Ball groups destroying everything fun about pvp

Turtle_Bot · May 2023

AuraNebula wrote: »

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Would you walk into a veteran hardmode trial without assembling a cohesive group that plays off of each other's strengths? No. Why would you walk into Cyrodiil that way?

Cyrodiil is designed for group play. You can enter solo, but you won't be able to take a keep or do much of anything else that way.

Solo PVP is in Imperial City. Yes, you occasionally get groups there, but the area is so much smaller and the NPC's so much more threatening that you can kite them into other encounters and mitigate their advantage, see how quick a group dissolves when a boss shows up and a gate opens.

You either adapt to the content you are playing or get left behind. It's that simple.

I'm going to start off by saying I have nothing against ball groups. They're great and are needed in PvP. They help make things exciting.

However Cyrodiil is not specifically for groups only. You can 1vx, 2vx, 3vx, 1v1, etc. It is pretty much designed for everyone and is not specifically for groups only.

I'm just tired of hearing this group only narrative. Solo play is just as valid as group play. Lots of solos are taking resources, making call outs, setting down camps, and helping to siege.

This exactly. This whole "cyrodiil is for groups only" narrative has completely ruined Cyrodiil in recent times.

As someone else said previously

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

I vaguely remember the old combat lead Wrobel talking about "gladiators versus farmers" and the need for the game to be fun for both. These threads will go nowhere until ZOS remembers this.

This needs to be remembered, because currently the game is designed for the farmers only and everyone else is either just food or stays out of the way while the farmers roll over the map with no recourse.

Because the farmers (ball groups) have become so overbearingly strong over the past few years, there's almost no reason to go into cyrodiil as a gladiator anymore since you can't do anything without either a ball group or a faction stack rolling up to kill you because those are the only 2 viable ways to play in cyrodiil currently.

Even BR is getting to this point now so a previously balanced campaign where gladiators could go to test their skills against other gladiators and more reasonably sized groups has fallen to the whole play as ball groups/faction stacks or go somewhere else. IC is also getting ball groups more frequently now, and IC is supposed to be "the area for solo/small scale", but is being overran at times and made unplayable for those not in the online ball groups alliance.

This kind of infestation of such an overbearing playstyle is taking a lot away from the game and as such needs to be reigned in and if that means ball groups need to adapt and improve with the times just like the rest of us have to all the time, then so be it.

ErMurazor · May 2023

Marcus684 wrote: »

LordeGian wrote: »

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

Most people here aren't saying that players shouldn't be able to group up and fine-tune their builds for group play, and plenty of us understand that ball group play isn't easy or lacks skill. Everyone should get the benefits of skillful builds and play, whether its solo, small-man or large group. The issue for me and many others that I see commenting are that the pendulum has swung too far towards group play vs. disorganized. Yes, highly-tuned groups should absolutely win vs. equal numbers or greater every time unless they mess up. Currently though I've seen a few ball groups that can survive against and repeatedly wipe many times their number, to the point that their only counter is an opposing ball of similar quality, and to me this is just too far out of balance. FIghting them is so frustrating that most of the skilled soloers that I regularly see just refuse to engage them, leaving the B, C and D teams to get farmed by them.

The most highly skilled solo player shouldn't be able to survive against unlimited odds, no matter how much effort they put into getting to the top, and neither should the most highly skilled ball group. Everyone needs to lose sometimes.

Edit: word choice

You haven't played this game for a long time have you? Ball groups have been nerfed again and again over the years. To the point that most of the groups left this game.

Marcus684 · May 2023

ErMurazor wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

LordeGian wrote: »

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

Most people here aren't saying that players shouldn't be able to group up and fine-tune their builds for group play, and plenty of us understand that ball group play isn't easy or lacks skill. Everyone should get the benefits of skillful builds and play, whether its solo, small-man or large group. The issue for me and many others that I see commenting are that the pendulum has swung too far towards group play vs. disorganized. Yes, highly-tuned groups should absolutely win vs. equal numbers or greater every time unless they mess up. Currently though I've seen a few ball groups that can survive against and repeatedly wipe many times their number, to the point that their only counter is an opposing ball of similar quality, and to me this is just too far out of balance. FIghting them is so frustrating that most of the skilled soloers that I regularly see just refuse to engage them, leaving the B, C and D teams to get farmed by them.

The most highly skilled solo player shouldn't be able to survive against unlimited odds, no matter how much effort they put into getting to the top, and neither should the most highly skilled ball group. Everyone needs to lose sometimes.

Edit: word choice

You haven't played this game for a long time have you? Ball groups have been nerfed again and again over the years. To the point that most of the groups left this game.

Are you serious or just being sarcastic? I PvP in NA/PC/GH nearly every night on one of 12 different characters, and the ball groups have definitely NOT left and are stronger than ever. It's the same thing over and over: while the front lines are between Ash/Nik/Roe and Ales/Bleaks/Chal, AD ball group A will ride up to Ray and knock the doors down and run upstairs, waiting for us to head up there so they can run laps. Once they're cleared out (as often as not because they got their fill and jumped out) and we're back to trying to push the map, EP ball A does the same thing at Glade, or maybe it's AD ball B or even AD ball A back for round 2. It happens often enough that I and a few others have taken to wasting our time loitering at back keeps to try to catch them when they first arrive and hopefully slow them down enough that we prevent them from getting inside the inner keep, but sometimes they get inside no matter what we do.

Maybe your perspective is different because your group has drifted away, which continuously happens. When's the last time anyone saw Drac, EG or CB in GH? Some of the members of those guilds are still around and running with new groups, but most of the old guilds have faded away and been replaced by new ones, and some of the current guild groups have used the tools that ZOS gave us to put together balls that, when functioning well, are nigh unkillable.

ShadowProc · May 2023

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Would you walk into a veteran hardmode trial without assembling a cohesive group that plays off of each other's strengths? No. Why would you walk into Cyrodiil that way?

