Ball groups destroying everything fun about pvp

Veinblood1965

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Ball groups will always exist - it has nothing to do with game balance and everything to do with coordination. True ball groups have all 12 players in complimentary builds - every single player has a specific function that they perform, and each player covers the other's weaknesses.

There's a couple things that could make Ball Groups feel less oppressive (like cutting back on Echoing Vigor/Radiating/Polar stacking), but at the end of the day these groups will always roll through zergs like nothing.

I wouldn't classify having no counters as being all that balanced. Coordination can give small groups an edge over zergs, sure, but it shouldn't be easy for a 12 man to steamroll a group of 30 multiple times. Hots are a large problem when there isn't enough damage in game to counter them, and other infinite sources of mitigation. On top of that the ability to stack even remotely enough damage has been severely restricted by the introduction of PB and VD.

I'm not saying group coordination doesn't have a place in Cyro, or it shouldn't be strong, but the resources they have with little to no counters is laughable at this point.

Ball Groups have counters though; coordination and knowing their tactics. Knowing how to recognize when a ball group is about to tear through the zerg is already enough to survive against them.

Don't get me wrong, I think heal stacking should be nerfed, but at the end of the day, you aren't going to beat a coordinated group unless you coordinate a group yourselves. That's by design.

Agreed. Coordinated group who runs together for weeks or months versus ragtag solo's or PUGroup the coordinated will always win. It's fair, they worked for it. The sets they use help also of course. Nothing stopping anyone from creating organized anti ball groups with coordinated armor sets who lay down Suppression or Absorption Fields endlessly around them and kick their butts. Of course that's more boring than farming people.

It does suck, I usually just move on or wait for my group to get there.

LordeGian

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

Marcus684

LordeGian wrote: »

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

Most people here aren't saying that players shouldn't be able to group up and fine-tune their builds for group play, and plenty of us understand that ball group play isn't easy or lacks skill. Everyone should get the benefits of skillful builds and play, whether its solo, small-man or large group. The issue for me and many others that I see commenting are that the pendulum has swung too far towards group play vs. disorganized. Yes, highly-tuned groups should absolutely win vs. equal numbers or greater every time unless they mess up. Currently though I've seen a few ball groups that can survive against and repeatedly wipe many times their number, to the point that their only counter is an opposing ball of similar quality, and to me this is just too far out of balance. FIghting them is so frustrating that most of the skilled soloers that I regularly see just refuse to engage them, leaving the B, C and D teams to get farmed by them.

The most highly skilled solo player shouldn't be able to survive against unlimited odds, no matter how much effort they put into getting to the top, and neither should the most highly skilled ball group. Everyone needs to lose sometimes.

Edit: word choice

Loooree

Marcus684 wrote: »

LordeGian wrote: »

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

Most people here aren't saying that players shouldn't be able to group up and fine-tune their builds for group play, and plenty of us understand that ball group play isn't easy or lacks skill. Everyone should get the benefits of skillful builds and play, whether its solo, small-man or large group. The issue for me and many others that I see commenting are that the pendulum has swung too far towards group play vs. disorganized. Yes, highly-tuned groups should absolutely win vs. equal numbers or greater every time unless they mess up. Currently though I've seen a few ball groups that can survive against and repeatedly wipe many times their number, to the point that their only counter is an opposing ball of similar quality, and to me this is just too far out of balance. FIghting them is so frustrating that most of the skilled soloers that I regularly see just refuse to engage them, leaving the B, C and D teams to get farmed by them.

The most highly skilled solo player shouldn't be able to survive against unlimited odds, no matter how much effort they put into getting to the top, and neither should the most highly skilled ball group. Everyone needs to lose sometimes.

Edit: word choice

So you are saying ballgroup should lose sometimes just because enemies have bigger numbers? Do I get it right? If I do - how many enemy players can ballgroup take so it's fair in your opinion? 20? 30? And when there is 31people on enemy side ball should automatically wipe?

If enemy refuses to group up, doesn't have the setup, knowledge, is pew pewing randomy - I say ballgroup should be able to take down even 300 of such players if ball is good enough(zos increase max server population pls)

Make. Your. Own. Group. Because I can guarantee you things won't change even if you remove hots from the game, add x amount of anti-ballgroup sets, add x, nerf y. Things will always be the same.

CGPsaint

ShadowProc wrote: »

Great thought. Unfortunately they would just put a RAM up and flag keep. Or hit front door randomly to prevent repair

At least if they had to stop to place a ram or siege to keep the keep flagged, it would meant that they would have to stop tower humping for a minute...

