Ball groups destroying everything fun about pvp

Quackery

For the love of God, can you PLEEEEEEEEEEEEASE ZOS, do something about this plague that is ruining the enjoyment of pvp on PC NA-server!? AD has 4-5 ball groups and EP 2 of their own running around all the time! IT'S UNPLAYABLE, especially with how bad the servers are with skills not going off. We're back to the state of pvp before the servers were "replaced"! If you want to know what degrades it this quickly: BALL GROUPS!! Completely and utterly unplayable! How haven't you been able to do something about these groups after all these years?!?

God, I'm waiting anxiously for an mmorpg that doesn't frustrate me to the point of wanting to destroy the controller! ZOS, you do NOT deserve our money!!

adirondack

AD has groups? I thought everyone was just solo.

Amerises

Here’s a fix… Don’t allow them to stack the same HoTs.

It’s been suggested for a long time, and their answer is, the never used and overly nerfed, Snake in the Stars. They keep putting out sets to “address” the issue, but the sets just get used by ball groups (i.e. Dark Convergence, VD, etc.) or get so nerfed they are useless for anyone.

Amottica

Cyrodiil was designed for group PvP. Two types of groups will prevail. Well organized groups with a good leader and well disciplined players will outplay everyone followed by large zergs due to their numbers then everyone else.

It’s why when I do Cyrodiil I run with my guild that does small group and we can take on much larger groups.

xMauiWaui

Sorry but that say all. Just finally do a Cap for Hots.

But we talk about Zos. Zos incluede Sets like PB against Purge. Dude sets against a mechanic. Oh lord...

Turtle_Bot

Easy fix for ball group issues (both in creating lag and being unfun/unfair to play against).

Remove (or heavily limit) Heal over Time stacking of the same HoT ability.

No group should be able to stand inside mass siege fire or ulti dumps and completely ignore them indefinitely because they have so many copies of the same 2-3 HoTs all stacking up and ticking simultaneously that it out-heals everything and no amount of incoming damage can come close to breaking through it.

No amount of new sets will ever fix this issue, it needs addressing directly via adjusting the mechanics, as any new set they design will simply be incorporated into the ball groups themselves and used against everyone else.

They can easily tie this limitation to battle spirit so it doesn't affect PvE at all and will only balance this in PvP where it is currently a huge balance (and performance) issue.

As it stands, you can have an organized ball group of 8-12 players and they are unkillable unless they are essentially going up against a partially organized and semi-competent server stack with some level of dedicated counters and that is not healthy for the game, no matter what ball group players will try and tell you.
ZOS specifically stated they want bigger numbers to always win, well by that logic, 30+ should always win against the 8-12, but as it stands, it requires 50+ the majority of the time to kill those 8-12 and even then it often takes multiple attempts by the 50+ unless there's also a critical mass of players who know how to go up against ball groups (negates, catapaults, CC, timed burst etc).

And players wonder why the tank meta is so disproportionately bad right now, ball groups forced this tank meta on us since everyone builds to survive their dumps and until they are toned down/balanced, the tank meta will continue to hang around because it's the only way to reliably have a chance against ball groups.

loosej

PC-EU here, was hoping for a fun day of PvP but I've given up. Third disconnect in a bit over an hour, every time at a siege with a ballgroup. Flawless performance everywhere, even at big fights, but as soon as one of those "skilled" groups show up performance goes down the toilet. There's been better days, where it was even possible to have two of them around, and the experience was amazing, but today apparently isn't one of them... I really, really love playing this game when it works. I even enjoy our side trying to take down one of those groups, when skills work. But the fact that this has apparently forever been a problem for performance, and still isn't considered a bottleneck that needs to be dealt with, is just beyond me. I've worked in multiple fields of the tech industry, and seen some major screw-ups, but come on zos. I know you guys grow tired of "knee-jerk" reactions from angry pvp players, but let's face it, you're getting them because you've earned them. At least we have mayhem coming up, hopefully then there will be enough server resources allocated so that we can enjoy the product we're paying for.

xFocused

They need to make Snake in the Stars to what it was before. There's more than enough sets that are pretty much designed for ball group play (VD, DC, PB, Hrothgars, Etc...), there absolutely should be some sort of counter. Snake in the Stars was supposed to be this "zerg killer" but it got hammered into the ground so now it's honestly useless unless you're trying to 1vx. I run in a ball group and absolutely agree there should be some sort of counter to give organized groups more of a threat

Reverb

EP has ball groups?

