We get it ZOS you hate stealth play . . .

IZZEFlameLash

DrNukenstein wrote: »

From how tilted people are over the modern meta-blade, you'd think they'd want the class to go back to the stealth play style.

So do you want the class to be well equipped for ganking or well equipped for brawling? Because the ganker kit really is not what it was pre U35.

I would always see a variation of this statement when it was other classes eating a hefty nerf to the sustain, damage in the patch notes back then. In fact, it was so frequent that there was a period of time where DK, Warden and Sorc mains would dread reading patch notes because a certain lead combat designer would find a way to nerf those classes every patch. Never saw NB get this sort of treatment.

If NB is getting the treatment Necro is getting right now, I'd sympathize. But, I struggle to think of occasion of serial NB nerfs that were accompanied by drastic cost increases damage decreases on top of nerfing the passives that made those nerfed skills semi-functional on every single patch notes. All the while buffing a skill no one really asked for (remember ZOS' fixation on Stone Giant?) by a very negligible margin before reverting that buff and then buffing again after few strings of even more nerfs. That is essentially what Necro is going through and as someone who mained every classes at their before settling with DK at its weakest period when no one really played, I sympathize with Necros the most.

Zama666

Kill and Be Killed.
Never ending cycle of PvP.

Zama666

Janni wrote: »

ZeroAxis wrote: »

Personally, I think the changes to detect pots and the prominent use of Sentry have been merited. I primarily play as a ganker and I honestly empathize with the general disdain as of late. The mobs of Nightblades running together is getting old. Ganking is supposed to be “assassination” in my opinion. Having 12 Nightblades pop out of stealth to vaporize one person is not funny, tactical, or even fair. If groups opt to stealth, I feel that the entire group should be revealed once one person in that group leaves stealth.

I did used to think detection potions were way overboard but ever since the buffs to stealth in general they are very much necessary now. And while this setup might shutdown a single style of play it definitely doesn't shutdown the entire class. You also have to consider that all of this stuff is dedicated to exactly one style of play from one class. What other classes or skills have so many things dedicated to countering them? To me that speaks to how powerful of a mechanic it is in the first place. And it is still an opportunity cost. Wearing all that stuff to counter nightblades in cloak isn't going to help you much against anything else.

The only thing I think really should be fixed is that the user of such sets and potions should be marked so that the nightblade at least knows who is doing it and who to target if they want to counter it. More than fair at that point.

About this "The only thing I think really should be fixed is that the user of such sets and potions should be marked so that the nightblade at least knows who is doing it and who to target if they want to counter it. More than fair at that point."

Sorry, help me out here. Why are you suggesting this? Why is this fair? Just not clear of what this accomplishes.

Thanks,

Z

Janni

Zama666 wrote: »

Janni wrote: »

ZeroAxis wrote: »

Personally, I think the changes to detect pots and the prominent use of Sentry have been merited. I primarily play as a ganker and I honestly empathize with the general disdain as of late. The mobs of Nightblades running together is getting old. Ganking is supposed to be “assassination” in my opinion. Having 12 Nightblades pop out of stealth to vaporize one person is not funny, tactical, or even fair. If groups opt to stealth, I feel that the entire group should be revealed once one person in that group leaves stealth.

I did used to think detection potions were way overboard but ever since the buffs to stealth in general they are very much necessary now. And while this setup might shutdown a single style of play it definitely doesn't shutdown the entire class. You also have to consider that all of this stuff is dedicated to exactly one style of play from one class. What other classes or skills have so many things dedicated to countering them? To me that speaks to how powerful of a mechanic it is in the first place. And it is still an opportunity cost. Wearing all that stuff to counter nightblades in cloak isn't going to help you much against anything else.

The only thing I think really should be fixed is that the user of such sets and potions should be marked so that the nightblade at least knows who is doing it and who to target if they want to counter it. More than fair at that point.

