Sharp-As-Night's questline handles its dark subject matter extremely poorly

Wolf_Eye · May 2023

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s just a game. You can’t make good story if it’s

Except, if it's written in a poor way, then it's NOT a good story.

And I would argue that misrepresenting SA by writing it poorly is, in a way, it's own type of censorship. If you're going to show it in a way that waves away it's impact, or puts too much focus on the abuser instead of the victim, then you're misrepresenting the truth. And might even risk implying that the abuser is more important, censoring the voice of the victim.

~

I disagree that this is what happened in this quest. The end result is muting the presentation of the perpetrators behavior, when it’s their behavior that should be on trial and not the victims. I agree with some of the changes fixing maybe the worst of his dialogue though.

As far as how to handle Sharp, I personally didn’t think his characterization was bad. I certainly don’t like removing any of his dialogue or text.

I completed my honors thesis interviewing male survivors of sexual assault. At the time it was a topic nearly completely missing in the academic journals. A theme specific to male survivors especially early on in their realization is often a burying of feelings and deep sense of shame. It’s unlikely Sharp would want to have lots of dialogue about this experience with the player character he just met. That he gets to kill his abuser is already some level of fantasy empowerment for the character but that alone will not fully heal him.

Many of those I interviewed never talked about this to anyone. At the time on my campus resources and counselors for sexual assault were for female students only. I know for many victims male and female they also may hide this has happened at all for years, for various reasons.

But the quest is still mostly fixated on that Telvanni fellow and NOT Sharp. That's my point though. The fact that they muted his horribleness is just another layer of "you see? He's not so bad. Let's focus on him", which is still drowning out Sharp's point of view.

I know you said a male victim wouldn't have much to say, likely, and that is fine. But I don't agree that we should have had every single one of his quests be about "oh let's go kill an abuser, Telvanni what's-his-name, and oh hey Sharp is along for the ride as a sidekick". It just feels nasty.

Telvanni-face should have been quickly taken care of in the first quest, with all of his horribleness laid out (but give the player a warning for it) and we should have moved on to doing stuff that Sharp likes for subsequent quests. I hope that makes more sense.

I can appreciate what you are saying, but I prefer the quest structure as is. It's a grave topic and not one I'd like to have seen settled in 15 minutes of game play.

I would LOVE for Sharp to get more quests in the future where we do explore him starting to enjoy life more freely. The "one and done" treatment of Companions where they never get new content is something I dislike as someone who loves companions and want to see more development of our relationships with them.

That's fair. I appreciate and respect you and your perspective, as well as your research, and I can't really argue with that. I can only really speak for myself.

As you pointed out, we only really get three quests with companions....and then nothing else. With such a short format, I'm not sure it's enough for a lot of in-depth looks at our companions. I know I was left wanting for more Mirri content after finishing her whole questline; I really wanted to meet the rest of her family. It's a shame...

~

AScarlato · May 2023

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s just a game. You can’t make good story if it’s

Except, if it's written in a poor way, then it's NOT a good story.

And I would argue that misrepresenting SA by writing it poorly is, in a way, it's own type of censorship. If you're going to show it in a way that waves away it's impact, or puts too much focus on the abuser instead of the victim, then you're misrepresenting the truth. And might even risk implying that the abuser is more important, censoring the voice of the victim.

~

I disagree that this is what happened in this quest. The end result is muting the presentation of the perpetrators behavior, when it’s their behavior that should be on trial and not the victims. I agree with some of the changes fixing maybe the worst of his dialogue though.

As far as how to handle Sharp, I personally didn’t think his characterization was bad. I certainly don’t like removing any of his dialogue or text.

I completed my honors thesis interviewing male survivors of sexual assault. At the time it was a topic nearly completely missing in the academic journals. A theme specific to male survivors especially early on in their realization is often a burying of feelings and deep sense of shame. It’s unlikely Sharp would want to have lots of dialogue about this experience with the player character he just met. That he gets to kill his abuser is already some level of fantasy empowerment for the character but that alone will not fully heal him.

Many of those I interviewed never talked about this to anyone. At the time on my campus resources and counselors for sexual assault were for female students only. I know for many victims male and female they also may hide this has happened at all for years, for various reasons.

But the quest is still mostly fixated on that Telvanni fellow and NOT Sharp. That's my point though. The fact that they muted his horribleness is just another layer of "you see? He's not so bad. Let's focus on him", which is still drowning out Sharp's point of view.

I know you said a male victim wouldn't have much to say, likely, and that is fine. But I don't agree that we should have had every single one of his quests be about "oh let's go kill an abuser, Telvanni what's-his-name, and oh hey Sharp is along for the ride as a sidekick". It just feels nasty.

Telvanni-face should have been quickly taken care of in the first quest, with all of his horribleness laid out (but give the player a warning for it) and we should have moved on to doing stuff that Sharp likes for subsequent quests. I hope that makes more sense.

I can appreciate what you are saying, but I prefer the quest structure as is. It's a grave topic and not one I'd like to have seen settled in 15 minutes of game play.

I would LOVE for Sharp to get more quests in the future where we do explore him starting to enjoy life more freely. The "one and done" treatment of Companions where they never get new content is something I dislike as someone who loves companions and want to see more development of our relationships with them.

That's fair. I appreciate and respect you and your perspective, as well as your research, and I can't really argue with that. I can only really speak for myself.

As you pointed out, we only really get three quests with companions....and then nothing else. With such a short format, I'm not sure it's enough for a lot of in-depth looks at our companions. I know I was left wanting for more Mirri content after finishing her whole questline; I really wanted to meet the rest of her family. It's a shame...

~

I completely appreciate your point of view also. We all have our own experiences and desires for how we engage with our entertainment. I think a lot of this does come down to how our companions only get development for one year and then they kind of fall into the background. I think all the companions need a "season 2" or a minimum of one or two follow up quests each year, as well as new commentary on the new zones and quests we are doing.

I do feel bad for Bastian / Mirri - who I felt didn't even have much to say in their own expansion. I saw improvements with Isobel (didn't play with Ember yet), but even then there is so much more that could be written about our ongoing relationships with our companions as we travel with them to new places.

