A Cure for Cheating

Off_The_Chain

No need. They are Never going to trade billions of dollars for fair pvp and if you think whatever comes out next will be. Your wrong.

geonsocal

Necrotech_Master

i cant say ive really run into any true "cheaters" in eso pvp

ive run into "cheesers" who just abuse LOS or what have you, but nothing i would see as cheating

i do agree though that anti-cheat applications generally dont work because they are too easy to get around, but from an ESO perspective i cant say ive run into any legitimate cheaters

TybaltKaine

So, your idea is to create a subclass of celebrity gamers who only PVP? Run by the nebulous "gaming industry" (who have never shown any inkling of corruption amirite?) and tied to actual personal information.

I'm not certain I see the necessity for that, outside of stroking egos and creating a bunch of extra steps for people to play a game.

YffresTrill

As someone who values their privacy, I hate this idea with a burning passion. Sharing personal details, even photos, with a third-party corporation, in order to appear more trustworthy? No thanks. I'd rather people cheat, honestly.

CameraBeardThePirate

This dude got outplayed once or twice and now wants to make a Twitter Blue for PvPers lol

Off_The_Chain

@Necrotech_Master
Search engine. Type "ESO cheats", hit enter. Enough said.

@TybaltKaine
I get the feeling you like the status quo just the way it is. If by "celebrity" you mean people that want a real pvp experience, then yes. I find it remarkably funny that genuine non-cheating players that want to pvp the way the developers intended their games to be played have to be elevated to a "subclass". I'm not fond of the idea of giving personal information either, however, the onus has to be placed on the players, it's the only way. I just think about how many organizations have my information: Visa and every other card, Bank, all employers, trading account, Medical, FBI, CIA, DOD, all schools and universities, city hall, the census, whomever hacked the credit score company. Yea, I'll take the chance...if given it. If cheating as a norm continues to be shrugged off, then that's the way it will stay. We have to take it seriously, otherwise it won't change. And you get to keep the game the way it is, what's the problem? I fear the "corruption" of the actors within the gaming industry far less then I do my fellow players. Furthermore, I would like members of the industry to create the company because that's the best choice. These are the people that have had the most experience recognizing and confronting cheating behaviors and coding. If by "stroking egos" you mean having faith and confidence in the pvp experience
I'm looking for? Then yes. Extra steps...like purchasing scripts, macro's, or engines (or hardware) designed for cheating that did not come with the game. Ok.

Necrotech_Master

are those even "current"?, and even if they are they are 100% not widespread as im assuming most people who tried to use that have gotten banned

ive been playing this game for 9.5 years and i could probably count on 1 hand the number of people who *might* have possibly been doing something shady enough to be reportable for cheating that was outside the norm of "skill" "lag" "server desync" standard stuff

CameraBeardThePirate

Off_The_Chain wrote: »

@Necrotech_Master
Search engine. Type "ESO cheats", hit enter. Enough said.

@TybaltKaine
I get the feeling you like the status quo just the way it is. If by "celebrity" you mean people that want a real pvp experience, then yes. I find it remarkably funny that genuine non-cheating players that want to pvp the way the developers intended their games to be played have to be elevated to a "subclass". I'm not fond of the idea of giving personal information either, however, the onus has to be placed on the players, it's the only way. I just think about how many organizations have my information: Visa and every other card, Bank, all employers, trading account, Medical, FBI, CIA, DOD, all schools and universities, city hall, the census, whomever hacked the credit score company. Yea, I'll take the chance...if given it. If cheating as a norm continues to be shrugged off, then that's the way it will stay. We have to take it seriously, otherwise it won't change. And you get to keep the game the way it is, what's the problem? I fear the "corruption" of the actors within the gaming industry far less then I do my fellow players. Furthermore, I would like members of the industry to create the company because that's the best choice. These are the people that have had the most experience recognizing and confronting cheating behaviors and coding. If by "stroking egos" you mean having faith and confidence in the pvp experience
I'm looking for? Then yes. Extra steps...like purchasing scripts, macro's, or engines (or hardware) designed for cheating that did not come with the game. Ok.

Hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of those search results you're referring to are likely scams. Pretty easy to charge money for something that either doesn't work or will lead to an instant ban then cut and run.

mook-eb16_ESO

Watch a youtube video called "AI Anti-Cheat May Change Gaming Forever!"

Dovahmiim

ESO doesn't have cheaters lol, you're probably just bad and can't explain how you die.

Aislinna

Off_The_Chain wrote: »

We need an intermediary. A company (preferably created by the gaming industry itself) that separates authentic players from cheaters. Member of this company (pvp players) will be given some kind of tag (like "verified") that can be recognized by all pvp games out there. Mainly, so that the game will only pair verified players with other verified players separate from all others. Now, the sole purpose of this company is to investigate reports of cheating against verified players. If a player is found for sure to have cheated, instant boot...for life. Why that matters. Because, to become a member is very much like opening a trading account. You're going to give a ton of personal information, and photos, and whatever else it will take to tie your real identity to your online pvp identity. Game companies start making their giveaways and prizes eligible for verified players only and BOOM. Reinvigorate every single pvp experience out there, old and new. The whole industry could go through a golden age. *you applause*

I think you should start this type of company, not suggest others do it.
There is no reason you can not start selling this idea to others, get funding for it and make it successful.
Be the hero of your own story. *applause*

Arrow312

Maybe 3-5% of players using this things. Most of the time it is breaking LOS or players can play the class and spend hours or months to increase their skills. No one starts new into pvp and is a god who X'ing it is all about practice and knowledge of class and skills.

TybaltKaine

Look this is either some weird back door marketing or you really have overestimated the number of players cheating in this game.


It's a bad idea and I'm moving on.

CameraBeardThePirate

Arrow312 wrote: »

Maybe 3-5% of players using this things. Most of the time it is breaking LOS or players can play the class and spend hours or months to increase their skills. No one starts new into pvp and is a god who X'ing it is all about practice and knowledge of class and skills.

Not even; 3-5% of players would be a massively
noticeable amount. I'd wager it's more in the realm of 0.5% of players, and honestly, even that seems high. I have thousands of hours in PvP and I've never come across someone that I even thought was cheating.

Now exploits of broken in-game mechanics? That's an entirely different story.

jaws343

Off_The_Chain wrote: »

@Necrotech_Master
Search engine. Type "ESO cheats", hit enter. Enough said.

@TybaltKaine
I get the feeling you like the status quo just the way it is. If by "celebrity" you mean people that want a real pvp experience, then yes. I find it remarkably funny that genuine non-cheating players that want to pvp the way the developers intended their games to be played have to be elevated to a "subclass". I'm not fond of the idea of giving personal information either, however, the onus has to be placed on the players, it's the only way. I just think about how many organizations have my information: Visa and every other card, Bank, all employers, trading account, Medical, FBI, CIA, DOD, all schools and universities, city hall, the census, whomever hacked the credit score company. Yea, I'll take the chance...if given it. If cheating as a norm continues to be shrugged off, then that's the way it will stay. We have to take it seriously, otherwise it won't change. And you get to keep the game the way it is, what's the problem? I fear the "corruption" of the actors within the gaming industry far less then I do my fellow players. Furthermore, I would like members of the industry to create the company because that's the best choice. These are the people that have had the most experience recognizing and confronting cheating behaviors and coding. If by "stroking egos" you mean having faith and confidence in the pvp experience
I'm looking for? Then yes. Extra steps...like purchasing scripts, macro's, or engines (or hardware) designed for cheating that did not come with the game. Ok.

All but one of those institutions you listed that have your private info are heavily regulated with what they can do with that info and how they have to keep it secure. And the other is illegal.

This is a terrible idea.

Marcus684

Although I'd love for this game to be completely free of cheaters, I don't base my enjoyment of PvP on the thought of beating other players in some mano-a-mano contest, so I definitely don't like the idea of having to give my data to some 3rd party to prove I'm somehow legitimate. I've faced the best players in this game over the past 9 years (and mostly lost to them) so I think I have a pretty good concept of what's possible within the rules of PvP. If I think that someone is cheating or cheesing something I generally leave them be and go somewhere else, unless the cheating is super obvious, then I record and report and let ZOS make the call.

