Nerf Artic Blast/Polar Wind and buff Spores/Enchanted Growth

Weckless · July 2023

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Polar wouldn't be a 15k burst heal if there was a hard cap on how many attribute points you could put into health.
Wouldn't have 50k HP DK's either for that matter.
2 birds with 1 stone.

The problem is that you’d be making things difficult for PvE tanks, who often need every drop of HP they can get. Besides, high HP isn’t the issue. Try putting all your attributes into HP, then going into a No Proc/No CP with an off-meta build and you’ll see that high HP just means it takes an extra second to melt you.

The issue is the absolutely ludicrous amount of sustain you can maintain with nothing invested into your offensive stats. When you can hold block while hammering the heal button and not run out of juice, that’s when things get ridiculous.

I agree on this. People wouldn't be comfortable running 18k stamina if they didn't have such an easy time recovering it.

Weckless · July 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Im not sure where I fall on this. On one hand, I think Polar Wind is over performing. On the other hand, wardens have a passive that grants minor toughness and it seems to me building into max HP is supposed to be a thing for them. I liked what someone said, React maybe, that if it were strictly a selfish heal then it wouldn't be so bad. That would be a nice change. Short of that-- let's continue to discuss nerfing HP in general to help the PvP meta, and maybe hold off on nerfing Polar specifically until we see how that pans out.

Meanwhile... I don't think Arctic needs nerfing at all. It's been messed with too much recently. If you don't like the current state of it then okay-- I understand-- but let's change something else first, eh? Or like 5 somethings. Warden fits snugly in the middle of class performance for PvP in my mind. Hardly worth talking about. I understand that the skill seems overloaded but we are talking about a class that doesn't have a good spammable, a good execute, or a good stun.

Bird spammable is awful and I tried very hard to make it work wearing Innate Axiom in Ravenwatch. It's just so freaking slow. And you almost never get the full 400 damage from it because everybody's so dang fast these days you're always fighting someone right in your face.

Bear execute. Riiight. So zero execute for PvP then.

Arctic is kinda a good stun but if you remove the heal then it's not anymore. The idea of a delayed stun is kinda perfect but having it be PBAoE kinda ruins it. And if the heal were removed then we could make it instant again but, again, how many times do we want to go back and forth on the same skill? It isn't even that good. And then there's Crystal Slab which, both morphs are kinda awesome IF you're fighting someone who uses projectiles, but the stun is nigh uncontrollable and MORE likely to hit the bow spammer you haven't even seen yet than the person you're actually involved with and trying to combo.

Also... The idea of a stun and heal combined into one skill isn't even unique. DKs have one in Obsidian Shard. The Bow skill line has one... Or... Well I haven't used the skill in a while, draining shot still stuns right? And Magnum is a literal knockback? Every DK ultimate does damage and heals them. So does the NB Soul Tether. There's probably at least one more example I can't think of. It's just not a big deal. It's arguably a bad stun and only a decent heal.

Shattering rocks. And draining shot just snares now and magnum doesn't heal. Also wardens are fighting for the the #2 spot with NB lol

Urzigurumash · July 2023

Weckless wrote: »

Oblivion_Protocol wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Polar wouldn't be a 15k burst heal if there was a hard cap on how many attribute points you could put into health.
Wouldn't have 50k HP DK's either for that matter.
2 birds with 1 stone.

The problem is that you’d be making things difficult for PvE tanks, who often need every drop of HP they can get. Besides, high HP isn’t the issue. Try putting all your attributes into HP, then going into a No Proc/No CP with an off-meta build and you’ll see that high HP just means it takes an extra second to melt you.

The issue is the absolutely ludicrous amount of sustain you can maintain with nothing invested into your offensive stats. When you can hold block while hammering the heal button and not run out of juice, that’s when things get ridiculous.

I agree on this. People wouldn't be comfortable running 18k stamina if they didn't have such an easy time recovering it.

I agree too, it's true some HP stacking was motivated by the removal of the Champion percentile bonus to Mag/Stam and the additional 1k base Weapon/Spell Damage but - along with Undeath - it might easily be fixed by a new reduction of sustain. Very few people stacked HP back when it could exceed 70k (prior to the racial revision in 2019 - and granted many would've during the Malacath era had we still had the old racial passives, since we still had unscaled procs / unpenalized Heavy / unhalved HP Regen).

So let me ask again:

Would a massive hit to Damage/Healing in Battlespirit indirectly accomplish a massive hit to sustain? Seems like it right, or no? We'd have more time to easily Heavy Attack for sustain, but, on most specs these do pitiful damage nowadays.

Urzigurumash · July 2023

Also I agree with the premise of this thread, the buff to Spores a few patches back wasn't quite enough. It "should" be the main burst heal for an offensive spec.

Off-topic but related - from my perspective the Arcanist seem like the most well "Trinity-balanced" of all classes, it can DD/Tank/Heal really well - but not all at the same time. Seems like the lack of a reliable instant and strong direct self-heal goes a long way to accomplish this (That's a poorly informed perspective because I haven't been able to play much this patch)

As the estimable @DrNukenstein has said many times, a cast time /channel on burst heals (like Arcanist has with Heal Beam) pretty much instantly solves the "tanks can heal too much" thing, but doesn't so well solve the "damage dealers can heal too much" (i.e., still being able to kite off and heal to full instead of blockcasting). Arcanist seems to show a way to deal with that problem too. (Assuming it is a problem in itself, separate debate that gets into TES vs Trinity issues - which, in my opinion, reminds us exactly why Orc/Nord had a racial bonus to HP Regen..)

Let's be honest, doesn't make a ton of sense how you can block with your hands waving around when casting Arctic Blast.

i11ionward · July 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Also... The idea of a stun and heal combined into one skill isn't even unique. DKs have one in Obsidian Shard. The Bow skill line has one... Or... Well I haven't used the skill in a while, draining shot still stuns right? And Magnum is a literal knockback? Every DK ultimate does damage and heals them. So does the NB Soul Tether. There's probably at least one more example I can't think of. It's just not a big deal. It's arguably a bad stun and only a decent heal.

I'm not sure if it's correct to compare these skills (you can't spam Shattering Rocks), but DK also has a stun + heal

StaticWave · July 2023

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Also I agree with the premise of this thread, the buff to Spores a few patches back wasn't quite enough. It "should" be the main burst heal for an offensive spec.