Wolf_Eye · May 2023

AScarlato wrote: »

From Fay's post:

[*] Reynilla no longer talks about Sondivel wanting to change the barrier between will and desire.

- Dislike this change. I don't feel Sondivel needed to be made less villanous and I don't feel that was the complaint. EDIT: Some of the worst ICK may need to have been rewritten though.

[*] Sharp no longer has dialogue when he says he wish he hadn't read the rest of the letter where Sondivel goes all "poetic" over Sharp physical features. That first letter itself seems to be unchanged.

- Dislike this change too and agree Sharp isn't the one who needs to be losing dialogue or reactions to what happened to him.

[*] Sharp's letter no longer talks about him not wanting to be touched.

- Dislike this change. This is a common occurrence after abuse and many survivors share their boundaries around being touched.

[*] You still play as Sharp in the bucket scene, however Sondivel no longer wears any lipstick.

- Great about the lipstick. I'm torn on whether this is a plot device I'd like to play through. Each survivor is at a different place in their own healing as to what experiences would be too much of a trigger.

[*] Sondivel no longer signs his last letter with Sondy, he now signs it with: Your Sondivel.

- Good change. The less camp the better with this topic.

[*] I don't think I really noticed any new dialogue, pretty much most of the references to Sharp's physical features in Sondivel's correspondence got cut or toned down.

- Unfortunate Sharp wasn't given more agency and dialogue at least. This ignores a lot of the critique around this. I am torn on Sondivel's correspondence getting but and toned down though - for again, I feel people like this are gross and their evilness doesn't need to be muted and hidden. It depends on how this was done for me and I'd have to see the differences to fully know.

[*] I also don't think Sharp has any dialogue anymore about not wanting to be touched when you ask Sharp to tell you something about himself.

- Bad change if this is the case - saw the post though that this dialogue may still be there.

[*] There is no extra dialogue options that I've noticed that weren't there before. I have the feeling that Sharp did more emoting when talking to him, but I'm not sure.

- I think some of us hoped for replaced dialogue and more dialogue for Sharp, not just snipping of what was there.
[/list]

I read through your message here again and I think most of it was what I was trying to convey in my earlier statement. That they toned down Telvanni's horribleness and cut Sharp's dialogues was a bad idea (except in the case of toning down the stereotypical lipstick thing that the Telvanni had. We really didn't need a gay caricature for this quest, and that was kind of tone deaf).

But ultimately, these cuts are illustrating my point that they've decreased the focus on Sharp (by cutting his dialogue) and increased the focus on Telvanni while simultaneously downgrading the abuse the happened. Even if they want to keep all three quests as a sort of revenge epic, it's still not good to have such a mismatched focus like this.

Wolf_Eye · May 2023

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s just a game. You can’t make good story if it’s

Except, if it's written in a poor way, then it's NOT a good story.

And I would argue that misrepresenting SA by writing it poorly is, in a way, it's own type of censorship. If you're going to show it in a way that waves away it's impact, or puts too much focus on the abuser instead of the victim, then you're misrepresenting the truth. And might even risk implying that the abuser is more important, censoring the voice of the victim.

~

I disagree that this is what happened in this quest. The end result is muting the presentation of the perpetrators behavior, when it’s their behavior that should be on trial and not the victims. I agree with some of the changes fixing maybe the worst of his dialogue though.

As far as how to handle Sharp, I personally didn’t think his characterization was bad. I certainly don’t like removing any of his dialogue or text.

I completed my honors thesis interviewing male survivors of sexual assault. At the time it was a topic nearly completely missing in the academic journals. A theme specific to male survivors especially early on in their realization is often a burying of feelings and deep sense of shame. It’s unlikely Sharp would want to have lots of dialogue about this experience with the player character he just met. That he gets to kill his abuser is already some level of fantasy empowerment for the character but that alone will not fully heal him.

Many of those I interviewed never talked about this to anyone. At the time on my campus resources and counselors for sexual assault were for female students only. I know for many victims male and female they also may hide this has happened at all for years, for various reasons.

But the quest is still mostly fixated on that Telvanni fellow and NOT Sharp. That's my point though. The fact that they muted his horribleness is just another layer of "you see? He's not so bad. Let's focus on him", which is still drowning out Sharp's point of view.

I know you said a male victim wouldn't have much to say, likely, and that is fine. But I don't agree that we should have had every single one of his quests be about "oh let's go kill an abuser, Telvanni what's-his-name, and oh hey Sharp is along for the ride as a sidekick". It just feels nasty.

Telvanni-face should have been quickly taken care of in the first quest, with all of his horribleness laid out (but give the player a warning for it) and we should have moved on to doing stuff that Sharp likes for subsequent quests. I hope that makes more sense.

I can appreciate what you are saying, but I prefer the quest structure as is. It's a grave topic and not one I'd like to have seen settled in 15 minutes of game play.

I would LOVE for Sharp to get more quests in the future where we do explore him starting to enjoy life more freely. The "one and done" treatment of Companions where they never get new content is something I dislike as someone who loves companions and want to see more development of our relationships with them.

That's fair. I appreciate and respect you and your perspective, as well as your research, and I can't really argue with that. I can only really speak for myself.

As you pointed out, we only really get three quests with companions....and then nothing else. With such a short format, I'm not sure it's enough for a lot of in-depth looks at our companions. I know I was left wanting for more Mirri content after finishing her whole questline; I really wanted to meet the rest of her family. It's a shame...

~

I completely appreciate your point of view also. We all have our own experiences and desires for how we engage with our entertainment. I think a lot of this does come down to how our companions only get development for one year and then they kind of fall into the background. I think all the companions need a "season 2" or a minimum of one or two follow up quests each year, as well as new commentary on the new zones and quests we are doing.

I do feel bad for Bastian / Mirri - who I felt didn't even have much to say in their own expansion. I saw improvements with Isobel (didn't play with Ember yet), but even then there is so much more that could be written about our ongoing relationships with our companions as we travel with them to new places.

I would love a season two of companion questlines. And also...I don't think Mirri and Bastion give you "Farewell" letters like the rest of them, do they? I don't remember that happening, at least, but I'm also not in game to check right now. If they don't, then I really hope ZOS might consider giving them letters as well in the future. I would love to read what they say.