Amerises

Loooree wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

LordeGian wrote: »

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

Most people here aren't saying that players shouldn't be able to group up and fine-tune their builds for group play, and plenty of us understand that ball group play isn't easy or lacks skill. Everyone should get the benefits of skillful builds and play, whether its solo, small-man or large group. The issue for me and many others that I see commenting are that the pendulum has swung too far towards group play vs. disorganized. Yes, highly-tuned groups should absolutely win vs. equal numbers or greater every time unless they mess up. Currently though I've seen a few ball groups that can survive against and repeatedly wipe many times their number, to the point that their only counter is an opposing ball of similar quality, and to me this is just too far out of balance. FIghting them is so frustrating that most of the skilled soloers that I regularly see just refuse to engage them, leaving the B, C and D teams to get farmed by them.

The most highly skilled solo player shouldn't be able to survive against unlimited odds, no matter how much effort they put into getting to the top, and neither should the most highly skilled ball group. Everyone needs to lose sometimes.

Edit: word choice

So you are saying ballgroup should lose sometimes just because enemies have bigger numbers? Do I get it right? If I do - how many enemy players can ballgroup take so it's fair in your opinion? 20? 30? And when there is 31people on enemy side ball should automatically wipe?

If enemy refuses to group up, doesn't have the setup, knowledge, is pew pewing randomy - I say ballgroup should be able to take down even 300 of such players if ball is good enough(zos increase max server population pls)

Make. Your. Own. Group. Because I can guarantee you things won't change even if you remove hots from the game, add x amount of anti-ballgroup sets, add x, nerf y. Things will always be the same.

How would you feel about when a keep turns, the enemy factions get set outside and doors close?

I agree ball groups should kill 100 disorganized players. But a ball group running around on an unlit keep, and if left alone will capture, is ridiculous.

Don’t get me wrong, when I’m geared for solo or small man, I now don’t even engage the ball groups dancing upstairs on a keep, but the problem is, someone has to or my ports will be cut off and now I have to horse around for 20 minutes to find a worth while fight.

Open field, on a bridge, turning a resource, or capturing a keep, a ball group should win vs a Zerg.

Tommy_The_Gun

Ball groups imho are a perfect representation of what can happen if a developers will asks themselves too little "what if questions". What if players will use it that way ? What if players will use this skill and that skill at the same time ? What if a group of players will do this & that at the same time ? Ball groups imho are a perfect symbol of what it means to "abuse the game mechanics" - to the point in which some might wonder if this is not leaning towards "exploiting" game mechanics.

CGPsaint

Amerises wrote: »

How would you feel about when a keep turns, the enemy factions get set outside and doors close?

I like this idea. Your faction lost the fight. Get out. [snip]

[edited for profanity bypass]

Amottica

LordeGian wrote: »

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

At the core, that is the real issue. A well-organized group of players that have a good leader and they play as one unit will tend to do much better than a pug group or random groups of players. The group I have run with since shortly after starting this game has cleaned the clock of much larger groups because we play well and we stick together. We have come across challenging groups but they are groups that are also playing well together.

Being on comms is also a great advantage. We require our guildmates to be on comms when they run with us in Cyrodiil. No exception.

WaywardArgonian

Ballgroups are just the meta for group play, and as with any meta, getting rid of it will just lead to a new meta, and the same category of players will prevail to more or less the same extent.

You can take certain measures to make ballgroup gameplay less effective, but those same measures will often also affect unorganized groups. Like, say you turn crosshealing off, ballgroups would have a tougher time, but at the same time, I've seen how many ballgroup pushes fail because there's 3 Templars in the zerg who all have their Practiced Incantation up. Or that idea that was mentioned that if a keep flips, the enemy faction is transported outside and the doors close. What would happen is that a ballgroup can hijack a siege like they often do already, make the faction they stole it from transport outside, and then the farming would continue at outer main gate.

heng14rwb17_ESO

Say NO to ball

Tommy_The_Gun

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Ballgroups are just the meta for group play, and as with any meta, getting rid of it will just lead to a new meta, and the same category of players will prevail to more or less the same extent.

