Nerf Artic Blast/Polar Wind and buff Spores/Enchanted Growth

LittlePinkDot

Urzigurumash wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ugh I hate heavy attacking.
Isn't the sustain only an issue for CP campaign?.
I'm bias but nerfing sustain just sucks the fun out of everything, not just PvP. I hate heavy attacking.

I say just disable CP for all PVP.
No point in dividing everyone into so many campaigns.
CP is PVE only. Battlegrounds has been more fun anyway.
The horse simulator has been boring.

Fun in battlegrounds ends when high health polar wind spamming wardens join the match. Nothing more boring than that.

There’s a 58k Warden on PC NA who does just that in BGs. It takes 3 people to kill him and even with 3 people it takes a while. Imagine a team with 3 45k HP Wardens in 7k WD and a 58k HP warden throwing out heals. Yea good luck dying lol.

And what are even the odds of getting that team in a solo queue?

Ive never even encountered this scenario on PS5.

I don't see how it's fair to make polar wind a completely useless skill for normal 30ish k health wardens just because there's people in PvP that want to put all their attributes into health.

Just cap Max health in PvP. They already capped crit damage in PvP, why not health?

Don't miss the second part of this post's thesis: Buff Spores. That's the help the 30k HP Wardens would need and the justification for nerfing Arctic Wind. To me Arctic Wind "should be slotted" as a CC / Chilled applicator for the average offensive spec. I believe HP Scaled Heals have their place but seems it's best for overall balanced if they're better tuned in for "True Tanks", the way Greendragon Blood, Bitter Harvest, and Runic Defense are. If they're slotting those skills on an offensive spec it's likely for the secondary passive effects as much as the HP Scaled Heal. (tbd on Runic Defense, personally I use it on a 30k HP Brawler right now)

Of course we all remember that it was pretty much just the instant stun on Arctic Blast and the Snare Removal on Falcon's Swiftness that took Warden from the bottom back to the top of the PvP pack. Really solved Warden's problems, for a "skirmisher" class it came to be a bit lacking in relative mobility after the advent of RaT (and a wider ability to sustain than in 2018).

As for a cap on Max HP I've written novels against in the past but the short of it is, "True Tanks" have never really been a problem, not even when they were 70k HP Argonian DKs. Some people enjoy it, it's something different to do, let them be. Goliath and Vamp Ult are both pretty rare these days and Abyssal Sea hardly seems like the threat some suggested it would be. (tbd though)

Well maybe they should remove the crit dmg cap in PvP.
It's not fair that gets capped but not health. It's no wonder people are having a hard time killing tanks.

LittlePinkDot

StaticWave wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ugh I hate heavy attacking.
Isn't the sustain only an issue for CP campaign?.
I'm bias but nerfing sustain just sucks the fun out of everything, not just PvP. I hate heavy attacking.

I say just disable CP for all PVP.
No point in dividing everyone into so many campaigns.
CP is PVE only. Battlegrounds has been more fun anyway.
The horse simulator has been boring.

Fun in battlegrounds ends when high health polar wind spamming wardens join the match. Nothing more boring than that.

There’s a 58k Warden on PC NA who does just that in BGs. It takes 3 people to kill him and even with 3 people it takes a while. Imagine a team with 3 45k HP Wardens in 7k WD and a 58k HP warden throwing out heals. Yea good luck dying lol.

And what are even the odds of getting that team in a solo queue?

Ive never even encountered this scenario on PS5.

I don't see how it's fair to make polar wind a completely useless skill for normal 30ish k health wardens just because there's people in PvP that want to put all their attributes into health.

Just cap Max health in PvP. They already capped crit damage in PvP, why not health?

Don't miss the second part of this post's thesis: Buff Spores. That's the help the 30k HP Wardens would need and the justification for nerfing Arctic Wind. To me Arctic Wind "should be slotted" as a CC / Chilled applicator for the average offensive spec. I believe HP Scaled Heals have their place but seems it's best for overall balanced if they're better tuned in for "True Tanks", the way Greendragon Blood, Bitter Harvest, and Runic Defense are. If they're slotting those skills on an offensive spec it's likely for the secondary passive effects as much as the HP Scaled Heal. (tbd on Runic Defense, personally I use it on a 30k HP Brawler right now)

Of course we all remember that it was pretty much just the instant stun on Arctic Blast and the Snare Removal on Falcon's Swiftness that took Warden from the bottom back to the top of the PvP pack. Really solved Warden's problems, for a "skirmisher" class it came to be a bit lacking in relative mobility after the advent of RaT (and a wider ability to sustain than in 2018).

As for a cap on Max HP I've written novels against in the past but the short of it is, "True Tanks" have never really been a problem, not even when they were 70k HP Argonian DKs. Some people enjoy it, it's something different to do, let them be. Goliath and Vamp Ult are both pretty rare these days and Abyssal Sea hardly seems like the threat some suggested it would be. (tbd though)

People are quick to shrug off the nerf call and ignore the buff part. It’s almost like they don’t want Spores buff and keep the status quo lol

I would use spores if they eliminated the heal on Arctic blast but gave us the instant stun back.
I would switch back from polar wind to Arctic blast if we could have that instant stun back.

That delay on the stun nerf pushed everybody to polar wind.

React

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Well maybe they should remove the crit dmg cap in PvP.
It's not fair that gets capped but not health. It's no wonder people are having a hard time killing tanks.

This comment kind of indicates how misinformed you are about PVP mitigation.

The base crit damage cap is 125%. That number is already extremely high in PVP scenarios, and realistically is impossible to hit without other players providing (signifcant) buff sets for you (unless you're running some ganker or glass cannon build - i.e, not a realistic setup).

Regardless, there is also impen. When you take just the base impen value into account, you can now effectively go up to about 145% crit damage without losing out on any damage because of the cap - because your target is negating about 20% of your crit damage with just their base impen stat.

Then when you add things like impen, rallying, crit resist set bonuses, etc - the crit damage "cap" in pvp is actually not even achievable. Removing it would change nothing whatsoever in regards to "killing tanks". Most tanks don't even run much impen unless it is being provided by a group member.

LittlePinkDot

React wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Well maybe they should remove the crit dmg cap in PvP.
It's not fair that gets capped but not health. It's no wonder people are having a hard time killing tanks.

This comment kind of indicates how misinformed you are about PVP mitigation.

The base crit damage cap is 125%. That number is already extremely high in PVP scenarios, and realistically is impossible to hit without other players providing (signifcant) buff sets for you (unless you're running some ganker or glass cannon build - i.e, not a realistic setup).

Regardless, there is also impen. When you take just the base impen value into account, you can now effectively go up to about 145% crit damage without losing out on any damage because of the cap - because your target is negating about 20% of your crit damage with just their base impen stat.

Then when you add things like impen, rallying, crit resist set bonuses, etc - the crit damage "cap" in pvp is actually not even achievable. Removing it would change nothing whatsoever in regards to "killing tanks". Most tanks don't even run much impen unless it is being provided by a group member.

If the cap was unachievable, then why is it there at all?

Weckless

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

React wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Well maybe they should remove the crit dmg cap in PvP.
It's not fair that gets capped but not health. It's no wonder people are having a hard time killing tanks.

This comment kind of indicates how misinformed you are about PVP mitigation.

The base crit damage cap is 125%. That number is already extremely high in PVP scenarios, and realistically is impossible to hit without other players providing (signifcant) buff sets for you (unless you're running some ganker or glass cannon build - i.e, not a realistic setup).

Regardless, there is also impen. When you take just the base impen value into account, you can now effectively go up to about 145% crit damage without losing out on any damage because of the cap - because your target is negating about 20% of your crit damage with just their base impen stat.

Then when you add things like impen, rallying, crit resist set bonuses, etc - the crit damage "cap" in pvp is actually not even achievable. Removing it would change nothing whatsoever in regards to "killing tanks". Most tanks don't even run much impen unless it is being provided by a group member.

If the cap was unachievable, then why is it there at all?

For pve. It's not too common to get Major force and also running full divine with shadow mundus all medium with axes and khajit in pvp

Weckless

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Galeriano wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

Ugh I hate heavy attacking.
Isn't the sustain only an issue for CP campaign?.
I'm bias but nerfing sustain just sucks the fun out of everything, not just PvP. I hate heavy attacking.

