munster1404 wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

we don't have tanks because it's exhausting to play them. Pulling, managing buffs and debuufs, taunting everything... Soloing or fake tanking with a taunt is more enjoyable imo. Tanking bosses is okayish, but trashpacks not so much. I'm usually done after a couple of runs as a real tank.
If tanks had easier (not set-based) aoe pulls and aoe taunts AND more outcoming damage it would be much more satisfying to play them. Just my two coins.

Apart from that, I never got blamed in random vets. Yeah, I die sometimes, but it's okay the next time if it's only my fault. The group is usually okay with that

But you are not supposed to taunt everything, especially trash mobs. You identify the pesky/more damaging ones, hold them while DPS whittle them down.

Edit : for goodness sake, Arcanist DPS please stop slotting the first ability of the Soldier of Apocrypha skill line; Runic Jolt. Read the tooltip, it's a taunt. I had one player using this skill on Sellistrix which started chasing him. Fellow then goes about accusing me of not holding taunt.

So much this lol. I will also find people using ice staff with clench and then be like- why you not taunting 🙃 oh you sweet summer child. This literally just comes from ppl not reading tool tips.

Elrond87 wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

There arent enough and no one branches out because being a new tank is awful. People treat you like garbage. Tank mechs and dps mechs are not the same. Im dealing with this now. Im an endgame dps. Hm/trifecta level. As a tank in vet dungeons (dlc) i can hold mobs and bosses, keep up buffs ect but i simply dont always know if i have to bring a mob to a particular spot, how a boss might get enraged by x thing, what hits i can take and what i cant. You learn by doing. Dps dont worry about that.They go pew pew. Half the time they are standing behind you or pulling agro or dragging aoes into your face.

You dont have tanks because you treat new tanks like dirt. Do better and you'll have more tanks. That simple.

also not so many tanks cause dps is snail pace i just leave half the time because of that

Thing is at a snail pace on some dungeons you simply won't clear at that pace anyway like vsr. Too many adds spawn at final and it will eventually drain you from poison and just tanking the boss as well as killing the dps, usually first. I know, ive spent an hour in there trying to effectively solo dps the boss. I can do it in some situations for some vet dungeons if the tank can stay up but frankly it becomes a big ask at a certain point unless you are a very experienced one.

Fake tanking is garbage, fake healing is not so bad, because you usually don't need a lot of healing. Slot Echoing Vigor as stam DD and ur good.

jbrianj wrote: »

Fake tanking is garbage, fake healing is not so bad, because you usually don't need a lot of healing. Slot Echoing Vigor as stam DD and ur good.

Heavily dependent on the content. If you are running a vet and expecting a hm at a min you should be bringing orbs or some synergies for the tank.

Jaimeh wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I don't think anyone treats tanks badly, at least I've never seen that, and I've PUGed extensively and in a variety of content. In fact I've seen quite the opposite: groups being really patient with low CP tanks that kept dying because they couldn't take certain hits, or didn't know the fight well enough, and the group adjusting their whole build to help them. I've seen this happening quite a few times, and also in trials, which is a lot more painful having a newbie tank, but usually everyone is being patient exactly because the game needs more tanks. I main dps, but I have a tank that I sometimes do some vet content with, and it's not as tragic as you portray it; yes you have to learn to do good stacks, and learn the boss' patterns, but if you know mechanics really well as a dps, a lot of things translate over, not to mention that as a dps you should know the boss' patterns too because if the tank dies or loses aggro, you have to know when to dodge when kiting, etc., to survive until the tank is rezzed. Anyway, I think it's awesome you are trying out tanking, keep at it and don't get disappointed if you found some players who were impatient (did they actually treat you like dirt, what did they say exactly? Maybe it was your own anxiety at the new role that made you feel you had to do well?), I can attest that tanks are really appreciated by the playerbase.

Hmm you must have missed the post where i said that ive seen this across the board both as a dd, healer, and now as a tank. As a dd id actually gotten whispers from other players in dungeons saying things that went well beyond the tank being "bad". Ive seen it at great length might i add. This aint just about me. Its about what ive seen across my years of playing the game. Ive seen players make straight up personal attacks at "bad" tanks. Many times in fact. For me? I die once to a mech, figure it out and clear. After 2 day i was pretty competent, well capable of doing most vet dlcs and holding it down in some hardmodes as well. In times where i have screwed up you would think i had personally insulted someone. So no, its not "anxiety". I said earlier that seeing this so much while functioning in other roles was why i didnt do it for ages....

[snip]

You can take or leave the encouragement, but having a different experience and impression of something is not gaslighting. If someone whispered you about the tank in your group being beyond bad, did they also say that to the tank directly? If not, then how did the mistreatment take place? Also, did they players who made those comment across the times you mention also dissed bad DDs? Because then it's a completely different case of competent players probably getting nasty towards inexperienced players, and that can happen across roles, though like I've said, I've never noticed a tank bullying trend. In fact I've seen quite the opposite: groups being very patient and cooperating with newbie tanks (not to mention, in most finder pugs people are mostly grateful to have a real tank there anyway, let alone trying to antagonize them on purpose).