Truthfully, zenimax destroyed pvp, in many decisions, over the course of years.

If the population cap was still reasonable there would be plenty of fights and people and the impact of ball groups would be diminished. But the current problems aren’t the fault of the ball groups, who are just doing their best to have whatever fun they can. The same is true of
Bombers, and pvdoor zergs, and nightcappers, and whatever else is being complained about these days.

Turtle_Bot

Reverb wrote: »

EP has ball groups?

Truthfully, zenimax destroyed pvp, in many decisions, over the course of years.

If the population cap was still reasonable there would be plenty of fights and people and the impact of ball groups would be diminished. But the current problems aren’t the fault of the ball groups, who are just doing their best to have whatever fun they can. The same is true of
Bombers, and pvdoor zergs, and nightcappers, and whatever else is being complained about these days.

Not sure what platform you play on, but EP is nothing but ball groups, faction stacks, night capping groups, pvdoor zergs and large zergs on PC EU. They constantly have GH at a minimum of 2 bars (more often 3 bars or locked) 24/7 and have made GH so unplayable that the other alliances have both left for BR. Even on BR, EP also still has 2 bars or more all the time even while GH is still locked while the other alliances can barely fill only BR, so yes, EP definitely has ball groups (at least on PC EU).

1 resource starts to flip off red in GH, instantly there's 20+ EP there to take it back, it's gotten stupid and the map is basically unplayable now, even during prime time.

bachpain

Ball groups run complimentary skills, sets, add-ons to restrict who can take and use synergies so they are most effective etc. This level of coordination with the level of cross healing by anyone in the vicinity is just mind bogglingly powerful. I cannot believe that we are still seeing the ability of more than 2 of the same HOTs and DOTs stacking let alone 10+ on the same player. It has to be possible to limit this with battle spirit active so as not to impact PVE in the least.

The only ones that have anything to say positive for ball groups are those IN the ball groups melting everyone's faces around them while their 25 to 50 HOTs tick away keeping them alive. I am not against coordinated groups at all, but the stacking mechanisms in this game are just too powerfully stacked period.

CGPsaint

adirondack wrote: »

AD has groups? I thought everyone was just solo.

Quoted for truth. I post up LFG when I get into Cyro and have not gotten in invite in months. I've given up and once I finish the new AD achievement I'll be switching alliances. No sense in being loyal to an alliance that won't work together.

Have siege, will travel!

Marcus684

CGPsaint wrote: »

adirondack wrote: »

AD has groups? I thought everyone was just solo.

Quoted for truth. I post up LFG when I get into Cyro and have not gotten in invite in months. I've given up and once I finish the new AD achievement I'll be switching alliances. No sense in being loyal to an alliance that won't work together.

Have siege, will travel!

AD has groups, but they never invite randoms and never communicate with zone. They'd rather farm AP at KC or Rayles while EP and DC gate AD.

CameraBeardThePirate

Ball groups will always exist - it has nothing to do with game balance and everything to do with coordination. True ball groups have all 12 players in complimentary builds - every single player has a specific function that they perform, and each player covers the other's weaknesses.

There's a couple things that could make Ball Groups feel less oppressive (like cutting back on Echoing Vigor/Radiating/Polar stacking), but at the end of the day these groups will always roll through zergs like nothing.

Theignson

xMauiWaui wrote: »

Sorry but that say all. Just finally do a Cap for Hots.

But we talk about Zos. Zos include Sets like PB against Purge. Dude sets against a mechanic. Oh lord...

This picture says it all. I count 11 vigors and 2 radiating regens all ticking at once. (Maybe there is another HOT Im not sure). Lets say each heals at 1k per tick. That's 13,000 HPS obviously crits make it higher). Each member of these immortal balls runs at 42k health.

A coldfire hits for ~10k. So a single cold fire is healed away.
Plus, these groups spam siege shield (and maybe some barriers). Often the coldfire only hits for 5k.

So, you would need Twelve separate coldfires to hit all the group members at exactly the same second. If they are spread over a few seconds, the HPS immediately brings them up to health.

So, if the coldfires do not hit at exactly the same second but over 3 seconds (as if the ballgroup with its snowtreaders and spamming charging maneuver was ever localized--not) you would need approximately 20 coldfire ballista shots hitting all the ball group members over the 3 second span.

