Does anyone know if novices still use patrons?

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Does anyone know if novices still use patrons?

i havent played tribute since the update yet, spent most of yesterday stealing to progress new achievements for fencing items in dlc zones lol

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Yes, I always pick Crow if the NPC doesn't, and they definitely will use the Crow patron now. You can even do a back-and-forth with hitting the Crow patron as in the old days, or as with Orgnum and a couple of other patrons (Hunding, Red Eagle).

I've still never seem use Crow. I remember Novice-level NPCs using Crow once in a while to burn off unused gold at the end of their turns. That was why I lost a lot at the beginning - that's what I thought it was for! But after Novice, I never see NPCs use Crow - even when it could easily win them a match.

Regarding Expert NPCs using the Crow patron, maybe it depends on the combination of patrons selected for the match?

I had not seen them use the Crow patron at all since the early days of ToT, then as soon as U39 went live I've seen them using it frequently.

I lost my first match after applying U39 because the NPC used Crow, then they immediately used Hlaalu, which made me think they were going for a patron win, so I got into a Crow-spamming fight with them to try to stop them from getting a patron win, but they had better money cards than me and kept getting further ahead.

Yet before U39 people were saying the NPCs would use Crow, which I never saw happen; and after U39 people are saying the NPCs don't use Crow, which I've been seeing multiple times a day due to playing six or more matches each day (three on each server for the daily).

I don't think simple RNG can explain this discrepancy, unless the RNG is heavily affected by the specific patron combination in a given match. I always pick Hlaalu and Crow, or Red Eagle if the NPC already chose Hlaalu or Crow, as Red Eagle is the only additional patron I've unlocked. The NPCs must follow a prioritized list when deciding whether to use a patron and which one to use, such that Crow rarely gets used if certain patrons are in the match, and gets used very often if certain patrons are not in the match.

emilyhyoyeon wrote: »

Does anyone know if novices still use patrons?

They are.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Regarding Expert NPCs using the Crow patron, maybe it depends on the combination of patrons selected for the match?

I had not seen them use the Crow patron at all since the early days of ToT, then as soon as U39 went live I've seen them using it frequently.

I lost my first match after applying U39 because the NPC used Crow, then they immediately used Hlaalu, which made me think they were going for a patron win, so I got into a Crow-spamming fight with them to try to stop them from getting a patron win, but they had better money cards than me and kept getting further ahead.

Yet before U39 people were saying the NPCs would use Crow, which I never saw happen; and after U39 people are saying the NPCs don't use Crow, which I've been seeing multiple times a day due to playing six or more matches each day (three on each server for the daily).

I don't think simple RNG can explain this discrepancy, unless the RNG is heavily affected by the specific patron combination in a given match. I always pick Hlaalu and Crow, or Red Eagle if the NPC already chose Hlaalu or Crow, as Red Eagle is the only additional patron I've unlocked. The NPCs must follow a prioritized list when deciding whether to use a patron and which one to use, such that Crow rarely gets used if certain patrons are in the match, and gets used very often if certain patrons are not in the match.

i dont think the npcs ever directly go for a patron win

and with the npcs i would never suggest hitting crow after the npc uses it unless you can dump a significant amount of gold into it

hitting crow with 3 gold is the same amount of power as unfavored orgnum, so going back and forth on the patron is literally the same as orgnum spamming for the most part

the AI for the npcs has changed several times since tribute released, and i feel like it goes back and forth between the NPCs never using patrons, to excessively spamming them even when it makes no sense to

i still havent had a chance to play tribute with the novice npcs yet since the patch, but previously they would just hit whatever they could afford to (which was most of the time hlaalu and removing all of the cards from their deck lol)

Yes, after playing several matches it became clear that the NPCs were NOT actually trying to get a patron win, so I didn't get into a Crow-spamming contest with the NPC.

But during my first match after U39, when I saw the NPC hit Crow and then Hlaalu so early in the game, and realized how easy it would be for them to hit the other two patrons in their next two turns, I panicked a bit because I didn't know that yet. And the new faster actions didn't help, either, because they unnerved me a bit at first.

As with every other time there have been changes to the NPCs' logic, once you've played a few matches with them, you start to understand their tactics and priorities, and are better able to win against them.

Edit: Had accidentally left out "not" in the first paragraph.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Regarding Expert NPCs using the Crow patron, maybe it depends on the combination of patrons selected for the match?

I had not seen them use the Crow patron at all since the early days of ToT, then as soon as U39 went live I've seen them using it frequently.

I lost my first match after applying U39 because the NPC used Crow, then they immediately used Hlaalu, which made me think they were going for a patron win, so I got into a Crow-spamming fight with them to try to stop them from getting a patron win, but they had better money cards than me and kept getting further ahead.