[edited to remove quote]

Ive given specific examples, i experienced this multiple times in a single day. Once because i told someone something as simple as to stop taking taunt. Ive also been told i was a crap tank because i wasnt doing things that common strategy dictate are a dd responsibility amongst other things. Yesterday i told a group this was my first time tanking that dungeon and they just left. I told you id seen this done both privately and in group chat and you are disounting my experience as somehow less valid then yours? Ive pugged everything from normals to skin runs to hard mode content so excuse me if if im not exacly sure how that works. I rarely see dds put up with the same nonsense. Why? Welp because a less experienced dd is common place and can frequently protected by a more experienced player, it is rarely make or break for the team. Ive been in that situation more times then i can count. Tanks however do make or break the team which is why ive seen them draw more of this. They cant hide behind anyone.

So look- you can have your opinions and i can have mine. The fact remains the tanks do not show up in gf and im telling you my related experience which had also been shared by several of my friends who main tanks and no longer pug as a result. There are folks the main tank right in this thread saying that it is thankless and always their fault. That was the very first thing i was told by one of my tank friends after i recounted one of these experiences. If something goes wrong its always your fault and he's been playing since launch.

Im glad you havent personally experienced this but that doesnt make it untrue.

Im gonna add one further thing here:

In my time as a dd i have had exactly 2 instances that i was openly trashed by another player for not being a good dd. In all the years ive played, 2 times. As a tank that happened several times in a matter of days.

Daoin wrote: »

there are no tanks in gf because its rubbish and outdated, hopefully the new upcoming system will be enough for all roles to atleast enjoy random groups again slightly

Sure bud. You a support main by chance? How is it the que being "outdated" somehow only affects tanks. Makes zero sense.

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

AlterBlika wrote: »

we don't have tanks because it's exhausting to play them. Pulling, managing buffs and debuufs, taunting everything... Soloing or fake tanking with a taunt is more enjoyable imo. Tanking bosses is okayish, but trashpacks not so much. I'm usually done after a couple of runs as a real tank.
If tanks had easier (not set-based) aoe pulls and aoe taunts AND more outcoming damage it would be much more satisfying to play them. Just my two coins.

Apart from that, I never got blamed in random vets. Yeah, I die sometimes, but it's okay the next time if it's only my fault. The group is usually okay with that

One of the most satisfying tanks I ever played was the Thunderbug/Grothdar/leaching plate tank back when proc sets could proc off eachother. That kind of tank isn't even viable anymore because of the changes, but for any dungeon with a ton of trash mobs, it was a ton of fun to play (albeit a very selfish build).

I think the real problem is that it takes a different kind of player to be a good tank, just like it takes a different kind of player to be a really good healer. In a game that is really ruled by the almighty "DPS," tanking is just far less satisfying to play. Its a thankless job, and you're really only there to provide group buffs and control the boss action and to do mechanics. If they made it easier to have fun/engaging tank builds while still being able to provide group utility, then I think it would be easier to lure people into trying tanking. For now, its a thankless job and one that really intimidates players because your failures are obvious.

And random players aren't friendly when it comes to going through that learning curve.

I mean they can be pretty dirt period. Im doing vet stuff because:

- im capable, even as a new tank i know a fair bit because ive dps'd all of it. Im still getting used to tank specifics but i have a leg up.

- I want to be able to do my job which really isnt a thing in normals.

Here s an excerpt from yesterday about how tanks are treated in gf, not just new ones but in general. I qued as a tank for a random with my friend who was a dps, a good one as well as a solid tank. Anyway we ended up in moongrave with a low level healer and dps, around 350cp. No problem, its a random, i expect that from time to time. My issue came when said people bolted ahead, agroed the trash and left me and my friend to deal with it. They then proceeded to start pushing all the blocks to the wrong pads while assuring us they had done this dungeon before, my friend then asked them to stop. Immediately after one of them again ran ahead and into the next trash pack and died. I told them to stop or i we would leave. Said player then became belligerent. We left. Immediately after which i got a slew of whispers about how they were going for a speed run and they didnt have to follow my rules with some things i won't repeat and how they completed without us. Which was painfully obviously a carry. My terrible sin? Just wanting todo my job as the tank. That's one of a just a few situations i ran into yesterday with people being garbage or disrespectful.

It happens, a lot. This is one of many reasons tanks only run with their teams. Thats why fake tanks end up being such an issue or the que is obscenely long.

Honestly, this crap happens from time to time regardless of what role you play. The best way to avoid this crap is to have a pre-made group to run harder content. I usually don't run vet content with the groupfinder unless its a pledge I know me and a teammate can complete with just the two of us precisely for this reason. There are just a lot of ignorant players in the game, and sometimes they just need to be silenced (with the mute/block feature of course).