Cyrodiil is designed for group play. You can enter solo, but you won't be able to take a keep or do much of anything else that way.

Solo PVP is in Imperial City. Yes, you occasionally get groups there, but the area is so much smaller and the NPC's so much more threatening that you can kite them into other encounters and mitigate their advantage, see how quick a group dissolves when a boss shows up and a gate opens.

You either adapt to the content you are playing or get left behind. It's that simple.

And your missing the point. Cohesive groups should win against disorganized players. The problem is they are being carried unnecessarily from sets that make farming even easier.

I mean come on. Take a step back and look at and see that a set that pulls noobs together to be slaughtered is in the game. How does that mKe sense?

They did it probably thinking the lag is being caused by players not dying quickly enough in contested areas.

Problem is it's not the ungrouped players. It's the selfish ball groups farming AP. I am not innocent either. I did it to before I realized I was part of the problem.

Top level groups can't kill each other either. That is a problem. Heal stacking is number one problem in pvp right now.

A close second is DKs.

ShadowProc · May 2023

ErMurazor wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

LordeGian wrote: »

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

Most people here aren't saying that players shouldn't be able to group up and fine-tune their builds for group play, and plenty of us understand that ball group play isn't easy or lacks skill. Everyone should get the benefits of skillful builds and play, whether its solo, small-man or large group. The issue for me and many others that I see commenting are that the pendulum has swung too far towards group play vs. disorganized. Yes, highly-tuned groups should absolutely win vs. equal numbers or greater every time unless they mess up. Currently though I've seen a few ball groups that can survive against and repeatedly wipe many times their number, to the point that their only counter is an opposing ball of similar quality, and to me this is just too far out of balance. FIghting them is so frustrating that most of the skilled soloers that I regularly see just refuse to engage them, leaving the B, C and D teams to get farmed by them.

The most highly skilled solo player shouldn't be able to survive against unlimited odds, no matter how much effort they put into getting to the top, and neither should the most highly skilled ball group. Everyone needs to lose sometimes.

Edit: word choice

You haven't played this game for a long time have you? Ball groups have been nerfed again and again over the years. To the point that most of the groups left this game.

That is not true nor is it the reason players left. They left because of lag and balancing.

Nerfed? They added proxy det, plague break, VD , dark convergence, etc. All of which significantly reduced the skill level required for a ball group to be successful.

Nerfed you say? Lmao.

CGPsaint · May 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

Top level groups can't kill each other either. That is a problem. Heal stacking is number one problem in pvp right now.

A close second is DKs.

Wait. You're saying that a specific class shouldn't be able to have 40K+ health, max resistances, and still be able to burst you down in 2 seconds? Makes me think that the devs all main DKs if/when they PvP.

OBJnoob · May 2023

AuraNebula wrote: »

I'm going to start off by saying I have nothing against ball groups. They're great and are needed in PvP. They help make things exciting.

However Cyrodiil is not specifically for groups only. You can 1vx, 2vx, 3vx, 1v1, etc. It is pretty much designed for everyone and is not specifically for groups only.

I'm just tired of hearing this group only narrative. Solo play is just as valid as group play. Lots of solos are taking resources, making call outs, setting down camps, and helping to siege.

There's nothing wrong with soloing, Xing, duos, small scaling, tower farming... Yes, these are all very valid ways to play. I understand that some people have come out in defense of ball groups and so you want to establish your own legitimacy but let's keep the context in mind. This isn't a discussion about getting rid of solo play. You aren't "on defense," here.

This is, sadly, a discussion about the illegitimacy of ball groups. Which is honestly just an attack on large groups in general, since a ball group is nothing more than a good group. Like an Xer is nothing more than a soloer who is really good at it.

And in that context I have to say yes Cyrodiil is obviously designed for group play. The primary objective-- not of players perhaps but of Cyrodiil-- is to capture castles. Specifically emp keeps and the occasional scroll. Solo players CAN do all of these things but the amount of time it takes and the likelihood of failure is what makes it pretty clearly a group oriented activity.

AuraNebula · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

AuraNebula wrote: »

I'm going to start off by saying I have nothing against ball groups. They're great and are needed in PvP. They help make things exciting.

However Cyrodiil is not specifically for groups only. You can 1vx, 2vx, 3vx, 1v1, etc. It is pretty much designed for everyone and is not specifically for groups only.

I'm just tired of hearing this group only narrative. Solo play is just as valid as group play. Lots of solos are taking resources, making call outs, setting down camps, and helping to siege.

There's nothing wrong with soloing, Xing, duos, small scaling, tower farming... Yes, these are all very valid ways to play. I understand that some people have come out in defense of ball groups and so you want to establish your own legitimacy but let's keep the context in mind. This isn't a discussion about getting rid of solo play. You aren't "on defense," here.

This is, sadly, a discussion about the illegitimacy of ball groups. Which is honestly just an attack on large groups in general, since a ball group is nothing more than a good group. Like an Xer is nothing more than a soloer who is really good at it.

And in that context I have to say yes Cyrodiil is obviously designed for group play. The primary objective-- not of players perhaps but of Cyrodiil-- is to capture castles. Specifically emp keeps and the occasional scroll. Solo players CAN do all of these things but the amount of time it takes and the likelihood of failure is what makes it pretty clearly a group oriented activity.

I run in a ball group. I also play solo. So I don't know where this "you aren't on defense here" is coming from.

I'm saying that Cyrodiil wasn't designed for group play only. Yes capturing castles helps you win the game. However, I see scouts making call outs and not large groups and they are usually solo players. There is the constant need for resources to be taken. You don't want to send large groups to take over valuable resources that help sway the point objective. You ask for solos to go, or they do it on their own.

The whole ESO mantra is play how you want. I'm just tired of people telling other players they most conform to xyz because that's how it is in their minds. Solo players do help alliances win campaigns. Unless you want only zergs and ball groups to take over resources.