Off-topic but related - from my perspective the Arcanist seem like the most well "Trinity-balanced" of all classes, it can DD/Tank/Heal really well - but not all at the same time. Seems like the lack of a reliable instant and strong direct self-heal goes a long way to accomplish this (That's a poorly informed perspective because I haven't been able to play much this patch)

As the estimable @DrNukenstein has said many times, a cast time /channel on burst heals (like Arcanist has with Heal Beam) pretty much instantly solves the "tanks can heal too much" thing, but doesn't so well solve the "damage dealers can heal too much" (i.e., still being able to kite off and heal to full instead of blockcasting). Arcanist seems to show a way to deal with that problem too. (Assuming it is a problem in itself, separate debate that gets into TES vs Trinity issues - which, in my opinion, reminds us exactly why Orc/Nord had a racial bonus to HP Regen..)

Let's be honest, doesn't make a ton of sense how you can block with your hands waving around when casting Arctic Blast.

This is essentially the same reason why Sorc has to play the way it is in the current meta (because of not having a reliable instant cast burst heal). Melee Sorcs have to use several proc sets and Pale Order to maximize offensive healing while in melee range, and ranged Sorcs have to either use shields or Crystal Weapon to maximize offensive healing.

There are several suggested approaches to fixing the block healing issue, as listed below:

1) Cast time on burst heal (imo not a good idea)
2) Ramping cost increase the more you hold block (PvErs won't like it)
3) Nerf tooltip value (Can be a solution, but it won't solve the problem completely)
4) Reduce max HP and sustain (this imo is probably the best approach for the current meta)

LittlePinkDot · July 2023

Ugh I hate heavy attacking.
Isn't the sustain only an issue for CP campaign?.
I'm bias but nerfing sustain just sucks the fun out of everything, not just PvP. I hate heavy attacking.

I say just disable CP for all PVP.
No point in dividing everyone into so many campaigns.
CP is PVE only. Battlegrounds has been more fun anyway.
The horse simulator has been boring.

Melzo · July 2023

Here everyone argues that the class is able to have 7 weapon damage and 45 ka hp. But at the same time, they are silent about the fact that you lose 8 ka of stamina, which is 1000 weapon damage and the fact that all the weapon damage that you receive is only for a short time. At high health, you increase the skill based on maximum health, but at the same time weaken other healing skills and damage.

And here's an argument for you, a sorcerer who loves to argue. Your sorcerer can also have 45 health and 7 weapon damage. Or rather, Health will be smaller, he has a unique buff, but weapon damage will be more for class buffs of the sorcerer. Can you nerf your shield too??? Absolutely the same situation.

In fact, a pointless argument. Warden is not the strongest class in the game. And to spoil the class in order to please one person is pointless. In particular, because of such decisions, pvp has come to such a *** state.

Urzigurumash · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Also I agree with the premise of this thread, the buff to Spores a few patches back wasn't quite enough. It "should" be the main burst heal for an offensive spec.

Off-topic but related - from my perspective the Arcanist seem like the most well "Trinity-balanced" of all classes, it can DD/Tank/Heal really well - but not all at the same time. Seems like the lack of a reliable instant and strong direct self-heal goes a long way to accomplish this (That's a poorly informed perspective because I haven't been able to play much this patch)

As the estimable @DrNukenstein has said many times, a cast time /channel on burst heals (like Arcanist has with Heal Beam) pretty much instantly solves the "tanks can heal too much" thing, but doesn't so well solve the "damage dealers can heal too much" (i.e., still being able to kite off and heal to full instead of blockcasting). Arcanist seems to show a way to deal with that problem too. (Assuming it is a problem in itself, separate debate that gets into TES vs Trinity issues - which, in my opinion, reminds us exactly why Orc/Nord had a racial bonus to HP Regen..)

Let's be honest, doesn't make a ton of sense how you can block with your hands waving around when casting Arctic Blast.

This is essentially the same reason why Sorc has to play the way it is in the current meta (because of not having a reliable instant cast burst heal). Melee Sorcs have to use several proc sets and Pale Order to maximize offensive healing while in melee range, and ranged Sorcs have to either use shields or Crystal Weapon to maximize offensive healing.

There are several suggested approaches to fixing the block healing issue, as listed below:

1) Cast time on burst heal (imo not a good idea)
2) Ramping cost increase the more you hold block (PvErs won't like it)
3) Nerf tooltip value (Can be a solution, but it won't solve the problem completely)
4) Reduce max HP and sustain (this imo is probably the best approach for the current meta)

Very true, to me the defining characteristics of StamSorc vs StamDK in the old days were - cast-time heal with sustain versus instant heal with Extra Healing Taken (Dark Deal vs Green Dragonblood), Physical Damage Done + Stamina Cost Reduction versus Extra Healing Taken + Extra Block Mitigation. These things helped differentiate the "Berserker" from the "Knight" in the two "Warrior" classes that otherwise had the same damage dealing skills in Weapon Skills. To me this all made tons of thematic sense.

I think it's fair to say Sorc is the most well "Trinity Balanced" of the basegame classes. Sorc healers may have never been very popular outside of Trials but Negate Tanks have consistently been the most useful tanks in PvP. But, being unable to blockcast heals like DK and Templar, not having the Siphoning skills of NB, Sorc always had the most trouble "doing it all at once".

I think it's fair to also ponder whether this may be the underlying reason why on this forum "Nerf Sorc" has always been such a popular mantra at the same time this was met with fury by Sorc Mains:

While Ranged MagSorc was the most consistently strong DD spec in PvP from Day 1 until a few years ago, Sorc was always the least capable of "violating the Trinity" - something StamDK was always particularly good at it even when the class was "completely non-functional in PvP and in need of an exhaustive rework" (among the most outrageous allegations made on this forum and something for which I was ridiculed for opposing). (also please note, "just block and dodge" is as relevant to Curse and Fury as it is to Whip and Leap, sorry)

Anyhow I agree with #4 there, so again, would simply nerfing Healing and Damage in Battlespirit indirectly accomplish a nerf to Sustain and hence Max HP? I'm not sure, seems possible though right?

gariondavey · July 2023

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ugh I hate heavy attacking.
Isn't the sustain only an issue for CP campaign?.
I'm bias but nerfing sustain just sucks the fun out of everything, not just PvP. I hate heavy attacking.

I say just disable CP for all PVP.
No point in dividing everyone into so many campaigns.
CP is PVE only. Battlegrounds has been more fun anyway.
The horse simulator has been boring.