In practice, at least in GH PCNA, these toxic immortal ball groups wait until someone else opens a keep (since if they actually siege they can be hit as described above), then they run into the keep, go up to the third floor, and run laps around the third floor for 20, 30, 60 minutes until everyone is bored to death. On the third floor siege cannot be concentrated on these groups.
Very occasionally they get successfully bombed.

It is the stupidest game play I can imagine, although who knows, maybe the people in those groups feel immortal and uber rather than feel like decapitated chickens running around mindlessly.

Marcus684

Theignson wrote: »

xMauiWaui wrote: »

Sorry but that say all. Just finally do a Cap for Hots.

But we talk about Zos. Zos include Sets like PB against Purge. Dude sets against a mechanic. Oh lord...

This picture says it all. I count 11 vigors and 2 radiating regens all ticking at once. (Maybe there is another HOT Im not sure). Lets say each heals at 1k per tick. That's 13,000 HPS obviously crits make it higher). Each member of these immortal balls runs at 42k health.

A coldfire hits for ~10k. So a single cold fire is healed away.
Plus, these groups spam siege shield (and maybe some barriers). Often the coldfire only hits for 5k.

So, you would need Twelve separate coldfires to hit all the group members at exactly the same second. If they are spread over a few seconds, the HPS immediately brings them up to health.

So, if the coldfires do not hit at exactly the same second but over 3 seconds (as if the ballgroup with its snowtreaders and spamming charging maneuver was ever localized--not) you would need approximately 20 coldfire ballista shots hitting all the ball group members over the 3 second span.

In practice, at least in GH PCNA, these toxic immortal ball groups wait until someone else opens a keep (since if they actually siege they can be hit as described above), then they run into the keep, go up to the third floor, and run laps around the third floor for 20, 30, 60 minutes until everyone is bored to death. On the third floor siege cannot be concentrated on these groups.
Very occasionally they get successfully bombed.

It is the stupidest game play I can imagine, although who knows, maybe the people in those groups feel immortal and uber rather than feel like decapitated chickens running around mindlessly.

Agree with everything except the bold part. These pvdoor artisans have learned how to blow through both doors of an unwatched keep before anyone can respond and already be upstairs ready to run laps by the time enough opposing players arrive to challenge them. The only reason they don't actually take the keep is that it takes longer to flip the flags than to ram open both doors, and they'd be vulnerable to being wiped if they sat still on the flags long enough to flip them. If they try it on a guarded keep they usually have to retreat from the FD under pressure from the defenders, but I've also seen some of these groups tank and heal through every possible counter to them.

As others have said, I'm sure its great fun for the 12 players in the ball group and I bet the AP gains are nice, but it's completely imbalanced and frustrating for everyone else that has to deal with this gameplay.

Jabbs_Giggity

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

Reverb wrote: »

EP has ball groups?

Truthfully, zenimax destroyed pvp, in many decisions, over the course of years.

If the population cap was still reasonable there would be plenty of fights and people and the impact of ball groups would be diminished. But the current problems aren’t the fault of the ball groups, who are just doing their best to have whatever fun they can. The same is true of
Bombers, and pvdoor zergs, and nightcappers, and whatever else is being complained about these days.

Not sure what platform you play on, but EP is nothing but ball groups, faction stacks, night capping groups, pvdoor zergs and large zergs on PC EU. They constantly have GH at a minimum of 2 bars (more often 3 bars or locked) 24/7 and have made GH so unplayable that the other alliances have both left for BR. Even on BR, EP also still has 2 bars or more all the time even while GH is still locked while the other alliances can barely fill only BR, so yes, EP definitely has ball groups (at least on PC EU).

1 resource starts to flip off red in GH, instantly there's 20+ EP there to take it back, it's gotten stupid and the map is basically unplayable now, even during prime time.

This is exactly how Xbox NA is GH, but insert DC for EP...AD is just always a hot mess. Lots of players, zero coordination. EP is mostly solo players also that all think they are He-Man.

Loooree

organised groups > not organised groups

You already have the tools to kill a ball. Use it. Everyone claiming it's super easy bEcAuSe 12x vIgOrS - try it. Get your 12 vigors and try to kill at least 24 people while being sieged by 10 coldfires/oils. Ehh but that would require so much effort man I just log in to Cyrodiil and want to do a little pew pew nuking everyone.