AScarlato · May 2023

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

I read through your message here again and I think most of it was what I was trying to convey in my earlier statement. That they toned down Telvanni's horribleness and cut Sharp's dialogues was a bad idea (except in the case of toning down the stereotypical lipstick thing that the Telvanni had. We really didn't need a gay caricature for this quest, and that was kind of tone deaf).

But ultimately, these cuts are illustrating my point that they've decreased the focus on Sharp (by cutting his dialogue) and increased the focus on Telvanni while simultaneously downgrading the abuse the happened. Even if they want to keep all three quests as a sort of revenge epic, it's still not good to have such a mismatched focus like this.

I definitely agree. I do think there are ways for Sharp to be more prominent in his own quest than what we have that could have been explored, but unless they are willing to have the voice actor return so close to release I am sad that we probably won't get this.

SatanicSister · May 2023

I have not played through the updated questline and I might not do that as I don't want to wear myself out with it before the new chapter goes live. This oppinion is based on the old version of the story.

I really didn't know if I should give my opinion about the quest here, as I really don't want to offend anyone. I have no personal experience with SA, I do however have experience with mental abuse when I was younger and after it ended, my mind went into a sort of self-preservation mode and blocked out a lot that happened during the years when I was abused. I do remember this period now but it still is a bit hazy.

So Sharp, in a way, reminds me of myself and I really love his character. I think the writers did an amazing job, making him the kind of person he was in the quests and his overall comments. Because I recognize his characteristics.

Before the change, I read though every conversation option so that I could know as much as possible before I make up my mind about the storyline there.

I never got the feeling that his story was about SA. Ofcourse it was a part of it but the reason why Sondivel was so obsessed with him wasn't because he was a man or because he was attracted to him as a guy. Rather it was about Sharps resistance and strong willpower that made it Sondivel's obsession to bend him to his will and the more he fought back, the more he wanted to subdue him. That being said, Sondivel was definitely not gay. Like most of the people in Tamriel and I think dark elves in particular, he had his way with both men and women. He didn't have a gender preference rather than race preference. Dimik-Ei was also important to him and he was very annoyed when she couldn't be attuned anymore. I'm glad that they decided to lose the lipstick though. It was just hideous.

Loved Federo and the drunk bosmer in his house. I think she gave some insight into Federos character. He truly cared about Sharp and gave up his comfortable life to save his friend.

Liked Mevei. Talking to her when she's first met gives some insight into the reasons Sondivel was so obsessed with Sharp. She and Reynila set a good example of dark elves working against slavery (and as it seems so important to some people, they were a good example of lesbian marriage too).

When Dimik-Ei contacted Sharp, I think he was right and she had selfish motivations to try and help him to get his memories back. Sharp himself did not want to get his memories back. He had already accepted that his memories were lost and had chosen to move forward. He only agreed to go through the memory thing for Dimik-Ei.

It is important to read Sharp's letter to understand his reason to give himself back to Sondivel if it's the only way to save others. Because in this letter he clearly states that although he can't remember Dimik-Ei he felt the pain when he let her down and failed to keep her safe from the Reformer. So his willingness to go back to the reformer isn't about thinking that it's the right thing to do to go back to his abuser. I got the feeling that he felt guilty for letting Dimik-Ei down and not being there for her when she needed him the most, so he would rather save her and suffer himself than live with the guilt.

Killing Sondivel wasn't about healing. It was more about closure, making sure that he doesn't do to anyone else the same he did to him and the other slaves in his possesion. Because Sharp doesn't remember anything, it actually gave him a chance for a new beginning and choosing to let his friends and Dimik-Ei to be part of his life is a huge progression towards healing. So I think healing part was actually nicely done.

My oppinion probably became long-winded as I have some difficulty explaining my feelings in a text in another language. So long story short, I liked the original quests. Although people claim it was poorly written and bad, I felt there were several layers to the story and imo the writing wasn't bad at all. I read through the comments here and my oppinion about the changes comes from reading these. I am glad that "Sondy" lost his lipstick and got some minor edits in his journal and letters but feel that taking away parts of Sharp's text was too much as it sort of takes away part of his personality. I hope that it doesn't get butchered any further.

AScarlato · May 2023

SatanicSister wrote: »

I have not played through the updated questline and I might not do that as I don't want to wear myself out with it before the new chapter goes live. This oppinion is based on the old version of the story.
I really didn't know if I should give my opinion about the quest here, as I really don't want to offend anyone. I have no personal experience with SA, I do however have experience with mental abuse when I was younger and after it ended, my mind went into a sort of self-preservation mode and blocked out a lot that happened during the years when I was abused. I do remember this period now but it still is a bit hazy.

So Sharp, in a way, reminds me of myself and I really love his character. I think the writers did an amazing job, making him the kind of person he was in the quests and his overall comments. Because I recognize his characteristics.

Before the change, I read though every conversation option so that I could know as much as possible before I make up my mind about the storyline there.

I never got the feeling that his story was about SA. Ofcourse it was a part of it but the reason why Sondivel was so obsessed with him wasn't because he was a man or because he was attracted to him as a guy. Rather it was about Sharps resistance and strong willpower that made it Sondivel's obsession to bend him to his will and the more he fought back, the more he wanted to subdue him. That being said, Sondivel was definitely not gay. Like most of the people in Tamriel and I think dark elves in particular, he had his way with both men and women. He didn't have a gender preference rather than race preference. Dimik-Ei was also important to him and he was very annoyed when she couldn't be attuned anymore. I'm glad that they decided to lose the lipstick though. It was just hideous.

Loved Federo and the drunk bosmer in his house. I think she gave some insight into Federos character. He truly cared about Sharp and gave up his comfortable life to save his friend.

Liked Mevei. Talking to her when she's first met gives some insight into the reasons Sondivel was so obsessed with Sharp. She and Reynila set a good example of dark elves working against slavery (and as it seems so important to some people, they were a good example of lesbian marriage too).

When Dimik-Ei contacted Sharp, I think he was right and she had selfish motivations to try and help him to get his memories back. Sharp himself did not want to get his memories back. He had already accepted that his memories were lost and had chosen to move forward. He only agreed to go through the memory thing for Dimik-Ei.