Small scale group play is also just as valid. None of these people should expect to win vs. a ball group on skill alone. Work together and siege them down. You also do not need to be in a group to siege my dude.

Thecompton73 · May 2023

LordeGian wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

LordeGian wrote: »

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

Omg you missed it entirely. Playing in ball groups is easiest thing to do in pvp. Anyone who has played that style, and moved on to small scale/solo, will tell you it's much harder solo. Myself included
That was true even before sets like VD, PB, etc were introduced. Then they introduced a set to stack ungrounded players together to make it even easier. Lol. How can you say that with a straight face?

if it was easy everyone would play, it's certainly much easier to assemble your solo build and walk around Cyrodill, grouping with randoms and playing the way you want...

You clearly didn't understand what I meant by "difficult", to play in real ballgroups.

You need correct build, be part of a group, be committed to schedules, have specific addons configured, know how to follow orders, know how to think cooperatively, have focus (as I explained about seeing players trying to play in ballgroups but just couldn't keep it together or focused) faithfully follow the leader, trust their allies, among other things.

You're confusing exactly what I said, it's not a player being carried by a ballgroup, it's being part of it.

You couldn't be more wrong, it's too easy, and thus boring. Tried it and hated how utterly mindless you had to be: it's just stack on crown and spam the abilities you're assigned to buff the group and pop an ulti when the crown says.

Turtle_Bot · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

This is, sadly, a discussion about the illegitimacy of ball groups. Which is honestly just an attack on large groups in general, since a ball group is nothing more than a good group. Like an Xer is nothing more than a soloer who is really good at it.

No-one is saying they want ball groups gone from the game, people are just asking that they be treated to the same balancing decisions the rest of us have to go through when we build and play the game.

Ball groups should absolutely have an advantage over unorganised groups and they always will because coordination and teamwork will always be stronger than a random group, but at the moment the design of sets and heal stacking mechanics in the game has made it so that ball groups essentially have god-mode active all the time as long as they wear the designated sets and click their AoE sticky HoTs once every 10 seconds.

HoT stacking and the pull sets are completely carrying ball groups currently, to the point that even the mediocre ball groups perform just as well as the top tier ones (I have seen ball groups running for years now and the caliber of player running in the majority of the current ball groups is just bad compared to what they used to be).

No-one wants the power removed from ball groups, just have them actually put some work, effort and skill into achieving that level of power that they are currently getting for free just because everything stacks without limit.

Like I said before, removing HoT stacking means ball groups need to put effort into actively maintaining their healing and defense which takes away from their ability to have a reliable counter play to every potential counter or niche scenario they may encounter.

It's called balance, they still have their extreme power over other playstyles, it just allows for counter play to exist and be effective, which is what balancing is all about.

Cast_El · May 2023

Juts avoid them, split, don't stack.
If you see ball group running into you don't go back like everyone else do, go left or right and you will be fine

xylena_lazarow · May 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This exactly. This whole "cyrodiil is for groups only" narrative has completely ruined Cyrodiil in recent times.

OBJnoob wrote: »

People are saying Cyrodiil is meant for groups because group play

Gonna add to this, ball groups are not the only valid group play. Casual zergs, solo surfing, joining pugs, smallscaling... all valid group playstyles that deserve a place in Cyrodiil, and once had before ZOS completely lost sight of group power creep.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but at the moment the design of sets and heal stacking mechanics in the game has made it so that ball groups essentially have god-mode active all the time as long as they wear the designated sets and click their AoE sticky HoTs once every 10 seconds

Yea it's gross, not that there isn't a learning curve or skill going into their comp and strat, but once you're there it wraps around to anti-skill gameplay like face-tanking ults and casually standing in red siege circles. One of the worst offenders is Snow Treaders, allowing them to trivially ignore things like Caltrops and Oil Catapults. Even some of the hardcore ball groupers I've chatted with would have no problem with Snow Treaders being outright deleted from PvP.

Turtle_Bot · May 2023

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This exactly. This whole "cyrodiil is for groups only" narrative has completely ruined Cyrodiil in recent times.

OBJnoob wrote: »

People are saying Cyrodiil is meant for groups because group play

Gonna add to this, ball groups are not the only valid group play. Casual zergs, solo surfing, joining pugs, smallscaling... all valid group playstyles that deserve a place in Cyrodiil, and once had before ZOS completely lost sight of group power creep.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but at the moment the design of sets and heal stacking mechanics in the game has made it so that ball groups essentially have god-mode active all the time as long as they wear the designated sets and click their AoE sticky HoTs once every 10 seconds

Yea it's gross, not that there isn't a learning curve or skill going into their comp and strat, but once you're there it wraps around to anti-skill gameplay like face-tanking ults and casually standing in red siege circles. One of the worst offenders is Snow Treaders, allowing them to trivially ignore things like Caltrops and Oil Catapults. Even some of the hardcore ball groupers I've chatted with would have no problem with Snow Treaders being outright deleted from PvP.

Yep, just had one ball group, I bombed them under a negate and with siegefire (oils, coldfire balista, etc) raining down on them, nope, healthbars didn't even budge because they already had all their HoTs ticking before the negate was cast on them, so even though it was a direct bomb (on the entire group) all under the negate and siegefire and no abilities could be cast by them, they just casually walked out of it like nothing had happened and continued on farming the pugs that were around. That is not even remotely close to being balanced and needs fixing.

No group should be able to survive under that kind of pressure combined with counter play combined with that amount of damage, all being applied at the same time. That kind of thing is supposed to counter ball groups, but nope, not this one, they just walked out and the health bars (all at 40k) didn't even budge because of all of the stacked HoTs that were passively healing for far more than any achievable damage could be inflicted even though they couldn't cast any heals at that time.

OBJnoob · May 2023

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This exactly. This whole "cyrodiil is for groups only" narrative has completely ruined Cyrodiil in recent times.

