July 8

Iriidius wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Galeriano2 wrote: »

So no examples?

From the depths of that horrifying Sorc thread, behold these CMX of similar value Cyrodiil HPS from my brawler Arc main and a meta 58k max mag Sorc I only made to see whether Hardened Ward was broken or not for myself.

46.1% of total Arc HPS from Impervious Ward @ 1593 HPS

86.5% of total Sorc HPS from Hardened Ward @ 2791 HPS

That sure looks like Hardened Ward being nigh twice as strong as Impervious Ward, a skill players had already been crying nerf over not too long ago. My Arc also needed Vigor and multiple hots just to get the same result as my Sorc spam.

It looks like this if you only look at the 2 numbers and have no clue what they mean. It actually shows that your ward deals a higher percentage of your heal when it is the only healing skill besides critical surge than when you have 4 other skills healing you(vigor, structured entropy, bloodcraze and cephaliarchs flail). How about you also use mara/histsap/dragonsppetite and and malubeth on your arcanist to make comparison with sorc more (un)equal. To make a more equal comparision your sorc would have to also slot vigor, structured entropy and bloodcraze.

Runeward is overall not weaker than hardened ward, just different and more situational and stacking from health. If both shields have same ressoursse number to scale from, runeward has 3 crux and 1 sec shield gets mostly used but not destroyed the 2shields are higher than hardened ward and the heal twice as high as hardened ward and together with one 0 crux no second shield runeward it is still as high as 2 hardened wards. Hardened Ward is better for spamming and Runeward better for sparingly use.

I'm on PS5. But so far I think my Bow Arcanist is doing pretty good against sorcs. With bow I can hit as far if not further than they can. I used Bastion CP to make my own shield stronger, but it also increases dmg against shielded enemies, so I think that's working to my favour in this new mag sorc flavour of the month era we are currently in.

Tcholl · July 10

Any comments on the new U43 changes that are coming everyone? I want to read some opinions.

katorga · July 10

Cyro...the meta is a ball group moving at max movement speed, with unlimited layered hots, pulling players in with chains, silver leash or rush of agony, and, at least based on my recaps, spamming masters 2H carves. They are expert in baiting disorganized groups and farming them. Class doesn't matter.

BG's....classes seem sort of balanced except for necro.

If you master Ulfsilds Contingency, it super charges sorc/arcanist damage shields, burst heals, and roll dodge.

xylena_lazarow · July 10

Tcholl wrote: »

Any comments on the new U43 changes that are coming everyone? I want to read some opinions.

Undeath nerfed (finally), frost Warden damage nerfed (boo hiss), NB buffed (lol), Necro buffed (not great but finally out of F tier), Sorc Curse nerfed to be blockable (good now do Hardened Ward next), Major Brut and Major Sav have been freed from scribble jail and are now available on everything except Resto (omg yay they listened).

Tinkerhorn · July 10

My initial take though I've yet to go onto the PTS is that the Necro changes are good, not phenomenal but good. My burstcro still suffers from a lot less damage and that won't particularly change however ulfsilds compensates a lot for the lost damage, so the adding of minor resolve to bone armour is great as it will enable me to switch out vigor for intensive mender for the +200 sustain and corpse generation, also intensive mender is getting a huge buff for group play, too much to be honest. Am worried they'll 'correct' it by nerfing the skill into irrelevancy come a later patch. Essentially the freeing up of a skill slot (though vigor is a great heal) is great for at least my necro.
The extension to 30 seconds on bone armour gives a little bit more ease on the juggle so very pleased with that change. Is a buff to sustain as well.
The rest of the necro buffs are not much that I'm personally interested in, and though it's nice to have access to major prophecy and sorcery, the skills aren't worth it so will stick to alliance spell pots as bar space feels like a premium. Spell pots are economical anyway.
People are asking for major sorcery to be put on BB but I'd be concerned that if they did give with the one hand, they'll take damage with the other and can't really afford to be giving up more damage. Would much rather have the +% to damage depending on time than major prophecy added to it but for all it's let downs cpmpared to stalking, blighted is still a very well loaded skill.
Oddly enough stalking as much as I miss it would be receiving an indirect nerf if I was using it due to only requiring vamp stage 1 for 10% mitigation so makes me a bit less sad in having lost it, assuming most people now only run stage 1. The loss in mitigation is burst friendly as well so yipee (will be other problems arise with undeath being nerfed though).

Am a little concerned about what it will be like inside keeps with the aoe buff to curse.

MEBengalsFan2001 · July 11

FoJul wrote: »

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

PVP balance isn't happening as ESO is balanced for PVE and not PVP. Every MMO that is PVE focused, balances the game around PVE and not PVP. It ends up breaking pvp. Right now pvp is really broken.

PVP needs an overhaul. For instance skills should have two different functions, what they do in PVE and what they do when battle spirit is active. In addition, gear should also function similar. Role selected should impact PVE and PVP stats.

Making changes like this would be great for pve and pvp. One game I played did this to and it allowed them to tweak pve damage or pvp without breaking the class in both area when they were trying to balance it for pve or pvp.

PvE is balanced? 80% of the builds are all carried by relequin/deadly no?

I wish I could load up ESO, take the build that "I" want to play, and actually do decent dmg with. Will that happen in today's ESO? Not a chance.

I have to use an artificial build that has artificial damage carrying the way it plays. I won't pve again, until its not carried by proc sets. Just turns every boss fight into a parse fest. Who can get the highest parse on this boss (lets check the logs).
This sounds hella familiar. Doesn't pvp also get carried by proc sets? that's a wild take.

I also hate having to play a DoT playstyle in pve. Why can't I chose how I want to play? Why do I have to chose between Light attack/dot? Or spam beam? Or hold Mouse 1? Why can I not just make a power build, and have enough burst damage to focus on burst rotation rather than juggling 5 dots.

Zos, is this your intentional design? Do we not want bursty rotations. Do we want just all DoTs? as many as we can get.

The thing is that in pvp it’s about burst damage. In PVE it’s about dot. Dot damage isn’t the issue imo. There are more dot types than burst types in this game. My Templar in pve doesn’t have enough room on his bars for all the various types of dot damage. As for burst damage for Templar you are forced to use weapons skills or the subpar burst skills that available to Templar.

The other problem is healing. My Warden healing skills surpasses my Templar healing skill which was the best healing skill at once point in the game. My warden can go from about 10% to full health my Templar goes from 10% to about 50%. Which still leaves the Templar susceptible to finishers.

Than there are the buffs and debuff problems as well. Some classes get some insane buffs and debuff and other simply suffer.

Here is something to think about for ZOS. First there many fantasy mmo coming to console soon. ESO is one of the top two mmo on consoles. How many players will leave if the game doesn’t get balanced soon. Me personally i looking at New World, Throne and Liberty which I have been fortunate enough to try out twice during their testing phases, Blue Protocol and if rumors are true WoW.

I am mostly upset that when the devs adjusted Templar it was to ensure players didn’t have a class that has high burst damage and high defensive but here we are two years later and most classes have both other than Templars. Devs are definitely failing.

Rhodghard · July 22

I see it very simple, at least what I see. If you want the PvP to be balanced, the least you have to do is cancel all set procs, that completely nullifies the entire gaming experience.

Either by a group ball that is spamming skills like crazy and kills you in nothing with its 10 sets of procs, not to mention the imbalance that exists between sets that are completely overpowered.

Simply that will cancel all set procs in Pvp and let the game run at 100% skill and 0% sets. which sadly is the other way around. When any player, no matter how bad, can kill you