I say just disable CP for all PVP.
No point in dividing everyone into so many campaigns.
CP is PVE only. Battlegrounds has been more fun anyway.
The horse simulator has been boring.

Fun in battlegrounds ends when high health polar wind spamming wardens join the match. Nothing more boring than that.

There’s a 58k Warden on PC NA who does just that in BGs. It takes 3 people to kill him and even with 3 people it takes a while. Imagine a team with 3 45k HP Wardens in 7k WD and a 58k HP warden throwing out heals. Yea good luck dying lol.

And what are even the odds of getting that team in a solo queue?

Ive never even encountered this scenario on PS5.

I don't see how it's fair to make polar wind a completely useless skill for normal 30ish k health wardens just because there's people in PvP that want to put all their attributes into health.

Just cap Max health in PvP. They already capped crit damage in PvP, why not health?

Don't miss the second part of this post's thesis: Buff Spores. That's the help the 30k HP Wardens would need and the justification for nerfing Arctic Wind. To me Arctic Wind "should be slotted" as a CC / Chilled applicator for the average offensive spec. I believe HP Scaled Heals have their place but seems it's best for overall balanced if they're better tuned in for "True Tanks", the way Greendragon Blood, Bitter Harvest, and Runic Defense are. If they're slotting those skills on an offensive spec it's likely for the secondary passive effects as much as the HP Scaled Heal. (tbd on Runic Defense, personally I use it on a 30k HP Brawler right now)

Of course we all remember that it was pretty much just the instant stun on Arctic Blast and the Snare Removal on Falcon's Swiftness that took Warden from the bottom back to the top of the PvP pack. Really solved Warden's problems, for a "skirmisher" class it came to be a bit lacking in relative mobility after the advent of RaT (and a wider ability to sustain than in 2018).

As for a cap on Max HP I've written novels against in the past but the short of it is, "True Tanks" have never really been a problem, not even when they were 70k HP Argonian DKs. Some people enjoy it, it's something different to do, let them be. Goliath and Vamp Ult are both pretty rare these days and Abyssal Sea hardly seems like the threat some suggested it would be. (tbd though)

People are quick to shrug off the nerf call and ignore the buff part. It’s almost like they don’t want Spores buff and keep the status quo lol

I would use spores if they eliminated the heal on Arctic blast but gave us the instant stun back.
I would switch back from polar wind to Arctic blast if we could have that instant stun back.

That delay on the stun nerf pushed everybody to polar wind.

This is exactly what the OP said. It's almost like yall don't even read the post

Weckless

Plus you'd get a better heal from spores if they did what he says regardless of what they did with arctic so what does it even have to do with anything. It's like saying "oh yea ill take a stronger heal but only if you give me a better stun too."

OBJnoob

Weckless wrote: »

Plus you'd get a better heal from spores if they did what he says regardless of what they did with arctic so what does it even have to do with anything. It's like saying "oh yea ill take a stronger heal but only if you give me a better stun too."

Well to be fair that's because wardens only have garbage stuns the same way sorcs only have garbage heals.

This topic is about nerfing BOTH morphs of the wardens burst heal. Because why? Their burst heal belongs in the green balance tree? Yay role play?

Effectively having to slot spores will steal a barslot from wardens. And damn right Arctic Blast will need to become a better stun then because otherwise it'll never be on anyone's bar ever again.

Arctic doesn't need nerfed and it doesn't need relocating either. Polar probably does.

Frankly wardens need to be left alone they've experienced too many big changes lately meanwhile the really OP specs run around doing what they do.

Of course wardens bristle at the idea. It isn't a good idea. Worse, it isn't an important idea.

Weckless

OBJnoob wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Plus you'd get a better heal from spores if they did what he says regardless of what they did with arctic so what does it even have to do with anything. It's like saying "oh yea ill take a stronger heal but only if you give me a better stun too."

Well to be fair that's because wardens only have garbage stuns the same way sorcs only have garbage heals.

This topic is about nerfing BOTH morphs of the wardens burst heal. Because why? Their burst heal belongs in the green balance tree? Yay role play?

Effectively having to slot spores will steal a barslot from wardens. And damn right Arctic Blast will need to become a better stun then because otherwise it'll never be on anyone's bar ever again.

Arctic doesn't need nerfed and it doesn't need relocating either. Polar probably does.

Frankly wardens need to be left alone they've experienced too many big changes lately meanwhile the really OP specs run around doing what they do.

Of course wardens bristle at the idea. It isn't a good idea. Worse, it isn't an important idea.

The person im responding to specifically said that they use Polar Wind. They also said they dont run high HP builds and have about 31k hp i believe. A buff to spores would be a buff for them regardless of what they ended up doing with arctic wind. Spores even has better passives from its tree like +% healing for being slotted and Major Mending when you heal with a green balance skill under I think 40% health. They aren't losing a bar slot theyre literally just getting a better heal.

That would be like if back when Magblades were still using Blessing of Restoration, Zos proposes the change to make Malevolent Offering a self burst heal, but they were gonna nerf Blessing, Magblades saying " well if youre going to nerf blessing and give me a healthy offering then I want Major berserk on combat prayer." Even though theyre already getting a stronger and better heal all they see is the nerf to their old one and their judgment is clouded.

Weckless

And the post literally says to make polar/arctic more offensive oriented to giving it its instant stun isn't a problem it just wants to shift the heal from it.

Honestly Arctic would be better if it stayed delayed but instead of it being pbaoe after 2 seconds from casting it; it went back to how it was where after getting hit with 2 tics (which should tic every second) it stuns you and the stun should preferably be unblockable. That would be a much more potent and deadly stun that would enable unblockable/dodgeable combos. You could even replace the heal with a delayed damage effect where whenever the stun hits they take x damage and are chilled and brittled.

Or you could give them the instant stun if thats what they want instant stuns with no delayed dmg attached arent as good as ppl think though. Theres a reason nobody runs fear anymore

OBJnoob

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

LittlePinkDot

Weckless wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Weckless wrote: »

Plus you'd get a better heal from spores if they did what he says regardless of what they did with arctic so what does it even have to do with anything. It's like saying "oh yea ill take a stronger heal but only if you give me a better stun too."

Well to be fair that's because wardens only have garbage stuns the same way sorcs only have garbage heals.

This topic is about nerfing BOTH morphs of the wardens burst heal. Because why? Their burst heal belongs in the green balance tree? Yay role play?

Effectively having to slot spores will steal a barslot from wardens. And damn right Arctic Blast will need to become a better stun then because otherwise it'll never be on anyone's bar ever again.

Arctic doesn't need nerfed and it doesn't need relocating either. Polar probably does.

Frankly wardens need to be left alone they've experienced too many big changes lately meanwhile the really OP specs run around doing what they do.

Of course wardens bristle at the idea. It isn't a good idea. Worse, it isn't an important idea.

The person im responding to specifically said that they use Polar Wind. They also said they dont run high HP builds and have about 31k hp i believe. A buff to spores would be a buff for them regardless of what they ended up doing with arctic wind. Spores even has better passives from its tree like +% healing for being slotted and Major Mending when you heal with a green balance skill under I think 40% health. They aren't losing a bar slot theyre literally just getting a better heal.

That would be like if back when Magblades were still using Blessing of Restoration, Zos proposes the change to make Malevolent Offering a self burst heal, but they were gonna nerf Blessing, Magblades saying " well if youre going to nerf blessing and give me a healthy offering then I want Major berserk on combat prayer." Even though theyre already getting a stronger and better heal all they see is the nerf to their old one and their judgment is clouded.

Actually I was using Arctic blast until they nerfed the stun. Then I switched to polar wind because of the nerf.

I already use spores instead of Vigor.
So my healing is all polar wind/spores.
But I would still rather have the stun back on Arctic blast. Its become really hard to catch people.

Now if only my arcanist could have such great healing skills...