About this "The only thing I think really should be fixed is that the user of such sets and potions should be marked so that the nightblade at least knows who is doing it and who to target if they want to counter it. More than fair at that point."

Sorry, help me out here. Why are you suggesting this? Why is this fair? Just not clear of what this accomplishes.

Thanks,

Z

I'm looking at this from both sides of the fence. When users of stealth are around it is perfectly fine that reliable tools should be available to spot them if used skillfully.

But on the flip side, as the ganker, if you are going all in on the stealth style of play then your number one tool is of course stealth. Typically you'll find yourself out numbered which is fine as long as they don't know you are there, but once they do they will be on high alert. It only takes one person using detection potions or skills or sets to spot you before the whole group is aware. If you are in the shoes of the stealth player it makes sense that your priority number one is to eliminate that threat first. You take out the guy going for the alarm, right? You are forced to reveal yourself when you attack so I think it's fair that you should at least have some kind of information to aid you in decide who to prioritize in that case.

Before the changes to stealth it felt like the balance leaned heavily in favor of the group seeking out the gankers. After the changes it really feels like the gankers have total control. I'd like to see a little more effort put into honing this balance and I think a few more pushes inward from both directions would help balance things out and tighten up this part of pvp.

CrazyKitty

Cloak is already way too strong considering how strong NB's are in every other aspect these days.

Alharion

The main problem is for stam, you're practically not allowed to play invisibility, and now it's even worse, I think...

Zama666

@Janni for the explanation! Appreciate the clarification!

From my side, stealth is just a skill. Better player get know how to use it. I don't feel it needs any re balancing
And FYI - the most kill on me, are by NBs.

Caecus0

Janni wrote: »

Other than increasing the range of detection potions recently what have they done to affect cloak? Nothing. They made it stronger in fact. It used to be very super unreliable. Dots would pull you out of it. Ground aoes would pull you out of it, and even if you just entered stealth you could still be targeted for a short time afterward. This has all been addressed completely to the favor of nightblades to the point that they can literally use cloak as a mag dodgeroll!

As soon as you spot a nightblade they cloak and even if you are off gcd and immediately hit an aoe they are at a cooldown advantage so they can re-enter cloak before you have time to line up anything else. It literally requires using one of the stealth detection skills or potion now whereas before you could simply cast an aoe once and they easily get a skill off before they could hide again. Cloak is stronger now than I've ever seen it in the past.

And as far as the Sentry set goes... listen. No one is using that set by default, ok? If someone decided to put that on it's because you and your nightblade buddies have been ganking people over and over in the same place for a while and someone got sick of it. Be a little more tactical and don't hang around the same place after you score a few of those really awesome 4v1s.

DoTs do pull Nightblades out of stealth. Just not every DoT does.

Entropy and Elemental Susceptibility (Weakness to Elements Morph) both will pull Night Blades out of Invisibility. The latter of the 2 has become increasingly popular due to how much it does in a single ability.

There are others but I can't think of them off of the top of my head right this second.

Remiem

Caecus0 wrote: »

DoTs do pull Nightblades out of stealth. Just not every DoT does.

Entropy and Elemental Susceptibility (Weakness to Elements Morph) both will pull Night Blades out of Invisibility. The latter of the 2 has become increasingly popular due to how much it does in a single ability.

There are others but I can't think of them off of the top of my head right this second.

Only one bugged DoT left and that's the Structured Entropy morph of Entropy (Degeneration doesn't break cloak), Elemental Susceptibility doesn't.
All the other bugged DoTs that used to break cloak have been fixed afaik (Blackrose destro staff, Oblivion's Foe, Overwhelming Surge etc...)

Stamicka

Invisibility has no place in PvP anymore. It should be removed completely.

OBJnoob

Stamicka wrote: »

Invisibility has no place in PvP anymore. It should be removed completely.

I don't know if this is sarcastic or not, but I about 60% agree. Having played ESO, WoW, and EQ it seems to me that invisibility/NBs/rogues have always been a problem.