It is important to read Sharp's letter to understand his reason to give himself back to Sondivel if it's the only way to save others. Because in this letter he clearly states that although he can't remember Dimik-Ei he felt the pain when he let her down and failed to keep her safe from the Reformer. So his willingness to go back to the reformer isn't about thinking that it's the right thing to do to go back to his abuser. I got the feeling that he felt guilty for letting Dimik-Ei down and not being there for her when she needed him the most, so he would rather save her and suffer himself than live with the guilt.

Killing Sondivel wasn't about healing. It was more about closure, making sure that he doesn't do to anyone else the same he did to him and the other slaves in his possesion. Because Sharp doesn't remember anything, it actually gave him a chance for a new beginning and choosing to let his friends and Dimik-Ei to be part of his life is a huge progression towards healing. So I think healing part was actually nicely done.

My oppinion probably became long-winded as I have some difficulty explaining my feelings in a text in another language. So long story short, I liked the original quests. Although people claim it was poorly written and bad, I felt there were several layers to the story and imo the writing wasn't bad at all. I read through the comments here and my oppinion about the changes comes from reading these. I am glad that "Sondy" lost his lipstick and got some minor edits in his journal and letters but feel that taking away parts of Sharp's text was too much as it sort of takes away part of his personality. I hope that it doesn't get butchered any further.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and sorry to hear about what happened in your past. I'm glad that there was parts of Sharp you could relate to, and I enjoyed reading your insights.

PrinceShroob · May 2023

Considering that they've mentioned companion romance, I feel that that would be a good place to handle further healing for Sharp, especially considering that he spells out very clearly that he credits the player with helping him improve. Perhaps something like learning his Jel name, for example.

The advantage of a post-release additional quest is that it can address wider feedback on the character (for example, Bastian and Mirri only have three quests each compared to everyone else's four, so as an example, their post-release content could be longer).

I think, otherwise, it's a little late for should'ves. I was very concerned about the questline on release because I gathered from discussion that it was much more gratuitous. I want to emphasize that I do not have any triggers regarding the subject matter, so I'm not the one you should ask about whether it went too far. It doesn't feel right to say I enjoyed it, but I fell in love with the character. It made me sad to watch him struggle through his emotions, feelings from memories he didn't have. It made me cry to see him healing.

I think that's still there. I'd leave Sharp's dialogue alone; nothing he says it out of line with the quest as it currently is on PTS. I would restore his mention of hating being touched to his letter. I'm neutral on his recognition of Federo's feelings; I'm not sure if it adds much, but it is comforting to think he can recognize romantic affection and choose to decline it.

With regard to the present iteration, I'm fine with whatever doesn't destroy the core of the emotional impact of the story. It's a Telvanni chapter and it's a story that reminds you that House Telvanni has an insidious, toxic mindset that creates and endorses abuse, like Sun-in-Shadow's questline or Revus Demnevanni's quest in Blackwood, after Morrowind and Skyrim portrayed the House as comedic.

I don't think I expected something as moving as Sebille killing the Shadow Prince in Divinity: Original Sin II; it's the difference between a story built into the premise of the game (a companion's story that can also be a player character's story if you play as that companion) versus one added later, and not even as the main focus of the content.

Idly, as someone who loves music and the emotions carried through music, perhaps a completely unique location and battle theme could be added for the fight with Sondivel, similar to "Broken Shackles" in Original Sin II.

***

I would like to share my personal experience with a triggering topic since there have been a few posts asking, essentially, why people care about how sensitive topics are presented.

TW suicide and suicidal ideation

As I said, I don't have any regarding the content of this questline. I have recently realized that I find Hirrus Clutumnus' quest in the Shivering Isles DLC for Oblivion triggering.

In that quest, a suicidal man approaches you and begs you to kill him. Your only option is to do so. Once he's dead, you loot his house for your reward, a magic "Ring of Happiness" that's a thinly-veiled reference to antidepressants. Hirrus mentions in a farewell letter that he stopped wearing the ring, an obvious allusion to people not taking their medication because it makes them feel different.

The entire DLC treats mental illness as humorous and "quirky"; other NPCs make fun of Hirrus' feelings. Hearing thoughts I have had come out of a fictional character's mouth and then knowing that the only option is using my virtual avatar character to end his life... it makes me nauseous. It hurts to think about. I feel an indescribable sense of dread knowing the quest exists, and, worse, that I cannot do the expansion's content without being reminded of the quest, because not only do NPCs talk about poor Hirrus, he also seeks you out to forcibly begin the quest as long as you're in Crucible.

Perhaps that puts things in perspective. It really doesn't matter if it's fiction, the feelings it inspires are real and hurt real people.

sneakymitchell · May 2023

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s just a game. You can’t make good story if it’s

Except, if it's written in a poor way, then it's NOT a good story.

And I would argue that misrepresenting SA by writing it poorly is, in a way, it's own type of censorship. If you're going to show it in a way that waves away it's impact, or puts too much focus on the abuser instead of the victim, then you're misrepresenting the truth. And might even risk implying that the abuser is more important, censoring the voice of the victim.

~

I disagree that this is what happened in this quest. The end result is muting the presentation of the perpetrators behavior, when it’s their behavior that should be on trial and not the victims. I agree with some of the changes fixing maybe the worst of his dialogue though.

As far as how to handle Sharp, I personally didn’t think his characterization was bad. I certainly don’t like removing any of his dialogue or text.

I completed my honors thesis interviewing male survivors of sexual assault. (My thesis won an award out of a campus of 40K students and I subsequently was invited to speak on the topic.) The point of it was to give voice to the voiceless - but only to the extent they felt comfortable having that voice. Every one of them spoke only under strict anonymity.

At the time it was a topic nearly completely missing in the academic journals. A theme specific to male survivors especially early on in their realization is often a burying of feelings and deep sense of shame. Many of those I interviewed never talked about this to anyone. At the time on my campus resources and counselors for sexual assault were for female students only. I know for many victims male and female they also may hide this has happened at all for years, for various reasons.

To me, it’s unlikely Sharp would want to have lots of dialogue about this experience with the player character he just met. That he gets to kill his abuser is already some level of fantasy empowerment for the character but that alone will not fully heal him.