Based

Weckless · July 2023

Urzigurumash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Also I agree with the premise of this thread, the buff to Spores a few patches back wasn't quite enough. It "should" be the main burst heal for an offensive spec.

Off-topic but related - from my perspective the Arcanist seem like the most well "Trinity-balanced" of all classes, it can DD/Tank/Heal really well - but not all at the same time. Seems like the lack of a reliable instant and strong direct self-heal goes a long way to accomplish this (That's a poorly informed perspective because I haven't been able to play much this patch)

As the estimable @DrNukenstein has said many times, a cast time /channel on burst heals (like Arcanist has with Heal Beam) pretty much instantly solves the "tanks can heal too much" thing, but doesn't so well solve the "damage dealers can heal too much" (i.e., still being able to kite off and heal to full instead of blockcasting). Arcanist seems to show a way to deal with that problem too. (Assuming it is a problem in itself, separate debate that gets into TES vs Trinity issues - which, in my opinion, reminds us exactly why Orc/Nord had a racial bonus to HP Regen..)

Let's be honest, doesn't make a ton of sense how you can block with your hands waving around when casting Arctic Blast.

This is essentially the same reason why Sorc has to play the way it is in the current meta (because of not having a reliable instant cast burst heal). Melee Sorcs have to use several proc sets and Pale Order to maximize offensive healing while in melee range, and ranged Sorcs have to either use shields or Crystal Weapon to maximize offensive healing.

There are several suggested approaches to fixing the block healing issue, as listed below:

1) Cast time on burst heal (imo not a good idea)
2) Ramping cost increase the more you hold block (PvErs won't like it)
3) Nerf tooltip value (Can be a solution, but it won't solve the problem completely)
4) Reduce max HP and sustain (this imo is probably the best approach for the current meta)

Very true, to me the defining characteristics of StamSorc vs StamDK in the old days were - cast-time heal with sustain versus instant heal with Extra Healing Taken (Dark Deal vs Green Dragonblood), Physical Damage Done + Stamina Cost Reduction versus Extra Healing Taken + Extra Block Mitigation. These things helped differentiate the "Berserker" from the "Knight" in the two "Warrior" classes that otherwise had the same damage dealing skills in Weapon Skills. To me this all made tons of thematic sense.

I think it's fair to say Sorc is the most well "Trinity Balanced" of the basegame classes. Sorc healers may have never been very popular outside of Trials but Negate Tanks have consistently been the most useful tanks in PvP. But, being unable to blockcast heals like DK and Templar, not having the Siphoning skills of NB, Sorc always had the most trouble "doing it all at once".

I think it's fair to also ponder whether this may be the underlying reason why on this forum "Nerf Sorc" has always been such a popular mantra at the same time this was met with fury by Sorc Mains:

While Ranged MagSorc was the most consistently strong DD spec in PvP from Day 1 until a few years ago, Sorc was always the least capable of "violating the Trinity" - something StamDK was always particularly good at it even when the class was "completely non-functional in PvP and in need of an exhaustive rework" (among the most outrageous allegations made on this forum and something for which I was ridiculed for opposing). (also please note, "just block and dodge" is as relevant to Curse and Fury as it is to Whip and Leap, sorry)

Anyhow I agree with #4 there, so again, would simply nerfing Healing and Damage in Battlespirit indirectly accomplish a nerf to Sustain and hence Max HP? I'm not sure, seems possible though right?

I'm confused about that last point because curse and Fury can't be blocked and once on you can't be dodged either lol

Weckless · July 2023

Urzigurumash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Also I agree with the premise of this thread, the buff to Spores a few patches back wasn't quite enough. It "should" be the main burst heal for an offensive spec.

Off-topic but related - from my perspective the Arcanist seem like the most well "Trinity-balanced" of all classes, it can DD/Tank/Heal really well - but not all at the same time. Seems like the lack of a reliable instant and strong direct self-heal goes a long way to accomplish this (That's a poorly informed perspective because I haven't been able to play much this patch)

As the estimable @DrNukenstein has said many times, a cast time /channel on burst heals (like Arcanist has with Heal Beam) pretty much instantly solves the "tanks can heal too much" thing, but doesn't so well solve the "damage dealers can heal too much" (i.e., still being able to kite off and heal to full instead of blockcasting). Arcanist seems to show a way to deal with that problem too. (Assuming it is a problem in itself, separate debate that gets into TES vs Trinity issues - which, in my opinion, reminds us exactly why Orc/Nord had a racial bonus to HP Regen..)

Let's be honest, doesn't make a ton of sense how you can block with your hands waving around when casting Arctic Blast.

This is essentially the same reason why Sorc has to play the way it is in the current meta (because of not having a reliable instant cast burst heal). Melee Sorcs have to use several proc sets and Pale Order to maximize offensive healing while in melee range, and ranged Sorcs have to either use shields or Crystal Weapon to maximize offensive healing.

There are several suggested approaches to fixing the block healing issue, as listed below:

1) Cast time on burst heal (imo not a good idea)
2) Ramping cost increase the more you hold block (PvErs won't like it)
3) Nerf tooltip value (Can be a solution, but it won't solve the problem completely)
4) Reduce max HP and sustain (this imo is probably the best approach for the current meta)

Very true, to me the defining characteristics of StamSorc vs StamDK in the old days were - cast-time heal with sustain versus instant heal with Extra Healing Taken (Dark Deal vs Green Dragonblood), Physical Damage Done + Stamina Cost Reduction versus Extra Healing Taken + Extra Block Mitigation. These things helped differentiate the "Berserker" from the "Knight" in the two "Warrior" classes that otherwise had the same damage dealing skills in Weapon Skills. To me this all made tons of thematic sense.

I think it's fair to say Sorc is the most well "Trinity Balanced" of the basegame classes. Sorc healers may have never been very popular outside of Trials but Negate Tanks have consistently been the most useful tanks in PvP. But, being unable to blockcast heals like DK and Templar, not having the Siphoning skills of NB, Sorc always had the most trouble "doing it all at once".

I think it's fair to also ponder whether this may be the underlying reason why on this forum "Nerf Sorc" has always been such a popular mantra at the same time this was met with fury by Sorc Mains:

While Ranged MagSorc was the most consistently strong DD spec in PvP from Day 1 until a few years ago, Sorc was always the least capable of "violating the Trinity" - something StamDK was always particularly good at it even when the class was "completely non-functional in PvP and in need of an exhaustive rework" (among the most outrageous allegations made on this forum and something for which I was ridiculed for opposing). (also please note, "just block and dodge" is as relevant to Curse and Fury as it is to Whip and Leap, sorry)

Anyhow I agree with #4 there, so again, would simply nerfing Healing and Damage in Battlespirit indirectly accomplish a nerf to Sustain and hence Max HP? I'm not sure, seems possible though right?