You can take certain measures to make ballgroup gameplay less effective, but those same measures will often also affect unorganized groups. Like, say you turn crosshealing off, ballgroups would have a tougher time, but at the same time, I've seen how many ballgroup pushes fail because there's 3 Templars in the zerg who all have their Practiced Incantation up. Or that idea that was mentioned that if a keep flips, the enemy faction is transported outside and the doors close. What would happen is that a ballgroup can hijack a siege like they often do already, make the faction they stole it from transport outside, and then the farming would continue at outer main gate.

To some degree - yes - it may affect non-grouped players. But for the most part there are already some solutions existing in the game that are affecting only groups. Some sets (like Pale Order or Rallying Cry) have this mechanics in which those sets scale with the group size and become certain % weaker the larger the group is. If something similar would be implement to Battle Spirit itself and it would make abilities / passives certain % weaker the larger the group is - then it could be a step in a right direction. Cyro or IC does not have the luxury of having some kind of MM. Battle Spirit is what we have instead.

The other idea that is mentioned quite often is to have a global cap on how many instances of same positive effects can be stacked on one player. There is this screenshot floating around of a ball group player having like 10 vigors and Radiating Regeneration all ticking at the same time. That is obviously something that is kinda game breaking. Very often even other ball group can not kill each other because of that. If there was a cap of let's say "3 Vigors" then for the most part solo players and small scale groups would not feel the difference, while ball groups would actually need to be more careful not to die to lets say sieges. Right now they simply can tank that dmg.

The other thought I have is, well... whenever some playstyle is overperforming or a stat is too strong - it gets nerfed. Stacking crit damage have lead to a crit dmg / healing cap that we now have. It was added because you could stack insane values and one-shot everything. Same thing happened to many playstyles & builds - with Snipe builds being prime example. Those were too effective so Snipe skill (aside from range) is kinda useless now.

I really don't understand why ZOS protects ball groups so hard. This is just a playstyle. Why it has a special treatment ? The only reason that comes to mind is that maybe they are the "target audience". That Cyro & IC is designed with them in mind in a 1st place, and all those solo players are basically like not so important. I mean even when it comes to PvE - a solo player can enter a group dungeon alone, right ? There is nothing preventing you from doing so and you are not forced to be in group. Maybe they have similar philosophy when it comes to Cyro or IC ? You can enter solo but no one is telling you what are you signing up for.

LarsS

One big problem in Cyrodiil is that many go there expecting that it will be simmilar to pve. Just like a trial and in many dungeons one need to learn the mechanics.

Ballgroups like bombers or smal scalers optimize their advantge and many players runs in the same traps again and again. Two examples, a ball need to focus their damage in a limited area to burn the zerg, any narrow passage works. One classic move is to run out of a gate and then turn on the incomming zerg and burn them it works almost always. The solution is simple don't run after a ball in narow confinements. Second if a ball is running on top of a keep or walls let them. One only need to act if the ball try to sieg, but then they become static and can be put under massive sieg.

It seems like many go to Cyrodiil in the belief that it is som form of overland content, its not it a form of end game like trials.

Marcus684

Loooree wrote: »

Marcus684 wrote: »

LordeGian wrote: »

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

Most people here aren't saying that players shouldn't be able to group up and fine-tune their builds for group play, and plenty of us understand that ball group play isn't easy or lacks skill. Everyone should get the benefits of skillful builds and play, whether its solo, small-man or large group. The issue for me and many others that I see commenting are that the pendulum has swung too far towards group play vs. disorganized. Yes, highly-tuned groups should absolutely win vs. equal numbers or greater every time unless they mess up. Currently though I've seen a few ball groups that can survive against and repeatedly wipe many times their number, to the point that their only counter is an opposing ball of similar quality, and to me this is just too far out of balance. FIghting them is so frustrating that most of the skilled soloers that I regularly see just refuse to engage them, leaving the B, C and D teams to get farmed by them.

The most highly skilled solo player shouldn't be able to survive against unlimited odds, no matter how much effort they put into getting to the top, and neither should the most highly skilled ball group. Everyone needs to lose sometimes.

Edit: word choice

So you are saying ballgroup should lose sometimes just because enemies have bigger numbers? Do I get it right? If I do - how many enemy players can ballgroup take so it's fair in your opinion? 20? 30? And when there is 31people on enemy side ball should automatically wipe?

If enemy refuses to group up, doesn't have the setup, knowledge, is pew pewing randomy - I say ballgroup should be able to take down even 300 of such players if ball is good enough(zos increase max server population pls)

Make. Your. Own. Group. Because I can guarantee you things won't change even if you remove hots from the game, add x amount of anti-ballgroup sets, add x, nerf y. Things will always be the same.

