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We get it ZOS you hate stealth play . . .
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DrNukenstein✭✭✭✭✭
As funny as this question may be it kinda hints at issue of how much pressure even presence of enemy nb adds to the fight. If You know that there is some nb sniper around and You are fighting someone else You will never be able to play as effectively as You would against 2 visible enemies. Nightblade can have control over the battlefield with way less input than regular non stealth playstyles.
This is a good point. It's the "snipers". Who break the deal of stealth in multiplayer videogames. It is only fair if you are putting yourself at risk. If you're using it to 3rd party people from complete safety then you're being a rat.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭I think you both have a point and the truth is in the middle.
You don't always know if the NB is talented or not, and you may be forced to miss potential burst windows on the other person to re-up on buffs or HoTs in case you get snuck up on.
Something I had to accept a long time ago is that there are no guarantees on fair fights in ESO. In anything other than a duel you should just assume that the longer the clock runs, the higher the chance someone will jump in from stealth or otherwise. Only question is will they be in your faction.
Only thing I'll give the NB is that they get to have initiative over and over. So yeah there's a higher chance you take a hit from whatever they choose. Vs someone walking into melee range and you getting the chance to know when to hold block.1 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »tokeinskyblu wrote: »So who is killing the enemies if nightblade is in stealth the whole fight?
As funny as this question may be it kinda hints at issue of how much pressure even presence of enemy nb adds to the fight. If You know that there is some nb sniper around and You are fighting someone else You will never be able to play as effectively as You would against 2 visible enemies. Nightblade can have control over the battlefield with way less input than regular non stealth playstyles.
This isn't really an issue if you just account for it in planning.
This is why I don't play outnumbered without having los available. You're only winning an outnumbered fight if your opponents are worse than you. So if you're using los and the NB is bad you'll possibly win the fight.
On the other hand if both players are better than you, together they both are better than you, or even one is better than you then you'll possibly just lose the fight no matter the class or if you're aware of them.
For example depending on the class you're playing 2 dot pressure builds could delete you no matter what you do if they play correctly. Compare that to say 3 cloaking nbs that just don't heal that well or rely on numbers over skill. You'll probably have more of a chance to respond and use los in the NB fight.
So I wouldn't say NB adds any significant pressure just by existing and being invisible. It's the quality of the NB and how prepared the player is that dictates a lot of the pressure someone may or may not feel.
It is an issue even if You account for it in planning. And in all honesty You don;t even need planning these days to know that in almost every fight You will be taking part there will be some nightblades.
Yes LoS is nice but the problem is current variety of sets and abilities available to players and how easy it is to be effectively annoying with minimal input. Another problem is that nb lately got overbuffed. Even enemies far worse than me can still be pretty effective in creating a lot of pressure and forcing me heavily into defense.
Lets make theoretical example. Current flavour of the month for them is scavenging demise set combined with preferably some other procs, poison injection, snipe and bow ulti. Lets say I am fighting 2 enemies that I am doing fairly good job against and nightblade archer joins the fight. All he needs to do, to put noticable pressure on me is applying poison injection. From that moment on I will have to deal with DoT from posion injection , some procs like plaguebreak etc and scavenging demise which can hit like a truck and I will have to always dodge it causing my stamina to deplete way faster especially that sometimes I will be force to dodge during dodge cost penalty and if I wont dodge it even once that may cause my death. He will stay in open field in stealth in safe distance from the place I am kiting around so I won't be able to go to him and reach him since he will just safely move away and if I will move too much into open field I will be easy target for his snipe spam and for other 2 people I was fighting with so detect potion is not gonna cut it. He is also blocking part of my kite area because every time I will move to the side that he have covered I will be easy target for him to spam snipe. And when I will decide to not come into his side of the kiting area he can just change position without me noticing and apply pressure once again. He will of course wait with bow ulti because even if 1 tick of it will hit me strong Dot will be applied to me.
So at the end of the day he can add lot of pressure by just safely sitting away in stealth and using 1-2 DoTs every 20-30 seconds. Pretty silly situation if You ask me. What is even more silly is that it was easier to fight 5-6 players few years ago than it is to fight 3 players with the same skill level as those 5-6 players simply because of how much power creep ZoS added to many setups especially nightblades.
Sheer fact that he is there will also put noticable pressure on me no matter how good or bad he is. If he knows basics which is basically sitting in cloak an tapping two buttons he's ready to go. if he would be really good player that would of course create a lot more pressure but he doesn't have to be that good to make that pressure really noticable.2 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »tokeinskyblu wrote: »So who is killing the enemies if nightblade is in stealth the whole fight?