Yet before U39 people were saying the NPCs would use Crow, which I never saw happen; and after U39 people are saying the NPCs don't use Crow, which I've been seeing multiple times a day due to playing six or more matches each day (three on each server for the daily).

I don't think simple RNG can explain this discrepancy, unless the RNG is heavily affected by the specific patron combination in a given match. I always pick Hlaalu and Crow, or Red Eagle if the NPC already chose Hlaalu or Crow, as Red Eagle is the only additional patron I've unlocked. The NPCs must follow a prioritized list when deciding whether to use a patron and which one to use, such that Crow rarely gets used if certain patrons are in the match, and gets used very often if certain patrons are not in the match.

i dont think the npcs ever directly go for a patron win

and with the npcs i would never suggest hitting crow after the npc uses it unless you can dump a significant amount of gold into it

hitting crow with 3 gold is the same amount of power as unfavored orgnum, so going back and forth on the patron is literally the same as orgnum spamming for the most part

the AI for the npcs has changed several times since tribute released, and i feel like it goes back and forth between the NPCs never using patrons, to excessively spamming them even when it makes no sense to

i still havent had a chance to play tribute with the novice npcs yet since the patch, but previously they would just hit whatever they could afford to (which was most of the time hlaalu and removing all of the cards from their deck lol)

Yes, after playing several matches it became clear that the NPCs were NOT actually trying to get a patron win, so I didn't get into a Crow-spamming contest with the NPC.

But during my first match after U39, when I saw the NPC hit Crow and then Hlaalu so early in the game, and realized how easy it would be for them to hit the other two patrons in their next two turns, I panicked a bit because I didn't know that yet. And the new faster actions didn't help, either, because they unnerved me a bit at first.

As with every other time there have been changes to the NPCs' logic, once you've played a few matches with them, you start to understand their tactics and priorities, and are better able to win against them.

Edit: Had accidentally left out "not" in the first paragraph.

ive mostly gone back to my original strategy with the NPCs, which was rahjin and druid king lol

the NPCs waste power a lot on the druid king patron

the other deck the NPCs are still really bad with is the reach, they still spam that patron if they have any power, and they still make nonsense decisions involving removing cards from their decks

the main big difference ive seen is they dont spam the hlaalu patron as much as pre-patch

with rahjin im still usually easily winning against the npcs and keep them with almost no prestige

LouisaB75 wrote: »

I haven't played ToT for months and thought I would do some quick NPC Novice matches for the new music box lead and realised how much harder the novice NPCs are now. Sometimes they do still make stupid decisions, but it can no longer be a quick match to get the daily done because they are now frequently as hard to play against as the expert ones were.

I thought at first it was because I was out of practice but nearly a month later of doing this nearly every day and I am still finding some of the Novice ones hard to beat, depending on the decks in play.

In answer to those about which patrons the NPCs seem to favour. I find that they will always hit Hunding first and every single time you hit it they will do so again in the next turn. They only seem to hit Crow if I have hit it first, then they hit it so it does not favour me and proceed to ignore it again. They completely ignore the one (I forget the name) that you pay 4 coin to knock out agents for, even when I have had multiple agents. I have never seen them use it.

I think that one's called Celarus, or the Psijic deck.

What you and others are saying indicates that the different levels of NPCs place different priorities on the various patrons.

For instance, I see the Expert NPCs hit Crow first all the time; they don't wait for me to hit it first.

I also see them hit Celarus to knock out one of my agents, although they are idiosyncratic about which agents they knock out and how they knock them out. For instance, if the tavern has both the 2-cost card that knocks out one agent and the 3-cost card that knocks out two agents, the NPC will buy the 3-cost card even if I have only one agent. And they might pay 4 coin to hit Celarus and knock out an agent even if it would be smarter to spend that coin on a really nice card that's in the tavern and instead use some of their Power to knock out my agent.

I notice other idiosyncracies that often let me accurately predict what they're going to do, but once in a while they might maje a choice that surprises me. Learning how to beat the NPCs can come down to learning which patrons they favor or disfavor, and which cards they favor or disfavor, although of course luck and randomness play a large role as well.

Anyway, you might want to stop playing against the Novice NPCs and try one of the other levels to see if they're easier for you to beat. I think you can play against any level of NPC regardless of your own level, although I'm not certain about that.

I do not enjoy ToT at all and I seriously just ragequit the game for the night because of ToT NPC matches. I've been trying to casually do the dailies to attempt slowly but surely leveling through the ranks since there are sadly rewards from the achievements I would like.... but after deciding to do the quests before ending my daily gaming session and then losing to the first NPC once, then the second NPC twice.... well, I decided to call it a night there.

