A Cure for Cheating

Jierdanit · August 2023

Marcus684 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Off_The_Chain wrote: »

I watched the video. I'm both hopeful and terrified. AI says one in three players are cheating. That sounds about right, I would have guessed more.

That number is beyond ridiculous.
I have played several thousand hours of PvP in ESO and in that whole time ive encountered like 10 players who i thought might have been cheating in any way, with not a single one of them being on a level that i felt worth reporting.

On the other hand I have been accused of cheating by tons of players, simply because they do not understand what is achievable in this game, because they dont know how to properly play the game.
That is why i have a problem with people saying that there is tons of cheating going on. I dont doubt that some people in the game are cheating, but its not even a fraction of what you claim it is (at least not in ESO).

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

You don't know how many people cheat, I don't know how many people cheat, and I doubt even ZOS knows how many people cheat. All I can say for sure is that I consider myself a very average PvPer who runs into players that completely mop the floor with me on a regular basis, until there's a crackdown on cheating, and then suddenly most of those formerly elite players are absent. Coincidence?

All i know is that a lot of players just start accusing people of cheating as soon as they cant beat them or if they do something they cant.

Also if there are as many people cheating as you might think then they are really not doing a great job at it or are barely doing anything, because while i am not bad at PvP I'm certainly not the best player either and I basically never fight anyone who "mops the floor with me". If I die i will usually know why i died and what i can try to do to not die next time, a lot of people just dont understand what killed them and immediately jump to "they must be cheating".

So i dont have a lot of faith in people claiming other players are cheating, since most of it is, at least from personal experience, simply wrong and just them not being able to accept that theyre bad at the game.

Marcus684 · August 2023

Jierdanit wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Off_The_Chain wrote: »

I watched the video. I'm both hopeful and terrified. AI says one in three players are cheating. That sounds about right, I would have guessed more.

That number is beyond ridiculous.
I have played several thousand hours of PvP in ESO and in that whole time ive encountered like 10 players who i thought might have been cheating in any way, with not a single one of them being on a level that i felt worth reporting.

On the other hand I have been accused of cheating by tons of players, simply because they do not understand what is achievable in this game, because they dont know how to properly play the game.
That is why i have a problem with people saying that there is tons of cheating going on. I dont doubt that some people in the game are cheating, but its not even a fraction of what you claim it is (at least not in ESO).

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

You don't know how many people cheat, I don't know how many people cheat, and I doubt even ZOS knows how many people cheat. All I can say for sure is that I consider myself a very average PvPer who runs into players that completely mop the floor with me on a regular basis, until there's a crackdown on cheating, and then suddenly most of those formerly elite players are absent. Coincidence?

All i know is that a lot of players just start accusing people of cheating as soon as they cant beat them or if they do something they cant.

Also if there are as many people cheating as you might think then they are really not doing a great job at it or are barely doing anything, because while i am not bad at PvP I'm certainly not the best player either and I basically never fight anyone who "mops the floor with me". If I die i will usually know why i died and what i can try to do to not die next time, a lot of people just dont understand what killed them and immediately jump to "they must be cheating".

So i dont have a lot of faith in people claiming other players are cheating, since most of it is, at least from personal experience, simply wrong and just them not being able to accept that theyre bad at the game.

I can't deny what you say. Even I've been accused of cheating, which is absolutely hilarious if you've ever fought me. I have no doubt that the majority of cheating claims are either ignorance due to lack of understanding, or malicious due to someone losing.

My assumption is that long-term cheaters have a good sense of how far they can push things without being detected and banned, but even they will get nervous and take a break when word gets around about a wave of bans. It's the careless cheaters and those that always try to push the envelope just a little farther that usually get the banhammer.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Off_The_Chain wrote: »

I watched the video. I'm both hopeful and terrified. AI says one in three players are cheating. That sounds about right, I would have guessed more.

That number is beyond ridiculous.
I have played several thousand hours of PvP in ESO and in that whole time ive encountered like 10 players who i thought might have been cheating in any way, with not a single one of them being on a level that i felt worth reporting.

On the other hand I have been accused of cheating by tons of players, simply because they do not understand what is achievable in this game, because they dont know how to properly play the game.
That is why i have a problem with people saying that there is tons of cheating going on. I dont doubt that some people in the game are cheating, but its not even a fraction of what you claim it is (at least not in ESO).

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

You don't know how many people cheat, I don't know how many people cheat, and I doubt even ZOS knows how many people cheat. All I can say for sure is that I consider myself a very average PvPer who runs into players that completely mop the floor with me on a regular basis, until there's a crackdown on cheating, and then suddenly most of those formerly elite players are absent. Coincidence?

But you don't even know when there's a crackdown on cheating. It's not like ZOS announces when they have a ban wave.

