Sharp-As-Night's questline handles its dark subject matter extremely poorly

Ratzkifal

Synaryn wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

So I've been playing through the quest now after stumbling upon this thread. I felt it was worth checking out and forming my own opinion over. I like the quest so far and Sharp's personality is great although I don't like how much he seems to dislike Eastmarch. I can understand him not liking Sadrith Mora. But I digress.

I am currently at an important(?) choice in the story:

I am guessing I won't be going through his memories if I select the option of me also wanting to forget some things? Because that kind of makes a big difference when it comes to the way the quest is being handled. I can understand SA survivors having a hard time playing through this, but if one option really allows you to skip the worst parts of it (I presume), then it isn't so bad.
Even then, so far I don't think the quest has been handling the subject poorly. Sure, Sondivel seems to be very creepy and from the screenshots I already know he is quite flamboyant, but so is Federo. But I don't think it is a problem for a flamboyant character to be evil. After all, anyone has the capability to commit evil - nobody is excluded from that. And it's not like the quest portays all characters who are like that as evil. This trope was problematic at a time where that was the rule and characters in media could only be portrayed in such a way if they were also evil. Nowadays we have examples of both good and bad. Federo is a perfect counter example to Sondivel, showing that not everyone who likes to wear lipstick and make-up like that is a creep like him.

But back to my dilemma. Which option do I pick now? I originally wanted to go through the memories to see how bad it gets, but seeing as I (presumably) have the option to not go through them, I kind of want to know if that is possible or not. Anyone picked that option? Can you let me know if it affects the story at all?

View the memory IMO, I will hop onto PTS tonight with a new character to see what the first option leads to and post screenshots.

Federo isn't that great of a counter example, it's pretty easy to miss the line where his drinking buddy implies he has feelings for Sharp, and the only other evidence for it is Federo giving up everything to run away from Sondivel. It would be good if they made it a little more obvious,it's not like they've made Sondivel's feelings subtle or anything.

Okay great. I'm playing through the memory then. This decision comes when have the option to talk to Sharp after you meet up with Dimik-ei in Shadowfen, before you go to find that second piece of tyranite calx.

Well, even if Federo is not a good example because of how subtle they are being with him... (I didn't think it was that subtle at all)? It doesn't change the fact that the story has 4 gay characters, 3 of which are nice people to the point that they are risking their lives to do the right thing and one of them is a creepy abuser. They are giving plenty of examples, some more subtle than others, that not every gay person is like that. I don't think that is problematic in the context given.

Tommy_The_Gun

Yep. If they went THIS Dark, then it for sure needs to have a content warring. Some people (even if they are adults) may react differently to what they are about to experience, because of different stuff they experienced in RL.

For example - The old horror game (Amnesia) had this mechanics in which the more sanity you lose - then at some points you can see bugs running over your PC screen. Why they went for bugs and not Spiders ? Because during their internal testing they discovered that people with Arachnofobia could literality hurt themselves / break something when jumping away from the screen.

Ratzkifal

Okay, I now finished the quest. Sondivel isn't as flamboyant as he looks at all. Yeah, he wears lipstick and he is definitely enjoying what he is doing, but he isn't flamboyant in his mannerisms at all. I don't feel like he is a caricature of a gay person at all the same way I don't think Louis XIV is one for wearing high heels and makeup. That's just what the guy looks like. Nothing else. Yes he is creepy. Yes he is evil. But none of that is because of him being gay. So at least on that front I think the quest is in the clear.

As for the writing ... How exactly did Sondivel kidnap Dimik-ei? You'd think that if he was able to kidnap her that quickly, he could have kidnapped Sharp as well (or instead). I get that you cannot take the companion away from the player, but that just means you cannot have him kidnap Dimik-ei in that moment like that either. That is poor writing and my biggest gripe with the story. It makes no narrative sense. As a writer you could have had a break during which Dimik-ei tries to learn more about the tyranite calx, which alerts Sondivel and allows him to kidnap her between quests. That makes a whole lot more sense considering Dimik-ei used to be attuned as well and is still just learning about this kind of magic so an accident could probably cause her to get captured. As a side effect that would also get rid of the memory scene there. Personally I didn't think the scene itself was too bad. Yes, if you are a survivor of SA, that's probably an uncomfortable experience and so having that scene be optional would be ideal. Maybe it already is if you choose that other dialogue option. Thankfully it's not very long and not very explicit anyway.