As funny as this question may be it kinda hints at issue of how much pressure even presence of enemy nb adds to the fight. If You know that there is some nb sniper around and You are fighting someone else You will never be able to play as effectively as You would against 2 visible enemies. Nightblade can have control over the battlefield with way less input than regular non stealth playstyles.
This isn't really an issue if you just account for it in planning.
This is why I don't play outnumbered without having los available. You're only winning an outnumbered fight if your opponents are worse than you. So if you're using los and the NB is bad you'll possibly win the fight.
On the other hand if both players are better than you, together they both are better than you, or even one is better than you then you'll possibly just lose the fight no matter the class or if you're aware of them.
For example depending on the class you're playing 2 dot pressure builds could delete you no matter what you do if they play correctly. Compare that to say 3 cloaking nbs that just don't heal that well or rely on numbers over skill. You'll probably have more of a chance to respond and use los in the NB fight.
So I wouldn't say NB adds any significant pressure just by existing and being invisible. It's the quality of the NB and how prepared the player is that dictates a lot of the pressure someone may or may not feel.
It is an issue even if You account for it in planning. And in all honesty You don;t even need planning these days to know that in almost every fight You will be taking part there will be some nightblades.
Yes LoS is nice but the problem is current variety of sets and abilities available to players and how easy it is to be effectively annoying with minimal input. Another problem is that nb lately got overbuffed. Even enemies far worse than me can still be pretty effective in creating a lot of pressure and forcing me heavily into defense.
Lets make theoretical example. Current flavour of the month for them is scavenging demise set combined with preferably some other procs, poison injection, snipe and bow ulti. Lets say I am fighting 2 enemies that I am doing fairly good job against and nightblade archer joins the fight. All he needs to do, to put noticable pressure on me is applying poison injection. From that moment on I will have to deal with DoT from posion injection , some procs like plaguebreak etc and scavenging demise which can hit like a truck and I will have to always dodge it causing my stamina to deplete way faster especially that sometimes I will be force to dodge during dodge cost penalty and if I wont dodge it even once that may cause my death. He will stay in open field in stealth in safe distance from the place I am kiting around so I won't be able to go to him and reach him since he will just safely move away and if I will move too much into open field I will be easy target for his snipe spam and for other 2 people I was fighting with so detect potion is not gonna cut it. He is also blocking part of my kite area because every time I will move to the side that he have covered I will be easy target for him to spam snipe. And when I will decide to not come into his side of the kiting area he can just change position without me noticing and apply pressure once again. He will of course wait with bow ulti because even if 1 tick of it will hit me strong Dot will be applied to me.
So at the end of the day he can add lot of pressure by just safely sitting away in stealth and using 1-2 DoTs every 20-30 seconds. Pretty silly situation if You ask me. What is even more silly is that it was easier to fight 5-6 players few years ago than it is to fight 3 players with the same skill level as those 5-6 players simply because of how much power creep ZoS added to many setups especially nightblades.
Sheer fact that he is there will also put noticable pressure on me no matter how good or bad he is. If he knows basics which is basically sitting in cloak an tapping two buttons he's ready to go. if he would be really good player that would of course create a lot more pressure but he doesn't have to be that good to make that pressure really noticable.
So we can agree that there is power creep in the game and that's sort of my point.
So your scenario is a very valid one. It's happened to me a few times and it is truly crazy how much that proc hits for.
My point was more to say that people would still do the same even if it wasn't on a cloaked NB and it would still be just as effective.
So in that scenario replace the NB with a corrosive acuity DK with chains and or talons, or a full damage dot sorc build, or an Arcanist dot shield build that can cc and root you while still doing damage that will easily get you killed. All of these can get you killed with fairly low effort.
My point is that as long as there's a way to be efficient and running up and getting a kill players will run it. So yes there are a lot of nbs out there ready to come from stealth and jump in but you could remove stealth all together and players would easily come up with the next build that does the same just in another way because yes this game allows several ways for a less experienced player to compete for better or worse.
So when I say it's not really an issue with planning I should say it's no more of an issue these days than anything already out there be it NB or any other meta stuff. NB if just the current overtuned easy option.
It would be fun to imagine if cloak was gone that getting jumped with overtuned procs, classes, etc would just not happen anymore but that's just not the reality of the current game.
0 -
GooGa592✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cloakblade populations have exploded in Cyrodiil since their last update.
It must be because ZOS hates stealth play.
10 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Cloakblade populations have exploded in Cyrodiil since their last update.
It must be because ZOS hates stealth play.