The thing is that it just has such a strong RolePlay allure to it, I don't see how a game like this that didn't include it would be well received.

Having someone just appear out of nowhere and borderline 1-shot you just isn't fun or balanced. And I know there's plenty of counterplay... But you can't be expected to have your buffs up and ready to break free and roll dodge every second. Or God forbid if you're already fighting someone else. Or riding your goddang horse.

DrNukenstein

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

I would always see a variation of this statement when it was other classes eating a hefty nerf to the sustain, damage in the patch notes back then. In fact, it was so frequent that there was a period of time where DK, Warden and Sorc mains would dread reading patch notes because a certain lead combat designer would find a way to nerf those classes every patch. Never saw NB get this sort of treatment.

If NB is getting the treatment Necro is getting right now, I'd sympathize. But, I struggle to think of occasion of serial NB nerfs that were accompanied by drastic cost increases damage decreases on top of nerfing the passives that made those nerfed skills semi-functional on every single patch notes. All the while buffing a skill no one really asked for (remember ZOS' fixation on Stone Giant?) by a very negligible margin before reverting that buff and then buffing again after few strings of even more nerfs. That is essentially what Necro is going through and as someone who mained every classes at their before settling with DK at its weakest period when no one really played, I sympathize with Necros the most.

-They totally gutted the whole kit in Elseweyr, massive massive nerfs to the fluidity of the class. Read those patch notes.

-Update 35 practically eliminated the ganker kit, and replaced it with a brawler kit. It was a side-grade, I like the burst heal. I really miss busted crouch heavies, the crutch proc that was totally out of line, and crushing weapon weaves from stealth. It took power from one playstyle and gave it to the other.

-People are building way tankier, without dropping meaningful damage. It is a pressure meta and NB is a burst class. The direction of the meta the past few patches have been a nerf to the class, by virtue of all other classes having better kits for pressure. Who's playing dot-tank NB?

-Changes to detect pots, elemental susceptibility and the supposed bug with the MG dot all break stealth and these are new things. It is an oppressive environment for a ganker, not so much a brawler engaging in brawler play patterns.

Not saying NB is weak, but it's strong in a very different way from how it was several patches back and it doesn't seem to make anyone happy except the people that enjoy playing brawler blade. I mean it's kind of fun to be able to hang in a team fight, but it's not as fun as actually being able to one shot with no setup at all.

Stamicka

OBJnoob wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Invisibility has no place in PvP anymore. It should be removed completely.

I don't know if this is sarcastic or not, but I about 60% agree. Having played ESO, WoW, and EQ it seems to me that invisibility/NBs/rogues have always been a problem.

The thing is that it just has such a strong RolePlay allure to it, I don't see how a game like this that didn't include it would be well received.

Having someone just appear out of nowhere and borderline 1-shot you just isn't fun or balanced. And I know there's plenty of counterplay... But you can't be expected to have your buffs up and ready to break free and roll dodge every second. Or God forbid if you're already fighting someone else. Or riding your goddang horse.

It’s not sarcastic. I don’t mind if you can cloak or stealth in PvE zones, but in PvP it has no place. It’s just way too strong as a defensive skills and its counters aren’t widely accessible enough and they don’t work well enough. It would be better if it was out of PvP completely. Cloak could still be an escape skill. Maybe it can give a unique movement speed buff with snare immunity, but you shouldn’t be able to go invisible,

SaffronCitrusflower

Ramping cost for cloak is the solution to the cloakblade problem in my opinion. I know this issue has been ongoing for years, and the NB's crutching on cloak get really defensive, but one or two consecutive cloaks during battle should be more than enough for anyone. It's just fundamentally unfair if one player can continue to do damage while invisible and the other can't. Sure, there are counters, but the only counter that works reliably are the new extended range detect pots.