OBJnoob wrote: »

People are saying Cyrodiil is meant for groups because group play

Gonna add to this, ball groups are not the only valid group play. Casual zergs, solo surfing, joining pugs, smallscaling... all valid group playstyles that deserve a place in Cyrodiil, and once had before ZOS completely lost sight of group power creep.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but at the moment the design of sets and heal stacking mechanics in the game has made it so that ball groups essentially have god-mode active all the time as long as they wear the designated sets and click their AoE sticky HoTs once every 10 seconds

Yea it's gross, not that there isn't a learning curve or skill going into their comp and strat, but once you're there it wraps around to anti-skill gameplay like face-tanking ults and casually standing in red siege circles. One of the worst offenders is Snow Treaders, allowing them to trivially ignore things like Caltrops and Oil Catapults. Even some of the hardcore ball groupers I've chatted with would have no problem with Snow Treaders being outright deleted from PvP.

Yes, every playstyle and every group size should be allowed. And it is. And they all do well, if they are good enough. Solo artists can pull off insane X's. Small scalers can beat groups three times their size. Zergs can surf all day.

So what's the complaint exactly? That the biggest group with the best synergy shouldn't be allowed to do what everybody else can (overcome staggering odds?)

I don't understand where the leap of logic is coming from. One person kills 10 and that's skill. There's nothing "broken" about that. 4 people take down a Zerg and they're the best. Hats off to them, get outplayed noobs! Nothing "broken" about what. 12 players synergized perfectly with sets abilities and timing can't be killed by 30 and "OMG healing is too strong there's no balance!"

The same people that play the game on one level, min/max for it in every "broken" way they can, go out there and get glory every night... They encounter a big group doing the exact same thing they are but on a larger scale, can't scratch them, and cry foul. The whole conversation is ridiculous.

xylena_lazarow · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

So what's the complaint exactly?

Players find the heal stack ball meta unfun. They want a different meta, not to nerf groups, who will adapt regardless.

LordeGian · May 2023

Thecompton73 wrote: »

LordeGian wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

LordeGian wrote: »

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

Omg you missed it entirely. Playing in ball groups is easiest thing to do in pvp. Anyone who has played that style, and moved on to small scale/solo, will tell you it's much harder solo. Myself included
That was true even before sets like VD, PB, etc were introduced. Then they introduced a set to stack ungrounded players together to make it even easier. Lol. How can you say that with a straight face?

if it was easy everyone would play, it's certainly much easier to assemble your solo build and walk around Cyrodill, grouping with randoms and playing the way you want...

You clearly didn't understand what I meant by "difficult", to play in real ballgroups.

You need correct build, be part of a group, be committed to schedules, have specific addons configured, know how to follow orders, know how to think cooperatively, have focus (as I explained about seeing players trying to play in ballgroups but just couldn't keep it together or focused) faithfully follow the leader, trust their allies, among other things.

You're confusing exactly what I said, it's not a player being carried by a ballgroup, it's being part of it.

You couldn't be more wrong, it's too easy, and thus boring. Tried it and hated how utterly mindless you had to be: it's just stack on crown and spam the abilities you're assigned to buff the group and pop an ulti when the crown says.

you clearly weren't part of a ballgroup, you were just carried by it, understand the difference.

ShadowProc · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This exactly. This whole "cyrodiil is for groups only" narrative has completely ruined Cyrodiil in recent times.

OBJnoob wrote: »

People are saying Cyrodiil is meant for groups because group play

Gonna add to this, ball groups are not the only valid group play. Casual zergs, solo surfing, joining pugs, smallscaling... all valid group playstyles that deserve a place in Cyrodiil, and once had before ZOS completely lost sight of group power creep.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but at the moment the design of sets and heal stacking mechanics in the game has made it so that ball groups essentially have god-mode active all the time as long as they wear the designated sets and click their AoE sticky HoTs once every 10 seconds

Yea it's gross, not that there isn't a learning curve or skill going into their comp and strat, but once you're there it wraps around to anti-skill gameplay like face-tanking ults and casually standing in red siege circles. One of the worst offenders is Snow Treaders, allowing them to trivially ignore things like Caltrops and Oil Catapults. Even some of the hardcore ball groupers I've chatted with would have no problem with Snow Treaders being outright deleted from PvP.

Yes, every playstyle and every group size should be allowed. And it is. And they all do well, if they are good enough. Solo artists can pull off insane X's. Small scalers can beat groups three times their size. Zergs can surf all day.

So what's the complaint exactly? That the biggest group with the best synergy shouldn't be allowed to do what everybody else can (overcome staggering odds?)

I don't understand where the leap of logic is coming from. One person kills 10 and that's skill. There's nothing "broken" about that. 4 people take down a Zerg and they're the best. Hats off to them, get outplayed noobs! Nothing "broken" about what. 12 players synergized perfectly with sets abilities and timing can't be killed by 30 and "OMG healing is too strong there's no balance!"

The same people that play the game on one level, min/max for it in every "broken" way they can, go out there and get glory every night... They encounter a big group doing the exact same thing they are but on a larger scale, can't scratch them, and cry foul. The whole conversation is ridiculous.

It's the evolution that players go through in this game. Pug to ball group to solo/small scale. Most will never go back. Beyond question the less people in the group the harder it is.

There are a lot of players here that I would bet have way more experience in ball groups than a lot of you. Xylena us a launch player as well for example. Not all players reach enlightenment.

ShadowProc · May 2023

LordeGian wrote: »

Thecompton73 wrote: »

LordeGian wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

LordeGian wrote: »

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

Omg you missed it entirely. Playing in ball groups is easiest thing to do in pvp. Anyone who has played that style, and moved on to small scale/solo, will tell you it's much harder solo. Myself included
That was true even before sets like VD, PB, etc were introduced. Then they introduced a set to stack ungrounded players together to make it even easier. Lol. How can you say that with a straight face?

if it was easy everyone would play, it's certainly much easier to assemble your solo build and walk around Cyrodill, grouping with randoms and playing the way you want...