Yeah, changing how HoTs work would help zergs for a week maybe, it would definitely force ballgroups to waste gold on new setups so it will change nothing in the long run. Now group up and git gud. You are playing a competetive game mode after all.

CGPsaint

Marcus684 wrote: »

AD has groups, but they never invite randoms and never communicate with zone. They'd rather farm AP at KC or Rayles while EP and DC gate AD.

That certainly explains why AD is always getting absolutely plowed under and there never seems to be any concerted effort to push red or blue.

Theignson wrote: »

In practice, at least in GH PCNA, these toxic immortal ball groups wait until someone else opens a keep (since if they actually siege they can be hit as described above), then they run into the keep, go up to the third floor, and run laps around the third floor for 20, 30, 60 minutes until everyone is bored to death. On the third floor siege cannot be concentrated on these groups.
Very occasionally they get successfully bombed.

It is the stupidest game play I can imagine, although who knows, maybe the people in those groups feel immortal and uber rather than feel like decapitated chickens running around mindlessly.

There's an easy fix. Once an attack has been defeated and the keep is no longer flagged, any enemies remaining in the keep should be given a timer to GTFO, or else the keep guards put them to the sword. There is nothing even remotely fun about trying to get 50 people to all gather at X keep to kill a troll ball group that is running the aforementioned HoT stacking shenanigans whilst tower humping.

Amerises

Theignson wrote: »

xMauiWaui wrote: »

Sorry but that say all. Just finally do a Cap for Hots.

But we talk about Zos. Zos include Sets like PB against Purge. Dude sets against a mechanic. Oh lord...

This picture says it all. I count 11 vigors and 2 radiating regens all ticking at once. (Maybe there is another HOT Im not sure). Lets say each heals at 1k per tick. That's 13,000 HPS obviously crits make it higher). Each member of these immortal balls runs at 42k health.

A coldfire hits for ~10k. So a single cold fire is healed away.
Plus, these groups spam siege shield (and maybe some barriers). Often the coldfire only hits for 5k.

So, you would need Twelve separate coldfires to hit all the group members at exactly the same second. If they are spread over a few seconds, the HPS immediately brings them up to health.

So, if the coldfires do not hit at exactly the same second but over 3 seconds (as if the ballgroup with its snowtreaders and spamming charging maneuver was ever localized--not) you would need approximately 20 coldfire ballista shots hitting all the ball group members over the 3 second span.

In practice, at least in GH PCNA, these toxic immortal ball groups wait until someone else opens a keep (since if they actually siege they can be hit as described above), then they run into the keep, go up to the third floor, and run laps around the third floor for 20, 30, 60 minutes until everyone is bored to death. On the third floor siege cannot be concentrated on these groups.
Very occasionally they get successfully bombed.

It is the stupidest game play I can imagine, although who knows, maybe the people in those groups feel immortal and uber rather than feel like decapitated chickens running around mindlessly.

This. It’s not that organized groups shouldn’t be able to take out a Zerg. They should. Any other PvP game this is true. It’s also been true in those games that organized groups would wipe after enough pressure. DAoC, you’d hit and run, a full group could take out an entire 50 man Zerg, but if they stayed on a bridge for more than 5 minutes, they’d wipe. The ring around the rosie for an hour (because you can’t leave them alone or they’ll recapture the keep) is ridiculous. To have near invincible groups be able to stay alive in an area that people NEED to be needs to change. I don’t care if ball groups camp a resource, or a bridge, or outside a keep, BUT in an area that the other alliance is required to be is beyond imbecilic.

OBJnoob

Gotta say, and not for the first time, there's nothing wrong broken or exploitative about HoT stacking.

I'm in a 1v1. My opponent keeps vigor up almost constantly, occasionally uses a burst heal, and probably has 1 other HoT with high uptime and perhaps some weird passive healing going on as well. And I'm not describing a tank or a healer. I'm describing a normal brawler. Am I going to out damage their healing and kill them? If I'm better than them YES.

So if I'm fighting a coordinated 12-man group shouldn't I expect them to have 12x the healing capability? And if I'm in a 12-man group shouldn't I have 12x the damage? And so isn't it possible to kill them? YES.