Weckless

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Thats why they said to rework them. Make spores a burst heal that can heal you and maybe one other person and make arctic a better stun. Healers dont really even use spores anyway because combat prayer is better and they have budding seeds for healing multiple people

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

Melzo

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

Nonsensical argument that a skill does three things at once. It's like comparing netch or a similar sorcerer skill that gives the same buff only heals every 0.5 -1 second. The sorcerer's skill is clearly stronger. I even kick the netch out of the bar a lot in many builds. You can also compare the skills that give the Major Resolve buff. Who has the best skill? A necromancer or a sorcerer? For a sorcerer, the skill gives three effects at once, but for a necromancer, only two, and even then the second is worse than any of the remaining buffs of the sorcerer.

It's pretty stupid to compare one particular skill to another. It is necessary to compare the class as a whole or combinations of several skills.




For comparison, two skills that give Major Resolve.

Warden's Ice Fortress skill grants Major Resolve and Minor Protection buffs.

The sorcerer's Hurricane skill grants Major Resolve and Major Expedition buffs and deals AoE damage that increases by 20% over time. AoE damage deals the same amount of damage as DK claws or necromancer skeleton only they are separate skills and are worse in effectiveness than sorcerer AoE damage.

Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. It is necessary to remove the AoE damage from the skill and put it in a new skill so that you use two whole slots for the place of one. So will it be fair?

Weckless

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

Nonsensical argument that a skill does three things at once. It's like comparing netch or a similar sorcerer skill that gives the same buff only heals every 0.5 -1 second. The sorcerer's skill is clearly stronger. I even kick the netch out of the bar a lot in many builds. You can also compare the skills that give the Major Resolve buff. Who has the best skill? A necromancer or a sorcerer? For a sorcerer, the skill gives three effects at once, but for a necromancer, only two, and even then the second is worse than any of the remaining buffs of the sorcerer.

It's pretty stupid to compare one particular skill to another. It is necessary to compare the class as a whole or combinations of several skills.




For comparison, two skills that give Major Resolve.

Warden's Ice Fortress skill grants Major Resolve and Minor Protection buffs.

The sorcerer's Hurricane skill grants Major Resolve and Major Expedition buffs and deals AoE damage that increases by 20% over time. AoE damage deals the same amount of damage as DK claws or necromancer skeleton only they are separate skills and are worse in effectiveness than sorcerer AoE damage.

Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. It is necessary to remove the AoE damage from the skill and put it in a new skill so that you use two whole slots for the place of one. So will it be fair?

The netch also gives the equivalent of almost 500 recovery with no requirements and is free... so major brutality/sorcery, ~500 recovery, purge, small heal, Free. Can we please start being genuine and stop misrepresenting skills usefulness.

StaticWave

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

Nonsensical argument that a skill does three things at once. It's like comparing netch or a similar sorcerer skill that gives the same buff only heals every 0.5 -1 second. The sorcerer's skill is clearly stronger. I even kick the netch out of the bar a lot in many builds. You can also compare the skills that give the Major Resolve buff. Who has the best skill? A necromancer or a sorcerer? For a sorcerer, the skill gives three effects at once, but for a necromancer, only two, and even then the second is worse than any of the remaining buffs of the sorcerer.

It's pretty stupid to compare one particular skill to another. It is necessary to compare the class as a whole or combinations of several skills.




For comparison, two skills that give Major Resolve.

Warden's Ice Fortress skill grants Major Resolve and Minor Protection buffs.

The sorcerer's Hurricane skill grants Major Resolve and Major Expedition buffs and deals AoE damage that increases by 20% over time. AoE damage deals the same amount of damage as DK claws or necromancer skeleton only they are separate skills and are worse in effectiveness than sorcerer AoE damage.

Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. It is necessary to remove the AoE damage from the skill and put it in a new skill so that you use two whole slots for the place of one. So will it be fair?

Dude just stop. You clearly hate Sorc and every argument of yours is indicative of that. I actually will have to put you on ignore this time.

And for the record, I was specifically talking about the burst heal. No burst heal in the game is doing 3 things at once, that's a fact. I don't even care if you remove Minor Expedition or the damage from Hurricane. Most magsorcs don't even slot it, and losing the damage or Expedition won't hurt my stamsorc.

OBJnoob

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

I think you're guilty of "spreadsheet" balancing right now Static. You're not wrong that the warden class kit has a lot of multi-utility skills that basically gives it everything it needs. You're just ignoring the practicality of it still only being the 3rd best class. To be clear, Polar Windens are definitively the 3rd best spec to PvP with-- Arctic Blast wardens are middle of the pack. Then again 3rd place is also middle of the pack so I'm not even sure why I said that.

Removing a bar slot from them does make them worse of course.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

I think you're guilty of "spreadsheet" balancing right now Static. You're not wrong that the warden class kit has a lot of multi-utility skills that basically gives it everything it needs. You're just ignoring the practicality of it still only being the 3rd best class. To be clear, Polar Windens are definitively the 3rd best spec to PvP with-- Arctic Blast wardens are middle of the pack. Then again 3rd place is also middle of the pack so I'm not even sure why I said that.

Removing a bar slot from them does make them worse of course.

I don't think I appreciate that "spreadsheet" statement, considering I have been PvPing daily for the past 2 months for 4-5 hours a day, doing BGs, dueling, and Cyrodiil. I'm basing my judgement off of all my fights against good and bad Wardens during these 2 months, not some numbers on a spreadsheet lol.

Why does it need to be the 2nd or 1st best class to necessitate a nerf? I can still see issues with even worse classes and will gladly call for nerfs for those.

Warden is the equivalent of NB, in the sense that their bar space is so efficient they can afford to run 2 offensive skills and still have kill potential.

The Artic Blast Wardens I fight literally only has Deep Fissure and a spammable, yet they’re still able to kill people as decently as my full dmg stamsorc with 3 offensive skills. The combination of Artic Blast’s DoT, Chilled status effect, and Deep Fissure Burst on top of a spammable chunks and it's confusing as heck. I mean have you fought Magdens in Frostbite set with a charged ice staff front bar? They can double proc the Chilled status effect doing 1k dmg per instance. That's 2k dmg in 1 second, on top of other status effects, DoTs, their spammable, and Deep Fissure. It's baffling how they can still pull 4k DPS with merely 2 offensive abilities.

But that's not the point. I don't generally ask for damage nerfs. It would be fine and all if they were actually killable, but they aren't. The same Wardens that can pull 4k DPS, are also incredibly hard to kill. Ice Staff front bar + SnB back bar and they effectively have 70% block mitigation on both bars while still doing similar dmg to an Inferno build. The only way to kill them is by having so much pressure that they are forced to stay on back bar and get stam/mag checked, or by having so much burst that you can 100-0 them in 1 GCD. Guess what class can have that pressure and what class can 100-0 them? Yea that's right, only DK and NB can.

So idk man, saying Warden is only the 3rd best class behind NB and DK isn't a strong argument. If I'm calling for NB and DK nerfs without calling for Warden nerfs, then Warden will become the #1 class. Until then, I shouldn't ask for Warden nerfs? Why not just ask for nerfs to all 3 of them? I've seen plenty of DK nerf threads. I made a NB nerf thread, and got backlash for that. I made a Warden nerf thread, and I'm getting backlash too, so let's just not nerf them right?

Melzo

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

Nonsensical argument that a skill does three things at once. It's like comparing netch or a similar sorcerer skill that gives the same buff only heals every 0.5 -1 second. The sorcerer's skill is clearly stronger. I even kick the netch out of the bar a lot in many builds. You can also compare the skills that give the Major Resolve buff. Who has the best skill? A necromancer or a sorcerer? For a sorcerer, the skill gives three effects at once, but for a necromancer, only two, and even then the second is worse than any of the remaining buffs of the sorcerer.

It's pretty stupid to compare one particular skill to another. It is necessary to compare the class as a whole or combinations of several skills.




For comparison, two skills that give Major Resolve.

Warden's Ice Fortress skill grants Major Resolve and Minor Protection buffs.

The sorcerer's Hurricane skill grants Major Resolve and Major Expedition buffs and deals AoE damage that increases by 20% over time. AoE damage deals the same amount of damage as DK claws or necromancer skeleton only they are separate skills and are worse in effectiveness than sorcerer AoE damage.

Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. It is necessary to remove the AoE damage from the skill and put it in a new skill so that you use two whole slots for the place of one. So will it be fair?

Dude just stop. You clearly hate Sorc and every argument of yours is indicative of that. I actually will have to put you on ignore this time.

And for the record, I was specifically talking about the burst heal. No burst heal in the game is doing 3 things at once, that's a fact. I don't even care if you remove Minor Expedition or the damage from Hurricane. Most magsorcs don't even slot it, and losing the damage or Expedition won't hurt my stamsorc.

Direct healing dk. Gives healing. + bonus to healing from lost health + plus buff to health regeneration . I play without a vampire and use health regeneration.

I don't see the point in your argument because skills can only have 10 effects at a time. For a necromancer, if you combine the skeleton of a mage and a skill that gives a buff that gives 6 armor, then it will still be worse than a sorcerer's hurricane. Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. Exactly your logic.

If you remove the dot effect or direct healing from the polar wind, then it will be put into another skill, since the warden will become much weaker. And you will again come to the forum to tell which your sorcerer is weak and which warden is strong. The class was crap for a long time and people wrote every day to strengthen the class and that it would not be crap like a necromancer now and you come and tell that the class is too strong even though in fact it is in the middle. This is not even the strongest class and does not go into the top 2. This is ridiculous.

I've said before and I'll say it now. You are a hypocrite. Trying to strengthen the sorcerer and weaken everyone else.

StaticWave

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

Nonsensical argument that a skill does three things at once. It's like comparing netch or a similar sorcerer skill that gives the same buff only heals every 0.5 -1 second. The sorcerer's skill is clearly stronger. I even kick the netch out of the bar a lot in many builds. You can also compare the skills that give the Major Resolve buff. Who has the best skill? A necromancer or a sorcerer? For a sorcerer, the skill gives three effects at once, but for a necromancer, only two, and even then the second is worse than any of the remaining buffs of the sorcerer.

It's pretty stupid to compare one particular skill to another. It is necessary to compare the class as a whole or combinations of several skills.




For comparison, two skills that give Major Resolve.

Warden's Ice Fortress skill grants Major Resolve and Minor Protection buffs.

The sorcerer's Hurricane skill grants Major Resolve and Major Expedition buffs and deals AoE damage that increases by 20% over time. AoE damage deals the same amount of damage as DK claws or necromancer skeleton only they are separate skills and are worse in effectiveness than sorcerer AoE damage.

Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. It is necessary to remove the AoE damage from the skill and put it in a new skill so that you use two whole slots for the place of one. So will it be fair?

Dude just stop. You clearly hate Sorc and every argument of yours is indicative of that. I actually will have to put you on ignore this time.

And for the record, I was specifically talking about the burst heal. No burst heal in the game is doing 3 things at once, that's a fact. I don't even care if you remove Minor Expedition or the damage from Hurricane. Most magsorcs don't even slot it, and losing the damage or Expedition won't hurt my stamsorc.

Direct healing dk. Gives healing. + bonus to healing from lost health + plus buff to health regeneration + dot damage + damage when you are hit. I play without a vampire and use health regeneration.

I don't see the point in your argument because skills can only have 10 effects at a time. For a necromancer, if you combine the skeleton of a mage and a skill that gives a buff that gives 6 armor, then it will still be worse than a sorcerer's hurricane. Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. Exactly your logic.

If you remove the dot effect or direct healing from the polar wind, then it will be put into another skill, since the warden will become much weaker. And you will again come to the forum to tell which your sorcerer is weak and which warden is strong. The class was crap for a long time and people wrote every day to strengthen the class and that it would not be crap like a necromancer now and you come and tell that the class is too strong even though in fact it is in the middle. This is not even the strongest class and does not go into the top 2. This is ridiculous.

I've said before and I'll say it now. You are a hypocrite. Trying to strengthen the sorcerer and weaken everyone else.

Lmao ok I’m a hypocrite for asking for nerfs to one of the strongest classes in the game and wanting buffs for one of the weakest specs in the game.

You clearly have a negative agenda towards Sorc, and weirdly, to me. So let’s end it here since it’s not going to be any more constructive, if it ever was. Please move on to another thread 🤣

Anti_Virus

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

Nonsensical argument that a skill does three things at once. It's like comparing netch or a similar sorcerer skill that gives the same buff only heals every 0.5 -1 second. The sorcerer's skill is clearly stronger. I even kick the netch out of the bar a lot in many builds. You can also compare the skills that give the Major Resolve buff. Who has the best skill? A necromancer or a sorcerer? For a sorcerer, the skill gives three effects at once, but for a necromancer, only two, and even then the second is worse than any of the remaining buffs of the sorcerer.

It's pretty stupid to compare one particular skill to another. It is necessary to compare the class as a whole or combinations of several skills.




For comparison, two skills that give Major Resolve.

Warden's Ice Fortress skill grants Major Resolve and Minor Protection buffs.

The sorcerer's Hurricane skill grants Major Resolve and Major Expedition buffs and deals AoE damage that increases by 20% over time. AoE damage deals the same amount of damage as DK claws or necromancer skeleton only they are separate skills and are worse in effectiveness than sorcerer AoE damage.

Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. It is necessary to remove the AoE damage from the skill and put it in a new skill so that you use two whole slots for the place of one. So will it be fair?

Dude just stop. You clearly hate Sorc and every argument of yours is indicative of that. I actually will have to put you on ignore this time.

And for the record, I was specifically talking about the burst heal. No burst heal in the game is doing 3 things at once, that's a fact. I don't even care if you remove Minor Expedition or the damage from Hurricane. Most magsorcs don't even slot it, and losing the damage or Expedition won't hurt my stamsorc.

Direct healing dk. Gives healing. + bonus to healing from lost health + plus buff to health regeneration . I play without a vampire and use health regeneration.

I don't see the point in your argument because skills can only have 10 effects at a time. For a necromancer, if you combine the skeleton of a mage and a skill that gives a buff that gives 6 armor, then it will still be worse than a sorcerer's hurricane. Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. Exactly your logic.

If you remove the dot effect or direct healing from the polar wind, then it will be put into another skill, since the warden will become much weaker. And you will again come to the forum to tell which your sorcerer is weak and which warden is strong. The class was crap for a long time and people wrote every day to strengthen the class and that it would not be crap like a necromancer now and you come and tell that the class is too strong even though in fact it is in the middle. This is not even the strongest class and does not go into the top 2. This is ridiculous.

I've said before and I'll say it now. You are a hypocrite. Trying to strengthen the sorcerer and weaken everyone else.

Speaking facts

Melzo

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

Nonsensical argument that a skill does three things at once. It's like comparing netch or a similar sorcerer skill that gives the same buff only heals every 0.5 -1 second. The sorcerer's skill is clearly stronger. I even kick the netch out of the bar a lot in many builds. You can also compare the skills that give the Major Resolve buff. Who has the best skill? A necromancer or a sorcerer? For a sorcerer, the skill gives three effects at once, but for a necromancer, only two, and even then the second is worse than any of the remaining buffs of the sorcerer.

It's pretty stupid to compare one particular skill to another. It is necessary to compare the class as a whole or combinations of several skills.




For comparison, two skills that give Major Resolve.

Warden's Ice Fortress skill grants Major Resolve and Minor Protection buffs.

The sorcerer's Hurricane skill grants Major Resolve and Major Expedition buffs and deals AoE damage that increases by 20% over time. AoE damage deals the same amount of damage as DK claws or necromancer skeleton only they are separate skills and are worse in effectiveness than sorcerer AoE damage.

Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. It is necessary to remove the AoE damage from the skill and put it in a new skill so that you use two whole slots for the place of one. So will it be fair?

Dude just stop. You clearly hate Sorc and every argument of yours is indicative of that. I actually will have to put you on ignore this time.

And for the record, I was specifically talking about the burst heal. No burst heal in the game is doing 3 things at once, that's a fact. I don't even care if you remove Minor Expedition or the damage from Hurricane. Most magsorcs don't even slot it, and losing the damage or Expedition won't hurt my stamsorc.

Direct healing dk. Gives healing. + bonus to healing from lost health + plus buff to health regeneration + dot damage + damage when you are hit. I play without a vampire and use health regeneration.