I have a feeling this will only last till near or around next update.
Something tells me the next planned update will come with one or two flavor of the month changes.0 -
Meurto✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »tokeinskyblu wrote: »So who is killing the enemies if nightblade is in stealth the whole fight?
As funny as this question may be it kinda hints at issue of how much pressure even presence of enemy nb adds to the fight. If You know that there is some nb sniper around and You are fighting someone else You will never be able to play as effectively as You would against 2 visible enemies. Nightblade can have control over the battlefield with way less input than regular non stealth playstyles.
This isn't really an issue if you just account for it in planning.
This is why I don't play outnumbered without having los available. You're only winning an outnumbered fight if your opponents are worse than you. So if you're using los and the NB is bad you'll possibly win the fight.
On the other hand if both players are better than you, together they both are better than you, or even one is better than you then you'll possibly just lose the fight no matter the class or if you're aware of them.
For example depending on the class you're playing 2 dot pressure builds could delete you no matter what you do if they play correctly. Compare that to say 3 cloaking nbs that just don't heal that well or rely on numbers over skill. You'll probably have more of a chance to respond and use los in the NB fight.
So I wouldn't say NB adds any significant pressure just by existing and being invisible. It's the quality of the NB and how prepared the player is that dictates a lot of the pressure someone may or may not feel.
It is an issue even if You account for it in planning. And in all honesty You don;t even need planning these days to know that in almost every fight You will be taking part there will be some nightblades.
Yes LoS is nice but the problem is current variety of sets and abilities available to players and how easy it is to be effectively annoying with minimal input. Another problem is that nb lately got overbuffed. Even enemies far worse than me can still be pretty effective in creating a lot of pressure and forcing me heavily into defense.
Lets make theoretical example. Current flavour of the month for them is scavenging demise set combined with preferably some other procs, poison injection, snipe and bow ulti. Lets say I am fighting 2 enemies that I am doing fairly good job against and nightblade archer joins the fight. All he needs to do, to put noticable pressure on me is applying poison injection. From that moment on I will have to deal with DoT from posion injection , some procs like plaguebreak etc and scavenging demise which can hit like a truck and I will have to always dodge it causing my stamina to deplete way faster especially that sometimes I will be force to dodge during dodge cost penalty and if I wont dodge it even once that may cause my death. He will stay in open field in stealth in safe distance from the place I am kiting around so I won't be able to go to him and reach him since he will just safely move away and if I will move too much into open field I will be easy target for his snipe spam and for other 2 people I was fighting with so detect potion is not gonna cut it. He is also blocking part of my kite area because every time I will move to the side that he have covered I will be easy target for him to spam snipe. And when I will decide to not come into his side of the kiting area he can just change position without me noticing and apply pressure once again. He will of course wait with bow ulti because even if 1 tick of it will hit me strong Dot will be applied to me.
So at the end of the day he can add lot of pressure by just safely sitting away in stealth and using 1-2 DoTs every 20-30 seconds. Pretty silly situation if You ask me. What is even more silly is that it was easier to fight 5-6 players few years ago than it is to fight 3 players with the same skill level as those 5-6 players simply because of how much power creep ZoS added to many setups especially nightblades.
Sheer fact that he is there will also put noticable pressure on me no matter how good or bad he is. If he knows basics which is basically sitting in cloak an tapping two buttons he's ready to go. if he would be really good player that would of course create a lot more pressure but he doesn't have to be that good to make that pressure really noticable.
[snip] the reality of the situation you described is scenarios where someone presses one or two buttons and either unloads a flurry of damage or completely erases the damage done. The unkillable 1vx build (basically the same for every class) is exponentially more obnoxious than anyone using a bow.
PvP is currently in a dumpster fire closing in from all sides. There is absolutely zero parity between dmg and defense which is why you see everyone running the same miserable masters dw with vate staff. [snip] The only bloody official posts we see are those quoting the TOS. No ones home here. [snip]
[edited for bashing]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 16 December 2023 16:341 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »tokeinskyblu wrote: »So who is killing the enemies if nightblade is in stealth the whole fight?
As funny as this question may be it kinda hints at issue of how much pressure even presence of enemy nb adds to the fight. If You know that there is some nb sniper around and You are fighting someone else You will never be able to play as effectively as You would against 2 visible enemies. Nightblade can have control over the battlefield with way less input than regular non stealth playstyles.
This isn't really an issue if you just account for it in planning.
This is why I don't play outnumbered without having los available. You're only winning an outnumbered fight if your opponents are worse than you. So if you're using los and the NB is bad you'll possibly win the fight.