And no I don't think nerfing sustain indirectly through damage and healing is the answer because then the specs that don't build as much into damage won't care and become even more unkillable. Especially classes with a health based heal.

StaticWave · July 2023

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ugh I hate heavy attacking.
Isn't the sustain only an issue for CP campaign?.
I'm bias but nerfing sustain just sucks the fun out of everything, not just PvP. I hate heavy attacking.

I say just disable CP for all PVP.
No point in dividing everyone into so many campaigns.
CP is PVE only. Battlegrounds has been more fun anyway.
The horse simulator has been boring.

I would argue that removing CP will benefit tanky builds more, because a large part of CP sustain comes from the Survival Instinct slottable. You would have to address them first before addressing CP imo.

Galeriano · July 2023

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I understand it's needed for PvE tanks, but Polar Wind scaling with max HP arguably makes this ability the best heal in the entire game right now for PvP. DPS Wardens stacking 45k+ HP with almost 7k weapon damage should not exist. I think ZoS should tone down or even remove the HoT component of this ability to bring it in line with other HP scaling heals.

Artic Blast should not scale with offensive stats, period. Currently, it has a decent tooltip comparable to other burst heals, has a decent DoT, and can stun through block. I mean, why? Warden has an entire line dedicated to healing with Spores, which should have been its main burst heal but never gets used. I think ZoS should actually buff Spores to be more competitive and revert the change to Artic Blast.

Thoughts?

Leave my polar wind alone.
She already doesn't even have a spammable except Wrecking blow and no stun.

What does the spammable have to do with anything regarding healing lol.

Because they already had enough sacrifices to make.

Give me a spammable like surprise attack or a stun like fossilize on my warden and then you can nerf the heal.

Cliff racer and arctic blast.

Galeriano · July 2023

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ugh I hate heavy attacking.
Isn't the sustain only an issue for CP campaign?.
I'm bias but nerfing sustain just sucks the fun out of everything, not just PvP. I hate heavy attacking.

I say just disable CP for all PVP.
No point in dividing everyone into so many campaigns.
CP is PVE only. Battlegrounds has been more fun anyway.
The horse simulator has been boring.

Fun in battlegrounds ends when high health polar wind spamming wardens join the match. Nothing more boring than that.

LittlePinkDot · July 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I understand it's needed for PvE tanks, but Polar Wind scaling with max HP arguably makes this ability the best heal in the entire game right now for PvP. DPS Wardens stacking 45k+ HP with almost 7k weapon damage should not exist. I think ZoS should tone down or even remove the HoT component of this ability to bring it in line with other HP scaling heals.

Artic Blast should not scale with offensive stats, period. Currently, it has a decent tooltip comparable to other burst heals, has a decent DoT, and can stun through block. I mean, why? Warden has an entire line dedicated to healing with Spores, which should have been its main burst heal but never gets used. I think ZoS should actually buff Spores to be more competitive and revert the change to Artic Blast.

Thoughts?

Leave my polar wind alone.
She already doesn't even have a spammable except Wrecking blow and no stun.

What does the spammable have to do with anything regarding healing lol.

Because they already had enough sacrifices to make.

Give me a spammable like surprise attack or a stun like fossilize on my warden and then you can nerf the heal.

Cliff racer and arctic blast.

Arctic blast was nerfed and cliff racer is too slow like blast bones.

LittlePinkDot · July 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ugh I hate heavy attacking.
Isn't the sustain only an issue for CP campaign?.
I'm bias but nerfing sustain just sucks the fun out of everything, not just PvP. I hate heavy attacking.

I say just disable CP for all PVP.
No point in dividing everyone into so many campaigns.
CP is PVE only. Battlegrounds has been more fun anyway.
The horse simulator has been boring.

Fun in battlegrounds ends when high health polar wind spamming wardens join the match. Nothing more boring than that.

There's an objective in battlegrounds.
Simply go to another point, relic etc.
I frequently make the same decision against some DK.
You can't win against everybody all the time.
Doesn't mean you nerf sustain and ruin the whole game for every casual just trying to overland PVE.

My God arcanists sustain is already terrible.

All this being said, I get more kills on my 27k health stamsorc than I do my warden, simply because it's easier for my sorc to hit people.
I get less deaths on my Warden, but trying to hit people with Wrecking blow when you don't have a stun is difficult.
She needs the extra survivability just have the chance to actually hit somebody. Then actually finishing them off before they disengage and heal back to full health is another challenge.

StaticWave · July 2023

Melzo wrote: »

Here everyone argues that the class is able to have 7 weapon damage and 45 ka hp. But at the same time, they are silent about the fact that you lose 8 ka of stamina, which is 1000 weapon damage and the fact that all the weapon damage that you receive is only for a short time. At high health, you increase the skill based on maximum health, but at the same time weaken other healing skills and damage.

And here's an argument for you, a sorcerer who loves to argue. Your sorcerer can also have 45 health and 7 weapon damage. Or rather, Health will be smaller, he has a unique buff, but weapon damage will be more for class buffs of the sorcerer. Can you nerf your shield too??? Absolutely the same situation.

In fact, a pointless argument. Warden is not the strongest class in the game. And to spoil the class in order to please one person is pointless. In particular, because of such decisions, pvp has come to such a *** state.

A 30k HP build with 23k stam and 7k weapon damage is not as valuable as a 45k HP build with 15k stam and 7k weapon damage for the following reasons:

1) You are less likely to be targeted by other people in a 45k HP build because your HP acts as a soft deterrent. If I see 2 wardens with 30k HP and 45k, I’m going to target the 30k HP one 100% of the time.

2) The extra 15k HP act as a buffer against NB and other bursty classes, and also helps you survive a group ulti dump

3) Your Polar Wind tooltip will be significantly higher, which benefits group play, which is the main reason for going 45k HP on Warden

4) 15k stam in CP is not an issue since sustain is easy and Warden inherently has strong heals, making it easy to heavy attack for resources and burst at the right moment.