This is why I question how much attention Sharp would feel comfortable with, and how much healing we as the player character would witness in the very abbreviated (one year) time frame ESO takes place in. That said, I do appreciate the letter he writes and it feels that is his attempt to open up without having to say it in person. I know it was critiqued this was a letter and not dialogue, but I could definitely see him more comfortable writing a letter about his feelings than an open conversation.

Thing is this is a different world a make believe. If it’s so hard to write a story without offending anyone well you’re not cut out to be a writer. But it’s whatever. When I watch the story and see the writing then I will judge. I see it happen with too many movies not going overboard with topics cause afraid of offending small amount of people. Example recent The Whale movie. A good story talks about a man’s problems then he later became obese and wanted to make his wrongs by trying to connect people he hasn’t seen.

AScarlato · May 2023

sneakymitchell wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

sneakymitchell wrote: »

It’s just a game. You can’t make good story if it’s

Except, if it's written in a poor way, then it's NOT a good story.

And I would argue that misrepresenting SA by writing it poorly is, in a way, it's own type of censorship. If you're going to show it in a way that waves away it's impact, or puts too much focus on the abuser instead of the victim, then you're misrepresenting the truth. And might even risk implying that the abuser is more important, censoring the voice of the victim.

~

I disagree that this is what happened in this quest. The end result is muting the presentation of the perpetrators behavior, when it’s their behavior that should be on trial and not the victims. I agree with some of the changes fixing maybe the worst of his dialogue though.

As far as how to handle Sharp, I personally didn’t think his characterization was bad. I certainly don’t like removing any of his dialogue or text.

I completed my honors thesis interviewing male survivors of sexual assault. (My thesis won an award out of a campus of 40K students and I subsequently was invited to speak on the topic.) The point of it was to give voice to the voiceless - but only to the extent they felt comfortable having that voice. Every one of them spoke only under strict anonymity.

At the time it was a topic nearly completely missing in the academic journals. A theme specific to male survivors especially early on in their realization is often a burying of feelings and deep sense of shame. Many of those I interviewed never talked about this to anyone. At the time on my campus resources and counselors for sexual assault were for female students only. I know for many victims male and female they also may hide this has happened at all for years, for various reasons.

To me, it’s unlikely Sharp would want to have lots of dialogue about this experience with the player character he just met. That he gets to kill his abuser is already some level of fantasy empowerment for the character but that alone will not fully heal him.

This is why I question how much attention Sharp would feel comfortable with, and how much healing we as the player character would witness in the very abbreviated (one year) time frame ESO takes place in. That said, I do appreciate the letter he writes and it feels that is his attempt to open up without having to say it in person. I know it was critiqued this was a letter and not dialogue, but I could definitely see him more comfortable writing a letter about his feelings than an open conversation.

Thing is this is a different world a make believe. If it’s so hard to write a story without offending anyone well you’re not cut out to be a writer. But it’s whatever. When I watch the story and see the writing then I will judge. I see it happen with too many movies not going overboard with topics cause afraid of offending small amount of people. Example recent The Whale movie. A good story talks about a man’s problems then he later became obese and wanted to make his wrongs by trying to connect people he hasn’t seen.

I think that many people, including the OP, didn't want to exclude the subject matter entirely. People will have differences of opinions as to what is tasteful or not.

I find the Oblivion quest PrinceShroob brought up to be offensive and tasteless based on the observations he made about it. Writing without regard to your audience at some point to me means you aren't cut out to be a writer either.

I understand the concern about censorship, and what crosses the line for some may not cross a line for others. But when your product is open to a broad audience a decision needs to be made somewhere. For this topic, there are some SA survivors who should not play this quest at all - they simply aren't in their stage of healing to want to experience these issues in their entertainment. I'd recommend a content warning like was suggested in this thread so they can spam through the questline or skip it entirely. That doesn't mean it should be removed entirely for everyone as a topic, and I don't think that is what is being said here.

I actually mostly support the original version of this quest. That said, even I believed some changes were needed and welcome. Some aspects were definitely of questionable taste to the average person, in my opinion, and a review was a good idea.

FayJolyn · May 2023

PrinceShroob wrote: »

Considering that they've mentioned companion romance, I feel that that would be a good place to handle further healing for Sharp,

The advantage of a post-release additional quest is that it can address wider feedback on the character (for example, Bastian and Mirri only have three quests each compared to everyone else's four, so as an example, their post-release content could be longer).

I think, otherwise, it's a little late for should'ves. I was very concerned about the questline on release because I gathered from discussion that it was much more gratuitous. I want to emphasize that I do not have any triggers regarding the subject matter, so I'm not the one you should ask about whether it went too far. It doesn't feel right to say I enjoyed it, but I fell in love with the character. It made me sad to watch him struggle through his emotions, feelings from memories he didn't have. It made me cry to see him healing.

First of all thank you for sharing your story, As someone who deals with similar issues on that subject, i feel ya, even though I hadn't done that particular quest yet.

You hit the nail on the head when you wrote that it feels not right to have enjoyed Sharp's character and his struggle. That's been my experience too. I was reading back my own earlier posts and I remember struggling to find the words to make clear that even with all my criticisms I still enjoyed for what it was. It's not often that a quest sends me on a 3am rambling spree.

I do hope they revert some of the recent changes though. My biggest critical points where Sondy and his silly lipstick, I'm glad that's gone. The rest however I'm not that happy about. I'm no survivor, but the topic is dear to my heart. I can live with the original version of the quest as I really do want to see the SA part of Sharp's journey too. It's part of why I did get attached to him in the first place.

I liked your suggestions about expanding on the companions at a future date. As someone who is in favor for companion romance I feel it could be a take on a possible healing arc for Sharp that many have wanted.

***
Lasty a note for all the people who are sharing their thoughts in this thread - I've been reading through them all with much interest and wanted to thank you all for sharing.

Part of me want to reply to them all but I don't want to clog up the thread.

Edit: rewrote line for clarity

nerevoryn · May 2023

Ehhhh. SA has always been overtly present in TES. Nothing new under the sun here.

Tiber Septim? R*pist. Divayth Fyr? Arguably a groomer. Vivec? Victim-turned-perpetraror. Molag Bal? Quite literally the King of R*pe.