On the other hand if both players are better than you, together they both are better than you, or even one is better than you then you'll possibly just lose the fight no matter the class or if you're aware of them.
For example depending on the class you're playing 2 dot pressure builds could delete you no matter what you do if they play correctly. Compare that to say 3 cloaking nbs that just don't heal that well or rely on numbers over skill. You'll probably have more of a chance to respond and use los in the NB fight.
So I wouldn't say NB adds any significant pressure just by existing and being invisible. It's the quality of the NB and how prepared the player is that dictates a lot of the pressure someone may or may not feel.
It is an issue even if You account for it in planning. And in all honesty You don;t even need planning these days to know that in almost every fight You will be taking part there will be some nightblades.
Yes LoS is nice but the problem is current variety of sets and abilities available to players and how easy it is to be effectively annoying with minimal input. Another problem is that nb lately got overbuffed. Even enemies far worse than me can still be pretty effective in creating a lot of pressure and forcing me heavily into defense.
Lets make theoretical example. Current flavour of the month for them is scavenging demise set combined with preferably some other procs, poison injection, snipe and bow ulti. Lets say I am fighting 2 enemies that I am doing fairly good job against and nightblade archer joins the fight. All he needs to do, to put noticable pressure on me is applying poison injection. From that moment on I will have to deal with DoT from posion injection , some procs like plaguebreak etc and scavenging demise which can hit like a truck and I will have to always dodge it causing my stamina to deplete way faster especially that sometimes I will be force to dodge during dodge cost penalty and if I wont dodge it even once that may cause my death. He will stay in open field in stealth in safe distance from the place I am kiting around so I won't be able to go to him and reach him since he will just safely move away and if I will move too much into open field I will be easy target for his snipe spam and for other 2 people I was fighting with so detect potion is not gonna cut it. He is also blocking part of my kite area because every time I will move to the side that he have covered I will be easy target for him to spam snipe. And when I will decide to not come into his side of the kiting area he can just change position without me noticing and apply pressure once again. He will of course wait with bow ulti because even if 1 tick of it will hit me strong Dot will be applied to me.
So at the end of the day he can add lot of pressure by just safely sitting away in stealth and using 1-2 DoTs every 20-30 seconds. Pretty silly situation if You ask me. What is even more silly is that it was easier to fight 5-6 players few years ago than it is to fight 3 players with the same skill level as those 5-6 players simply because of how much power creep ZoS added to many setups especially nightblades.
Sheer fact that he is there will also put noticable pressure on me no matter how good or bad he is. If he knows basics which is basically sitting in cloak an tapping two buttons he's ready to go. if he would be really good player that would of course create a lot more pressure but he doesn't have to be that good to make that pressure really noticable.
[snip] the reality of the situation you described is scenarios where someone presses one or two buttons and either unloads a flurry of damage or completely erases the damage done. The unkillable 1vx build (basically the same for every class) is exponentially more obnoxious than anyone using a bow.
PvP is currently in a dumpster fire closing in from all sides. There is absolutely zero parity between dmg and defense which is why you see everyone running the same miserable masters dw with vate staff. [snip] The only bloody official posts we see are those quoting the TOS. No ones home here. [snip]
I mean you're both right to some degree. The game needs an overhaul sooner rather than later and nbs are a pain point at the moment for a lot of people due to people being into the cloak and burst mechanic.
So yes to some degree you have to just accept the game for what it is because that's what we got.
But I'm also understand wanting to express that here in case a dev happens to read it.
Nbs, arena weapons, and Arcanist are huge problems at the moment. They need to be addressed but at the same time it doesn't have to ruin the have for you. I've just tried to get better at using roll dishes, los, any healing I can and of course raw damage to try to deal with the pain points.
And yes I do run solo often so I can say it's much much more tolerable when you have your own friend or teammate ready to jump in to even the odds.
And yes the game is currently encouraging grouping or being group adjacent so you have to consider that way more than before.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on 16 December 2023 16:360 -
Galeriano✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »tokeinskyblu wrote: »So who is killing the enemies if nightblade is in stealth the whole fight?
As funny as this question may be it kinda hints at issue of how much pressure even presence of enemy nb adds to the fight. If You know that there is some nb sniper around and You are fighting someone else You will never be able to play as effectively as You would against 2 visible enemies. Nightblade can have control over the battlefield with way less input than regular non stealth playstyles.
This isn't really an issue if you just account for it in planning.
This is why I don't play outnumbered without having los available. You're only winning an outnumbered fight if your opponents are worse than you. So if you're using los and the NB is bad you'll possibly win the fight.