The problem people have is the effect of 24 5-piece bonuses buffing group members with spell damage, armor, HP, healing done, berserk, Regen, ulti Regen, and lord knows what else. People under-estimate this advantage, refuse to do it themselves, and fail to acknowledge this as the source of their woes. And this is not wrong broken or exploitative either.

It is simply building a group the same way most people build a singular character-- by including as many stats buffs utility and abilities as they can. Some people are better at it than others. And some people are so used to winning, full of themselves, and look upon groups as just being a bunch of players that need training wheels-- that they refuse to accept that they are outside of their own element and being outplayed.

I just don't see how anyone can, in good conscience, argue otherwise.

Blaming HoT stacking for being one element of a multi-faceted tank meta may have truth to it, but is not being properly addressed by THESE concerns.

And saying HoT stacking creates lag, intentionally or not, is irrelevant to game balance and only relevant to performance. It is also odd to assume HoTs create more or less lag than DoTs, RaTs, pets, dodge rolls, AoEs, proc sets, or anything else. If the 12 people weren't pressing the Vigor button then they'd be pressing another button that would have an attached animation and perhaps a lingering effect as well.

12 people offensive ulti dumping 12 people defensive HoT stacking WILL kill them. The damage 12 people, of equal ball group skill, can inflict in 1 GCD is astronomical. If the other 12 people survive it is not due to HoT stacking it is due to timely blocking, good reaction time, and basically just skillful gameplay. To include barriers potions earthgore blah blah blah.

If two equally skilled ball-groups simply stalemate against eachother it is not because ball-groups are immortal but rather indicative of a larger game problem in general. The tank meta. The same problem that plagues people in high-skilled battlegrounds and duels.

Limiting HoT stacks might fix the problem but it isn't THE problem. And it would be very unfairly advantaging small groups against big groups. Which might be what people want, but is not fair. What is fair is for people to either get on their level or let them have their well deserved W.

What ball groups do with their power... Farming, trolling, bagging, griefing-- is another conversation.

MISTFORMBZZZ

Remove hots and we will stack burstheals. Already started this when snake in the stars was invented and now it works even better then before.

Vetixio

Marcus684 wrote: »

CGPsaint wrote: »

adirondack wrote: »

AD has groups? I thought everyone was just solo.

Quoted for truth. I post up LFG when I get into Cyro and have not gotten in invite in months. I've given up and once I finish the new AD achievement I'll be switching alliances. No sense in being loyal to an alliance that won't work together.

Have siege, will travel!

AD has groups, but they never invite randoms and never communicate with zone. They'd rather farm AP at KC or Rayles while EP and DC gate AD.

AD just tend to faction stack and only really have a few coordinated ballgroups at least that's how I see it lol.

Turtle_Bot

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Remove hots and we will stack burstheals. Already started this when snake in the stars was invented and now it works even better then before.

The thing is, burst heals have much more exploitable weaknesses compared to stacking HoTs.

- They often cost significantly more to use
- They are much more reactive than HoTs which are almost entirely passive, which allows for the damage to actually have an effect and at the very least, provide real pressure.
- They cannot be used inside negates where as HoTs persist on you when running through a negate
- Often only single target (or 1-3 targets max) unlike most common HoTs that hit up to 6 allies at the same time
- It's a once off heal that needs recasting which takes up valuable GCDs that would be better used dropping ulti dumps to turn and burn.

I've seen the difference between groups stacking burst heals and stacking HoTs.

Burst heal groups are either significantly easier to kill (especially to bombers and partially coordinated siege fire) since their defensive healing is very reactive instead of passive, or the group just doesn't do enough damage, since they are spending a lot more time and resources keeping the group alive with heals.

HoT stacking groups don't have either of those issues since they stack up their hots and essentially have a 5-10 second window of passively applying burst heals where their entire group can focus on offense abilities and countering potential counter play (negate for enemy negate, barrier etc) since they have all those GCDs free to do so.

The reason burst heals seem as effective at the moment is the HoTs are still being stacked which is hiding those weaknesses of burst heal stacking.

Amottica

Cyrodill is desigend and intended for group PvP. As such there are two major factors that play into how well a group will do. Size of the group and/or how skilled and organized the group is. This is AvA/WvW 101. Prefer to not run against groups then a BG is the place to go.

And0ssus

Hots (Vigor) aren't as overpowerd in Terms of healing power as they seem at First - probably People should starting to compare resolving vigor to echoing vigor in raw healing power and then maybe judge again.