The only change from the way ZOS handles cheating right now that I'd like to see is for proven cheaters to be named and shamed when they get banned, or at the very least see an anonymized list of banned players and why they were banned. I think this would go a long ways towards discouraging other players from cheating and give the rest of us some hope that ZOS actually tries to keep their game honest.

fizl101

I struggle with the business case here on lots of levels

What makes them a real pvp player? That they provided some kind of ID?

Who would pay this company for this service? How would it make money?

How would this data be shared to software suppliers? There is no international data set for a 'player' to be consumed by software developers and no international register of game players that they can allocate all potential account names/ IDs etc against.

Kartalin

I see people in my guild discords posting screenshots of the various hate-whispers they receive that they're cheating. I've seen what gear these players wear and nothing about it is shady, what it tells me is that these people complaining and sending salty messages just have a fundamental lack of understanding of either the class they're fighting, different playstyles, skill and set interactions, and so on.

DUTCH_REAPER

NVIDIA graphics card gives GEFORCE EXPERIENCE software for free. That comes with SHADOWPLAY for free. It’s recording software. Just turn on Record last 5 minutes and hit the bind key whenever you want to get the footage saved

Marcus684

Kartalin wrote: »

I see people in my guild discords posting screenshots of the various hate-whispers they receive that they're cheating. I've seen what gear these players wear and nothing about it is shady, what it tells me is that these people complaining and sending salty messages just have a fundamental lack of understanding of either the class they're fighting, different playstyles, skill and set interactions, and so on.

You're probably right, but to be fair I'm sure the friends of everyone who has ever gotten caught cheating would probably say the same thing. Everyone I've heard that was banned for cheating was wearing all the same sets that the rest of use, and using the same skills as the rest of us, but decided that they needed just a little something extra to help them out. On the surface they looked totally legit and almost all of them at least initially swore that they were banned for something ridiculous and totally unfair. It wasn't until later that a few admitted that they had been caught doing something that was very definitely a TOS violation.

Off_The_Chain

@mook-eb16_ESO
I watched the video. I'm both hopeful and terrified. AI says one in three players are cheating. That sounds about right, I would have guessed more. I'm still of the mind that we can't code our way out however, if AI can be utilized to stop cheating, sign me up. Honestly, I don't care what the solution is, so long as we get to it. My only concern is, what happens when AI is used for cheating against an AI tasked with detection/prevention? Imagine the lag from that. Seems like it could be a black hole problem. Can God make a mountain so big he can't move it? Kinda thing. We'll see, but if it works, I'll be the first in line.
Thank you for your reply.

@Aislinna
Love your enthusiasm and I could use a decent job right about now. I know I said I want to get paid for my ideas, and I do, but this one in particular may be a little too altruistic. For this to play out well, it would require buy in from every single game developer and future ones. All of them, it has to be some kind of new industry standard, or the idea falls apart. It seems more likely that if the industry goes down this path they will want control over the whole thing, which is just fine with me. Besides, I'm just a dumb ass that likes to shoot stuff. I don't know anything about running a business in the tech world. Thank you for your reply.

@jaws343
I knew this would be a sticking point but what I envision really isn't. First, it's entirely possible that no human would ever see anyone's information or photos, or whatever, at all. Furthermore, it wouldn't take that much information, just enough to verify identity. Photos alone probably won't be enough. As to what would happen to that information: Nothing. It will just sit there on some secure server in some data farm doing nothing. When someone gets caught cheating, their "validated" flag is removed and that record (your info) gets flagged. Other than that, the only time that info is even accessed is to compare the application of a new "validated" player against the database. In point of fact, the whole thing could be automated. The people working at the company only need to detect/prove cheating against a pvp identity, flag that identity, and move on to the next. I think it's a really good idea actually, leaps and bounds above everything else I've seen. But if you got a better one, I'm all ears. The information isn't even the real problem. It's the kids and countries. Kids can't do much under 18 (which coincidentally is how old you need to be to open a trading account) and alot of kids play video games. Now, I'm just fine with making this whole endeavor an over 18 thing. Unfortunately, I don't have a solution for their inclusion. The other problem I see is other countries. Here in the US, information can and will be verified. I have no idea what that looks like on a global scale, and gamers come from everywhere. Thank you for your reply.