On the other hand if both players are better than you, together they both are better than you, or even one is better than you then you'll possibly just lose the fight no matter the class or if you're aware of them.
For example depending on the class you're playing 2 dot pressure builds could delete you no matter what you do if they play correctly. Compare that to say 3 cloaking nbs that just don't heal that well or rely on numbers over skill. You'll probably have more of a chance to respond and use los in the NB fight.
So I wouldn't say NB adds any significant pressure just by existing and being invisible. It's the quality of the NB and how prepared the player is that dictates a lot of the pressure someone may or may not feel.
It is an issue even if You account for it in planning. And in all honesty You don;t even need planning these days to know that in almost every fight You will be taking part there will be some nightblades.
Yes LoS is nice but the problem is current variety of sets and abilities available to players and how easy it is to be effectively annoying with minimal input. Another problem is that nb lately got overbuffed. Even enemies far worse than me can still be pretty effective in creating a lot of pressure and forcing me heavily into defense.
Lets make theoretical example. Current flavour of the month for them is scavenging demise set combined with preferably some other procs, poison injection, snipe and bow ulti. Lets say I am fighting 2 enemies that I am doing fairly good job against and nightblade archer joins the fight. All he needs to do, to put noticable pressure on me is applying poison injection. From that moment on I will have to deal with DoT from posion injection , some procs like plaguebreak etc and scavenging demise which can hit like a truck and I will have to always dodge it causing my stamina to deplete way faster especially that sometimes I will be force to dodge during dodge cost penalty and if I wont dodge it even once that may cause my death. He will stay in open field in stealth in safe distance from the place I am kiting around so I won't be able to go to him and reach him since he will just safely move away and if I will move too much into open field I will be easy target for his snipe spam and for other 2 people I was fighting with so detect potion is not gonna cut it. He is also blocking part of my kite area because every time I will move to the side that he have covered I will be easy target for him to spam snipe. And when I will decide to not come into his side of the kiting area he can just change position without me noticing and apply pressure once again. He will of course wait with bow ulti because even if 1 tick of it will hit me strong Dot will be applied to me.
So at the end of the day he can add lot of pressure by just safely sitting away in stealth and using 1-2 DoTs every 20-30 seconds. Pretty silly situation if You ask me. What is even more silly is that it was easier to fight 5-6 players few years ago than it is to fight 3 players with the same skill level as those 5-6 players simply because of how much power creep ZoS added to many setups especially nightblades.
Sheer fact that he is there will also put noticable pressure on me no matter how good or bad he is. If he knows basics which is basically sitting in cloak an tapping two buttons he's ready to go. if he would be really good player that would of course create a lot more pressure but he doesn't have to be that good to make that pressure really noticable.
So we can agree that there is power creep in the game and that's sort of my point.
So your scenario is a very valid one. It's happened to me a few times and it is truly crazy how much that proc hits for.
My point was more to say that people would still do the same even if it wasn't on a cloaked NB and it would still be just as effective.
So in that scenario replace the NB with a corrosive acuity DK with chains and or talons, or a full damage dot sorc build, or an Arcanist dot shield build that can cc and root you while still doing damage that will easily get you killed. All of these can get you killed with fairly low effort.
My point is that as long as there's a way to be efficient and running up and getting a kill players will run it. So yes there are a lot of nbs out there ready to come from stealth and jump in but you could remove stealth all together and players would easily come up with the next build that does the same just in another way because yes this game allows several ways for a less experienced player to compete for better or worse.
So when I say it's not really an issue with planning I should say it's no more of an issue these days than anything already out there be it NB or any other meta stuff. NB if just the current overtuned easy option.
It would be fun to imagine if cloak was gone that getting jumped with overtuned procs, classes, etc would just not happen anymore but that's just not the reality of the current game.
In my opinion there is a difference between mentioned nb and rest of the builds. Acuity DK needs to time up his burst combo perfectly while having opportunity window for it only once in a while and he needs to have stun guaranteed in his combo in proper moment so if rest of the people he is pushing with will be spamming stuns he may not be able to nuke enemy. He is also full meele so he needs to stay on target to do anything. Full dmg DoT sorc needs to stay on the taret aswell if he wants to apply nice pressure because if he wont the only thing he will apply to You will be DoT from master DW and ele susceptibility without vate destro buff. He can be also pressure flipped way easier than mentioned nb since if he went with full dmg build he is pretty squishy in nature and one proper burst combo can erase him before he even notices and it's way easier to apply that combo to someone who is follwoing You rather than sitting in stealth nobody knows where and that doesn't have quick burst heals. I can agree that high shield, proc based arcanist is very annoying especially when he spams his stun which forces You to stop and block for a moment or just eat the stun which makes it easier for enemies to follow You especially when combined with his immobilize however similar to other mentioned earlier setups he also needs to stay on You to apply said pressure, he can't just sit somwhere and use 1-2 range DoTs once even 20-30 seconds.