But if it makes more narrative sense if that scene wasn't included at all because Dimik-ei is only meant to be kidnapped during it and later rescued, then why bother leaving something in that only breaks the story and makes people uncomfortable? That's the worst part in my opinion. If the inclusion of this scene made for a better story, then sure, leave it in. But it ultimately served no narrative purpose other than denying us the option of choosing forgiveness I suppose. Not that I think any of the characters would have chosen that path regardless. It was clear from the start that Sondivel needs to be stopped so he cannot continue to harm others. There was no need to up the stakes anymore. It was already personal.
In the grand scheme of things Dimik-ei getting kidnapped changed nothing. We would still go out to kill Sondivel whether she was kidnapped or not. There is sort of an emotional pay off there during the final showdown, but I just don't think that works within the context of the story. Spoiler for the final outcome of the story:

Having her kidnapped at that moment just prevents Sharp from getting his full memories back right then and there. I do like that this sort of gets a pay off during the fight with Sondivel when he tries to bargain as he is about to lose. In case you killed him too fast, he says "if you kill me, you will never get your memories back", which is great as Sharp shows his resolve and isn't even tempted by that. He chooses to stop Sondivel and save Dimik-ei over getting his memories back and falling back into the clutches of his abuser. As a parallel, in a real abuse case having the abused stand up to the abuser like that would be a great way to demonstrate how much they've grown and show that the abuser has no control over their former victim any more. That's usually a great moment in stories like that. Sadly the dynamic in this story isn't quite like this, because at no point did Sharp feel like Sondivel still had control over him emotionally, so what could have been a great moment is just kind of wasted. I guess you could see that as being a poor handling of the theme. Personally I don't think it was poor handling of it, but more so a poor execution on what would otherwise be a good moment. The way it is now this character moment for Sharp is just wasted as he would never at any point in the story have chosen to learn his past over bringing an end to Sondivel. There was no character growth to be witnessed in this and so it doesn't quite deliver what I think it was meant to represent. Especially not as part of combat dialogue which you will miss if you oneshot Sondivel in his second phase because you are dealing too much damage.

At least we get to bucketsplash Sondivel in the memory. It's funny how it was my immediate thought to use the bucketsplash emote on him for a funny screenshot, but then the quest actually goes there anyway. I liked that for how petty it is given that we cannot do him actual harm at that point. Yes, we do still get to kill him later, just not during the memory.

Over all I did enjoy the story for the most part and it's probably one of the more memorable quests. The end felt a bit rushed and I wouldn't be surprised if it felt that way because it was. Sharp has a great sense of humor and considering it's him who is making the only jokes in this quest line (probably his coping mechanism) I don't think it clashed with the tone of the quest.

Synaryn

I went through the quest again to that point and selected the first option and there wasn't any change in the quest (that dialogue with Sharp is an optional suggested step anyways). This is all he said. Tbh going through the quest again was a rather sickening and draining experience. and it just makes me sad this quest even exists.

xgoku1

Wow, they really put a POV segment where you replay the memories of, and play as the SA victim.

The McGuffin in this questline is also conceptually gross, it's basically an item that invalidates consent, by making the abuser's thoughts appear as the victim's free will. And if that weren't enough, it also works faster the harder you resist abuse!

The purple lipstick and signing the letter 'Sondy~' really seals the Buffalo Bill caricature.

This isn't even lore appropriate for the Telvanni. Telvanni being pro-slavery is 'balanced' by them being famously disinterested in everything else, and being highly meritocratic (even for slaves, and non-Dunmer). Magisters being obsessed stalkers for an ex-slave is just nonsensical.

If the writers' room really thinks this is a story that needs to be told, IMO this would be better packaged as a Dres plotline.

Faulgor

xgoku1 wrote: »

This isn't even lore appropriate for the Telvanni. Telvanni being pro-slavery is 'balanced' by them being famously disinterested in everything else, and being highly meritocratic (even for slaves, and non-Dunmer). Magisters being obsessed stalkers for an ex-slave is just nonsensical.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ra'Zahr

Telvanni famously do whatever they like.

xgoku1

It's particularly egregious that this is a Companion questline, which AFAIK has to be repeated per character if you want to maximum RP, as they give major Rapport gains.