More impactfull as one person mentioned, is the Long uptime.
It frees up GCDs, so you can use other skills (Defensive and offensive).

But that got added to simplify rotations/etc so the skill gap reduces.

The Heal stacking is fine as it is for the Most Part - especially as long sieges ignore Physical/Magical Resistances + Block and get powered up by certain Sets.
Btw a Reason why Groups aren't Sometimes able to get the Keep and why they shift to the courtyard and fight there (Sieges).

Galeriano

ZoS should simply come up with the ideas to split people accross the Cyrodill. Right now in any given time majority of population is playing in 1-2 places because there is no reason not to.

CameraBeardThePirate

Galeriano wrote: »

ZoS should simply come up with the ideas to split people accross the Cyrodill. Right now in any given time majority of population is playing in 1-2 places because there is no reason not to.

It's almost like instead of balancing the mechanic that was intended to stop this, they flat out removed it.

RIP Dynamic Ult Gen. Gone but not forgotten.

ShadowProc

CGPsaint wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

AD has groups, but they never invite randoms and never communicate with zone. They'd rather farm AP at KC or Rayles while EP and DC gate AD.

That certainly explains why AD is always getting absolutely plowed under and there never seems to be any concerted effort to push red or blue.

Theignson wrote: »

In practice, at least in GH PCNA, these toxic immortal ball groups wait until someone else opens a keep (since if they actually siege they can be hit as described above), then they run into the keep, go up to the third floor, and run laps around the third floor for 20, 30, 60 minutes until everyone is bored to death. On the third floor siege cannot be concentrated on these groups.
Very occasionally they get successfully bombed.

It is the stupidest game play I can imagine, although who knows, maybe the people in those groups feel immortal and uber rather than feel like decapitated chickens running around mindlessly.

There's an easy fix. Once an attack has been defeated and the keep is no longer flagged, any enemies remaining in the keep should be given a timer to GTFO, or else the keep guards put them to the sword. There is nothing even remotely fun about trying to get 50 people to all gather at X keep to kill a troll ball group that is running the aforementioned HoT stacking shenanigans whilst tower humping.

Great thought. Unfortunately they would just put a RAM up and flag keep. Or hit front door randomly to prevent repair

Dem_kitkats1

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Ball groups will always exist - it has nothing to do with game balance and everything to do with coordination. True ball groups have all 12 players in complimentary builds - every single player has a specific function that they perform, and each player covers the other's weaknesses.

There's a couple things that could make Ball Groups feel less oppressive (like cutting back on Echoing Vigor/Radiating/Polar stacking), but at the end of the day these groups will always roll through zergs like nothing.

I wouldn't classify having no counters as being all that balanced. Coordination can give small groups an edge over zergs, sure, but it shouldn't be easy for a 12 man to steamroll a group of 30 multiple times. Hots are a large problem when there isn't enough damage in game to counter them, and other infinite sources of mitigation. On top of that the ability to stack even remotely enough damage has been severely restricted by the introduction of PB and VD.

I'm not saying group coordination doesn't have a place in Cyro, or it shouldn't be strong, but the resources they have with little to no counters is laughable at this point.

CameraBeardThePirate

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Ball groups will always exist - it has nothing to do with game balance and everything to do with coordination. True ball groups have all 12 players in complimentary builds - every single player has a specific function that they perform, and each player covers the other's weaknesses.

There's a couple things that could make Ball Groups feel less oppressive (like cutting back on Echoing Vigor/Radiating/Polar stacking), but at the end of the day these groups will always roll through zergs like nothing.

I wouldn't classify having no counters as being all that balanced. Coordination can give small groups an edge over zergs, sure, but it shouldn't be easy for a 12 man to steamroll a group of 30 multiple times. Hots are a large problem when there isn't enough damage in game to counter them, and other infinite sources of mitigation. On top of that the ability to stack even remotely enough damage has been severely restricted by the introduction of PB and VD.

I'm not saying group coordination doesn't have a place in Cyro, or it shouldn't be strong, but the resources they have with little to no counters is laughable at this point.

Ball Groups have counters though; coordination and knowing their tactics. Knowing how to recognize when a ball group is about to tear through the zerg is already enough to survive against them.

Don't get me wrong, I think heal stacking should be nerfed, but at the end of the day, you aren't going to beat a coordinated group unless you coordinate a group yourselves. That's by design.