Forming pug groups does nothing against the best ball groups, but instead just makes it more convenient for them to wipe the opposing players faster. I've seen the best ball groups repeatedly wipe 3/4 of the opposing faction, including some pretty decent guild groups that just aren't quite up to the same level.

And your repeating of the disingenuous "Removing hots won't change anything" is false. Every good group knows that HoT stacking is the the foundation of good survivability. When you stack burst heals, shields and high mobility on top of that is when you really approach unkillability. If ZOS nerfed HoT stacking then yes, the good groups would adapt, but they would take a big hit to that foundation and it would force them to sacrifice in other areas to maintain that survivability, namely sustain and damage output. They'd still roll over hordes of casuals and glass cannons, but they'd actually be at risk of dying if enough skilled players ganged up on them, which is rarely the case now for the best groups.

Edit: spelling

xylena_lazarow

I vaguely remember the old combat lead Wrobel talking about "gladiators versus farmers" and the need for the game to be fun for both. These threads will go nowhere until ZOS remembers this.

Amottica

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Ballgroups are just the meta for group play, and as with any meta, getting rid of it will just lead to a new meta, and the same category of players will prevail to more or less the same extent.

You can take certain measures to make ballgroup gameplay less effective, but those same measures will often also affect unorganized groups. Like, say you turn crosshealing off, ballgroups would have a tougher time, but at the same time, I've seen how many ballgroup pushes fail because there's 3 Templars in the zerg who all have their Practiced Incantation up. Or that idea that was mentioned that if a keep flips, the enemy faction is transported outside and the doors close. What would happen is that a ballgroup can hijack a siege like they often do already, make the faction they stole it from transport outside, and then the farming would continue at outer main gate.

And well organized groups with good leadership will always be the meta because they figure out how to adapt to changes.

As such they will always be stronger than groups twice and three times larger than them because of how well organize they are and how well they are led.

What we like best is when we come upon a similarly skilled group as the fights test how strong our group really is.

So change healing and we will still have these threads about the same groups.

Marcus684

Amottica wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Ballgroups are just the meta for group play, and as with any meta, getting rid of it will just lead to a new meta, and the same category of players will prevail to more or less the same extent.

You can take certain measures to make ballgroup gameplay less effective, but those same measures will often also affect unorganized groups. Like, say you turn crosshealing off, ballgroups would have a tougher time, but at the same time, I've seen how many ballgroup pushes fail because there's 3 Templars in the zerg who all have their Practiced Incantation up. Or that idea that was mentioned that if a keep flips, the enemy faction is transported outside and the doors close. What would happen is that a ballgroup can hijack a siege like they often do already, make the faction they stole it from transport outside, and then the farming would continue at outer main gate.

And well organized groups with good leadership will always be the meta because they figure out how to adapt to changes.

As such they will always be stronger than groups twice and three times larger than them because of how well organize they are and how well they are led.

What we like best is when we come upon a similarly skilled group as the fights test how strong our group really is.

So change healing and we will still have these threads about the same groups.

No argument from me here. Ball groups are the epitome of cooperative large group play in PvP. Unfortunately, what your group likes best seems to be in the minority as most of the ball groups I see prefer to PvDoor a back keep and run laps farming solos until they get bored of it and jump out. This is what most of us would like to see less of, I believe.

xylena_lazarow

Marcus684 wrote: »

Ball groups are the epitome of cooperative large group play in PvP... run laps farming solos until they get bored of it and jump out. This is what most of us would like to see less of, I believe.

Agree about the running in circles just to stomp casuals, that's what leaves a bad taste. It's like running up the score in a Little League baseball game. But the epitome of large scale to me isn't just a 12-person moba, it would be for the ball groups, pugs, solos, smallscalers, etc. to all be coordinating to win for their faction together, which we sadly rarely see.

Amottica

Marcus684 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Ballgroups are just the meta for group play, and as with any meta, getting rid of it will just lead to a new meta, and the same category of players will prevail to more or less the same extent.

You can take certain measures to make ballgroup gameplay less effective, but those same measures will often also affect unorganized groups. Like, say you turn crosshealing off, ballgroups would have a tougher time, but at the same time, I've seen how many ballgroup pushes fail because there's 3 Templars in the zerg who all have their Practiced Incantation up. Or that idea that was mentioned that if a keep flips, the enemy faction is transported outside and the doors close. What would happen is that a ballgroup can hijack a siege like they often do already, make the faction they stole it from transport outside, and then the farming would continue at outer main gate.