FoJul

Galeriano wrote: »

Sedare38 wrote: »

get rid of stealth completely already

Pretty harsh but if Sedare wants that I can't disagree.

Fake sedare

Zama666

Let's give EVERYONE CLOAK!!!

Thank a Romulan!

Sedare38

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Ramping cost for cloak is the solution to the cloakblade problem in my opinion. I know this issue has been ongoing for years, and the NB's crutching on cloak get really defensive, but one or two consecutive cloaks during battle should be more than enough for anyone. It's just fundamentally unfair if one player can continue to do damage while invisible and the other can't. Sure, there are counters, but the only counter that works reliably are the new extended range detect pots.

i disagree with this. ramping cloak would be a death sentence to stamblades. cloak does not get you away speedily or move you a far distance like teleport. It makes you hide. There are simply too many counters to that. one or two isn't enough when going through a gaggle of people, trying to sneak into an open door of a keep that's besieged, etc. You need more than that based on duration alone and AOEs on the ground knocking you out of stealth + the myriad of other ways. spamming cloak when there are 6 ways to sunday of seeing you or breaking it does nothing. Also you're not doing damage while cloaking. you cloak, then do damage and there are things beyond detect pots that break cloak immediately upon cast.

so again, kindly and respectfully disagree.

Sedare38

FoJul wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

Sedare38 wrote: »

get rid of stealth completely already

Pretty harsh but if Sedare wants that I can't disagree.

Fake sedare

imitation is the best form of flattery and i often imitate but never duplicate myself.

SaffronCitrusflower

Sedare38 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Ramping cost for cloak is the solution to the cloakblade problem in my opinion. I know this issue has been ongoing for years, and the NB's crutching on cloak get really defensive, but one or two consecutive cloaks during battle should be more than enough for anyone. It's just fundamentally unfair if one player can continue to do damage while invisible and the other can't. Sure, there are counters, but the only counter that works reliably are the new extended range detect pots.

i disagree with this. ramping cloak would be a death sentence to stamblades. cloak does not get you away speedily or move you a far distance like teleport. It makes you hide. There are simply too many counters to that. one or two isn't enough when going through a gaggle of people, trying to sneak into an open door of a keep that's besieged, etc. You need more than that based on duration alone and AOEs on the ground knocking you out of stealth + the myriad of other ways. spamming cloak when there are 6 ways to sunday of seeing you or breaking it does nothing. Also you're not doing damage while cloaking. you cloak, then do damage and there are things beyond detect pots that break cloak immediately upon cast.

so again, kindly and respectfully disagree.

Except cloak does come with a speed bonus, and does get you away speedily and allow the player to move a far distance away from the fight while invisible. Ramping cost wouldn't be a death sentence for cloakblades. It would just mean that if they want to start a fight they'd have to participate in that fight or run away as opposed to conducting the entire fight while invisible.

NB's seem to feel they are entitled to have the strongest burst heal in the game, the strongest burst damage in the game, all the while being invisible in combat. It's simply not reasonable or fair what most NB's expect to have working in their favor at all times.

And none of the things NB's like to claim pull them out of cloak so easily are as reliable as they claim.

NB's just need to learn to fight if they're going to go in for their gank and it doesn't work out as they planned.

IZZEFlameLash

DrNukenstein wrote: »

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

I would always see a variation of this statement when it was other classes eating a hefty nerf to the sustain, damage in the patch notes back then. In fact, it was so frequent that there was a period of time where DK, Warden and Sorc mains would dread reading patch notes because a certain lead combat designer would find a way to nerf those classes every patch. Never saw NB get this sort of treatment.

If NB is getting the treatment Necro is getting right now, I'd sympathize. But, I struggle to think of occasion of serial NB nerfs that were accompanied by drastic cost increases damage decreases on top of nerfing the passives that made those nerfed skills semi-functional on every single patch notes. All the while buffing a skill no one really asked for (remember ZOS' fixation on Stone Giant?) by a very negligible margin before reverting that buff and then buffing again after few strings of even more nerfs. That is essentially what Necro is going through and as someone who mained every classes at their before settling with DK at its weakest period when no one really played, I sympathize with Necros the most.