Mentioned by You setups are either meele/semi meele, or squishy or both and they're all visible which makes them way easier to fight against than mentioned nb and players using them need a bit more skill than mentioned nb needs to be pain in the butt. There is a reason for current population of nightblades in PvP.1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »tokeinskyblu wrote: »So who is killing the enemies if nightblade is in stealth the whole fight?
As funny as this question may be it kinda hints at issue of how much pressure even presence of enemy nb adds to the fight. If You know that there is some nb sniper around and You are fighting someone else You will never be able to play as effectively as You would against 2 visible enemies. Nightblade can have control over the battlefield with way less input than regular non stealth playstyles.
This isn't really an issue if you just account for it in planning.
This is why I don't play outnumbered without having los available. You're only winning an outnumbered fight if your opponents are worse than you. So if you're using los and the NB is bad you'll possibly win the fight.
On the other hand if both players are better than you, together they both are better than you, or even one is better than you then you'll possibly just lose the fight no matter the class or if you're aware of them.
For example depending on the class you're playing 2 dot pressure builds could delete you no matter what you do if they play correctly. Compare that to say 3 cloaking nbs that just don't heal that well or rely on numbers over skill. You'll probably have more of a chance to respond and use los in the NB fight.
So I wouldn't say NB adds any significant pressure just by existing and being invisible. It's the quality of the NB and how prepared the player is that dictates a lot of the pressure someone may or may not feel.
It is an issue even if You account for it in planning. And in all honesty You don;t even need planning these days to know that in almost every fight You will be taking part there will be some nightblades.
Yes LoS is nice but the problem is current variety of sets and abilities available to players and how easy it is to be effectively annoying with minimal input. Another problem is that nb lately got overbuffed. Even enemies far worse than me can still be pretty effective in creating a lot of pressure and forcing me heavily into defense.
Lets make theoretical example. Current flavour of the month for them is scavenging demise set combined with preferably some other procs, poison injection, snipe and bow ulti. Lets say I am fighting 2 enemies that I am doing fairly good job against and nightblade archer joins the fight. All he needs to do, to put noticable pressure on me is applying poison injection. From that moment on I will have to deal with DoT from posion injection , some procs like plaguebreak etc and scavenging demise which can hit like a truck and I will have to always dodge it causing my stamina to deplete way faster especially that sometimes I will be force to dodge during dodge cost penalty and if I wont dodge it even once that may cause my death. He will stay in open field in stealth in safe distance from the place I am kiting around so I won't be able to go to him and reach him since he will just safely move away and if I will move too much into open field I will be easy target for his snipe spam and for other 2 people I was fighting with so detect potion is not gonna cut it. He is also blocking part of my kite area because every time I will move to the side that he have covered I will be easy target for him to spam snipe. And when I will decide to not come into his side of the kiting area he can just change position without me noticing and apply pressure once again. He will of course wait with bow ulti because even if 1 tick of it will hit me strong Dot will be applied to me.
So at the end of the day he can add lot of pressure by just safely sitting away in stealth and using 1-2 DoTs every 20-30 seconds. Pretty silly situation if You ask me. What is even more silly is that it was easier to fight 5-6 players few years ago than it is to fight 3 players with the same skill level as those 5-6 players simply because of how much power creep ZoS added to many setups especially nightblades.
Sheer fact that he is there will also put noticable pressure on me no matter how good or bad he is. If he knows basics which is basically sitting in cloak an tapping two buttons he's ready to go. if he would be really good player that would of course create a lot more pressure but he doesn't have to be that good to make that pressure really noticable.
So we can agree that there is power creep in the game and that's sort of my point.
So your scenario is a very valid one. It's happened to me a few times and it is truly crazy how much that proc hits for.
My point was more to say that people would still do the same even if it wasn't on a cloaked NB and it would still be just as effective.
So in that scenario replace the NB with a corrosive acuity DK with chains and or talons, or a full damage dot sorc build, or an Arcanist dot shield build that can cc and root you while still doing damage that will easily get you killed. All of these can get you killed with fairly low effort.
My point is that as long as there's a way to be efficient and running up and getting a kill players will run it. So yes there are a lot of nbs out there ready to come from stealth and jump in but you could remove stealth all together and players would easily come up with the next build that does the same just in another way because yes this game allows several ways for a less experienced player to compete for better or worse.