And well organized groups with good leadership will always be the meta because they figure out how to adapt to changes.

As such they will always be stronger than groups twice and three times larger than them because of how well organize they are and how well they are led.

What we like best is when we come upon a similarly skilled group as the fights test how strong our group really is.

So change healing and we will still have these threads about the same groups.

No argument from me here. Ball groups are the epitome of cooperative large group play in PvP. Unfortunately, what your group likes best seems to be in the minority as most of the ball groups I see prefer to PvDoor a back keep and run laps farming solos until they get bored of it and jump out. This is what most of us would like to see less of, I believe.

Marcus684 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Ballgroups are just the meta for group play, and as with any meta, getting rid of it will just lead to a new meta, and the same category of players will prevail to more or less the same extent.

You can take certain measures to make ballgroup gameplay less effective, but those same measures will often also affect unorganized groups. Like, say you turn crosshealing off, ballgroups would have a tougher time, but at the same time, I've seen how many ballgroup pushes fail because there's 3 Templars in the zerg who all have their Practiced Incantation up. Or that idea that was mentioned that if a keep flips, the enemy faction is transported outside and the doors close. What would happen is that a ballgroup can hijack a siege like they often do already, make the faction they stole it from transport outside, and then the farming would continue at outer main gate.

And well organized groups with good leadership will always be the meta because they figure out how to adapt to changes.

As such they will always be stronger than groups twice and three times larger than them because of how well organize they are and how well they are led.

What we like best is when we come upon a similarly skilled group as the fights test how strong our group really is.

So change healing and we will still have these threads about the same groups.

No argument from me here. Ball groups are the epitome of cooperative large group play in PvP. Unfortunately, what your group likes best seems to be in the minority as most of the ball groups I see prefer to PvDoor a back keep and run laps farming solos until they get bored of it and jump out. This is what most of us would like to see less of, I believe.

As long as players feed the machine like flies to a flame this will continue.

One thing that Zenimax can do to cease some behavior is to place a boss in each keep. After a keep is flipped that boss is immune to all damage for a specified period of time and that boss needs to be killed in order to flip a keep.

With this model in place, no one has any reason to go do a keep that was just flipped. Of course, there could be unintended consequences.

Alchimiste1

I honestly don't even care if its fair or not. We all know that when there are two or more ball groups around a keep the performance plumets to hell. Ball group members pride themselves with being adaptive. Well, congrats. Stop the same stacking of hots, and you can just reorganize to run more damage; maybe people might have to slot their own self heals for once but if the group is truly talented, they should have the same success if they adapt. I just want the game to be able to function well.

Loooree

Amerises wrote: »

I agree ball groups should kill 100 disorganized players. But a ball group running around on an unlit keep, and if left alone will capture, is ridiculous.

Don’t get me wrong, when I’m geared for solo or small man, I now don’t even engage the ball groups dancing upstairs on a keep, but the problem is, someone has to or my ports will be cut off and now I have to horse around for 20 minutes to find a worth while fight.

Open field, on a bridge, turning a resource, or capturing a keep, a ball group should win vs a Zerg.

So.. you want them magically kicked out of the keep because you need the keep and it's boring for you to fight them? You know ballgroup HAS TO get inside keeps in order to get any pvp action? Nobody wants to fight a ballgroup when you can zerg randoms. Why does it seem ridiculous for you? They got in fair and square. Don't know about other platforms/server but on PC EU keeps are scouted most of the time so getting in while being sieged is a pure pain and now I'm supposed to get kicked outside because.. I didn't flip the keep xD

Marcus684 wrote: »

Forming pug groups does nothing against the best ball groups, but instead just makes it more convenient for them to wipe the opposing players faster. I've seen the best ball groups repeatedly wipe 3/4 of the opposing faction, including some pretty decent guild groups that just aren't quite up to the same level.

And your repeating of the disingenuous "Removing hots won't change anything" is false. Every good group knows that HoT stacking is the the foundation of good survivability. When you stack burst heals, shields and high mobility on top of that is when you really approach unkillability. If ZOS nerfed HoT stacking then yes, the good groups would adapt, but they would take a big hit to that foundation and it would force them to sacrifice in other areas to maintain that survivability, namely sustain and damage output. They'd still roll over hordes of casuals and glass cannons, but they'd actually be at risk of dying if enough skilled players ganged up on them, which is rarely the case now for the best groups.