Maybe the questline could be approached with more tact, but to those calling for its removal or heavy censorship- you might be engaging with a franchise that doesn't align with your sensitivities.

Though that whole thing would aaabsolutely be in character for someone in house Telvanni and I have a hard time seeing how anyone can argue it's not. Not only can anyone regardless of their faction be a predator, but it doesn't help that in general Telvanni mages tend to dehumanize non-Dunmer. And if it's gonna be a slave on top of that? They might as well be nothing more than a toy to them.
Why would a Telvanni care about what another member of their household do with their playthings if it doesn't affect them? They have more important things to worry about.

PrinceShroob · May 2023

Would someone be able to check the change listed in the 9.0.3 patch notes?

This would be the scene where Sharp touches the tyranite and Sondivel's projection appears, I'm assuming.

I know Sondivel's journal had its text changed and he had one line of dialogue deleted. I'm a bit leery of "polishing" but after Sondivel's line was cut I'm not sure what the change could be.

I'm a bit disappointed that there's no mention of restoring any of Sharp's dialogue but perhaps that would be an undocumented change.

As much as I love 'im, I think twice through his questline is about my limit before live.

AScarlato · May 2023

PrinceShroob wrote: »

Would someone be able to check the change listed in the 9.0.3 patch notes?

This would be the scene where Sharp touches the tyranite and Sondivel's projection appears, I'm assuming.

I know Sondivel's journal had its text changed and he had one line of dialogue deleted. I'm a bit leery of "polishing" but after Sondivel's line was cut I'm not sure what the change could be.

I'm a bit disappointed that there's no mention of restoring any of Sharp's dialogue but perhaps that would be an undocumented change.

As much as I love 'im, I think twice through his questline is about my limit before live.

Thanks for tracking what's going on with this quest. I only saw the original version of the quest but I am also interested if there is further sanitation going on. I'm already disappointed that none of the feedback here mattered and nothing at all was restored. If more was removed I guess we know the direction they have settled on.

isadoraisacat · May 2023

Synaryn wrote: »

In Sharp's quest, it's quickly revealed he's a former slave with total amnesia, and his master was a Telvanni magister called Sondivel Ulres. The relationship very much reads as sexually abusive. I have a screenshot collection detailing this part. Now, I'm in no way opposed to a questline exploring SA, and TES has done a great job exploring dark subjects before. Lamae Bal's introduction was done very well in my opinion, and Serana was excellent all around! But Sharp's questline doesn't handle this subject with any of the grace it deserves, and by the end of playing it I felt so gross and disturbed the way the quest treated this so carelessly.

The major issue is Sharp is shoved out of the spotlight in his own questline with narrative emphasis given to Sondevil. With so much of the emphasis in Sondevil, it makes Sharp feel like an object used to villify him, than a protagonist with agency in his own story, which is especially awful in an SA storyline. Sondivel's obsession is hammered in so often it comes off as using it for shock value. The metaphors and oblique language used to sidestep the nature of the abuse only draw out this shock value, rather than explicitly stating it and moving on to Sharp's healing instead of rehashing his trauma. There's a scene where we play as Sharp in one of his memories of being abused by Sondevil, and the dialogue is so bad and gross it's like reading a Fifty Shades of Grey fanfic. As an SA survivor, it was really offputting and difficult to get through.

My feedback to improve this quest is:
Condense the Sondivel plotline to Sharp's first two quests and make Sharp's second two quests about healing and reconnecting with his sister.

Very few SA storylines ever explore the healing that comes afterward, only the trauma itself. Doing this would be ZOS actually pushing boundaries, and centering an SA survivor in their own story. The narrative emphasis would be on Sharp rather than Sondevil.

Change the POV in Sharp's memory scene to being an observer rather than as Sharp

While this scene is very effective at getting you to empathize with Sharp, it's not needed for you to be in his shoes. Sondevil's cartoonish villainly does plenty for us to empathize with Sharp, and pushing it to this point turns it into just shock value.

Make Federo's implied feelings for Sharp more explicit so his more healthy relationship contrasts to Sondivel's obsession

Having a character with healthy normal feelings for Sharp gives breathing room from the SA and helps remove some of the narrative emphasis on Sondivel's obsession.

Make the sexual abuse explicitly mentioned early on, have only one or two of Sondivel's flowery speeches about his obsession with Sharp

As mentioned, hammering it in with metaphors and oblique language comes off as gross and using the SA, again, as in-your-face shock value. State it, give the examples, and stop the shock value.

As someone who was a victim of SA as a child I think I’m going to skip this companion.

FayJolyn · May 2023

I will check the changes in the new build out as soon I'm able too, and report back here in this post. o/

AScarlato · May 2023

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Synaryn wrote: »

In Sharp's quest, it's quickly revealed he's a former slave with total amnesia, and his master was a Telvanni magister called Sondivel Ulres. The relationship very much reads as sexually abusive. I have a screenshot collection detailing this part. Now, I'm in no way opposed to a questline exploring SA, and TES has done a great job exploring dark subjects before. Lamae Bal's introduction was done very well in my opinion, and Serana was excellent all around! But Sharp's questline doesn't handle this subject with any of the grace it deserves, and by the end of playing it I felt so gross and disturbed the way the quest treated this so carelessly.

The major issue is Sharp is shoved out of the spotlight in his own questline with narrative emphasis given to Sondevil. With so much of the emphasis in Sondevil, it makes Sharp feel like an object used to villify him, than a protagonist with agency in his own story, which is especially awful in an SA storyline. Sondivel's obsession is hammered in so often it comes off as using it for shock value. The metaphors and oblique language used to sidestep the nature of the abuse only draw out this shock value, rather than explicitly stating it and moving on to Sharp's healing instead of rehashing his trauma. There's a scene where we play as Sharp in one of his memories of being abused by Sondevil, and the dialogue is so bad and gross it's like reading a Fifty Shades of Grey fanfic. As an SA survivor, it was really offputting and difficult to get through.

My feedback to improve this quest is:
Condense the Sondivel plotline to Sharp's first two quests and make Sharp's second two quests about healing and reconnecting with his sister.