You clearly didn't understand what I meant by "difficult", to play in real ballgroups.

You need correct build, be part of a group, be committed to schedules, have specific addons configured, know how to follow orders, know how to think cooperatively, have focus (as I explained about seeing players trying to play in ballgroups but just couldn't keep it together or focused) faithfully follow the leader, trust their allies, among other things.

You're confusing exactly what I said, it's not a player being carried by a ballgroup, it's being part of it.

You couldn't be more wrong, it's too easy, and thus boring. Tried it and hated how utterly mindless you had to be: it's just stack on crown and spam the abilities you're assigned to buff the group and pop an ulti when the crown says.

you clearly weren't part of a ballgroup, you were just carried by it, understand the difference.

Your missing the point. Everyone in a ball group is being carried by the other players. That's the point. In a high level ball group everyone is carrying each other.

That is great. But the amount of sets and skills that have been added to carry groups is nuts. (VD, prox det, plague break, dark convergence, snow treaders, etc)

Post a video not wearing those and stacking 40k health and then you can say ball group play is challenging.

Funny looking back I remember what's his name on these forums everyday bashing impulse monkeys during that meta. What was his name? so funny. We complained about a skill. Little did we know what was in store for us. Lol

bachpain · May 2023

I am all for group play. I just want to have groups be groups and not one giant organism feeding off of itself. Make it like any other group where you have to have healers, dds, and tanks. Rather than everyone running a backbar restoration staff and echoing vigor stacking heals up to the nth degree. It wouldn't be too hard to alter battle spirit to change it either of Zos gave a care.

OBJnoob · May 2023

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

So what's the complaint exactly?

Players find the heal stack ball meta unfun. They want a different meta, not to nerf groups, who will adapt regardless.

It seems, to me, more like people want to nerf groups than to nerf healing. I just don't see the incredible amount of healing solo players can bestow upon themselves being brought up as often. Yes, people wish Coag healed for less-- IF we happen to be talking about how OP DKs are. And yes, people wish Polar Wind healed for less-- IF we happen to be talking about the health stacking meta.

But when we talk about ball-groups nobody wants vigor to heal for less, do they? No, they just want less instances of it. And we discuss how many would be fair and we say "oh, well, maybe 3 or 4 so PvErs won't complain." But what doesn't get said out loud is how coincidentally beneficial this would be for small-scalers.

12 perfectly coordinated people seem unkillable for the same reason some solo players seem unkillable. So yes, by all means, nerf healing. But do it by actually nerfing healing, not by nerfing teamwork.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This exactly. This whole "cyrodiil is for groups only" narrative has completely ruined Cyrodiil in recent times.

OBJnoob wrote: »

People are saying Cyrodiil is meant for groups because group play

Gonna add to this, ball groups are not the only valid group play. Casual zergs, solo surfing, joining pugs, smallscaling... all valid group playstyles that deserve a place in Cyrodiil, and once had before ZOS completely lost sight of group power creep.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but at the moment the design of sets and heal stacking mechanics in the game has made it so that ball groups essentially have god-mode active all the time as long as they wear the designated sets and click their AoE sticky HoTs once every 10 seconds

Yea it's gross, not that there isn't a learning curve or skill going into their comp and strat, but once you're there it wraps around to anti-skill gameplay like face-tanking ults and casually standing in red siege circles. One of the worst offenders is Snow Treaders, allowing them to trivially ignore things like Caltrops and Oil Catapults. Even some of the hardcore ball groupers I've chatted with would have no problem with Snow Treaders being outright deleted from PvP.

Yep, just had one ball group, I bombed them under a negate and with siegefire (oils, coldfire balista, etc) raining down on them, nope, healthbars didn't even budge because they already had all their HoTs ticking before the negate was cast on them, so even though it was a direct bomb (on the entire group) all under the negate and siegefire and no abilities could be cast by them, they just casually walked out of it like nothing had happened and continued on farming the pugs that were around. That is not even remotely close to being balanced and needs fixing.

No group should be able to survive under that kind of pressure combined with counter play combined with that amount of damage, all being applied at the same time. That kind of thing is supposed to counter ball groups, but nope, not this one, they just walked out and the health bars (all at 40k) didn't even budge because of all of the stacked HoTs that were passively healing for far more than any achievable damage could be inflicted even though they couldn't cast any heals at that time.

I think it's interesting that the 12man surviving is a problem but if for example there was no siege and was no negate and 1 person bombed 12 nobody here would have a problem with it.

1 person killing 12 all at once is a lot more unbalanced than 1 person not being able to kill 12.

12 people healing eachother is simply teamwork-- there's nothing unbalanced or exploitative about it. With the things that some solo individuals can do, why should a ballgroup be capable of any less?

The problem, honestly, is the game is too old now and even the vets who refuse to leave are tired of it as it was originally meant to be... And so they are abandoning things like objectives and campaign points, heading out solo only to kill and wishing for the game to change into some sandbox where they can run around having fun without being bothered by things that they don't appreciate. Like big groups. Or tanks. Or siege.

bachpain · May 2023

Anyone who understands basic multiplication understands the problem of the heal stacking. I cannot for the life of me fathom why the devs cannot understand why having such multiplication of hots being a good thing.

RoxyPhoenix · May 2023

this "tactic" spread over to smaller group sizes as well. It is so effective that a group of 5-6 ppl is now often called a ball group, or mini ball. The principal is the same, 1-2 proc/ulti DDs and the rest are tanky super healers.

WaywardArgonian · May 2023

ShadowProc wrote: »

Your missing the point. Everyone in a ball group is being carried by the other players. That's the point. In a high level ball group everyone is carrying each other.

That is great. But the amount of sets and skills that have been added to carry groups is nuts. (VD, prox det, plague break, dark convergence, snow treaders, etc)

Post a video not wearing those and stacking 40k health and then you can say ball group play is challenging.