Edit: spelling

I told you to make your own group. I didn't tell you to start writing "LFM" on zone chat so I'm not sure why are you bringing pug groups right now. If "LFM" is the only thing you are willing to do then you deserve to be farmed. Put some effort to it if you want to kill organised groups.

Hots stacking as a foundation of a good survivability. I'm not sure if I could call it that way. It's just the current most optimal solution to survivability in pvp. If you take it away you will only hurt people who are unable to adapt. Bad groups, smaller groups - maybe they could be stopped by this. Good ballgroups - no. Once you remove hots stacking, then people on forum will start complaining that ballgroups have even more hp, armor, with proxy hitting not for 10k but 9k. But they will still be running around keeps.

I tell you, nothing can be done about it. And it's great. Adapting to changes when ZOS tries to nerf you to the ground is even better than PVP itself. xD

Turtle_Bot

Ball groups should absolutely have an advantage over unorganized zergs of similar to larger size, up to a point.

However, when ball groups are so immortal to the point that it takes literal faction stacks multiple goes to wipe them, and ball groups simply don't bother fighting each other, then there is a huge balance issue that needs to be addressed with this playstyle.

Leaving ball groups in their current state and saying its completely fine is the same as leaving Mara's balm, oakensoul, savage werewolf, dark convergence, plaguebreak, hrothgars chill, etc. all at their full power and saying that they were fine too. It's not fine, it is unbalanced and needs addressing and the way to address it and provide some counter play is to limit the amount of times the same positive effect can stack on players in PvP zones (and no this is not cross healing, what I'm referring to is heals over time being stacked infinitely).

Loooree wrote: »

Amerises wrote: »

I agree ball groups should kill 100 disorganized players. But a ball group running around on an unlit keep, and if left alone will capture, is ridiculous.

Don’t get me wrong, when I’m geared for solo or small man, I now don’t even engage the ball groups dancing upstairs on a keep, but the problem is, someone has to or my ports will be cut off and now I have to horse around for 20 minutes to find a worth while fight.

Open field, on a bridge, turning a resource, or capturing a keep, a ball group should win vs a Zerg.

So.. you want them magically kicked out of the keep because you need the keep and it's boring for you to fight them? You know ballgroup HAS TO get inside keeps in order to get any pvp action? Nobody wants to fight a ballgroup when you can zerg randoms. Why does it seem ridiculous for you? They got in fair and square. Don't know about other platforms/server but on PC EU keeps are scouted most of the time so getting in while being sieged is a pure pain and now I'm supposed to get kicked outside because.. I didn't flip the keep xD

Marcus684 wrote: »

Forming pug groups does nothing against the best ball groups, but instead just makes it more convenient for them to wipe the opposing players faster. I've seen the best ball groups repeatedly wipe 3/4 of the opposing faction, including some pretty decent guild groups that just aren't quite up to the same level.

And your repeating of the disingenuous "Removing hots won't change anything" is false. Every good group knows that HoT stacking is the the foundation of good survivability. When you stack burst heals, shields and high mobility on top of that is when you really approach unkillability. If ZOS nerfed HoT stacking then yes, the good groups would adapt, but they would take a big hit to that foundation and it would force them to sacrifice in other areas to maintain that survivability, namely sustain and damage output. They'd still roll over hordes of casuals and glass cannons, but they'd actually be at risk of dying if enough skilled players ganged up on them, which is rarely the case now for the best groups.

Edit: spelling

I told you to make your own group. I didn't tell you to start writing "LFM" on zone chat so I'm not sure why are you bringing pug groups right now. If "LFM" is the only thing you are willing to do then you deserve to be farmed. Put some effort to it if you want to kill organised groups.

Hots stacking as a foundation of a good survivability. I'm not sure if I could call it that way. It's just the current most optimal solution to survivability in pvp. If you take it away you will only hurt people who are unable to adapt. Bad groups, smaller groups - maybe they could be stopped by this. Good ballgroups - no. Once you remove hots stacking, then people on forum will start complaining that ballgroups have even more hp, armor, with proxy hitting not for 10k but 9k. But they will still be running around keeps.

I tell you, nothing can be done about it. And it's great. Adapting to changes when ZOS tries to nerf you to the ground is even better than PVP itself. xD

Sure, the good groups will adapt, but, like I said before, taking away HoT stacking also removes a lot of the currently free GCDs that are available to ball groups who no longer need to focus those GCD on healing but can instead have many more group members focusing those GCD on damage, utility and counter play to their counters.