It's not some random zone quest in some corner of the map you can avoid entirely.

xgoku1

Faulgor wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ra'Zahr

Ra'Zahr being naked isn't implied as an SA angle. Therana is extremely insane, and thinks clothes are cursed.

Faulgor

xgoku1 wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Ra'Zahr

Ra'Zahr being naked isn't implied as an SA angle. Therana is extremely insane, and thinks clothes are cursed.

It's a naked slave in her chambers. Who is pathologically submissive. 14 year old me knew what it was 20 years ago.

Therana is insane, but she doesn't think clothes in general are cursed (why would she wear any herself, then?), she suspects someone might have cursed the clothes you are giving to her because she's paranoid. And because that's a reasonable possibility in the TES universe.

xgoku1

Faulgor wrote: »

It's a naked slave in her chambers. Who is pathologically submissive. 14 year old me knew what it was 20 years ago.

That's your headcanon. Therana doesn't even know what planet she's on. Every single line of her dialogue is utter gibberish.

What I meant, is that there is a potential ingame explanation about why her slave isn't wearing clothes, that cursed clothes exist.

The offered clothes being potentially cursed is completely moot, as she attacks the wearer anyways. You know, because insane.

Why would Ra'Zahr accept to wear clothes if Therana has forbid him to? Why does Therana also attack him if you get him to wear it instead?

Faulgor wrote: »

Telvanni famously do whatever they like.

"Whatever they like" doesn't include being a sex predator. Sorry.

dosco

I'm glad i found this thread before starting the quest, thank you.
This needs a cw at the very least, no matter what kind of quest, but like xgoku1 says:

xgoku1 wrote: »

It's particularly egregious that this is a Companion questline, which AFAIK has to be repeated per character if you want to maximum RP, as they give major Rapport gains.

It's not some random zone quest in some corner of the map you can avoid entirely.

this makes it necessary to change it.

Unfortunate enough that people waited for an argonian companion for a while and then of course it was another slavery story - i'm not against that kind of content in general, but the contrast is quite big looking at eg Isobel's quest versus looking at this one, and they even could have made it dark while going with the shadowscale story, which players asked for apparently.

--
i have a question; i only played the first part of Sharp's story so far, do we have access to stuff that helps fast-leveling companions on pts?

(edited bc typo)

Ratzkifal

xgoku1 wrote: »

[...]

This isn't even lore appropriate for the Telvanni. Telvanni being pro-slavery is 'balanced' by them being famously disinterested in everything else, and being highly meritocratic (even for slaves, and non-Dunmer). Magisters being obsessed stalkers for an ex-slave is just nonsensical.

If the writers' room really thinks this is a story that needs to be told, IMO this would be better packaged as a Dres plotline.

I wouldn't say this is "Telvanni lore" at all. It's Sondivel lore if anything. That is something I wished they would have explored more. Reynila is a Telvanni who is anti-slavery, which is being glossed over way too much by the story in my opinion, which just shows that you really can't talk about House Telvanni as if they are all the same. Even the Reachmen and Dremora got an angle of "they are not all bad" but the Telvanni are denied such even though they are a bunch that couldn't be more different from person to person, unlike the Dremora.
Not to mention, Sondivel is so deranged that even pro-slavery Telvanni could want to see him dead. He doesn't care about the economics of his experiment (attunement requires a soul as a sacrifice), the magic is potentially dangerous enough in political intrigue that it could threaten the Telvanni individualism as a whole and not to mention he is a degenerate who loves an Argonian. That's plenty of reasons why another Telvanni would want to kill him. Not to mention that he keeps talking about his experiments as if it would mean the "end of slavery", which would definitely attract the attention of pro-slavery Telvanni who do not like the sound of that and wouldn't let him ramble on for long enough to explain what he actually means by that.

Ratzkifal

Synaryn wrote: »

I went through the quest again to that point and selected the first option and there wasn't any change in the quest (that dialogue with Sharp is an optional suggested step anyways). This is all he said. Tbh going through the quest again was a rather sickening and draining experience. and it just makes me sad this quest even exists.