You made my point though. Im saying tanks dont use gf for these reasons. They all run premade groups as i am doing now. My 2 raid leads responses yesterday when i mentioned this were as follows "welcome to support, where everyone knows how to do your job better then you" and "that is why we have a hard time developing and keeping supports". Two of my tank friends responded with "yeah thats normal, its always the tanks fault". As i mentioned previously, as a dps i encountered this 2x in all the years ive played vs many times in just the last 3 days".

Daoin wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Daoin wrote: »

there are no tanks in gf because its rubbish and outdated, hopefully the new upcoming system will be enough for all roles to atleast enjoy random groups again slightly

Sure bud. You a support main by chance? How is it the que being "outdated" somehow only affects tanks. Makes zero sense.

all 3 roles i main, with my other characters i play less due to gf being crap and full of egoists at the moment. i'm hoping the new system improves things but not holding my breath

The upcoming system isnt a que of any kind. More like a bulletin type thing. I doubt it sees much use for "daily randoms" probably more for those who are planning to trya bunch of content with a group. But who knows.

pelle412 wrote: »

My main is a tank. I started ESO right when Morrowind expansion was released. As a prior Skyrim/Oblivion player I was attracted to the play-as-you-want selling point so I started doing quests fully geared as a tank. This is truly an awful experience as I learned quickly. The amount of damage you do in a full tank setup vs a DPS is around 1:10. In other games, being in a tank spec you do maybe half of the damage a full DPS does and it is generally totally fine to play like that in overland content and quests.

I tanked dungeons in the beginning. Sometimes, however infrequent, someone provided some "guidance" or comment on my performance. ESO doesn't offer any guidance at all, so I did plenty of research on my own so that I was always prepared. I think if others here are finding it such an awful experience tanking dungeons then it could just simply be a case of unpreparedness. There is an expectation that you have a grasp of what you are doing. It's not a written rule, but it's there and it's there in every game I played. If you for example decide to tank a dungeon in WoW and you don't know what you're doing, the players will let you know what they think about that.

There is a difference between guidence and bashing which is what im referring to and to say i was unprepared is not accurate since several of the things they took issue with are in fact not the job of the tank period or were very much the job of the tank and people took issue when i asked that i be able to do it. I have excellent guidence from many friends who are endgame tanks. Im capable but not optimal thats a big difference. I actually have had friends there to walk me through mehanics that i was less familiar at different points in some cases and was able to execute them well sans having less then excellent buff uptime, no wipes, i stayed alive kept agro on what i was supposed to and positioned correctly. Still got trashed because i didnt do it the way they wanted, didnt want to do a hm, told them I wasnt capable of x achievement (in vet). And that was having with having someone who had run said content countless times as a tank. I sent him my pov. He told me i did a good job, but my buff uptime was pretty bad which i have no reason to question because this guy tells me how it is. When i was first learning as a dps he told me my rotation was straight up terrible and i was missing procs all over. So not the kind of person who worries to much about being gentle because he knows i want to get better, difference is he will tell me how to do that not insult me and leave.

I have the benefit of experience from others and know where to go to find additional resources. Many new tanks do not know the resources available and so learn through experience until someone tells them that. In the mean time things tend to be difficult.

pelle412 wrote: »

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I have the benefit of experience from others and know where to go to find additional resources. Many new tanks do not know the resources available and so learn through experience until someone tells them that. In the mean time things tend to be difficult.

I did not have the benefit of others teaching me. I taught myself via resources I could find and still had very few "bad comments". If that happens to you frequently I am not sure what the reason is. I also don't know any endgame DPS players who don't understand the basics of tanking. Every skilled DPS player I met who tried tanking didn't have any problems adapting to it.

This isnt a question of adapting to it. I have and am adapting to it. I tanked a dungeon dlc hm my 3rd day althought i hadnt planned it, a dps just activated it without consulting me or the team at all and it was a dungeon in which it cant be deactivated without a wipe. So we tried it. Im most certainly not the only person i know who has had this experience obviously as i have seen it done to others, personally experienced it and discussed with several of my tank buddies who told me that was their experience as well and they no longer pug as a result even though this ways quite a while ago for them and they are well established tanks now, they prefer to run with their own groups. Some of the situations i brought up werent even directly related to me being a bad tank just that i didnt or wouldnt do what they wanted, i wanted to do my job as a tank and not have them run ahead and die in vet dungeons, i didnt want to tank their achievement run, didnt feel comfortable doing x hm. Thats not me being a bad tank. Its me knowing my limits, its decisions i should be allowed to make as the tank. Period.

So look im way past arguing my experience at this point and what i have observed over the years of playing. Have your opinions. The fact is the gf is still empty of tanks, they all run with premades and pretty much all the ones i know share this experience to some degree.

SandandStars wrote: »

I pvp, and only pve occasionally for gear.

[snip]

I could care less if it takes a few more minutes to clear a dungeon, and sometimes I’ll just block and tank for awhile.

[snip]

Aint "taking a few extra mins" its not clearing at all and wasting ppls time

[edited to remove quote]