Very few SA storylines ever explore the healing that comes afterward, only the trauma itself. Doing this would be ZOS actually pushing boundaries, and centering an SA survivor in their own story. The narrative emphasis would be on Sharp rather than Sondevil.

Change the POV in Sharp's memory scene to being an observer rather than as Sharp

While this scene is very effective at getting you to empathize with Sharp, it's not needed for you to be in his shoes. Sondevil's cartoonish villainly does plenty for us to empathize with Sharp, and pushing it to this point turns it into just shock value.

Make Federo's implied feelings for Sharp more explicit so his more healthy relationship contrasts to Sondivel's obsession

Having a character with healthy normal feelings for Sharp gives breathing room from the SA and helps remove some of the narrative emphasis on Sondivel's obsession.

Make the sexual abuse explicitly mentioned early on, have only one or two of Sondivel's flowery speeches about his obsession with Sharp

As mentioned, hammering it in with metaphors and oblique language comes off as gross and using the SA, again, as in-your-face shock value. State it, give the examples, and stop the shock value.

As someone who was a victim of SA as a child I think I’m going to skip this companion.

I think that is totally fair and I think they should have a content warning for this quest. All SA victims have their own tolerance for triggers and content they want to interact with when it comes to this topic.

The concern here was that other SA victim's did appreciate the attempt to tackle this topic - ESPECIALLY the topic of male victims of SA which gets nearly no serious exploration in media. IMO, the original quest wasn't perfect and some of the changes are great, but I don't love the direction of the rest of the edits they are doing.

FayJolyn · May 2023

I just did the scene again. It was completely the same as far as I could tell.

Although fun fact; When Sharp is in air in after he touched the calx he actually manages to free himself if you don't break the stone in time. The projection of Sondivel just keeps standing there in silence. I found out this by accident because I had to go AFK real quick because my kettle was boiling. I don't think it was intentional, I think the levitating effect on Sharp just has a limited cast time. You're meant to quickly break the stone after all. But you could also take it into your personal narrative and read it so that Sharp is of course strong enough to break away from it himself.

Also didn't notice any large changes either, although I did not let all the dialogue play out this time because I have completed the whole questline twice already.

AScarlato · May 2023

@FayJolyn Thank you so much for doing this!

PrinceShroob · May 2023

FayJolyn wrote: »

I just did the scene again. It was completely the same as far as I could tell.

Although fun fact; When Sharp is in air in after he touched the calx he actually manages to free himself if you don't break the stone in time. The projection of Sondivel just keeps standing there in silence. I found out this by accident because I had to go AFK real quick because my kettle was boiling. I don't think it was intentional, I think the levitating effect on Sharp just has a limited cast time. You're meant to quickly break the stone after all. But you could also take it into your personal narrative and read it so that Sharp is of course strong enough to break away from it himself.

Also didn't notice any large changes either, although I did not let all the dialogue play out this time because I have completed the whole questline twice already.

Thank you for testing!

As far as I could tell, the letter remains the same as 9.0.2. and Sharp retains the same companion and houseguest dialogue (so no companion dialogue about not being touched but he has houseguest dialogue about it).

Very odd. I wonder what was changed.

FayJolyn · May 2023

Did you guys read the introductory letter ZOS wrote for Sharp on the front page today? I personally thought it was very nice actually. Link to the Sharp post.

Also I've been thinking - they might be do a Twitch interview with the voice cast in the future, or invite some of the writers on. Even with the questline now altered in the current way, I am still curious how the behind the scenes progress went. Setting aside my own criticisms the questline in its current form for a moment here, I do think the VO of Sharp did a phenomenal job with the role. (as did the rest of the side cast btw) Sharp as a companion stands firmly on my personal #1 now. I do really like him.

Seeing as the last patch notes didn't bring out any noticeable changes that we could find. I highly doubt they going to make big changes to his questline at this stage unfortunately. As much as I dislike some of their recent choices regarding Sharp's questline, I'm going to try to look at the future instead. I definitely hope to ask them if they have future plans for all the companions - like an extension of their stories or romance options. How do you guys feel about it?

PrinceShroob · May 2023

FayJolyn wrote: »

Did you guys read the introductory letter ZOS wrote for Sharp on the front page today? I personally thought it was very nice actually. Link to the Sharp post.

I thought the Meet the Character was nice, though there wasn't a whole lot that was new information. It was actually implicitly more about Reynila, which I suppose is fine considering she dies very early in the questline.

I don't think further adjustments to Sharp's quests are out of the question (it took until week 3 to see any, after all), though newly recorded dialogue probably is. As a practical matter I don't think they could record new dialogue on such short notice, and if they did record new dialogue, it'd probably be new general dialogue for all companions rather than additions to Sharp's quests (because of not wanting to edit existing content and also because the quests can only be done once).

I'm optimistic for companion romance, though there are some logistical issues that have dominated my thoughts more (for example, no "harems" allowing you to romance every companion at once and I wouldn't want it to be a dialogue option that's always available). Honestly, I'm less concerned that Sharp's romance would be handled poorly and more concerned about Isobel's and Ember's (given that Isobel is implied to be a lesbian and Ember gives the impression that she's very young).

Sharp has been, as the kids say, living in my head rent-free since I did his quests a few weeks ago. He gels--to an admittedly scary degree--with my main character, for whom I had given up hope that there'd be a companion who fit with him. And now... well... They're picking out wedding venues.

AScarlato · May 2023

I really love Reynila's letter, and especially her words to treat him with caution and kindness. I found it touching and I LOVE that ESO pays writers to add this additional type of content for us. As much as I've criticized the changes here or other aspects of the game I'm not super thrilled about, I will always appreciate how much writing goes into this game. I also appreciate the original version of the quest (absent a few things I'm glad they changed) which at least shows that somewhere on the team they have an open mind to different types of representation.

I just got married in my current Skyrim playthrough and would love a relationship system here. They could just make them all player-sexual like Skyrim did, though for someone like Isobel it may feel out of character to some.

Would be kinda cool to have important NPCs we quested for show up to our wedding too like in Skyrim. Though I had a guest I never met before and had no idea why they were there lol.

Wolf_Eye · May 2023

AScarlato wrote: »

I just got married in my current Skyrim playthrough and would love a relationship system here. They could just make them all player-sexual like Skyrim did, though for someone like Isobel it may feel out of character to some.