Aww. That's unfortunate. I really thought that the poor writing of how Dimik-ei was kidnapped wouldn't happen there because you are meant to take the "forget option" and not go through the memory. But that just means that the moment during the final battle is even less impactful because you didn't give Sharp a reason to think that his memories are worth restoring in the first place.
Considering everything else up to that point in the quest was pretty good, it's sad to see ZOS fumble like that, especially in a quest with this much significance.

Ratzkifal

dosco wrote: »

I'm glad i found this thread before starting the quest, thank you.
This needs a cw at the very least, no matter what kind of quest, but like xgoku1 says:

xgoku1 wrote: »

It's particularly egregious that this is a Companion questline, which AFAIK has to be repeated per character if you want to maximum RP, as they give major Rapport gains.

It's not some random zone quest in some corner of the map you can avoid entirely.

this makes it necessary to change it.

Unfotunate enough that people waited for an argonian companion for a while and then of course it was another slavery story - i'm not against that kind of content in general, but the contrast is quite big looking at eg Isobel's quest versus looking at this one, and they even could have made it dark while going with the shadowscale story, which players asked for apparently.

--
i have a question; i only played the first part of Sharp's story so far, do we have access to stuff that helps fast-leveling companions on pts?

Yes, there is an item that can increase your rapport and one that can max all your companion's skill lines.

As for whether the story needs to be repeated, I think the only part that needs to be repeated is the harmless first quest where you just go into the public dungeon to save Reynila, which unlocks the companion. The creepy notes, the memory and talking to Sondivel comes in a later quest.
So while it's not great that this is a companion quest, it can be easily ignored I think.

Synaryn

xgoku1 wrote: »

The purple lipstick and signing the letter 'Sondy~' really seals the Buffalo Bill caricature.

This isn't even lore appropriate for the Telvanni. Telvanni being pro-slavery is 'balanced' by them being famously disinterested in everything else, and being highly meritocratic (even for slaves, and non-Dunmer). Magisters being obsessed stalkers for an ex-slave is just nonsensical.

Yeah, Mevei mentions early on that many magisters have favorite slaves, "but this was...different." Most Telvanni we've seen with slaves treat them as little more than tools to fulfill their goals. It's like they saw everyone asking for an Argonian companion and went the most extreme route they could. "Argonian slave sexually abused by his male Telvanni master" is the kind of thing I'd expect from an ERP character's hastily written backstory, not a ZOS storyline. Sondivel's villainly is explicitly motivated by his sexual obsession with Sharp. It's a trope with really harmful history.

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Aww. That's unfortunate. I really thought that the poor writing of how Dimik-ei was kidnapped wouldn't happen there because you are meant to take the "forget option" and not go through the memory. But that just means that the moment during the final battle is even less impactful because you didn't give Sharp a reason to think that his memories are worth restoring in the first place.
Considering everything else up to that point in the quest was pretty good, it's sad to see ZOS fumble like that, especially in a quest with this much significance.

Yeah, the memory sequence is the most egregious of the poor writing, the excuse for why we have to be the ones experiencing the memory feels flimsy at best. Then Sharp actually considering giving himself up to Sondivel to free Dimik-ei and the other slaves...in any other slavery story line, fine, but in an SA storyline, it was gross.

kaushad

xgoku1 wrote: »

"Whatever they like" doesn't include being a sex predator. Sorry.

That is headcanon. Telvanni philosophy is simple: "wisdom confers power, and power confers right". They're infamous for experimenting on slaves and captives against their will. Not every Telvanni is a monster with no regard with people's bodily and mental autonomy, but their "meritocratic" traditions enable those who are. When has SA not been feature of slavery? It would be worse for the developers to write Telvanni as some sort of good kind of slavers/social Darwinists, who only abuse in the interests "science" or "politics".

Tommy_The_Gun

Well, now that I think of it, I (and probably not only I) will have another reason to dislike Telvanni even more. So, every time there will be an endeavour that requires to kill NPCs with Blade of Woe, I know even more where to go.

Also, just a thought. I have not done this quest, but thankfully to this thread I know what I am signing up for. With that being said, if this quest is at least half as "emotional" and dark as people in this thread describe it - then Sharp-As-Night might become the companion with strongest & saddest backstory.