Oh but we do, sometimes. ZOS has twice publicly posted announcements about cheating bans that I can recall off the top of my head, and there have undoubtedly been others.

Orchish · August 2023

There is a certain player on PC EU Gray host who is able to change alliance daily with the same character on the alliance locked server, he also takes scrolls from unsieged keeps daily among other things. Even our own alliance call him out on his BS when he does it, but here we are months later and he still plays and still does the exact same behaviour but no action is taken. If you play on PC EU, then you likely know who i am talking about.

Tigor · August 2023

To stop cheating report cheaters.

Amottica · August 2023

Not sure why we would want a system that would permit cheating by any manner as that seems to be what is suggested. Even then, it will increase costs in all games that would subscribe to this new service since it would clearly have cost. Then there are the increased costs of designing a game system to utilize such data.

On top of that, the new service would still deal with what games deal with now. They have to discover new means cheater find to exploit before they take action. In other words, it is a pipe dream to think the service could create an environment free of cheating.

We can stick with the old fashion way and ban those players found to be cheating. They are not worthy to play the games we play.

GooGa592 · August 2023

Today I got an oft reported player down to zero health more than 5 times and they did not die. Then they teabagged me when I finally died.

So ya, they cheat then they behave badly after winning the fight because they're cheating. It can get a bit frustrating.

Off_The_Chain · August 2023

@Amottica
Thanks for your post. [snip] How on earth do you get "Not sure why we would permit cheating by any manner as that seems to be what is suggested" from what I wrote? No really, how? That is the literal opposite of what I'm trying to achieve. It is however, a perfectly apt description of the actual state of pvp right now. It's possible the gaming industry could afford this without passing any costs on to us. As to whether or not they will, I have no idea. Let's look at the costs for a second. How much time and effort do you think it would take for coders to insert a few lines of code to separate verified players from everyone else during matchmaking? Not much. How about making in game reporting go directly to this company? Doesn't seem that complex or expensive; it certainly doesn't look like designing a game system. How many employees would this company need? I'm not sure. But I do believe that after the first six months to a year, it's going to be very boring at this company. Remember, we only have to catch a cheater once, One Time, and then we never have to worry about them again. They can go play with the rest of the unverified population cheating to their hearts content. Maybe even A.I. could do it, or interns, or out of work coders. "They have to discover new means cheater find to exploit" No, I don't think so. The cheaters have been pushing the envelope for years, I doubt there's anything "new" coming. They pretty much did as much damage as possible. "We can stick to the old fashion way and ban those players..." Yea, because that's worked out so very well. I've rarely seen anything so ineffectual in my whole life. Even if some punishment actually worked as intended, you can just go buy someone else's account or start a new character with a different ip address. You want to know why cheating is so prevalent? Because there's no real consequences to it. That's why. And until that changes all pvp will remain the dumpster fire that it is.

Pipe Dream? No, this is a great idea and entirely possible. It solves cheating in pvp by pushing the responsibility of a player's own actions back on them. Rules and TOS put out by game companies will get their power back. We (non-cheaters) get the experience we always wanted from the time of purchase. The cheaters can keep on cheating. Game companies no longer have to watch pvp or waste time and resources with band-aid fixes. This sure looks like a big win to me. Oh, and let's not forget that the popularity of games old and new could go through the roof.

[edited for baiting]

Amottica · August 2023

Off_The_Chain wrote: »

@Amottica
Thanks for your post. [snip] How on earth do you get "Not sure why we would permit cheating by any manner as that seems to be what is suggested" from what I wrote?
No really, how? That is the literal opposite of what I'm trying to achieve. It is however, a perfectly apt description of the actual state of pvp right now. It's possible the gaming industry could afford this without passing any costs on to us. As to whether or not they will, I have no idea. Let's look at the costs for a second. How much time and effort do you think it would take for coders to insert a few lines of code to separate verified players from everyone else during matchmaking? Not much. How about making in game reporting go directly to this company? Doesn't seem that complex or expensive; it certainly doesn't look like designing a game system. How many employees would this company need? I'm not sure. But I do believe that after the first six months to a year, it's going to be very boring at this company. Remember, we only have to catch a cheater once, One Time, and then we never have to worry about them again. They can go play with the rest of the unverified population cheating to their hearts content. Maybe even A.I. could do it, or interns, or out of work coders. "They have to discover new means cheater find to exploit" No, I don't think so. The cheaters have been pushing the envelope for years, I doubt there's anything "new" coming. They pretty much did as much damage as possible. "We can stick to the old fashion way and ban those players..." Yea, because that's worked out so very well. I've rarely seen anything so ineffectual in my whole life. Even if some punishment actually worked as intended, you can just go buy someone else's account or start a new character with a different ip address. You want to know why cheating is so prevalent? Because there's no real consequences to it. That's why. And until that changes all pvp will remain the dumpster fire that it is.