Funny looking back I remember what's his name on these forums everyday bashing impulse monkeys during that meta. What was his name? so funny. We complained about a skill. Little did we know what was in store for us. Lol

I mainly play in no-CP, where none of those sets work, and I have around 31k health before Warden buff (just under 33k after) playing in groups of 8-9. So yeah, everyone supports each other, but there are definitely challenging ways to play ballgroups, even if there's also a lot of cheese out there.

Turtle_Bot · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

So what's the complaint exactly?

Players find the heal stack ball meta unfun. They want a different meta, not to nerf groups, who will adapt regardless.

It seems, to me, more like people want to nerf groups than to nerf healing. I just don't see the incredible amount of healing solo players can bestow upon themselves being brought up as often. Yes, people wish Coag healed for less-- IF we happen to be talking about how OP DKs are. And yes, people wish Polar Wind healed for less-- IF we happen to be talking about the health stacking meta.

But when we talk about ball-groups nobody wants vigor to heal for less, do they? No, they just want less instances of it. And we discuss how many would be fair and we say "oh, well, maybe 3 or 4 so PvErs won't complain." But what doesn't get said out loud is how coincidentally beneficial this would be for small-scalers.

12 perfectly coordinated people seem unkillable for the same reason some solo players seem unkillable. So yes, by all means, nerf healing. But do it by actually nerfing healing, not by nerfing teamwork.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This exactly. This whole "cyrodiil is for groups only" narrative has completely ruined Cyrodiil in recent times.

OBJnoob wrote: »

People are saying Cyrodiil is meant for groups because group play

Gonna add to this, ball groups are not the only valid group play. Casual zergs, solo surfing, joining pugs, smallscaling... all valid group playstyles that deserve a place in Cyrodiil, and once had before ZOS completely lost sight of group power creep.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but at the moment the design of sets and heal stacking mechanics in the game has made it so that ball groups essentially have god-mode active all the time as long as they wear the designated sets and click their AoE sticky HoTs once every 10 seconds

Yea it's gross, not that there isn't a learning curve or skill going into their comp and strat, but once you're there it wraps around to anti-skill gameplay like face-tanking ults and casually standing in red siege circles. One of the worst offenders is Snow Treaders, allowing them to trivially ignore things like Caltrops and Oil Catapults. Even some of the hardcore ball groupers I've chatted with would have no problem with Snow Treaders being outright deleted from PvP.

Yep, just had one ball group, I bombed them under a negate and with siegefire (oils, coldfire balista, etc) raining down on them, nope, healthbars didn't even budge because they already had all their HoTs ticking before the negate was cast on them, so even though it was a direct bomb (on the entire group) all under the negate and siegefire and no abilities could be cast by them, they just casually walked out of it like nothing had happened and continued on farming the pugs that were around. That is not even remotely close to being balanced and needs fixing.

No group should be able to survive under that kind of pressure combined with counter play combined with that amount of damage, all being applied at the same time. That kind of thing is supposed to counter ball groups, but nope, not this one, they just walked out and the health bars (all at 40k) didn't even budge because of all of the stacked HoTs that were passively healing for far more than any achievable damage could be inflicted even though they couldn't cast any heals at that time.

I think it's interesting that the 12man surviving is a problem but if for example there was no siege and was no negate and 1 person bombed 12 nobody here would have a problem with it.

1 person killing 12 all at once is a lot more unbalanced than 1 person not being able to kill 12.

12 people healing eachother is simply teamwork-- there's nothing unbalanced or exploitative about it. With the things that some solo individuals can do, why should a ballgroup be capable of any less?

The problem, honestly, is the game is too old now and even the vets who refuse to leave are tired of it as it was originally meant to be... And so they are abandoning things like objectives and campaign points, heading out solo only to kill and wishing for the game to change into some sandbox where they can run around having fun without being bothered by things that they don't appreciate. Like big groups. Or tanks. Or siege.

Except I never said that it was me alone as a single player that should be killing that ball group, it was a bomb on top of siege-fire AND negate with others around to help out and that group v group SHOULD BE ABLE TO KILL ball groups, especially when USING ABILITIES THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE COUNTERS!
I'm not talking about some non-existent hypothetical situation like you constantly are with your constant attempts to derail the fact that ball groups are completely OP currently and need adjusting, I am talking about actual in game play and scenarios that are supposed to counter ball groups but the ball groups are completely immune to those counters thanks to how absurd HoT stacking has gotten over the years combined with carry sets like snow treaders.

But hey, lets completely ignore inconvenient truths because it doesn't agree with out narrative that ball groups need to be left alone to be the only god-mode available in the game.....

xylena_lazarow · May 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

I am talking about actual in game play and scenarios that are supposed to counter ball groups but the ball groups are completely immune to those counters thanks to how absurd HoT stacking has gotten over the years combined with carry sets like snow treaders.

I think this might be the best description so far of why it's "unfun" to fight against the ball groups. You do everything right against their strat and their HP bars still don't move, they continue holding the objective hostage running in circles. The ball groups know damn well that faction players feel obligated to defend important objectives, regardless of whether it is fun to fight against them or not, and that's what sends them to the forums afterward.

LarsS · May 2023

As some have pointed out not only balls are hard to kill but also many solo and smallscaler groups. We have tank meta which rather boring. The easiest may be to reduce the healing in cyro even more than it is now.

OBJnoob · May 2023

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

So what's the complaint exactly?

Players find the heal stack ball meta unfun. They want a different meta, not to nerf groups, who will adapt regardless.

It seems, to me, more like people want to nerf groups than to nerf healing. I just don't see the incredible amount of healing solo players can bestow upon themselves being brought up as often. Yes, people wish Coag healed for less-- IF we happen to be talking about how OP DKs are. And yes, people wish Polar Wind healed for less-- IF we happen to be talking about the health stacking meta.

But when we talk about ball-groups nobody wants vigor to heal for less, do they? No, they just want less instances of it. And we discuss how many would be fair and we say "oh, well, maybe 3 or 4 so PvErs won't complain." But what doesn't get said out loud is how coincidentally beneficial this would be for small-scalers.