I mean even if some one dislikes Khajiits or Argonians I can not think that any one won't say (or at least think): Poor guy... I feel sorry for him and feel some kind of sympathy & empathy.

Also, even if some one is Telvanni fan lore-wise, I also can not see anyone not wanting to kill this quest's villain.

Soarora

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Well, now that I think of it, I (and probably not only I) will have another reason to dislike Telvanni even more. So, every time there will be an endeavour that requires to kill NPCs with Blade of Woe, I know even more where to go.

Also, just a thought. I have not done this quest, but thankfully to this thread I know what I am signing up for. With that being said, if this quest is at least half as "emotional" and dark as people in this thread describe it - then Sharp-As-Night might become the companion with strongest & saddest backstory.

I mean even if some one dislikes Khajiits or Argonians I can not think that any one won't say (or at least think): Poor guy... I feel sorry for him and feel some kind of sympathy & empathy.

Also, even if some one is Telvanni fan lore-wise, I also can not see anyone not wanting to kill this quest's villain.

Anyone can be an abuser. I’d avoid hating Telvanni as a whole because one mer is an abuser. It does not translate well. (Ex. Someone is abused by a woman therefore I dislike women… that’s sexism.)

kaushad

Soarora wrote: »

Anyone can be an abuser. I’d avoid hating Telvanni as a whole because one mer is an abuser. It does not translate well. (Ex. Someone is abused by a woman therefore I dislike women… that’s sexism.)

Other people are usually constrained by laws that prohibit certain types of abuse. House Telvanni is an institution that uses hierarchies of social climbers to prevent anybody from enforcing laws like that. So a lot of Telvanni are complicit in the abuse of power committed by their worst. A better analogy would be a state or possibly a large business.

Soarora

kaushad wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Anyone can be an abuser. I’d avoid hating Telvanni as a whole because one mer is an abuser. It does not translate well. (Ex. Someone is abused by a woman therefore I dislike women… that’s sexism.)

Other people are usually constrained by laws that prohibit certain types of abuse. House Telvanni is an institution that uses hierarchies of social climbers to prevent anybody from enforcing laws like that. So a lot of Telvanni are complicit in the abuse of power committed by their worst. A better analogy would be a state or possibly a large business.

Ah, I see. Thank you.

FayJolyn

I just posted a huge ass long post with feedback about Sharp's story in the official feedback thread for companions here. It's long and maybe rambly but I hope at least one dev sees it and finds it useful.

In summary I thought the subject matter of Sharp's journey could have been better and made the suggestions to have more breathing room with Sharp alone to talk about his feelings and ease him into trusting the player character more. While I don't denounce the writers writing a story about the darker themes of his story I agree that Sharp got the short end of the stick within his own story. I suggested a more character focus to show his trauma instead of us reading about in letters it or have a side character bluntly telling us about his past. for example: I really wanted to have a sit down moment with Sharp and tackle his feelings - ease him into trusting us. etc Also instead of being told he doesn't like to be touched I would have liked to have seen it. Maybe have the player make an innocent move and he lashes out or something to show the contrast of his normally so stoic self. I really wanted to hug him at points in the story but knowing he doesn't like to be touched creates tension that would have made for a wonderful character moment. Poor bud. I really liked him overall I just wish I had more moments with him. But I feel he got really sidelined in his own story. You can tackle super dark story themes and have it be emotional without it feeling too icky. This game is after all rated M. Idk it felt weird that we have the dark elf lady explain us his past and he just stands there. (could also be bugged I had Sharp bug out before at the camp site in one of the earlier quests) I really am curious how the writing process went for his story. It almost felt it was rewritten too many times and as a result the main character gets sidelined. Shame. I really like him.

Tommy_The_Gun

Soarora wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Well, now that I think of it, I (and probably not only I) will have another reason to dislike Telvanni even more. So, every time there will be an endeavour that requires to kill NPCs with Blade of Woe, I know even more where to go.

Also, just a thought. I have not done this quest, but thankfully to this thread I know what I am signing up for. With that being said, if this quest is at least half as "emotional" and dark as people in this thread describe it - then Sharp-As-Night might become the companion with strongest & saddest backstory.