By removing/limiting HoT stacking this forces ball groups to either tank up and deal significantly less damage (meaning they will only really threaten unorganized zergs like they're supposed to with that level of survivability) or they build significantly more for damage at which point they become easier to pick off or straight up wipe. Either way it forces ball groups to actually have some individual skill on-top of their already superior organization and coordination to pull of wipes against much larger groups and brings back some actual counter play against them, the same way solos/small scale has had counter play forced on that style for a long time now.

The gladiator playstyle (solo/small scale) has been forced to choose between surviving many and only threatening a few or threatening many and taking extreme skill and luck to also survive many. Why should ball groups be exempt from this balance decision making process? What makes ball groups so special that they get to have god-mode while everyone else is required to run the balancing gauntlet?

DK is the closest thing a solo/small scale player can get to ball group level of god-mode and it still takes significantly more individual skill to pull of anything close to what ball groups can do, even on the god-mode class that is DK. DK is also getting a huge amount of complaints currently too and rightfully so.

To put HoT stacking into perspective for those who don't understand, it's the equivalent of the old intensive mender that would heal necros for roughly 8-10k per heal every 2 seconds, except that the HoT stacking does it every second and is for the entire group, not single target, and intensive mender got nerfed into the ground because it was that powerful that it was allowing for a full damage bombcro to have the survivability of a full tank build and that is what HoT stacking is enabling for ball groups currently.

LarsS

ZOS do provide a more balanced format for Cyrodiil pvp. An important reason for the strenght of the best balls are optimized builds of which sets and CP points are an important part.

In non-CP, non-proc campaigns the builds are more limited thus balls can't achive the same advantage over other players as in CP campaigns.

Unfortunately, most people prefer to stay on the CP campaigns and complain about the ball groups and to suggest various forms of changes to tone down ball groups, which mostly only helps the balls.

ShadowProc

LordeGian wrote: »

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

Omg you missed it entirely. Playing in ball groups is easiest thing to do in pvp. Anyone who has played that style, and moved on to small scale/solo, will tell you it's much harder solo. Myself included
That was true even before sets like VD, PB, etc were introduced. Then they introduced a set to stack ungrounded players together to make it even easier. Lol. How can you say that with a straight face?

Dem_kitkats1

LarsS wrote: »

The solution is simple don't run after a ball in narow confinements. Second if a ball is running on top of a keep or walls let them.

Those aren't counters though, and allows for them to control the map. Let them run a muck they'll take scrolls and keeps in order to force confrontation. Ignore them, they will bring the fight to you in one way or another.

Loooree wrote: »

If enemy refuses to group up, doesn't have the setup, knowledge, is pew pewing randomy - I say ballgroup should be able to take down even 300 of such players if ball is good enough(zos increase max server population pls)

Make. Your. Own. Group. Because I can guarantee you things won't change even if you remove hots from the game

I've played in groups. It's unbalanced as hell. You have access to instant mitigation, speed, healing, stacking in large radius', burst, & buffs at your fingertips with few sacrifices to be made. Hots overcompensate for less skilled players, players not following, and bad calls. They also provide relief for healers not on their game or under pressure. And again, there isn't enough damage in game to counter.
There's no incentive to fight other groups because it takes too long to fight them, or it'll stalemate. That's unbalanced PvP.

I disagree, numbers should have some meaning. Coordination should be a strength, but no playstyle should be immortal. It's absolutely laughable at this point.

LordeGian

ShadowProc wrote: »

LordeGian wrote: »

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

Omg you missed it entirely. Playing in ball groups is easiest thing to do in pvp. Anyone who has played that style, and moved on to small scale/solo, will tell you it's much harder solo. Myself included
That was true even before sets like VD, PB, etc were introduced. Then they introduced a set to stack ungrounded players together to make it even easier. Lol. How can you say that with a straight face?

if it was easy everyone would play, it's certainly much easier to assemble your solo build and walk around Cyrodill, grouping with randoms and playing the way you want...

You clearly didn't understand what I meant by "difficult", to play in real ballgroups.

You need correct build, be part of a group, be committed to schedules, have specific addons configured, know how to follow orders, know how to think cooperatively, have focus (as I explained about seeing players trying to play in ballgroups but just couldn't keep it together or focused) faithfully follow the leader, trust their allies, among other things.