Side rant:
When they announced the cardgame I was actually looking forward to it a bit because I surprisingly enjoyed FFXIV's.... but ToT is just too much for a game within a game. Matches can take so long, it feels so separate from the rest of the game and definitely isn't something you can casually do while waiting for a dungeon queue, the fact that it's entirely built around RNG and isn't a proper deck builder is infuriating, and now NPCs are seemingly far too smart and apparently have better luck than I ever have. Sad to say I'll probably never get Captain Kaleen as a houseguest since I simply do not have the patience for ToT. Really wish it was a simple, quick fun time passer.... but nope. Hopefully they don't continue to lock too much content behind it, despite me always saying it'd be nice if they added more cool things as achievement rewards.... but ToT just isn't it for me and a lot of people I know.

I haven't played ToT since getting the Rubedite achievement when High Isle was released, but recently I started playing again to acquire the new lead that drops from the dailies, and I agree that NPCs nowadays play a lot smarter than they did before. I only play against expert NPCs and I'm not really familiar with all the new decks, but from what I've gathered they seem to have some patterns to their playstyle:

1) They'll almost always go for cards that give power up front (even if there are better cards in the tavern). They will forego strategy for accumulating prestige early and fast. 2) If there aren't any good cards to pick up in the tavern, and they've got a few gold, they will hit the Crow patron if it's present (again, in order to increase their prestige early and fast). If you hit it back to neutral, they will usually (though not always) will hit it again, and you can use this against them. However, if you hit Crow first, they sometimes will go for a different patron, which brings me to the third point: 3) They are more aware of patron allotment, so if you use a patron, they will almost always use one as well, to keep the spread even, and they can (albeit rarely) try for a patron win. I've seen them make use of all patrons, and in relatively smart ways. You can use the fact that they are sensitive to patron allotment, by turning patrons to your favour (when it's beneficial) because they will react to it, and sometimes even waste power/gold to use a patron that doesn't really benefit them, only to keep the spread even. 3) They generally like to hit your agents, and they will do so even if it's not a particularly beneficial agent to you, so not in their best interest to spend their power in order to hit it, hence using agents against them is a good way to gain ground and/or halt their progress 4) I don't know if it's just my RNG or if it's by design, but in my experience they will get the first turn most of the time, and for this reason they do tend to get good cards, so I usually never choose decks that have cards that give a lot of power (like Pelin), unless they've picked them. I've had the least success with Pelin, Orgnum (and to a lesser extent, Ansei) with NPCs, and the most success with one of Rahjin, Red Eagle, Druid, and Almalexia (though I'm not really familiar with the latter). If Red Eagle is present and they have cards with card-destroying conditions, they will actually keep destroying their cards even if it's not the best strategy for their hand, and twice I've seen NPCs left with zero cards in their possession (which is something ZOS should take a look at and fix @ZOS_Kevin), so it was a one-sided game from there on. Therefore, if they use a Red Eagle agent card that has a card-destroying condition, it's a good idea not to hit it (unless for eg., thinning their deck means they spam a high power Pelin card, etc.) because they do tend to destroy their decks sometimes. 5) This brings me to the fact that they do still make silly or obvious mistakes, for eg., they will refresh the tavern even if there is a really good card present that they could get; sometimes they will end their turn and waste remaining gold instead of picking up a Black Sacrament to hit an agent that's present; they will activate the Hlaalu patron on a low card even if they had a better card to burn instead; they will use another patron instead of Crow, even if when it was strategically smart to do so and would seal the game for them, etc. I think at least some of them are by design to give players an advantage and help them win (because I think it might be deliberate that they start first most of the time, so their mistakes even the situation in those games), and I would actually prefer it if the devs fixed their really obvious mistakes (like when the NPCs destroy all of their cards, which is a default win for the player), because it's a fun challenge. However, I do agree that Novice and Proficient NPCs should still make mistakes and be sufficiently nerfed so that people who want faster games when farming leads don't have to go through 10 losses to get one win.

the current novice NPCs are definitely less aggressive with patrons than they used to be (like hlaalu spam, they rarely hit it now)

they also still make completely dumb and nonsense choices with card removal, ive seen them pick up a ragpicker card and instead of removing a bewilderment or gold coin they intentionally remove a bought card or agent

Yes, the novice NPCs dont play anymore aggressive with the patrons, but I still recognize that they play much, much better than they used to do 1 year ago, playing agent all the time, and that is annoying when you just quickly want to finish one round. Additionally, they often get much better cards (yes, I know it should be random, but I dont belive it anymore)... I mean, I am seeing from the novice NPS something like that in every second round, 1 year ago you could just quickly beat them in 5 min.