So when I say it's not really an issue with planning I should say it's no more of an issue these days than anything already out there be it NB or any other meta stuff. NB if just the current overtuned easy option.
It would be fun to imagine if cloak was gone that getting jumped with overtuned procs, classes, etc would just not happen anymore but that's just not the reality of the current game.
In my opinion there is a difference between mentioned nb and rest of the builds. Acuity DK needs to time up his burst combo perfectly while having opportunity window for it only once in a while and he needs to have stun guaranteed in his combo in proper moment so if rest of the people he is pushing with will be spamming stuns he may not be able to nuke enemy. He is also full meele so he needs to stay on target to do anything. Full dmg DoT sorc needs to stay on the taret aswell if he wants to apply nice pressure because if he wont the only thing he will apply to You will be DoT from master DW and ele susceptibility without vate destro buff. He can be also pressure flipped way easier than mentioned nb since if he went with full dmg build he is pretty squishy in nature and one proper burst combo can erase him before he even notices and it's way easier to apply that combo to someone who is follwoing You rather than sitting in stealth nobody knows where and that doesn't have quick burst heals. I can agree that high shield, proc based arcanist is very annoying especially when he spams his stun which forces You to stop and block for a moment or just eat the stun which makes it easier for enemies to follow You especially when combined with his immobilize however similar to other mentioned earlier setups he also needs to stay on You to apply said pressure, he can't just sit somwhere and use 1-2 range DoTs once even 20-30 seconds.
Mentioned by You setups are either meele/semi meele, or squishy or both and they're all visible which makes them way easier to fight against than mentioned nb and players using them need a bit more skill than mentioned nb needs to be pain in the butt. There is a reason for current population of nightblades in PvP.
I'm just going to give you a simple one of how easily the fight gets ended. Let's take the dot sorc.
Really simple and easy. Keep in mind you're already dealing with one or more opponents with let's say damage you can handle.
The dot sorc is full damage because they came for the jump in so they know they are waiting for that window. It's going to be a curse first that you just have to take then a crystal weapon into a rending, very very easy to get off. Now you have a curse about you go off rending and fire set dot on you and then a db which even if it doesn't cc you adds another dot but likely it or another cc will hit and then come the spin to win.
This combo with even a little practice will hit a good player hard not to mention a player already being attacked. It's honestly so easy that I just can't even go there with that cheese. Oh I forgot that db came with a 500 balorgh so yeah I might be swuish but I'm waiting for you to have your back turned and for your health to drop a bit
My point is that the type of player that will 1 2 you from the shadows will still play that sane way and just as effectively event if you remove cloak because this game has so much free damage and ways to facilitate this playstyle.
Oh by the way if the above seemed at all complex then just imagine an Arcanist with a dot build. They are a root/cc machine that you won't be able to kill because of their busted shield. So they can just eat at your resources and wear you down right in your face.
None of what I've just described is a whole lot of button mashing or thinking really.
So again NB is definitely a problem but more so just the easier of the options but by far not the only option for a player just looking for easy damage these days.
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Zabulus✭✭✭DK, Sorcs, Arca are on top right now ...
Only good spot for NB is jumping on a 1v1, or side of a ball...
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IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭DK, Sorcs, Arca are on top right now ...
Only good spot for NB is jumping on a 1v1, or side of a ball...
Yeah... nope. I often see NBs 1vx far more than any other classes. Most other classes' 1vx involve just running around the tree or whatever LoS object is. Waiting until the stars align for that burst that may or may not drop people attacking them. NB? They are actually killing people while kiting, healing back to full health with the cheapest strong burst heal in the game with same 1vxer resistances. I don't know, something tells me that NB is very good at 1vxing. Not to mention solo bombs.
NBs have the most amount of named buffs easily accessible by any builds a player builds on it. Must be why almost all the sweaty players try out NB these days and stick to it if they like playing as NB.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel4 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭IZZEFlameLash wrote: »DK, Sorcs, Arca are on top right now ...
Only good spot for NB is jumping on a 1v1, or side of a ball...
Yeah... nope. I often see NBs 1vx far more than any other classes. Most other classes' 1vx involve just running around the tree or whatever LoS object is. Waiting until the stars align for that burst that may or may not drop people attacking them. NB? They are actually killing people while kiting, healing back to full health with the cheapest strong burst heal in the game with same 1vxer resistances. I don't know, something tells me that NB is very good at 1vxing. Not to mention solo bombs.