I've always assumed, based off of Skyrim's marriage system, that virtually everyone in Tamriel was bisexual unless otherwise specified.

Although, admittedly, I have a feeling that Isobel's existence may be evidence that they plan on NEVER implementing a romance line for companions....

AScarlato · May 2023

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I just got married in my current Skyrim playthrough and would love a relationship system here. They could just make them all player-sexual like Skyrim did, though for someone like Isobel it may feel out of character to some.

I've always assumed, based off of Skyrim's marriage system, that virtually everyone in Tamriel was bisexual unless otherwise specified.

Although, admittedly, I have a feeling that Isobel's existence may be evidence that they plan on NEVER implementing a romance line for companions....

Unfortunately you may be right. I can only imagine the twitter war if they made Isobel romancable by male characters or kept female only.

I did notice that I think Bastian used some gender-neutral language before though to keep that open.

Treselegant · May 2023

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I just got married in my current Skyrim playthrough and would love a relationship system here. They could just make them all player-sexual like Skyrim did, though for someone like Isobel it may feel out of character to some.

I've always assumed, based off of Skyrim's marriage system, that virtually everyone in Tamriel was bisexual unless otherwise specified.

Although, admittedly, I have a feeling that Isobel's existence may be evidence that they plan on NEVER implementing a romance line for companions....

I always assumed, or maybe hoped, it was a step towards having more defined sexualities for companions. Mirri and Bastian always struck me as intended to be bi but then we'd also have at least one character such a Isobel into women and a male character purely into men. Would make sense to do something like that. Though, I don't really know where Ember would fit in as she does strike me as a very young character. Expecting sense where companion decisions is concerned is folly but a small tiny glimmer of optimism lives somewhere in me.

I'm just desperate for anything that adds some degree of immersion and role playing into ESO. A reason to be emotionally invested I guess.

Wolf_Eye · May 2023

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I just got married in my current Skyrim playthrough and would love a relationship system here. They could just make them all player-sexual like Skyrim did, though for someone like Isobel it may feel out of character to some.

I've always assumed, based off of Skyrim's marriage system, that virtually everyone in Tamriel was bisexual unless otherwise specified.

Although, admittedly, I have a feeling that Isobel's existence may be evidence that they plan on NEVER implementing a romance line for companions....

Unfortunately you may be right. I can only imagine the twitter war if they made Isobel romancable by male characters or kept female only.

I did notice that I think Bastian used some gender-neutral language before though to keep that open.

I'm afraid I haven't used Bastian in quite some time now. Do you happen to remember an example? I'm curious if there was evidence that they originally planned on romances.

The best I can remember is that one of the devs off-handedly said something about romance back when Blackwood first came out. But I don't think it was ever a "for sure" thing they were planning. Which is unfortunate; I know of a lot of people would love to be able to marry their toons to some of the companions...

Wolf_Eye · May 2023

Treselegant wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I just got married in my current Skyrim playthrough and would love a relationship system here. They could just make them all player-sexual like Skyrim did, though for someone like Isobel it may feel out of character to some.

I've always assumed, based off of Skyrim's marriage system, that virtually everyone in Tamriel was bisexual unless otherwise specified.

Although, admittedly, I have a feeling that Isobel's existence may be evidence that they plan on NEVER implementing a romance line for companions....

I always assumed, or maybe hoped, it was a step towards having more defined sexualities for companions. Mirri and Bastian always struck me as intended to be bi but then we'd also have at least one character such a Isobel into women and a male character purely into men. Would make sense to do something like that. Though, I don't know really know where Ember would fit in as she does strike me as a very young character. Expecting sense where companion decisions is concerned is folly but a small tiny glimmer of optimism lives somewhere in me.

I'm just desperate for anything that adds some degree of immersion and role playing into ESO. A reason to be emotionally invested I guess.

It might be as you said, with companions having defined sexualities. In which case, I would imagine that they may wait until we have one of each race released, each with their own sexuality, so as to give players a wide range of companions whom they might connect with. We still have Orcs, Bosmer, Altmer, and Nords left to represent....So another two years (if they keep up the same pace as only releasing two companions per year).

FayJolyn · May 2023

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

Although, admittedly, I have a feeling that Isobel's existence may be evidence that they plan on NEVER implementing a romance line for companions....

I don't think it could be very hard to restrict romance options for Isobel in case your character is male. This way they could actually give the characters some agency this way. Ember could also reject you regardless of gender because she feels she's not ready for any sort of romance yet (I agree that she comes across as young right now). There is room here for plausible character explanations and.. character growth.

If they do ever implement some kind of romance options in ESO I hope they really do a deep delve of it. Nothing beats a good slow burn.

And our beloved Sharp could have a healing arc of course.

AScarlato · May 2023

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

Wolf_Eye wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I just got married in my current Skyrim playthrough and would love a relationship system here. They could just make them all player-sexual like Skyrim did, though for someone like Isobel it may feel out of character to some.

I've always assumed, based off of Skyrim's marriage system, that virtually everyone in Tamriel was bisexual unless otherwise specified.

Although, admittedly, I have a feeling that Isobel's existence may be evidence that they plan on NEVER implementing a romance line for companions....

Unfortunately you may be right. I can only imagine the twitter war if they made Isobel romancable by male characters or kept female only.

I did notice that I think Bastian used some gender-neutral language before though to keep that open.

I'm afraid I haven't used Bastian in quite some time now. Do you happen to remember an example? I'm curious if there was evidence that they originally planned on romances.

The best I can remember is that one of the devs off-handedly said something about romance back when Blackwood first came out. But I don't think it was ever a "for sure" thing they were planning. Which is unfortunate; I know of a lot of people would love to be able to marry their toons to some of the companions...

Unfortunately I don't, but I recall flagging it in my head when he said it as I tend to pay attention to that kind of stuff. The closest thing I could find without reading every line of dialogue he has is from the wiki:

"I don't have a romantic partner back home, but I know a girl who would get mad if she heard me say that." (to a female player character)[verification needed — see talk page]

It says it needed verification, and maybe that line was a little different on my male character? Unfortunately it was a over a year ago.