Sorcerer building for max HP is not as strong as a Warden doing it because

1) Hardened Ward doesn’t give you a 3k HoT, nor can it crit or get block mitigation

2) Hardened Ward doesn’t heal your teammates

3) Sorc also doesn’t have Budding Seeds, which is a good AoE HoT that can burst heal, Green Lotus that can heal every light attack or more with heavy attack, or a cleanse that heals per cast and has practically no cost other than a GCD, which could arguably be a benefit on this build because you already have low max resources to begin with, so spamming netch isn’t even that big of a deal while other Hots are ticking.

Like I’m not sure why you keep saying it’s pointless when a simple test in game shows the difference between a max HP sorc and a max HP warden. I’ve played both and I am telling you they are not the same in terms of power.

StaticWave · July 2023

And at the end of the day, I am simply raising awareness about the issue. You can just hop in game and test it yourself. Get a 45k HP warden and see just how good it is lol. Unless you’re severely outnumbered, I don’t see why you should die with 45k HP and fat heals with the damage to still kill people.

Whoever argue against this, I suggest actually trying it. I know for a fact that many top tier PvPers are running this in groups and even stack 3-4 wardens with 45k HP to basically never die unless they mess up or are severely outnumbered lol.

StaticWave · July 2023

Galeriano wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ugh I hate heavy attacking.
Isn't the sustain only an issue for CP campaign?.
I'm bias but nerfing sustain just sucks the fun out of everything, not just PvP. I hate heavy attacking.

I say just disable CP for all PVP.
No point in dividing everyone into so many campaigns.
CP is PVE only. Battlegrounds has been more fun anyway.
The horse simulator has been boring.

Fun in battlegrounds ends when high health polar wind spamming wardens join the match. Nothing more boring than that.

There’s a 58k Warden on PC NA who does just that in BGs. It takes 3 people to kill him and even with 3 people it takes a while. Imagine a team with 3 45k HP Wardens in 7k WD and a 58k HP warden throwing out heals. Yea good luck dying lol.

LittlePinkDot · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ugh I hate heavy attacking.
Isn't the sustain only an issue for CP campaign?.
I'm bias but nerfing sustain just sucks the fun out of everything, not just PvP. I hate heavy attacking.

I say just disable CP for all PVP.
No point in dividing everyone into so many campaigns.
CP is PVE only. Battlegrounds has been more fun anyway.
The horse simulator has been boring.

Fun in battlegrounds ends when high health polar wind spamming wardens join the match. Nothing more boring than that.

There’s a 58k Warden on PC NA who does just that in BGs. It takes 3 people to kill him and even with 3 people it takes a while. Imagine a team with 3 45k HP Wardens in 7k WD and a 58k HP warden throwing out heals. Yea good luck dying lol.

And what are even the odds of getting that team in a solo queue?

Ive never even encountered this scenario on PS5.

I don't see how it's fair to make polar wind a completely useless skill for normal 30ish k health wardens just because there's people in PvP that want to put all their attributes into health.

Just cap Max health in PvP. They already capped crit damage in PvP, why not health?

Weckless · July 2023

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ugh I hate heavy attacking.
Isn't the sustain only an issue for CP campaign?.
I'm bias but nerfing sustain just sucks the fun out of everything, not just PvP. I hate heavy attacking.

I say just disable CP for all PVP.
No point in dividing everyone into so many campaigns.
CP is PVE only. Battlegrounds has been more fun anyway.
The horse simulator has been boring.

Fun in battlegrounds ends when high health polar wind spamming wardens join the match. Nothing more boring than that.

There's an objective in battlegrounds.
Simply go to another point, relic etc.
I frequently make the same decision against some DK.
You can't win against everybody all the time.
Doesn't mean you nerf sustain and ruin the whole game for every casual just trying to overland PVE.

My God arcanists sustain is already terrible.

All this being said, I get more kills on my 27k health stamsorc than I do my warden, simply because it's easier for my sorc to hit people.
I get less deaths on my Warden, but trying to hit people with Wrecking blow when you don't have a stun is difficult.
She needs the extra survivability just have the chance to actually hit somebody. Then actually finishing them off before they disengage and heal back to full health is another challenge.

People have been saying to do it through battle spirit so it won't effect casuals doing pve.
And i wholeheartedly disagree pvp should be balanced for casuals. Casual friendly is one thing but balancing the game around casuals is what got us where we are now.

OBJnoob · July 2023

"Balancing the game around casuals is what got us where we are now."

Oh it's casuals that found out how to get 70+% uptime on corrosive? It's casuals that use Vate Destro and BRP dual wield on every build? Casuals figured out how to hit 20k spec bows? Casuals run 45k HP wardens with 7k weapon damage?

I fail to see how casuals have anything to do with anything. Or are you a person who thinks cross healing is the only thing wrong?

I fail to see how casuals have anything to do with anything. I wish there were more casuals around. Outside of MYM I just feel like I'm fighting the same sweats for the last 4 years.

Urzigurumash · July 2023

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ugh I hate heavy attacking.
Isn't the sustain only an issue for CP campaign?.
I'm bias but nerfing sustain just sucks the fun out of everything, not just PvP. I hate heavy attacking.

I say just disable CP for all PVP.
No point in dividing everyone into so many campaigns.
CP is PVE only. Battlegrounds has been more fun anyway.
The horse simulator has been boring.

Fun in battlegrounds ends when high health polar wind spamming wardens join the match. Nothing more boring than that.

There’s a 58k Warden on PC NA who does just that in BGs. It takes 3 people to kill him and even with 3 people it takes a while. Imagine a team with 3 45k HP Wardens in 7k WD and a 58k HP warden throwing out heals. Yea good luck dying lol.

And what are even the odds of getting that team in a solo queue?

Ive never even encountered this scenario on PS5.

I don't see how it's fair to make polar wind a completely useless skill for normal 30ish k health wardens just because there's people in PvP that want to put all their attributes into health.

Just cap Max health in PvP. They already capped crit damage in PvP, why not health?

Don't miss the second part of this post's thesis: Buff Spores. That's the help the 30k HP Wardens would need and the justification for nerfing Arctic Wind. To me Arctic Wind "should be slotted" as a CC / Chilled applicator for the average offensive spec. I believe HP Scaled Heals have their place but seems it's best for overall balanced if they're better tuned in for "True Tanks", the way Greendragon Blood, Bitter Harvest, and Runic Defense are. If they're slotting those skills on an offensive spec it's likely for the secondary passive effects as much as the HP Scaled Heal. (tbd on Runic Defense, personally I use it on a 30k HP Brawler right now)

Of course we all remember that it was pretty much just the instant stun on Arctic Blast and the Snare Removal on Falcon's Swiftness that took Warden from the bottom back to the top of the PvP pack. Really solved Warden's problems, for a "skirmisher" class it came to be a bit lacking in relative mobility after the advent of RaT (and a wider ability to sustain than in 2018).