You're confusing exactly what I said, it's not a player being carried by a ballgroup, it's being part of it.

Amerises

@Loooree

It’s not that I find it boring, it’s that I can’t do anything about it. I do engage ball groups when they are sieging, and when they are defending, and when they are even on a resource or bridge given an opportunity. However, while on third floor of a keep, there’s is absolutely nothing I can do, and even if I try and engage in any way, I’m dead.

ShadowProc

LordeGian wrote: »

ShadowProc wrote: »

LordeGian wrote: »

As a ballgroups player, I'll leave my comment here.

The healing overtime within the ballgroup makes it look very strong, but don't be fooled, we don't just have vigor/radianting running, we have dedicated healers ready to boost our health when needed, we have support sets that greatly reduce the damage we receive, such as transmutation, gossamer, rallying, sanctuary, spc among others...

I can say with certainty that bad players inside a ballgroup are a delay, don't think that just because you managed to kill a guy outside the ballgroup that this guy is bad, you just killed him because he has a build that only serves to play inside ballgroups, outside of a ballgroup the compilation is garbage, however, each player needs to have the highly focused compilation for that style of play, which only works for that style of play.

Another detail is that it is not an easy task to play in a ballgroup, you can even be bad and become resistant in a ballgroup, but you are only being carried by those who are really fit. An example in which we already had players who tried and failed to play this style of game, they simply don't have the focus to follow orders and stay together and have an adaptive mind, that is, they don't have the real spirit of playing cooperatively.

In conclusion, I believe that the reward for playing this style of game has to be something very good, taking into account everything that is needed to have a decent ballgroup.

Omg you missed it entirely. Playing in ball groups is easiest thing to do in pvp. Anyone who has played that style, and moved on to small scale/solo, will tell you it's much harder solo. Myself included
That was true even before sets like VD, PB, etc were introduced. Then they introduced a set to stack ungrounded players together to make it even easier. Lol. How can you say that with a straight face?

if it was easy everyone would play, it's certainly much easier to assemble your solo build and walk around Cyrodill, grouping with randoms and playing the way you want...

You clearly didn't understand what I meant by "difficult", to play in real ballgroups.

You need correct build, be part of a group, be committed to schedules, have specific addons configured, know how to follow orders, know how to think cooperatively, have focus (as I explained about seeing players trying to play in ballgroups but just couldn't keep it together or focused) faithfully follow the leader, trust their allies, among other things.

You're confusing exactly what I said, it's not a player being carried by a ballgroup, it's being part of it.

I played in some great ball groups from launch. For first 6 years or so. I know exactly how to play in one. And trust me, there are like 2 these days that could hang with ours back then.

I am no novice. And my point was that every player I know that played in one will never go back. It is way more challenging and fun small or solo.

Sets are carrying ball groups now.

TybaltKaine

Would you walk into a veteran hardmode trial without assembling a cohesive group that plays off of each other's strengths? No. Why would you walk into Cyrodiil that way?

Cyrodiil is designed for group play. You can enter solo, but you won't be able to take a keep or do much of anything else that way.

Solo PVP is in Imperial City. Yes, you occasionally get groups there, but the area is so much smaller and the NPC's so much more threatening that you can kite them into other encounters and mitigate their advantage, see how quick a group dissolves when a boss shows up and a gate opens.

You either adapt to the content you are playing or get left behind. It's that simple.

AuraNebula

TybaltKaine wrote: »

Would you walk into a veteran hardmode trial without assembling a cohesive group that plays off of each other's strengths? No. Why would you walk into Cyrodiil that way?

Cyrodiil is designed for group play. You can enter solo, but you won't be able to take a keep or do much of anything else that way.

Solo PVP is in Imperial City. Yes, you occasionally get groups there, but the area is so much smaller and the NPC's so much more threatening that you can kite them into other encounters and mitigate their advantage, see how quick a group dissolves when a boss shows up and a gate opens.

You either adapt to the content you are playing or get left behind. It's that simple.

I'm going to start off by saying I have nothing against ball groups. They're great and are needed in PvP. They help make things exciting.

However Cyrodiil is not specifically for groups only. You can 1vx, 2vx, 3vx, 1v1, etc. It is pretty much designed for everyone and is not specifically for groups only.

I'm just tired of hearing this group only narrative. Solo play is just as valid as group play. Lots of solos are taking resources, making call outs, setting down camps, and helping to siege.