@fizl101
What makes them a real pvp player is that they aren't cheating. Providing information is carrot and stick. If (big if) this played out and all of a sudden pvp is cheater free and players are having a great time enjoying the experience they wanted from
the beginning (the carrot). The thought of being cast out, back into the cheater pits for literally the rest of your life, would be just horrifying. Enough of a psychological barrier for most of us to just not cheat. Having that info on file is the stick. Can't do anything without punishment (one of the reasons pvp everywhere is just terrible). Who would pay? Don't know, don't care. I hate subscription services but if pvp goes back to being my happy place, I'll gladly pay. Easily worth the same as my Netlix subscription. Pvp is a gaming industry concept, and this idea is in its infancy. All the more reason I would like the gaming industry as a whole to take the reins. Finally, this data wouldn't be shared. No need for it to be. Thank you for your reply.

Kartalin

Marcus684 wrote: »

Kartalin wrote: »

I see people in my guild discords posting screenshots of the various hate-whispers they receive that they're cheating. I've seen what gear these players wear and nothing about it is shady, what it tells me is that these people complaining and sending salty messages just have a fundamental lack of understanding of either the class they're fighting, different playstyles, skill and set interactions, and so on.

You're probably right, but to be fair I'm sure the friends of everyone who has ever gotten caught cheating would probably say the same thing. Everyone I've heard that was banned for cheating was wearing all the same sets that the rest of use, and using the same skills as the rest of us, but decided that they needed just a little something extra to help them out. On the surface they looked totally legit and almost all of them at least initially swore that they were banned for something ridiculous and totally unfair. It wasn't until later that a few admitted that they had been caught doing something that was very definitely a TOS violation.

Yeah, definitely. I think I should include that while absolutely there are people cheating and exploiting, most of the time they fall in the latter category. While equally bad, exploiting would not be detected by the anti cheat that ZOS is running. And frequently it’s neither, rather perhaps a clever interaction of sets and abilities (and sometimes lag/desynchs) that make it appear fishy to players with less experience or insight. Cheese of the Month Club stuff.

xFocused

I'm sorry but do people really believe there aren't cheaters on ESO? Lol.

There's literally cheats of all kinds ranging from aim bots to macros to Xim inputs to Cronus inputs to almost every other kind of cheat in just about every game anymore, hell, people cheat in Fall Guys even, lol. I'm not defending OP here or agreeing with his idea but to have this belief that cheats don't exist in ESO is downright ridiculous

DUTCH_REAPER

xFocused wrote: »

I'm sorry but do people really believe there aren't cheaters on ESO? Lol.

There's literally cheats of all kinds ranging from aim bots to macros to Xim inputs to Cronus inputs to almost every other kind of cheat in just about every game anymore, hell, people cheat in Fall Guys even, lol. I'm not defending OP here or agreeing with his idea but to have this belief that cheats don't exist in ESO is downright ridiculous

I find there are two kinds of “defend the cheaters” in the forums. Those who actually cheat and don’t want their little hacks to stop and those who genuinely have no clue. There are Many cheats in ESO. The whole “it’s lag!” No it just a “desync”. Pfft. No. It’s cheaters. For me the truly frustrating thing is when my guild has put the work in To test and discover exploits and they don’t get fixed is absolutely infuriating.

DUTCH_REAPER

Oh am I would like to add, if I came into the forums with current video clips of in game pvp showing what a player does and then I make a clip of how to do it and post it here I would be banned. I don’t understand it. I followed the rules. I submitted the information. Yet no fixes are made on any of them.