Pipe Dream? No, this is a great idea and entirely possible. It solves cheating in pvp by pushing the responsibility of a player's own actions back on them. Rules and TOS put out by game companies will get their power back. We (non-cheaters) get the experience we always wanted from the time of purchase. The cheaters can keep on cheating. Game companies no longer have to watch pvp or waste time and resources with band-aid fixes. This sure looks like a big win to me. Oh, and let's not forget that the popularity of games old and new could go through the roof.

Off_The_Chain wrote: »

Cheaters can't be stopped.
Let's start right there. Over the last two decades the prevalence of cheating in online pvp games has gone from annoying to mainstream. Around every next corner is somebodies' macro, or glitching, or aim bot, or ESP, or whatever, in every single game. The idea of competitive gameplay is a downright joke, and everyone knows it. Many like me just abandoned what passes for pvp long ago and went pve anything.

So, what do I want? I want a fair and competitive pvp online experience. I want the joy of landing a kill on a player that I know is better then me. Or conversely, I want the joy of pressuring weaker players and staying "on top" for as long as I can. I want a REAL game. I want the real experience, real reputation, true victories and defeats. I want to be able to learn from my mistakes without questioning the integrity of the event. Does anyone else feel this way? Never has online gaming been so far from that. So, here's an idea that could give us a glimpse of that impossible future. Oh, and I'd like to get paid for my ideas.

So, we can't stop cheaters...we have to give them a reason not to cheat. We need an intermediary. A company (preferably created by the gaming industry itself) that separates authentic players from cheaters.

The premise of what is suggested it to separate cheaters from authentic players who do not cheat. Since Zenimax already bans players who cheat and exploit as they find such cheats and exploits.

We have seen evidence of this fact over the years with the most recent issues revolving around exploiting endeavor missions and crown crate gifting. There have also been instances that have been instances with cheaters getting banned for actions in PvP and PvE with the cheat engine exploit years ago that permitted players cheating with this to use an ultimate immediately after using an ultimate and continue doing so into oblivion. Then there was the exploiting vAS HM that resulted in players receiving the ban hammer.

So Zenimax does stop cheaters. The problem is keeping pace with the cheater which requires verifying that cheating is occurring to catch the next wave of cheaters.

There is no reason that a third party that lacks thorough knowledge of the game's design and lacks the ability to investigate and develop code to find players using exploits since no sane developer will grant a third party that kind of access to the game.

So no, not even close to a troll post. Just one based on rational and logical thought.

[edited to remove quote]

Kappachi · August 2023

through all the battlegrounds matches I played, can't say I've run into any cheaters, what would cheating in PvP even look like?

Amottica · August 2023

Kappachi wrote: »

through all the battlegrounds matches I played, can't say I've run into any cheaters, what would cheating in PvP even look like?

It would depend on what the hack was. There have been movement speed hacks. Probably the most infamous was a cheat engine hack like when they were dropping ultimate after ultimate which lead to Zenimax moving from trusted client to server-side checks. That was well before my time but is well documented. I linked a Zenimax comment that was in one thread that addresses that cheat engine hack, their response, and demonstrates they do have an active anti-cheat software which they adjust to help better search for new exploits.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3023650/#Comment_3023650

Of note, that post notes that they banned 48 players in just the first 24 hours of working on this and were looking for more players using this hack. The next post clarifies that those 48 players were permanently banned. Not some temporary 24-hour or short-term ban. Granted, those same players can still come back on a different account with a different email since one can spoof an IP address to keep the new game looking like a brand-new player.

This is a constant fight and there is no reason to think a third party could do better.

DrNukenstein · September 2023

There's a player on PC NA that will mark you with the healing morph of mages guild dot then follow you around corners with destro staff impulse spam until you die. We know there are scripts that trigger on ingame audio queues. There's probably one that sticks your aim to where those lines are coming from and it's probably easier to write.

100% a cheater. That is what cheating looks like.

Flangdoodle · September 2023

Cheating is fortunately rare (at least in my experience) but it definitely exists. A while back my group came upon one player who we killed and then he kept resing himself. This happened over and over and we were laughing in comms "holy s**t - did you see that??" We couldn't believe it so we killed him again and then again just to see if we were right. I think it was like 8-10 times in a row, and the guy just resed as though he'd died from fall damage, Lol!

Another time there was a guy who we at first thought was just a troll tank because he just walked up and burned siege, but this guy took no damage -at all. It wasn't like he was blocking, or healing or even countering - it was like he wasn't even there. A developer friend explained that he'd heard of a hack that messed with the x or y positioning of the player so that they would display as being in front of you like normal - but the game would actually register them as 100 feet above where you saw them - i.e. out of range of your attacks. Never confirmed thats what was happening, but it sure was weird.

Only thing you can do is report it when you see it, and move on.