I don't see the point in your argument because skills can only have 10 effects at a time. For a necromancer, if you combine the skeleton of a mage and a skill that gives a buff that gives 6 armor, then it will still be worse than a sorcerer's hurricane. Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. Exactly your logic.

If you remove the dot effect or direct healing from the polar wind, then it will be put into another skill, since the warden will become much weaker. And you will again come to the forum to tell which your sorcerer is weak and which warden is strong. The class was crap for a long time and people wrote every day to strengthen the class and that it would not be crap like a necromancer now and you come and tell that the class is too strong even though in fact it is in the middle. This is not even the strongest class and does not go into the top 2. This is ridiculous.

I've said before and I'll say it now. You are a hypocrite. Trying to strengthen the sorcerer and weaken everyone else.

Lmao ok I’m a hypocrite for asking for nerfs to one of the strongest classes in the game and wanting buffs for one of the weakest specs in the game.

You clearly have a negative agenda towards Sorc, and weirdly, to me. So let’s end it here since it’s not going to be any more constructive, if it ever was. Please move on to another thread 🤣

Your comment above shows how hard it is to kill a warden but have you ever thought that killing a stam sorcerer is even harder?? Dk and nb are considered in the first place, but they are much easier to kill. They do not stun crowds of enemies every 7 seconds and do not run away from combat when they want.

I offered obvious solutions to many problems. It doesn't seem to interest you. But you are very interested in nerfing to hell with everything that does not suit you and that does not suit you too much. Because of people like you, pvp suffers. Because there were so many nerfs in the game that it’s almost impossible to play without certain sets, and the meta has become the only possible way to play otherwise you won’t kill anyone.

I played both dk and warden. And it is very difficult to fight against a stam sorcerers. With warden, I have never been able to kill a stam sorcerer for the event. His combo destroys in 5-6 seconds. I fought for the event and killed both dk and nb and wardens, but never at all so that I could kill a stam sorcerer .

Only playing as DK I was able to kill a stam sorcerer, but because of the ring and the skill that heals due to crits, this sorcerer and most sorcerers heal more than any other class and at the same time he does not need to press healing skills every 6-10 seconds.

I am very much dissatisfied with this specification of the sorcerer. Why does another sorcerer enter the bg and kill 20 players each and no one can catch up with him or kill him. I don't remember any class that they are capable of. And you do not need to bring dk or nb.

You can say that this cyber cutlet came to play, but why do these cyber cutlets come to the stam of the sorcerer?? And even dk and nb are hardly capable of this. Nb is considered top 1 class but I was the least likely to die from them as they are so predictable that it is easy to avoid damage. But it is impossible to avoid Wrath of Elements and curse and streak with stun. Each sorcerer uses three skills at the start of combat and nothing can be dodged or blocked. Is this honest?? I don't remember that warden's stun worked so well or any other skill.

Due to the popularity of the DK, he is considered to be the strongest class, but in fact, the fight against the sorcerer is the most difficult.

Weckless

OBJnoob wrote: »

"Balancing the game around casuals is what got us where we are now."

Oh it's casuals that found out how to get 70+% uptime on corrosive? It's casuals that use Vate Destro and BRP dual wield on every build? Casuals figured out how to hit 20k spec bows? Casuals run 45k HP wardens with 7k weapon damage?

I fail to see how casuals have anything to do with anything. Or are you a person who thinks cross healing is the only thing wrong?

I fail to see how casuals have anything to do with anything. I wish there were more casuals around. Outside of MYM I just feel like I'm fighting the same sweats for the last 4 years.

Um cast times on ultimates
Minmum travel times
Sets like Maras Balm
Making procs crit
Lowering light and heavy attack damage

Just to name a few changes made to help casual "low APM" players compete in pvp.
We arent talking about casual pvpers were talking about casual players that hop in a bg for their daily exp

OBJnoob

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker. [/quot

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

I think you're guilty of "spreadsheet" balancing right now Static. You're not wrong that the warden class kit has a lot of multi-utility skills that basically gives it everything it needs. You're just ignoring the practicality of it still only being the 3rd best class. To be clear, Polar Windens are definitively the 3rd best spec to PvP with-- Arctic Blast wardens are middle of the pack. Then again 3rd place is also middle of the pack so I'm not even sure why I said that.

Removing a bar slot from them does make them worse of course.

I don't think I appreciate that "spreadsheet" statement, considering I have been PvPing daily for the past 2 months for 4-5 hours a day, doing BGs, dueling, and Cyrodiil. I'm basing my judgement off of all my fights against good and bad Wardens during these 2 months, not some numbers on a spreadsheet lol.

Why does it need to be the 2nd or 1st best class to necessitate a nerf? I can still see issues with even worse classes and will gladly call for nerfs for those.

Warden is the equivalent of NB, in the sense that their bar space is so efficient they can afford to run 2 offensive skills and still have kill potential.

The Artic Blast Wardens I fight literally only has Deep Fissure and a spammable, yet they’re still able to kill people as decently as my full dmg stamsorc with 3 offensive skills. The combination of Artic Blast’s DoT, Chilled status effect, and Deep Fissure Burst on top of a spammable chunks and it's confusing as heck. I mean have you fought Magdens in Frostbite set with a charged ice staff front bar? They can double proc the Chilled status effect doing 1k dmg per instance. That's 2k dmg in 1 second, on top of other status effects, DoTs, their spammable, and Deep Fissure. It's baffling how they can still pull 4k DPS with merely 2 offensive abilities.

But that's not the point. I don't generally ask for damage nerfs. It would be fine and all if they were actually killable, but they aren't. The same Wardens that can pull 4k DPS, are also incredibly hard to kill. Ice Staff front bar + SnB back bar and they effectively have 70% block mitigation on both bars while still doing similar dmg to an Inferno build. The only way to kill them is by having so much pressure that they are forced to stay on back bar and get stam/mag checked, or by having so much burst that you can 100-0 them in 1 GCD. Guess what class can have that pressure and what class can 100-0 them? Yea that's right, only DK and NB can.

So idk man, saying Warden is only the 3rd best class behind NB and DK isn't a strong argument. If I'm calling for NB and DK nerfs without calling for Warden nerfs, then Warden will become the #1 class. Until then, I shouldn't ask for Warden nerfs? Why not just ask for nerfs to all 3 of them? I've seen plenty of DK nerf threads. I made a NB nerf thread, and got backlash for that. I made a Warden nerf thread, and I'm getting backlash too, so let's just not nerf them right?

Well I didn't mean to make it personal or offend you, but yes I did use the phrase "spreadsheet" because I figured it'd make you feel some kind of way. I know you're an avid PvPer and I know (second hand,) how good you are. I defer to you on matters of fact. On this, however, I feel you have the wrong opinion.

Sure, there are little specifics that could be criticized about even the worst toons, but I think it would show poor prioritization to focus on them when so many truly egregious things are going on for year(s) now. Which blends well, I hope, with my other point about how many times Arctic has been tinkered with recently. It's not time. It's not appropriate. It's not needed.

Things are basically the sum of their parts. If the 3rd place spec has one skill that's overperforming but the spec itself is not then I would say the skill isn't much of an issue. Especially if the skill's different morph is actually the problem.

Nerfing DK and NB would make warden the best class at the moment. Yeah, okay, but the gap between current 3rd and 4th would still be what it is now, whether 3rd becomes 1st or stays 3rd. To find balance you buff at one end and nerf at the other. Playing around in the middle isn't an efficient way to get where we want to be.

So I understand we're all blue in the face from talking about DK and NB, and ZOS won't do anything, so we as enthusiastic players and forum goers need something else to talk about. I'm myself currently involved in a topic about templars javelin/beam/meteor combo. So I'm aware I'm a bit of a hypocrite. I empathize with you. I do the same thing from time to time.

The only reason I'm bothering to stonewall here is because Arctic has just had so dang many changes lately it's just someone else's turn, LOL.

I also think you're over-valuing the secondary and tertiary effects on Arctic. The stun isn't super reliable. The DoT doesn't even hit hard, or at all, if you just take two steps back. The heal isn't as strong as some classes burst heals.