As for a cap on Max HP I've written novels against in the past but the short of it is, "True Tanks" have never really been a problem, not even when they were 70k HP Argonian DKs. Some people enjoy it, it's something different to do, let them be. Goliath and Vamp Ult are both pretty rare these days and Abyssal Sea hardly seems like the threat some suggested it would be. (tbd though)

Urzigurumash · July 2023

Weckless wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Also I agree with the premise of this thread, the buff to Spores a few patches back wasn't quite enough. It "should" be the main burst heal for an offensive spec.

Off-topic but related - from my perspective the Arcanist seem like the most well "Trinity-balanced" of all classes, it can DD/Tank/Heal really well - but not all at the same time. Seems like the lack of a reliable instant and strong direct self-heal goes a long way to accomplish this (That's a poorly informed perspective because I haven't been able to play much this patch)

As the estimable @DrNukenstein has said many times, a cast time /channel on burst heals (like Arcanist has with Heal Beam) pretty much instantly solves the "tanks can heal too much" thing, but doesn't so well solve the "damage dealers can heal too much" (i.e., still being able to kite off and heal to full instead of blockcasting). Arcanist seems to show a way to deal with that problem too. (Assuming it is a problem in itself, separate debate that gets into TES vs Trinity issues - which, in my opinion, reminds us exactly why Orc/Nord had a racial bonus to HP Regen..)

Let's be honest, doesn't make a ton of sense how you can block with your hands waving around when casting Arctic Blast.

This is essentially the same reason why Sorc has to play the way it is in the current meta (because of not having a reliable instant cast burst heal). Melee Sorcs have to use several proc sets and Pale Order to maximize offensive healing while in melee range, and ranged Sorcs have to either use shields or Crystal Weapon to maximize offensive healing.

There are several suggested approaches to fixing the block healing issue, as listed below:

1) Cast time on burst heal (imo not a good idea)
2) Ramping cost increase the more you hold block (PvErs won't like it)
3) Nerf tooltip value (Can be a solution, but it won't solve the problem completely)
4) Reduce max HP and sustain (this imo is probably the best approach for the current meta)

Very true, to me the defining characteristics of StamSorc vs StamDK in the old days were - cast-time heal with sustain versus instant heal with Extra Healing Taken (Dark Deal vs Green Dragonblood), Physical Damage Done + Stamina Cost Reduction versus Extra Healing Taken + Extra Block Mitigation. These things helped differentiate the "Berserker" from the "Knight" in the two "Warrior" classes that otherwise had the same damage dealing skills in Weapon Skills. To me this all made tons of thematic sense.

I think it's fair to say Sorc is the most well "Trinity Balanced" of the basegame classes. Sorc healers may have never been very popular outside of Trials but Negate Tanks have consistently been the most useful tanks in PvP. But, being unable to blockcast heals like DK and Templar, not having the Siphoning skills of NB, Sorc always had the most trouble "doing it all at once".

I think it's fair to also ponder whether this may be the underlying reason why on this forum "Nerf Sorc" has always been such a popular mantra at the same time this was met with fury by Sorc Mains:

While Ranged MagSorc was the most consistently strong DD spec in PvP from Day 1 until a few years ago, Sorc was always the least capable of "violating the Trinity" - something StamDK was always particularly good at it even when the class was "completely non-functional in PvP and in need of an exhaustive rework" (among the most outrageous allegations made on this forum and something for which I was ridiculed for opposing). (also please note, "just block and dodge" is as relevant to Curse and Fury as it is to Whip and Leap, sorry)

Anyhow I agree with #4 there, so again, would simply nerfing Healing and Damage in Battlespirit indirectly accomplish a nerf to Sustain and hence Max HP? I'm not sure, seems possible though right?

I'm confused about that last point because curse and Fury can't be blocked and once on you can't be dodged either lol

I got way off topic here but Fury's first hit can be dodged and all of both skills' damage can be blocked, right? People used to often wave off any allegation MagSorc was OP with "all of its skills can be blocked and/or dodged", but almost all damage can be blocked or dodged except AoE DoTs. Anyhow it's easy to tell that much of the "just block Curse" argument came from PC Duelists, much of the "Are you kidding me" counters came from Xbox Pugs/Zerglings like yours truly. Different formats, different "cultures", different concerns.

Urzigurumash · July 2023

Weckless wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Also I agree with the premise of this thread, the buff to Spores a few patches back wasn't quite enough. It "should" be the main burst heal for an offensive spec.

Off-topic but related - from my perspective the Arcanist seem like the most well "Trinity-balanced" of all classes, it can DD/Tank/Heal really well - but not all at the same time. Seems like the lack of a reliable instant and strong direct self-heal goes a long way to accomplish this (That's a poorly informed perspective because I haven't been able to play much this patch)

As the estimable @DrNukenstein has said many times, a cast time /channel on burst heals (like Arcanist has with Heal Beam) pretty much instantly solves the "tanks can heal too much" thing, but doesn't so well solve the "damage dealers can heal too much" (i.e., still being able to kite off and heal to full instead of blockcasting). Arcanist seems to show a way to deal with that problem too. (Assuming it is a problem in itself, separate debate that gets into TES vs Trinity issues - which, in my opinion, reminds us exactly why Orc/Nord had a racial bonus to HP Regen..)

Let's be honest, doesn't make a ton of sense how you can block with your hands waving around when casting Arctic Blast.

This is essentially the same reason why Sorc has to play the way it is in the current meta (because of not having a reliable instant cast burst heal). Melee Sorcs have to use several proc sets and Pale Order to maximize offensive healing while in melee range, and ranged Sorcs have to either use shields or Crystal Weapon to maximize offensive healing.

There are several suggested approaches to fixing the block healing issue, as listed below:

1) Cast time on burst heal (imo not a good idea)
2) Ramping cost increase the more you hold block (PvErs won't like it)
3) Nerf tooltip value (Can be a solution, but it won't solve the problem completely)
4) Reduce max HP and sustain (this imo is probably the best approach for the current meta)

Very true, to me the defining characteristics of StamSorc vs StamDK in the old days were - cast-time heal with sustain versus instant heal with Extra Healing Taken (Dark Deal vs Green Dragonblood), Physical Damage Done + Stamina Cost Reduction versus Extra Healing Taken + Extra Block Mitigation. These things helped differentiate the "Berserker" from the "Knight" in the two "Warrior" classes that otherwise had the same damage dealing skills in Weapon Skills. To me this all made tons of thematic sense.