Edit, I had to try it again... Seriously, since ToT came out I havent seen something like that in the Novice NPCs games - this is no fun anymore, they gain each round more that 20 gold and/or prestige, using agents exessively, having unbelievable luck with getting cards... @ZOS_GinaBruno this cant be a "normal" Novice (!) NPC game! I am playing ToT since it came out, played probaly 1000 rounds at least, but never something like that happened several matches after each other. I have enough challenges IRL, I just want to play a relaxing, quick round of ToT against a Novice NPC and not get totally frustrated and angry each time I waste 20-30 min. of playing this card game to get at the end 50 gold and some mushrooms.

freespirit wrote: »

Honestly I am shocked at how badly the Npcs play, it really is very hard to lose against them, I don't remember them being this awful when I was playing a lot before.

Well, I would have completely agreed with you last year, but something about the AI of the Novice NPCs has been constantly being changed for months - I've been playing since the start of ToT, have probably played 1000 matches, and the constant changes in the behavior of the AI are annoying. Especially when they are no longer easy to defeat, whats the case right now - I see the direct comparison of the behavior of the AI a year ago and now, it is simply not comparable, it's light years between the (completely stupid) behavior of the Novice NPCs a year ago and right now.

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

Honestly I am shocked at how badly the Npcs play, it really is very hard to lose against them, I don't remember them being this awful when I was playing a lot before.

Well, I would have completely agreed with you last year, but something about the AI of the Novice NPCs has been constantly being changed for months - I've been playing since the start of ToT, have probably played 1000 matches, and the constant changes in the behavior of the AI are annoying. Especially when they are no longer easy to defeat, whats the case right now - I see the direct comparison of the behavior of the AI a year ago and now, it is simply not comparable, it's light years between the (completely stupid) behavior of the Novice NPCs a year ago and right now.

the NPCs to me right now feel about the same as they did pre-necrom

ive done several days of ToT dailies now since the U39 patch adjusted the AI and im consistently beating the NPC like 40-60 to 0

theres only been even a few cases where the npc managed to get over 20 pts and that was when i did not get a lot of rahjin cards lol

i typically always play with rahjin because i like the deck, and since the AI change the NPC pretty much never hits rahjin, and barely uses hlaalu anymore

it does like to spam certain patrons such as druid king or reach, which just cause it to burn its generated power, further slowing it down

It is strange how people are seeing different npc behaviour though...

As I said loads of games played over last few weeks. npcs are for me are spamming Hlaalu Patron and to a lesser extent Rahjin, totally ignoring Orgnum.

Maybe a certain set of decks picked triggers these odd behaviours or maybe it's because I have for last few days constantly played proficient npcs?

freespirit wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Lugaldu wrote: »

freespirit wrote: »

Honestly I am shocked at how badly the Npcs play, it really is very hard to lose against them, I don't remember them being this awful when I was playing a lot before.

Well, I would have completely agreed with you last year, but something about the AI of the Novice NPCs has been constantly being changed for months - I've been playing since the start of ToT, have probably played 1000 matches, and the constant changes in the behavior of the AI are annoying. Especially when they are no longer easy to defeat, whats the case right now - I see the direct comparison of the behavior of the AI a year ago and now, it is simply not comparable, it's light years between the (completely stupid) behavior of the Novice NPCs a year ago and right now.

the NPCs to me right now feel about the same as they did pre-necrom

ive done several days of ToT dailies now since the U39 patch adjusted the AI and im consistently beating the NPC like 40-60 to 0

theres only been even a few cases where the npc managed to get over 20 pts and that was when i did not get a lot of rahjin cards lol

i typically always play with rahjin because i like the deck, and since the AI change the NPC pretty much never hits rahjin, and barely uses hlaalu anymore

it does like to spam certain patrons such as druid king or reach, which just cause it to burn its generated power, further slowing it down

It is strange how people are seeing different npc behaviour though...

As I said loads of games played over last few weeks. npcs are for me are spamming Hlaalu Patron and to a lesser extent Rahjin, totally ignoring Orgnum.

Maybe a certain set of decks picked triggers these odd behaviours or maybe it's because I have for last few days constantly played proficient npcs?

they used to spam hlaalu all the time and would occasionally hit rahjin (if that was their only viable play) until U39 which was when they changed the novice AI again (i havent seen them hit rahjin once since U39)

their behavior with orgnum for example hasnt changed pre/post U39, they would occasionally hit it but never spammed it more than a couple of turns usually