DK can use shattering rocks for a heal, stun, and to proc minor brutality. Or the other morph will do a stun, immobilize, and minor brutality. NB has a PBAoE skill that stuns, inflicts major cowardice, and procs major resolve for them. And their kit is so dang strong they don't even use it. Probably because they have multiple ultis that'll stun for them, a good spammable, and an execute. None of which warden has. Streak is a mobility tool, an unblockable stun, and does damage. Which of these is Arctic better than? How insanely bad will Arctic be if the heal is removed? So now the warden in your hypothetical who surprises you with the DPS he can muster with only two skills and a brief shout-out to the Arctic DoT has to do it with only two skills period? Meh. Well taking Arctic off the bar and putting spores on isn't gonna help that problem, is it?

StaticWave

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

Nonsensical argument that a skill does three things at once. It's like comparing netch or a similar sorcerer skill that gives the same buff only heals every 0.5 -1 second. The sorcerer's skill is clearly stronger. I even kick the netch out of the bar a lot in many builds. You can also compare the skills that give the Major Resolve buff. Who has the best skill? A necromancer or a sorcerer? For a sorcerer, the skill gives three effects at once, but for a necromancer, only two, and even then the second is worse than any of the remaining buffs of the sorcerer.

It's pretty stupid to compare one particular skill to another. It is necessary to compare the class as a whole or combinations of several skills.




For comparison, two skills that give Major Resolve.

Warden's Ice Fortress skill grants Major Resolve and Minor Protection buffs.

The sorcerer's Hurricane skill grants Major Resolve and Major Expedition buffs and deals AoE damage that increases by 20% over time. AoE damage deals the same amount of damage as DK claws or necromancer skeleton only they are separate skills and are worse in effectiveness than sorcerer AoE damage.

Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. It is necessary to remove the AoE damage from the skill and put it in a new skill so that you use two whole slots for the place of one. So will it be fair?

Dude just stop. You clearly hate Sorc and every argument of yours is indicative of that. I actually will have to put you on ignore this time.

And for the record, I was specifically talking about the burst heal. No burst heal in the game is doing 3 things at once, that's a fact. I don't even care if you remove Minor Expedition or the damage from Hurricane. Most magsorcs don't even slot it, and losing the damage or Expedition won't hurt my stamsorc.

Direct healing dk. Gives healing. + bonus to healing from lost health + plus buff to health regeneration + dot damage + damage when you are hit. I play without a vampire and use health regeneration.

I don't see the point in your argument because skills can only have 10 effects at a time. For a necromancer, if you combine the skeleton of a mage and a skill that gives a buff that gives 6 armor, then it will still be worse than a sorcerer's hurricane. Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. Exactly your logic.

If you remove the dot effect or direct healing from the polar wind, then it will be put into another skill, since the warden will become much weaker. And you will again come to the forum to tell which your sorcerer is weak and which warden is strong. The class was crap for a long time and people wrote every day to strengthen the class and that it would not be crap like a necromancer now and you come and tell that the class is too strong even though in fact it is in the middle. This is not even the strongest class and does not go into the top 2. This is ridiculous.

I've said before and I'll say it now. You are a hypocrite. Trying to strengthen the sorcerer and weaken everyone else.

Lmao ok I’m a hypocrite for asking for nerfs to one of the strongest classes in the game and wanting buffs for one of the weakest specs in the game.

You clearly have a negative agenda towards Sorc, and weirdly, to me. So let’s end it here since it’s not going to be any more constructive, if it ever was. Please move on to another thread 🤣

Your comment above shows how hard it is to kill a warden but have you ever thought that killing a stam sorcerer is even harder?? Dk and nb are considered in the first place, but they are much easier to kill. They do not stun crowds of enemies every 7 seconds and do not run away from combat when they want.

I offered obvious solutions to many problems. It doesn't seem to interest you. But you are very interested in nerfing to hell with everything that does not suit you and that does not suit you too much. Because of people like you, pvp suffers. Because there were so many nerfs in the game that it’s almost impossible to play without certain sets, and the meta has become the only possible way to play otherwise you won’t kill anyone.

I played both dk and warden. And it is very difficult to fight against a stam sorcerers. With warden, I have never been able to kill a stam sorcerer for the event. His combo destroys in 5-6 seconds. I fought for the event and killed both dk and nb and wardens, but never at all so that I could kill a stam sorcerer .

Only playing as DK I was able to kill a stam sorcerer, but because of the ring and the skill that heals due to crits, this sorcerer and most sorcerers heal more than any other class and at the same time he does not need to press healing skills every 6-10 seconds.

I am very much dissatisfied with this specification of the sorcerer. Why does another sorcerer enter the bg and kill 20 players each and no one can catch up with him or kill him. I don't remember any class that they are capable of. And you do not need to bring dk or nb.

You can say that this cyber cutlet came to play, but why do these cyber cutlets come to the stam of the sorcerer?? And even dk and nb are hardly capable of this. Nb is considered top 1 class but I was the least likely to die from them as they are so predictable that it is easy to avoid damage. But it is impossible to avoid Wrath of Elements and curse and streak with stun. Each sorcerer uses three skills at the start of combat and nothing can be dodged or blocked. Is this honest?? I don't remember that warden's stun worked so well or any other skill.

Due to the popularity of the DK, he is considered to be the strongest class, but in fact, the fight against the sorcerer is the most difficult.

I kill stamsorcs faster than I kill Wardens, and I see Wardens killing stamsorcs everyday.

Your experience is not the same as mine, we can end that here

Anti_Virus

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

Nonsensical argument that a skill does three things at once. It's like comparing netch or a similar sorcerer skill that gives the same buff only heals every 0.5 -1 second. The sorcerer's skill is clearly stronger. I even kick the netch out of the bar a lot in many builds. You can also compare the skills that give the Major Resolve buff. Who has the best skill? A necromancer or a sorcerer? For a sorcerer, the skill gives three effects at once, but for a necromancer, only two, and even then the second is worse than any of the remaining buffs of the sorcerer.

It's pretty stupid to compare one particular skill to another. It is necessary to compare the class as a whole or combinations of several skills.




For comparison, two skills that give Major Resolve.

Warden's Ice Fortress skill grants Major Resolve and Minor Protection buffs.

The sorcerer's Hurricane skill grants Major Resolve and Major Expedition buffs and deals AoE damage that increases by 20% over time. AoE damage deals the same amount of damage as DK claws or necromancer skeleton only they are separate skills and are worse in effectiveness than sorcerer AoE damage.

Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. It is necessary to remove the AoE damage from the skill and put it in a new skill so that you use two whole slots for the place of one. So will it be fair?

Dude just stop. You clearly hate Sorc and every argument of yours is indicative of that. I actually will have to put you on ignore this time.

And for the record, I was specifically talking about the burst heal. No burst heal in the game is doing 3 things at once, that's a fact. I don't even care if you remove Minor Expedition or the damage from Hurricane. Most magsorcs don't even slot it, and losing the damage or Expedition won't hurt my stamsorc.

Direct healing dk. Gives healing. + bonus to healing from lost health + plus buff to health regeneration + dot damage + damage when you are hit. I play without a vampire and use health regeneration.

I don't see the point in your argument because skills can only have 10 effects at a time. For a necromancer, if you combine the skeleton of a mage and a skill that gives a buff that gives 6 armor, then it will still be worse than a sorcerer's hurricane. Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. Exactly your logic.

If you remove the dot effect or direct healing from the polar wind, then it will be put into another skill, since the warden will become much weaker. And you will again come to the forum to tell which your sorcerer is weak and which warden is strong. The class was crap for a long time and people wrote every day to strengthen the class and that it would not be crap like a necromancer now and you come and tell that the class is too strong even though in fact it is in the middle. This is not even the strongest class and does not go into the top 2. This is ridiculous.

I've said before and I'll say it now. You are a hypocrite. Trying to strengthen the sorcerer and weaken everyone else.

Lmao ok I’m a hypocrite for asking for nerfs to one of the strongest classes in the game and wanting buffs for one of the weakest specs in the game.