NBs have the most amount of named buffs easily accessible by any builds a player builds on it. Must be why almost all the sweaty players try out NB these days and stick to it if they like playing as NB.
It's really tiers
NB, DK, Warden, and Arcanist are all basically S and A tier or close enough that it's not worth debating.
All of them are playable but NB has the highest single target damage combined with the most amount of class skills that each have an above average degree of utility.
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Alharion✭✭✭note: Zenimax don't know how to make an assassin class and, above all, they don't know how this class should work, as in any self-respecting MMORPG, they've all done away with what an assassin is supposed to do in a game of this type...0
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Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭note: Zenimax don't know how to make an assassin class and, above all, they don't know how this class should work, as in any self-respecting MMORPG, they've all done away with what an assassin is supposed to do in a game of this type...
It goes much deeper and farther than that. Trying to make a class viable in PvE and PVP, hybridization, people complaining about either dying too much or not being able to kill anything, etc
Even with all the NB buffs in play right now some still don't find it to be a performer in PvE yet it over performs in pvp. So you can reign it in on the pvp front but now PvE is feeling pain points.
That's just one example of the issues in terms to balance things with the current state of the game. It's crazy the amount of issues that could be resolved if balance was separated.0 -
DrNukenstein✭✭✭✭✭note: Zenimax don't know how to make an assassin class and, above all, they don't know how this class should work, as in any self-respecting MMORPG, they've all done away with what an assassin is supposed to do in a game of this type...
I'm going to be real here, this game has the strongest stealth class in all the video games. It's just the other classes are like the strongest (Insert trope) classes in all the video games too (except necromancer, and arguably plar when compared to "paladins" in other games).
Then the PVP is a niche scene here. There's a small number of players that play a lot so they are skill capped. There are less players that aren't skill capped due to the fact that no one wakes up and decides "I'm gonna check out ESO PVP today". "Assassinating" skill capped players is more on them making a mistake than it is on you connecting your combo.0 -
Cast_El✭✭✭✭Shadow image is the best defensive ability in the game learn to play with it. You can teleport though wall...
Nothing else to say but NB also has the best hard hitting ability.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Shadow image is the best defensive ability in the game learn to play with it. You can teleport though wall...
Nothing else to say but NB also has the best hard hitting ability.
Shade is awesome but it's also limited to the area you're in and the window of time and how much damage is aimed at you. If you're in a damage build you still have to actually use it properly or you'll take a lot of damage. Unlike cloak if really does ask the player to be smart about using it which I appreciate.0 -
Caecus0✭✭✭
Only one bugged DoT left and that's the Structured Entropy morph of Entropy (Degeneration doesn't break cloak), Elemental Susceptibility doesn't.DoTs do pull Nightblades out of stealth. Just not every DoT does.
Entropy and Elemental Susceptibility (Weakness to Elements Morph) both will pull Night Blades out of Invisibility. The latter of the 2 has become increasingly popular due to how much it does in a single ability.
There are others but I can't think of them off of the top of my head right this second.
All the other bugged DoTs that used to break cloak have been fixed afaik (Blackrose destro staff, Oblivion's Foe, Overwhelming Surge etc...)
Elemental Susceptibility most certainly does still remove Nightblades from Stealth. It applies the 3 status effects, and 2 out of 3 of them instantly apply DIRECT damage. Which removes them from stealth.0 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
Only one bugged DoT left and that's the Structured Entropy morph of Entropy (Degeneration doesn't break cloak), Elemental Susceptibility doesn't.DoTs do pull Nightblades out of stealth. Just not every DoT does.
Entropy and Elemental Susceptibility (Weakness to Elements Morph) both will pull Night Blades out of Invisibility. The latter of the 2 has become increasingly popular due to how much it does in a single ability.
There are others but I can't think of them off of the top of my head right this second.
All the other bugged DoTs that used to break cloak have been fixed afaik (Blackrose destro staff, Oblivion's Foe, Overwhelming Surge etc...)
Elemental Susceptibility most certainly does still remove Nightblades from Stealth. It applies the 3 status effects, and 2 out of 3 of them instantly apply DIRECT damage. Which removes them from stealth.
Played a tanky build with both of these just to bring nbs out of stealth. It was interesting but with the amount of movement speed, regen, and damage they have it only really seemed to bother the ones that were probably going to die either way. The better nbs just kept fighting, cloaking, healing, zipping around with seemingly little issue.0 -
TechMaybeHic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I guess to the OPs point; the stealth part can be practically not functional as far as stealth; but the class is good enough, you don't really need it to do that. It still provides a lot of *miss* fly texts1