12 perfectly coordinated people seem unkillable for the same reason some solo players seem unkillable. So yes, by all means, nerf healing. But do it by actually nerfing healing, not by nerfing teamwork.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This exactly. This whole "cyrodiil is for groups only" narrative has completely ruined Cyrodiil in recent times.

OBJnoob wrote: »

People are saying Cyrodiil is meant for groups because group play

Gonna add to this, ball groups are not the only valid group play. Casual zergs, solo surfing, joining pugs, smallscaling... all valid group playstyles that deserve a place in Cyrodiil, and once had before ZOS completely lost sight of group power creep.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but at the moment the design of sets and heal stacking mechanics in the game has made it so that ball groups essentially have god-mode active all the time as long as they wear the designated sets and click their AoE sticky HoTs once every 10 seconds

Yea it's gross, not that there isn't a learning curve or skill going into their comp and strat, but once you're there it wraps around to anti-skill gameplay like face-tanking ults and casually standing in red siege circles. One of the worst offenders is Snow Treaders, allowing them to trivially ignore things like Caltrops and Oil Catapults. Even some of the hardcore ball groupers I've chatted with would have no problem with Snow Treaders being outright deleted from PvP.

Yep, just had one ball group, I bombed them under a negate and with siegefire (oils, coldfire balista, etc) raining down on them, nope, healthbars didn't even budge because they already had all their HoTs ticking before the negate was cast on them, so even though it was a direct bomb (on the entire group) all under the negate and siegefire and no abilities could be cast by them, they just casually walked out of it like nothing had happened and continued on farming the pugs that were around. That is not even remotely close to being balanced and needs fixing.

No group should be able to survive under that kind of pressure combined with counter play combined with that amount of damage, all being applied at the same time. That kind of thing is supposed to counter ball groups, but nope, not this one, they just walked out and the health bars (all at 40k) didn't even budge because of all of the stacked HoTs that were passively healing for far more than any achievable damage could be inflicted even though they couldn't cast any heals at that time.

I think it's interesting that the 12man surviving is a problem but if for example there was no siege and was no negate and 1 person bombed 12 nobody here would have a problem with it.

1 person killing 12 all at once is a lot more unbalanced than 1 person not being able to kill 12.

12 people healing eachother is simply teamwork-- there's nothing unbalanced or exploitative about it. With the things that some solo individuals can do, why should a ballgroup be capable of any less?

The problem, honestly, is the game is too old now and even the vets who refuse to leave are tired of it as it was originally meant to be... And so they are abandoning things like objectives and campaign points, heading out solo only to kill and wishing for the game to change into some sandbox where they can run around having fun without being bothered by things that they don't appreciate. Like big groups. Or tanks. Or siege.

Except I never said that it was me alone as a single player that should be killing that ball group, it was a bomb on top of siege-fire AND negate with others around to help out and that group v group SHOULD BE ABLE TO KILL ball groups, especially when USING ABILITIES THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE COUNTERS!
I'm not talking about some non-existent hypothetical situation like you constantly are with your constant attempts to derail the fact that ball groups are completely OP currently and need adjusting, I am talking about actual in game play and scenarios that are supposed to counter ball groups but the ball groups are completely immune to those counters thanks to how absurd HoT stacking has gotten over the years combined with carry sets like snow treaders.

But hey, lets completely ignore inconvenient truths because it doesn't agree with out narrative that ball groups need to be left alone to be the only god-mode available in the game.....

Sorry if you found my hypothetical to be derailing... I thought, and still think, that it's worth mentioning that bombers are capable of killing large groups. Even by themselves. And I took some liberties to change your scenario to one of my choosing but I wasn't trying to detract from what you said... Simply piggyback off of it and say something of my own.

My point being that there are mechanics for solo players to destroy large groups and it happens all the time. So it just seems to me like what we're complaining about isn't groups or cross healing it's just that SOME groups are annoyingly good and people begrudge the fact that nothing can be done about them.

And I just don't see a huge difference between 12 people all synched up fighting the world -v- one person wearing rallying maras and Markyn fighting 12. The only difference between "that 12" and "this 12" is that "this 12" knows what they're doing. Well "this 12" who knows what they're doing aren't going to die to a talented 5-man, and I think it's pretty lame to ask for game mechanics to change in a way that limits options and abilities for one playstyle but not others.

Let's just be honest and say that "we the small scalers" like to fight outnumbered because it's challenging and "we" think anybody who doesn't have the same idea of fun, challenge, and style as us is lame and doesn't matter. "We" see big groups as being pugs, whether they are or not, and coming across 12 people we can't touch is enraging. But when "we" stand toe to toe with 12 that's just because "we" are so awesome and if they don't like it they need to L2P.

12 people coordinating buff sets and healing eachother is the pinnacle of what this game is supposed to be. It's the pinnacle of PvE and also the pinnacle of PvP. It's an MMO for goodness sake. If you want to run around solo or with just a couple talented friends then you just have to accept that some people won't fall into your level of competition-- whether they be lower or, occasionally, higher.

Marcus684 · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

So what's the complaint exactly?

Players find the heal stack ball meta unfun. They want a different meta, not to nerf groups, who will adapt regardless.

It seems, to me, more like people want to nerf groups than to nerf healing. I just don't see the incredible amount of healing solo players can bestow upon themselves being brought up as often. Yes, people wish Coag healed for less-- IF we happen to be talking about how OP DKs are. And yes, people wish Polar Wind healed for less-- IF we happen to be talking about the health stacking meta.

But when we talk about ball-groups nobody wants vigor to heal for less, do they? No, they just want less instances of it. And we discuss how many would be fair and we say "oh, well, maybe 3 or 4 so PvErs won't complain." But what doesn't get said out loud is how coincidentally beneficial this would be for small-scalers.