You clearly have a negative agenda towards Sorc, and weirdly, to me. So let’s end it here since it’s not going to be any more constructive, if it ever was. Please move on to another thread 🤣

Your comment above shows how hard it is to kill a warden but have you ever thought that killing a stam sorcerer is even harder?? Dk and nb are considered in the first place, but they are much easier to kill. They do not stun crowds of enemies every 7 seconds and do not run away from combat when they want.

I offered obvious solutions to many problems. It doesn't seem to interest you. But you are very interested in nerfing to hell with everything that does not suit you and that does not suit you too much. Because of people like you, pvp suffers. Because there were so many nerfs in the game that it’s almost impossible to play without certain sets, and the meta has become the only possible way to play otherwise you won’t kill anyone.

I played both dk and warden. And it is very difficult to fight against a stam sorcerers. With warden, I have never been able to kill a stam sorcerer for the event. His combo destroys in 5-6 seconds. I fought for the event and killed both dk and nb and wardens, but never at all so that I could kill a stam sorcerer .

Only playing as DK I was able to kill a stam sorcerer, but because of the ring and the skill that heals due to crits, this sorcerer and most sorcerers heal more than any other class and at the same time he does not need to press healing skills every 6-10 seconds.

I am very much dissatisfied with this specification of the sorcerer. Why does another sorcerer enter the bg and kill 20 players each and no one can catch up with him or kill him. I don't remember any class that they are capable of. And you do not need to bring dk or nb.

You can say that this cyber cutlet came to play, but why do these cyber cutlets come to the stam of the sorcerer?? And even dk and nb are hardly capable of this. Nb is considered top 1 class but I was the least likely to die from them as they are so predictable that it is easy to avoid damage. But it is impossible to avoid Wrath of Elements and curse and streak with stun. Each sorcerer uses three skills at the start of combat and nothing can be dodged or blocked. Is this honest?? I don't remember that warden's stun worked so well or any other skill.

Due to the popularity of the DK, he is considered to be the strongest class, but in fact, the fight against the sorcerer is the most difficult.

Almost all his posts are either nerfs for other classes in some shape or form or complaints about his favorite class(Sorcerer) not having “This or that” and his suggestions are so biased too, without consideration for PVE players.

Weckless

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

Nonsensical argument that a skill does three things at once. It's like comparing netch or a similar sorcerer skill that gives the same buff only heals every 0.5 -1 second. The sorcerer's skill is clearly stronger. I even kick the netch out of the bar a lot in many builds. You can also compare the skills that give the Major Resolve buff. Who has the best skill? A necromancer or a sorcerer? For a sorcerer, the skill gives three effects at once, but for a necromancer, only two, and even then the second is worse than any of the remaining buffs of the sorcerer.

It's pretty stupid to compare one particular skill to another. It is necessary to compare the class as a whole or combinations of several skills.




For comparison, two skills that give Major Resolve.

Warden's Ice Fortress skill grants Major Resolve and Minor Protection buffs.

The sorcerer's Hurricane skill grants Major Resolve and Major Expedition buffs and deals AoE damage that increases by 20% over time. AoE damage deals the same amount of damage as DK claws or necromancer skeleton only they are separate skills and are worse in effectiveness than sorcerer AoE damage.

Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. It is necessary to remove the AoE damage from the skill and put it in a new skill so that you use two whole slots for the place of one. So will it be fair?

Dude just stop. You clearly hate Sorc and every argument of yours is indicative of that. I actually will have to put you on ignore this time.

And for the record, I was specifically talking about the burst heal. No burst heal in the game is doing 3 things at once, that's a fact. I don't even care if you remove Minor Expedition or the damage from Hurricane. Most magsorcs don't even slot it, and losing the damage or Expedition won't hurt my stamsorc.

Direct healing dk. Gives healing. + bonus to healing from lost health + plus buff to health regeneration + dot damage + damage when you are hit. I play without a vampire and use health regeneration.

I don't see the point in your argument because skills can only have 10 effects at a time. For a necromancer, if you combine the skeleton of a mage and a skill that gives a buff that gives 6 armor, then it will still be worse than a sorcerer's hurricane. Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. Exactly your logic.

If you remove the dot effect or direct healing from the polar wind, then it will be put into another skill, since the warden will become much weaker. And you will again come to the forum to tell which your sorcerer is weak and which warden is strong. The class was crap for a long time and people wrote every day to strengthen the class and that it would not be crap like a necromancer now and you come and tell that the class is too strong even though in fact it is in the middle. This is not even the strongest class and does not go into the top 2. This is ridiculous.

I've said before and I'll say it now. You are a hypocrite. Trying to strengthen the sorcerer and weaken everyone else.

Lmao ok I’m a hypocrite for asking for nerfs to one of the strongest classes in the game and wanting buffs for one of the weakest specs in the game.

You clearly have a negative agenda towards Sorc, and weirdly, to me. So let’s end it here since it’s not going to be any more constructive, if it ever was. Please move on to another thread 🤣

Your comment above shows how hard it is to kill a warden but have you ever thought that killing a stam sorcerer is even harder?? Dk and nb are considered in the first place, but they are much easier to kill. They do not stun crowds of enemies every 7 seconds and do not run away from combat when they want.

I offered obvious solutions to many problems. It doesn't seem to interest you. But you are very interested in nerfing to hell with everything that does not suit you and that does not suit you too much. Because of people like you, pvp suffers. Because there were so many nerfs in the game that it’s almost impossible to play without certain sets, and the meta has become the only possible way to play otherwise you won’t kill anyone.

I played both dk and warden. And it is very difficult to fight against a stam sorcerers. With warden, I have never been able to kill a stam sorcerer for the event. His combo destroys in 5-6 seconds. I fought for the event and killed both dk and nb and wardens, but never at all so that I could kill a stam sorcerer .

Only playing as DK I was able to kill a stam sorcerer, but because of the ring and the skill that heals due to crits, this sorcerer and most sorcerers heal more than any other class and at the same time he does not need to press healing skills every 6-10 seconds.

I am very much dissatisfied with this specification of the sorcerer. Why does another sorcerer enter the bg and kill 20 players each and no one can catch up with him or kill him. I don't remember any class that they are capable of. And you do not need to bring dk or nb.

You can say that this cyber cutlet came to play, but why do these cyber cutlets come to the stam of the sorcerer?? And even dk and nb are hardly capable of this. Nb is considered top 1 class but I was the least likely to die from them as they are so predictable that it is easy to avoid damage. But it is impossible to avoid Wrath of Elements and curse and streak with stun. Each sorcerer uses three skills at the start of combat and nothing can be dodged or blocked. Is this honest?? I don't remember that warden's stun worked so well or any other skill.

Due to the popularity of the DK, he is considered to be the strongest class, but in fact, the fight against the sorcerer is the most difficult.

I kill stamsorcs faster than I kill Wardens, and I see Wardens killing stamsorcs everyday.

Your experience is not the same as mine, we can end that here[/quote

Stamsorcs survive only by putting enough pressure on someone to prevent them from doing damage back lol
Once a stam sorc is on the back foot its over. There is no playing defensive on stam sorc and no real way to recover once youve hit that red zone. Wardens can live for as long as their resources last

Weckless

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Melzo wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Well the major mending thing really is a non-factor because I'd assume every warden is already using Living Trellis and Lotus Blossom-- which proc whatever passives need proccing simply by light attacking and by taking damage. So whether or not the heal on spores is or would be bigger is kinda up for debate. It isn't as though the green balance tree is underutilized.

Spores (haven't used the skill literally in like 5 years, since I was stam-healing on a Bowden, so just slap me if I'm wrong,) hits multiple people and that is what makes it viable if a Warden ever wanted to be a true healer. It doesn't need buffing for that-- it already is that. It heals in a decently large cone I believe, kinda like Blessing.

For healing oneself spores will never match Polar Wind, nor should it, because it is multitarget. And it doesn't have the HoT. So if from hearing this you think to yourself, "well jeez noob, then I guess polar Wind shouldn't reach out and heal one extra person." And bam. I agree.

But this is basically the only nerf I would want to see. Because an HP scaling heal being found in a class's tank tree isn't that strange at all. Wardens give themselves minor toughness. Having things scale off of max HP is clearly supposed to be a thing for them. While the game as a whole may be suffering from this tactic, we should be careful, because if polar Wind is nerfed too hard AND then we get what the game really needs which is some sort of battlespirit nerf to HP-- then we've just neutered an entire spec.