-They totally gutted the whole kit in Elseweyr, massive massive nerfs to the fluidity of the class. Read those patch notes.

-Update 35 practically eliminated the ganker kit, and replaced it with a brawler kit. It was a side-grade, I like the burst heal. I really miss busted crouch heavies, the crutch proc that was totally out of line, and crushing weapon weaves from stealth. It took power from one playstyle and gave it to the other.

-People are building way tankier, without dropping meaningful damage. It is a pressure meta and NB is a burst class. The direction of the meta the past few patches have been a nerf to the class, by virtue of all other classes having better kits for pressure. Who's playing dot-tank NB?

-Changes to detect pots, elemental susceptibility and the supposed bug with the MG dot all break stealth and these are new things. It is an oppressive environment for a ganker, not so much a brawler engaging in brawler play patterns.

Not saying NB is weak, but it's strong in a very different way from how it was several patches back and it doesn't seem to make anyone happy except the people that enjoy playing brawler blade. I mean it's kind of fun to be able to hang in a team fight, but it's not as fun as actually being able to one shot with no setup at all.

Ganking only really died for all the other classes and even if a player engages in such a build, their success rate and survival rate is far lesser than NB. NB ganking is alive and well. If it wasn't the best gank class, wonder why almost all the gankers and bombers are NBs since the beginning of TESO as a game.

Speaking of tanky, amongest the tankiest is NB, right next to Warden and on par with DK or sometimes even better than DK because their burst heal is cheaper which means they can spam that for longer. If all else fails, there's always cloak to fall back to especially if you are experienced with the class. No other classes can escape like NB. There's nothing more tanky than having fat burst heal on top of having an ability to not be targeted for few seconds. Isn't that why almost all bow gankblades wanted DK reflect removed? Because it allowed DK to be extra tanky by being unable to be targeted with ranged attacks.

I suppose you could argue Sorcs are good at escaping. But they are not as good as NB in terms of escaping because their main escape ability ate ramping cost nerf, and cost increase nerf. So there's a limit to it even if you were to have all the sustain in the world. Currently, NB can indefinitely stay in cloak if they wish.

Detect pots require the defending player to sacrifice their potion cooldown and within that cooldown period, they might sustain enough damage and resource drain to die without access to tri-pots. And more often than not, a half-decent NB would have LoS'd or even flat out just delete the detect pot user. Only time you can catch would be when the NB in question is not experienced with the class. Or you yourself is a NB in stealth with detect pot.

merevie

"This has all been addressed completely" -yeah nah.

Agree with Sedare - enemy players message me with, 'you do realize you were constantly popping out of stealth?".

Still playing old school glass blade and if seen/dead.

Who sees us? Sorcs, mostly. Then pretty much anyone who can press Q.

Bombers are a whole different ball game, but I think the way they're doing right now is super fun and hands off!

Zabulus

Stealth is so useless i started to play my magblade without.
And i realized i didn't need stealth anymore.
Blinding flare > stealth. Thats the sad truth about NB.

YetAnotherLinuxUser

my 2 cents. i want stealth to run inviso in cyro and gather books and shards and not be bothered by others pvp play. so if solo play buff it and if group play reduce it. i just want reviving barrier for my pve play after all. any self respecting healer needs it for vet dungeons and trials.