IxSTALKERxI

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

Oh am I would like to add, if I came into the forums with current video clips of in game pvp showing what a player does and then I make a clip of how to do it and post it here I would be banned. I don’t understand it. I followed the rules. I submitted the information. Yet no fixes are made on any of them.

you pretty much need to wait till next pts cycle before you'll see any fixes

xFocused

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

xFocused wrote: »

I'm sorry but do people really believe there aren't cheaters on ESO? Lol.

There's literally cheats of all kinds ranging from aim bots to macros to Xim inputs to Cronus inputs to almost every other kind of cheat in just about every game anymore, hell, people cheat in Fall Guys even, lol. I'm not defending OP here or agreeing with his idea but to have this belief that cheats don't exist in ESO is downright ridiculous

I find there are two kinds of “defend the cheaters” in the forums. Those who actually cheat and don’t want their little hacks to stop and those who genuinely have no clue. There are Many cheats in ESO. The whole “it’s lag!” No it just a “desync”. Pfft. No. It’s cheaters. For me the truly frustrating thing is when my guild has put the work in To test and discover exploits and they don’t get fixed is absolutely infuriating.

Yep. Absolutely agree. My guild is pretty knowledgeable when it comes to noticing things that honestly shouldn’t be happening; we’ve been playing this game for years including the PvP side of it. Yes, lag and desyncs DO happen but not in the ways we’ve noticed. As someone said above, go to google and just type in “eso cheats” and see how many show up

Jierdanit

Off_The_Chain wrote: »

I watched the video. I'm both hopeful and terrified. AI says one in three players are cheating. That sounds about right, I would have guessed more.

That number is beyond ridiculous.
I have played several thousand hours of PvP in ESO and in that whole time ive encountered like 10 players who i thought might have been cheating in any way, with not a single one of them being on a level that i felt worth reporting.

On the other hand I have been accused of cheating by tons of players, simply because they do not understand what is achievable in this game, because they dont know how to properly play the game.
That is why i have a problem with people saying that there is tons of cheating going on. I dont doubt that some people in the game are cheating, but its not even a fraction of what you claim it is (at least not in ESO).

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

Marcus684

Jierdanit wrote: »

Off_The_Chain wrote: »

I watched the video. I'm both hopeful and terrified. AI says one in three players are cheating. That sounds about right, I would have guessed more.

That number is beyond ridiculous.
I have played several thousand hours of PvP in ESO and in that whole time ive encountered like 10 players who i thought might have been cheating in any way, with not a single one of them being on a level that i felt worth reporting.

On the other hand I have been accused of cheating by tons of players, simply because they do not understand what is achievable in this game, because they dont know how to properly play the game.
That is why i have a problem with people saying that there is tons of cheating going on. I dont doubt that some people in the game are cheating, but its not even a fraction of what you claim it is (at least not in ESO).

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

You don't know how many people cheat, I don't know how many people cheat, and I doubt even ZOS knows how many people cheat. All I can say for sure is that I consider myself a very average PvPer who runs into players that completely mop the floor with me on a regular basis, until there's a crackdown on cheating, and then suddenly most of those formerly elite players are absent. Coincidence?

CameraBeardThePirate

Marcus684 wrote: »

Jierdanit wrote: »

Off_The_Chain wrote: »

I watched the video. I'm both hopeful and terrified. AI says one in three players are cheating. That sounds about right, I would have guessed more.

That number is beyond ridiculous.
I have played several thousand hours of PvP in ESO and in that whole time ive encountered like 10 players who i thought might have been cheating in any way, with not a single one of them being on a level that i felt worth reporting.

On the other hand I have been accused of cheating by tons of players, simply because they do not understand what is achievable in this game, because they dont know how to properly play the game.
That is why i have a problem with people saying that there is tons of cheating going on. I dont doubt that some people in the game are cheating, but its not even a fraction of what you claim it is (at least not in ESO).

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

You don't know how many people cheat, I don't know how many people cheat, and I doubt even ZOS knows how many people cheat. All I can say for sure is that I consider myself a very average PvPer who runs into players that completely mop the floor with me on a regular basis, until there's a crackdown on cheating, and then suddenly most of those formerly elite players are absent. Coincidence?

But you don't even know when there's a crackdown on cheating. It's not like ZOS announces when they have a ban wave.