So to me this thread just seems like putting the cart before the horse. Let's ask for what we actually need and then see where Polar Wind stands.

And if we nerf both morphs at the same time then what do they have to fall back on? Spores? Okay spores takes the place of Arctic, no big deal (not a big enough deal to be proposing,) except now we have wardens running around no longer stacking max health, no longer having a stun, still having a bad spammable, and still needing to go out of class for an execute. Which is impossible if you're using an ice staff.

You've just got a rotten mess of a class that can only heal in PvP.

So. Yeah. I can't speak for anybody else-- and your responses to other people might or might not be pretty accurate @Weckless -- but as a whole I think this is one of the worst ideas I've ever heard.

Polar Wind is overperforming-- absolutely. Arctic is literally just fine. And the thing that really made me roll my eyes was in the original post when it was said that "Arctic shouldn't scale off offensive stats, period." Umm, okay? Why? Doesn't everything else? So it can't scale off weapon damage and it shouldn't scale off max HP, what the heck is it gonna scale with??

Wardens have been adjusted multiple times recently, and a lot of it has had to do with this exact thing. Isn't it time to just move on? For chrissake we're talking about the 3rd best class. The 3rd. I implore you to see it my way. Who knows, maybe you're both right, it just isn't super important.

The HP thing can and should be fixed for the entire game, not just for wardens. Please let's focus on that.

Artic just needs to be a reliable stun that also deals damage, not do 3 things for 1 bar slot. Have you not noticed how every other class does not have a burst heal that can do 3 things?

Warden already saves a ton of bar space with Scorch giving Major + Minor Breach and a delayed burst, Bird of Prey giving Major Expedition + Snare cleanse + Minor Berserk, Green Lotus giving Major Prophecy + heal on light/heavy attacks, Netch giving Major Sorcery + a cleanse and mini heal, and Ice Fortress giving Major Resolve + Minor Protection. That’s 5 abilities providing every basic necessary buffs for the cost of 5 bar slots. The remaining 5 can be dedicated to a stun, a spammable, a burst heal, an extra damage ability, and an extra heal.

Currently, Artic Blast fills 3 slots in that remaining 5. Removing the burst heal from Artic and buffing Spores would make it lose 1 extra slot, but it’s not like Warden will suddenly be weaker.

Nonsensical argument that a skill does three things at once. It's like comparing netch or a similar sorcerer skill that gives the same buff only heals every 0.5 -1 second. The sorcerer's skill is clearly stronger. I even kick the netch out of the bar a lot in many builds. You can also compare the skills that give the Major Resolve buff. Who has the best skill? A necromancer or a sorcerer? For a sorcerer, the skill gives three effects at once, but for a necromancer, only two, and even then the second is worse than any of the remaining buffs of the sorcerer.

It's pretty stupid to compare one particular skill to another. It is necessary to compare the class as a whole or combinations of several skills.




For comparison, two skills that give Major Resolve.

Warden's Ice Fortress skill grants Major Resolve and Minor Protection buffs.

The sorcerer's Hurricane skill grants Major Resolve and Major Expedition buffs and deals AoE damage that increases by 20% over time. AoE damage deals the same amount of damage as DK claws or necromancer skeleton only they are separate skills and are worse in effectiveness than sorcerer AoE damage.

Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. It is necessary to remove the AoE damage from the skill and put it in a new skill so that you use two whole slots for the place of one. So will it be fair?

Dude just stop. You clearly hate Sorc and every argument of yours is indicative of that. I actually will have to put you on ignore this time.

And for the record, I was specifically talking about the burst heal. No burst heal in the game is doing 3 things at once, that's a fact. I don't even care if you remove Minor Expedition or the damage from Hurricane. Most magsorcs don't even slot it, and losing the damage or Expedition won't hurt my stamsorc.

Direct healing dk. Gives healing. + bonus to healing from lost health + plus buff to health regeneration + dot damage + damage when you are hit. I play without a vampire and use health regeneration.

I don't see the point in your argument because skills can only have 10 effects at a time. For a necromancer, if you combine the skeleton of a mage and a skill that gives a buff that gives 6 armor, then it will still be worse than a sorcerer's hurricane. Conclusion: you need to nerf the sorcerer. Exactly your logic.

If you remove the dot effect or direct healing from the polar wind, then it will be put into another skill, since the warden will become much weaker. And you will again come to the forum to tell which your sorcerer is weak and which warden is strong. The class was crap for a long time and people wrote every day to strengthen the class and that it would not be crap like a necromancer now and you come and tell that the class is too strong even though in fact it is in the middle. This is not even the strongest class and does not go into the top 2. This is ridiculous.

I've said before and I'll say it now. You are a hypocrite. Trying to strengthen the sorcerer and weaken everyone else.

Lmao ok I’m a hypocrite for asking for nerfs to one of the strongest classes in the game and wanting buffs for one of the weakest specs in the game.

You clearly have a negative agenda towards Sorc, and weirdly, to me. So let’s end it here since it’s not going to be any more constructive, if it ever was. Please move on to another thread 🤣

Your comment above shows how hard it is to kill a warden but have you ever thought that killing a stam sorcerer is even harder?? Dk and nb are considered in the first place, but they are much easier to kill. They do not stun crowds of enemies every 7 seconds and do not run away from combat when they want.

I offered obvious solutions to many problems. It doesn't seem to interest you. But you are very interested in nerfing to hell with everything that does not suit you and that does not suit you too much. Because of people like you, pvp suffers. Because there were so many nerfs in the game that it’s almost impossible to play without certain sets, and the meta has become the only possible way to play otherwise you won’t kill anyone.

I played both dk and warden. And it is very difficult to fight against a stam sorcerers. With warden, I have never been able to kill a stam sorcerer for the event. His combo destroys in 5-6 seconds. I fought for the event and killed both dk and nb and wardens, but never at all so that I could kill a stam sorcerer .

Only playing as DK I was able to kill a stam sorcerer, but because of the ring and the skill that heals due to crits, this sorcerer and most sorcerers heal more than any other class and at the same time he does not need to press healing skills every 6-10 seconds.

I am very much dissatisfied with this specification of the sorcerer. Why does another sorcerer enter the bg and kill 20 players each and no one can catch up with him or kill him. I don't remember any class that they are capable of. And you do not need to bring dk or nb.

You can say that this cyber cutlet came to play, but why do these cyber cutlets come to the stam of the sorcerer?? And even dk and nb are hardly capable of this. Nb is considered top 1 class but I was the least likely to die from them as they are so predictable that it is easy to avoid damage. But it is impossible to avoid Wrath of Elements and curse and streak with stun. Each sorcerer uses three skills at the start of combat and nothing can be dodged or blocked. Is this honest?? I don't remember that warden's stun worked so well or any other skill.

Due to the popularity of the DK, he is considered to be the strongest class, but in fact, the fight against the sorcerer is the most difficult.

I kill stamsorcs faster than I kill Wardens, and I see Wardens killing stamsorcs everyday.

Your experience is not the same as mine, we can end that here

Stamsorcs survive only by putting enough pressure on someone to prevent them from doing damage back lol
Once a stam sorc is on the back foot its over. There is no playing defensive on stam sorc and no real way to recover once youve hit that red zone. Wardens can live for as long as their resources last

Sorc really is the only class that can have full resources and not be able to recover lol

LittlePinkDot

As someone who's never been able to decide what my "main" is, I'm a master of none.
I have both a stam sorc and a stam warden.
And while I do seem to get alot more deaths on my stam sorc, I seem to get more kills too. (FYI Restoration back bar is great on stam sorc, more heals)
And I think this is because on my warden I have a hard time lining up the delayed burst from deep fissure to connect when I use Wrecking blow then Dawnbreaker.
People also frequently just get out of the way easily since I don't have a stun.

My stam sorc seems easier to get kills with because when an opponent is in execute range I just spin to win with not much real aiming required. And hopefully curse goes off when I need it. If they manage to move out of range I can ping them with shrouded daggers.
Shes a unique build that can proc Diamond's victory 100%