I think it's fair to say Sorc is the most well "Trinity Balanced" of the basegame classes. Sorc healers may have never been very popular outside of Trials but Negate Tanks have consistently been the most useful tanks in PvP. But, being unable to blockcast heals like DK and Templar, not having the Siphoning skills of NB, Sorc always had the most trouble "doing it all at once".

I think it's fair to also ponder whether this may be the underlying reason why on this forum "Nerf Sorc" has always been such a popular mantra at the same time this was met with fury by Sorc Mains:

While Ranged MagSorc was the most consistently strong DD spec in PvP from Day 1 until a few years ago, Sorc was always the least capable of "violating the Trinity" - something StamDK was always particularly good at it even when the class was "completely non-functional in PvP and in need of an exhaustive rework" (among the most outrageous allegations made on this forum and something for which I was ridiculed for opposing). (also please note, "just block and dodge" is as relevant to Curse and Fury as it is to Whip and Leap, sorry)

Anyhow I agree with #4 there, so again, would simply nerfing Healing and Damage in Battlespirit indirectly accomplish a nerf to Sustain and hence Max HP? I'm not sure, seems possible though right?

And no I don't think nerfing sustain indirectly through damage and healing is the answer because then the specs that don't build as much into damage won't care and become even more unkillable. Especially classes with a health based heal.

What do you mean they "won't care"? Everybody would be more unkillable but this might demotivate building tankishly. Key word "might".

Weckless · July 2023

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Also I agree with the premise of this thread, the buff to Spores a few patches back wasn't quite enough. It "should" be the main burst heal for an offensive spec.

Off-topic but related - from my perspective the Arcanist seem like the most well "Trinity-balanced" of all classes, it can DD/Tank/Heal really well - but not all at the same time. Seems like the lack of a reliable instant and strong direct self-heal goes a long way to accomplish this (That's a poorly informed perspective because I haven't been able to play much this patch)

As the estimable @DrNukenstein has said many times, a cast time /channel on burst heals (like Arcanist has with Heal Beam) pretty much instantly solves the "tanks can heal too much" thing, but doesn't so well solve the "damage dealers can heal too much" (i.e., still being able to kite off and heal to full instead of blockcasting). Arcanist seems to show a way to deal with that problem too. (Assuming it is a problem in itself, separate debate that gets into TES vs Trinity issues - which, in my opinion, reminds us exactly why Orc/Nord had a racial bonus to HP Regen..)

Let's be honest, doesn't make a ton of sense how you can block with your hands waving around when casting Arctic Blast.

This is essentially the same reason why Sorc has to play the way it is in the current meta (because of not having a reliable instant cast burst heal). Melee Sorcs have to use several proc sets and Pale Order to maximize offensive healing while in melee range, and ranged Sorcs have to either use shields or Crystal Weapon to maximize offensive healing.

There are several suggested approaches to fixing the block healing issue, as listed below:

1) Cast time on burst heal (imo not a good idea)
2) Ramping cost increase the more you hold block (PvErs won't like it)
3) Nerf tooltip value (Can be a solution, but it won't solve the problem completely)
4) Reduce max HP and sustain (this imo is probably the best approach for the current meta)

Very true, to me the defining characteristics of StamSorc vs StamDK in the old days were - cast-time heal with sustain versus instant heal with Extra Healing Taken (Dark Deal vs Green Dragonblood), Physical Damage Done + Stamina Cost Reduction versus Extra Healing Taken + Extra Block Mitigation. These things helped differentiate the "Berserker" from the "Knight" in the two "Warrior" classes that otherwise had the same damage dealing skills in Weapon Skills. To me this all made tons of thematic sense.

I think it's fair to say Sorc is the most well "Trinity Balanced" of the basegame classes. Sorc healers may have never been very popular outside of Trials but Negate Tanks have consistently been the most useful tanks in PvP. But, being unable to blockcast heals like DK and Templar, not having the Siphoning skills of NB, Sorc always had the most trouble "doing it all at once".

I think it's fair to also ponder whether this may be the underlying reason why on this forum "Nerf Sorc" has always been such a popular mantra at the same time this was met with fury by Sorc Mains:

While Ranged MagSorc was the most consistently strong DD spec in PvP from Day 1 until a few years ago, Sorc was always the least capable of "violating the Trinity" - something StamDK was always particularly good at it even when the class was "completely non-functional in PvP and in need of an exhaustive rework" (among the most outrageous allegations made on this forum and something for which I was ridiculed for opposing). (also please note, "just block and dodge" is as relevant to Curse and Fury as it is to Whip and Leap, sorry)

Anyhow I agree with #4 there, so again, would simply nerfing Healing and Damage in Battlespirit indirectly accomplish a nerf to Sustain and hence Max HP? I'm not sure, seems possible though right?

And no I don't think nerfing sustain indirectly through damage and healing is the answer because then the specs that don't build as much into damage won't care and become even more unkillable. Especially classes with a health based heal.

What do you mean they "won't care"? Everybody would be more unkillable but this might demotivate building tankishly. Key word "might".

They wont care because they dont care about doing damage anyway just not dying

Weckless · July 2023

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Also I agree with the premise of this thread, the buff to Spores a few patches back wasn't quite enough. It "should" be the main burst heal for an offensive spec.

Off-topic but related - from my perspective the Arcanist seem like the most well "Trinity-balanced" of all classes, it can DD/Tank/Heal really well - but not all at the same time. Seems like the lack of a reliable instant and strong direct self-heal goes a long way to accomplish this (That's a poorly informed perspective because I haven't been able to play much this patch)

As the estimable @DrNukenstein has said many times, a cast time /channel on burst heals (like Arcanist has with Heal Beam) pretty much instantly solves the "tanks can heal too much" thing, but doesn't so well solve the "damage dealers can heal too much" (i.e., still being able to kite off and heal to full instead of blockcasting). Arcanist seems to show a way to deal with that problem too. (Assuming it is a problem in itself, separate debate that gets into TES vs Trinity issues - which, in my opinion, reminds us exactly why Orc/Nord had a racial bonus to HP Regen..)

Let's be honest, doesn't make a ton of sense how you can block with your hands waving around when casting Arctic Blast.