12 perfectly coordinated people seem unkillable for the same reason some solo players seem unkillable. So yes, by all means, nerf healing. But do it by actually nerfing healing, not by nerfing teamwork.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

This exactly. This whole "cyrodiil is for groups only" narrative has completely ruined Cyrodiil in recent times.

OBJnoob wrote: »

People are saying Cyrodiil is meant for groups because group play

Gonna add to this, ball groups are not the only valid group play. Casual zergs, solo surfing, joining pugs, smallscaling... all valid group playstyles that deserve a place in Cyrodiil, and once had before ZOS completely lost sight of group power creep.

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

but at the moment the design of sets and heal stacking mechanics in the game has made it so that ball groups essentially have god-mode active all the time as long as they wear the designated sets and click their AoE sticky HoTs once every 10 seconds

Yea it's gross, not that there isn't a learning curve or skill going into their comp and strat, but once you're there it wraps around to anti-skill gameplay like face-tanking ults and casually standing in red siege circles. One of the worst offenders is Snow Treaders, allowing them to trivially ignore things like Caltrops and Oil Catapults. Even some of the hardcore ball groupers I've chatted with would have no problem with Snow Treaders being outright deleted from PvP.

Yep, just had one ball group, I bombed them under a negate and with siegefire (oils, coldfire balista, etc) raining down on them, nope, healthbars didn't even budge because they already had all their HoTs ticking before the negate was cast on them, so even though it was a direct bomb (on the entire group) all under the negate and siegefire and no abilities could be cast by them, they just casually walked out of it like nothing had happened and continued on farming the pugs that were around. That is not even remotely close to being balanced and needs fixing.

No group should be able to survive under that kind of pressure combined with counter play combined with that amount of damage, all being applied at the same time. That kind of thing is supposed to counter ball groups, but nope, not this one, they just walked out and the health bars (all at 40k) didn't even budge because of all of the stacked HoTs that were passively healing for far more than any achievable damage could be inflicted even though they couldn't cast any heals at that time.

I think it's interesting that the 12man surviving is a problem but if for example there was no siege and was no negate and 1 person bombed 12 nobody here would have a problem with it.

1 person killing 12 all at once is a lot more unbalanced than 1 person not being able to kill 12.

12 people healing eachother is simply teamwork-- there's nothing unbalanced or exploitative about it. With the things that some solo individuals can do, why should a ballgroup be capable of any less?

The problem, honestly, is the game is too old now and even the vets who refuse to leave are tired of it as it was originally meant to be... And so they are abandoning things like objectives and campaign points, heading out solo only to kill and wishing for the game to change into some sandbox where they can run around having fun without being bothered by things that they don't appreciate. Like big groups. Or tanks. Or siege.

Except I never said that it was me alone as a single player that should be killing that ball group, it was a bomb on top of siege-fire AND negate with others around to help out and that group v group SHOULD BE ABLE TO KILL ball groups, especially when USING ABILITIES THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO BE COUNTERS!
I'm not talking about some non-existent hypothetical situation like you constantly are with your constant attempts to derail the fact that ball groups are completely OP currently and need adjusting, I am talking about actual in game play and scenarios that are supposed to counter ball groups but the ball groups are completely immune to those counters thanks to how absurd HoT stacking has gotten over the years combined with carry sets like snow treaders.

But hey, lets completely ignore inconvenient truths because it doesn't agree with out narrative that ball groups need to be left alone to be the only god-mode available in the game.....

Sorry if you found my hypothetical to be derailing... I thought, and still think, that it's worth mentioning that bombers are capable of killing large groups. Even by themselves. And I took some liberties to change your scenario to one of my choosing but I wasn't trying to detract from what you said... Simply piggyback off of it and say something of my own.

My point being that there are mechanics for solo players to destroy large groups and it happens all the time. So it just seems to me like what we're complaining about isn't groups or cross healing it's just that SOME groups are annoyingly good and people begrudge the fact that nothing can be done about them.

And I just don't see a huge difference between 12 people all synched up fighting the world -v- one person wearing rallying maras and Markyn fighting 12. The only difference between "that 12" and "this 12" is that "this 12" knows what they're doing. Well "this 12" who knows what they're doing aren't going to die to a talented 5-man, and I think it's pretty lame to ask for game mechanics to change in a way that limits options and abilities for one playstyle but not others.

Let's just be honest and say that "we the small scalers" like to fight outnumbered because it's challenging and "we" think anybody who doesn't have the same idea of fun, challenge, and style as us is lame and doesn't matter. "We" see big groups as being pugs, whether they are or not, and coming across 12 people we can't touch is enraging. But when "we" stand toe to toe with 12 that's just because "we" are so awesome and if they don't like it they need to L2P.

12 people coordinating buff sets and healing eachother is the pinnacle of what this game is supposed to be. It's the pinnacle of PvE and also the pinnacle of PvP. It's an MMO for goodness sake. If you want to run around solo or with just a couple talented friends then you just have to accept that some people won't fall into your level of competition-- whether they be lower or, occasionally, higher.

Do you think there should be a limit to the odds that a ball group at the pinnacle of group performance should be able to survive against? What we currently have is the top performing groups being literally unkillable. I'm not being hyperbolic. I've seen probably 2 or 3 groups that have had almost the entire opposing faction trying to get them out of a keep and repeatedly failing for over an hour. In your view, is this ok?

Stridig · May 2023

I just hate that ball groups can keep half a faction stuck in combat for extended periods of time. It's funny, but it's not. It's not really their fault but they know it happens and it sucks.

xylena_lazarow · May 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

And I just don't see a huge difference between 12 people all synched up fighting the world -v- one person wearing rallying maras and Markyn fighting 12.

A solo can't hold an entire keep, scroll, or hammer hostage, nor can a solo tank an entire faction. On the vast majority of maps, solos are limited to holding resources, which can easily be ignored then back capped. Even smallscale groups holding outposts get ignored. But a ball group on a tri keep is not going to be ignored, no matter how many zone generals try.