CrazyKitty

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Sedare38 wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

Ramping cost for cloak is the solution to the cloakblade problem in my opinion. I know this issue has been ongoing for years, and the NB's crutching on cloak get really defensive, but one or two consecutive cloaks during battle should be more than enough for anyone. It's just fundamentally unfair if one player can continue to do damage while invisible and the other can't. Sure, there are counters, but the only counter that works reliably are the new extended range detect pots.

i disagree with this. ramping cloak would be a death sentence to stamblades. cloak does not get you away speedily or move you a far distance like teleport. It makes you hide. There are simply too many counters to that. one or two isn't enough when going through a gaggle of people, trying to sneak into an open door of a keep that's besieged, etc. You need more than that based on duration alone and AOEs on the ground knocking you out of stealth + the myriad of other ways. spamming cloak when there are 6 ways to sunday of seeing you or breaking it does nothing. Also you're not doing damage while cloaking. you cloak, then do damage and there are things beyond detect pots that break cloak immediately upon cast.

so again, kindly and respectfully disagree.

Except cloak does come with a speed bonus, and does get you away speedily and allow the player to move a far distance away from the fight while invisible. Ramping cost wouldn't be a death sentence for cloakblades. It would just mean that if they want to start a fight they'd have to participate in that fight or run away as opposed to conducting the entire fight while invisible.

NB's seem to feel they are entitled to have the strongest burst heal in the game, the strongest burst damage in the game, all the while being invisible in combat. It's simply not reasonable or fair what most NB's expect to have working in their favor at all times.

And none of the things NB's like to claim pull them out of cloak so easily are as reliable as they claim.

NB's just need to learn to fight if they're going to go in for their gank and it doesn't work out as they planned.

so much this. If NB's want to start a fight, they should have to fight fair, not expect to conduct an entire encounter while invisible until all their enemies are dead.

tokeinskyblu

So who is killing the enemies if nightblade is in stealth the whole fight?

Zabulus

tokeinskyblu wrote: »

So who is killing the enemies if nightblade is in stealth the whole fight?

ahahah ^^

Bushido2513

Due to movement speed, good hots/burst heal, high recoveries, etc a reveal really isn't that harmful to a NB that knows the basics of the kit.

I actually think reveals could last 2 seconds longer but I'm also going to say that a fight right a revealed NB can go a few different ways depending on the class and build you play on. Meaning some will be more able to stand up to their damage and counter while others may stay pressured on the back bar or just flat out get nuked

Galeriano

tokeinskyblu wrote: »

So who is killing the enemies if nightblade is in stealth the whole fight?

As funny as this question may be it kinda hints at issue of how much pressure even presence of enemy nb adds to the fight. If You know that there is some nb sniper around and You are fighting someone else You will never be able to play as effectively as You would against 2 visible enemies. Nightblade can have control over the battlefield with way less input than regular non stealth playstyles.

Bushido2513

Galeriano wrote: »

tokeinskyblu wrote: »

So who is killing the enemies if nightblade is in stealth the whole fight?

As funny as this question may be it kinda hints at issue of how much pressure even presence of enemy nb adds to the fight. If You know that there is some nb sniper around and You are fighting someone else You will never be able to play as effectively as You would against 2 visible enemies. Nightblade can have control over the battlefield with way less input than regular non stealth playstyles.

This isn't really an issue if you just account for it in planning.

This is why I don't play outnumbered without having los available. You're only winning an outnumbered fight if your opponents are worse than you. So if you're using los and the NB is bad you'll possibly win the fight.

On the other hand if both players are better than you, together they both are better than you, or even one is better than you then you'll possibly just lose the fight no matter the class or if you're aware of them.

For example depending on the class you're playing 2 dot pressure builds could delete you no matter what you do if they play correctly. Compare that to say 3 cloaking nbs that just don't heal that well or rely on numbers over skill. You'll probably have more of a chance to respond and use los in the NB fight.

So I wouldn't say NB adds any significant pressure just by existing and being invisible. It's the quality of the NB and how prepared the player is that dictates a lot of the pressure someone may or may not feel.

OBJnoob

I think you both have a point and the truth is in the middle.

You don't always know if the NB is talented or not, and you may be forced to miss potential burst windows on the other person to re-up on buffs or HoTs in case you get snuck up on.