This is essentially the same reason why Sorc has to play the way it is in the current meta (because of not having a reliable instant cast burst heal). Melee Sorcs have to use several proc sets and Pale Order to maximize offensive healing while in melee range, and ranged Sorcs have to either use shields or Crystal Weapon to maximize offensive healing.

There are several suggested approaches to fixing the block healing issue, as listed below:

1) Cast time on burst heal (imo not a good idea)
2) Ramping cost increase the more you hold block (PvErs won't like it)
3) Nerf tooltip value (Can be a solution, but it won't solve the problem completely)
4) Reduce max HP and sustain (this imo is probably the best approach for the current meta)

Very true, to me the defining characteristics of StamSorc vs StamDK in the old days were - cast-time heal with sustain versus instant heal with Extra Healing Taken (Dark Deal vs Green Dragonblood), Physical Damage Done + Stamina Cost Reduction versus Extra Healing Taken + Extra Block Mitigation. These things helped differentiate the "Berserker" from the "Knight" in the two "Warrior" classes that otherwise had the same damage dealing skills in Weapon Skills. To me this all made tons of thematic sense.

I think it's fair to say Sorc is the most well "Trinity Balanced" of the basegame classes. Sorc healers may have never been very popular outside of Trials but Negate Tanks have consistently been the most useful tanks in PvP. But, being unable to blockcast heals like DK and Templar, not having the Siphoning skills of NB, Sorc always had the most trouble "doing it all at once".

I think it's fair to also ponder whether this may be the underlying reason why on this forum "Nerf Sorc" has always been such a popular mantra at the same time this was met with fury by Sorc Mains:

While Ranged MagSorc was the most consistently strong DD spec in PvP from Day 1 until a few years ago, Sorc was always the least capable of "violating the Trinity" - something StamDK was always particularly good at it even when the class was "completely non-functional in PvP and in need of an exhaustive rework" (among the most outrageous allegations made on this forum and something for which I was ridiculed for opposing). (also please note, "just block and dodge" is as relevant to Curse and Fury as it is to Whip and Leap, sorry)

Anyhow I agree with #4 there, so again, would simply nerfing Healing and Damage in Battlespirit indirectly accomplish a nerf to Sustain and hence Max HP? I'm not sure, seems possible though right?

I'm confused about that last point because curse and Fury can't be blocked and once on you can't be dodged either lol

I got way off topic here but Fury's first hit can be dodged and all of both skills' damage can be blocked, right? People used to often wave off any allegation MagSorc was OP with "all of its skills can be blocked and/or dodged", but almost all damage can be blocked or dodged except AoE DoTs. Anyhow it's easy to tell that much of the "just block Curse" argument came from PC Duelists, much of the "Are you kidding me" counters came from Xbox Pugs/Zerglings like yours truly. Different formats, different "cultures", different concerns.

No you cant block curse

StaticWave · July 2023

Urzigurumash wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ugh I hate heavy attacking.
Isn't the sustain only an issue for CP campaign?.
I'm bias but nerfing sustain just sucks the fun out of everything, not just PvP. I hate heavy attacking.

I say just disable CP for all PVP.
No point in dividing everyone into so many campaigns.
CP is PVE only. Battlegrounds has been more fun anyway.
The horse simulator has been boring.

Fun in battlegrounds ends when high health polar wind spamming wardens join the match. Nothing more boring than that.

There’s a 58k Warden on PC NA who does just that in BGs. It takes 3 people to kill him and even with 3 people it takes a while. Imagine a team with 3 45k HP Wardens in 7k WD and a 58k HP warden throwing out heals. Yea good luck dying lol.

And what are even the odds of getting that team in a solo queue?

Ive never even encountered this scenario on PS5.

I don't see how it's fair to make polar wind a completely useless skill for normal 30ish k health wardens just because there's people in PvP that want to put all their attributes into health.

Just cap Max health in PvP. They already capped crit damage in PvP, why not health?

Don't miss the second part of this post's thesis: Buff Spores. That's the help the 30k HP Wardens would need and the justification for nerfing Arctic Wind. To me Arctic Wind "should be slotted" as a CC / Chilled applicator for the average offensive spec. I believe HP Scaled Heals have their place but seems it's best for overall balanced if they're better tuned in for "True Tanks", the way Greendragon Blood, Bitter Harvest, and Runic Defense are. If they're slotting those skills on an offensive spec it's likely for the secondary passive effects as much as the HP Scaled Heal. (tbd on Runic Defense, personally I use it on a 30k HP Brawler right now)

Of course we all remember that it was pretty much just the instant stun on Arctic Blast and the Snare Removal on Falcon's Swiftness that took Warden from the bottom back to the top of the PvP pack. Really solved Warden's problems, for a "skirmisher" class it came to be a bit lacking in relative mobility after the advent of RaT (and a wider ability to sustain than in 2018).

As for a cap on Max HP I've written novels against in the past but the short of it is, "True Tanks" have never really been a problem, not even when they were 70k HP Argonian DKs. Some people enjoy it, it's something different to do, let them be. Goliath and Vamp Ult are both pretty rare these days and Abyssal Sea hardly seems like the threat some suggested it would be. (tbd though)

People are quick to shrug off the nerf call and ignore the buff part. It’s almost like they don’t want Spores buff and keep the status quo lol

Melzo · July 2023

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ugh I hate heavy attacking.
Isn't the sustain only an issue for CP campaign?.
I'm bias but nerfing sustain just sucks the fun out of everything, not just PvP. I hate heavy attacking.

I say just disable CP for all PVP.
No point in dividing everyone into so many campaigns.
CP is PVE only. Battlegrounds has been more fun anyway.
The horse simulator has been boring.

Fun in battlegrounds ends when high health polar wind spamming wardens join the match. Nothing more boring than that.

There’s a 58k Warden on PC NA who does just that in BGs. It takes 3 people to kill him and even with 3 people it takes a while. Imagine a team with 3 45k HP Wardens in 7k WD and a 58k HP warden throwing out heals. Yea good luck dying lol.

Solving most problems.
Increase healing and damage from magic and stamina stats. Where it leads. Players who invert in hp get powerful shields and healing skills dependent on max hp but lose a lot of damage but players with 30+ stamina or magic get more healing and damage. In fact, these are solutions to most problems. This will result in stable builds through max specs and less dependency on prox sets and overclocking weapon damage.

After all, this is how classes used to exist. And the players killed due to the abilities of the class and their hands and not proc sets.