I mean even if some one dislikes Khajiits or Argonians I can not think that any one won't say (or at least think): Poor guy... I feel sorry for him and feel some kind of sympathy & empathy.

Also, even if some one is Telvanni fan lore-wise, I also can not see anyone not wanting to kill this quest's villain.

Anyone can be an abuser. I’d avoid hating Telvanni as a whole because one mer is an abuser. It does not translate well. (Ex. Someone is abused by a woman therefore I dislike women… that’s sexism.)

Well, I agree with you that disliking entire group of people because of one individual is a bad thing. Sure. There are always "Black Sheeps".

But, that is not necessary the case when it comes to Telvani. They are based on hierarchy. So one who is higher is more important than the other etc. But the thing is that Telvani have countless of examples in which some one in the position of power, abuses that power left & right without any serious repercussions. It is not just one or two "Black Sheeps". So this villain actually kinda "confirms" the "average Telvani" Stereotype. Some one even posted here in this thread that even in TES III Morrwind (which action takes place much, much later in the timeline) stuff like this happens and is actually, comonly & socially accepted. Yikes !

Telvani have power, but what matters is how they use that power. Slavery is bad. But Telvani put that statement to a shame. They go over the top to the point in which slaves are not just slaves but test subjects.

When I try to think about some one from House Telvani who is at least half decent the only one that comes to mind is Divayth Fyr - but even he has done some horrible stuff.

If it was not Elder Scrolls, but for example D&D - Telvani would be Neutral Evil or Lawful Evil.

ArchangelIsraphel

I honestly want to know who the heck thought it was okay to put the player in the position of reliving the memories of an SA victim without decent prior warning and understanding of what is occuring. It is borderline violating the concent of the player themselves.

I'm glad I saw this thread before continuing with this quest line any further. I like Sharp. I feel terrible that this, of all things, ended up being his story. Poor, poor sharp. He may just be a character, but the subject matter was handled terribly in so many ways I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around how the devs could ever think this was a good idea. Who in their right mind approved this?

It's wrong. On so many levels, from so many perspectives and angles, I'm just...

Sickened. I'm so bloody angry.

You can deal with this subject matter and tell stories like this without being so clumsy and insensitive about it. SA victims are not your shock value puppets.

Not to mention that I'd really like to see a POSITIVE, HEALTHY DEPICTION of male homosexuality in the spotlight before they threw this kind of thing in our faces.

Poor Sharp. They could have told this story and done him much more justice.

ArchangelIsraphel

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Yep. If they went THIS Dark, then it for sure needs to have a content warring. Some people (even if they are adults) may react differently to what they are about to experience, because of different stuff they experienced in RL.

For example - The old horror game (Amnesia) had this mechanics in which the more sanity you lose - then at some points you can see bugs running over your PC screen. Why they went for bugs and not Spiders ? Because during their internal testing they discovered that people with Arachnofobia could literality hurt themselves / break something when jumping away from the screen.

(Sorry for the double post, but I felt this was important) but agreed. This needs a content warning, AND an option to completely avoid any interaction at all with the content, clearly outlined options in the dialouge which avoid memories and explicit details while still allowing the player to get the gist of the story and aquire the companion.

Devs NEED to understand that this type of content cannot be presented suddenly, or in a way where the player is not prepared beforehand. There needs to be a pop up that explicitly states that there will be SA themes, which allows the player to know, not be hinted at vaugly, what they are getting into, and consent to playing through it.

Mental health and SA is a serious thing that cannot be taken lightly. I am certain there are members of the player base who use the game to escape the memory of such painful experiences. Such a questline could cause relapse into depression, PTSD attacks, panic attacks, and more.

It isn't to be taken lightly. The devs need to realize what they are treading into.

To those who may think others shouldn't be "so sensitive"- it is not for you to decide how sensitive anyone should be to any given thing, nor is it for you to decide when or where anyone faces past trauma. The way this questline has been presented is wrong, and those who have no desire to interact with such content should be warned in advance, even in an adult game.

xgoku1

kaushad wrote: »

That is headcanon.

AFAIK no prior lore exists to infer that Telvanni magisters are sex predators.

My original point was that we already have a faction (Dres) that exists to show the worst of slavery, and this story would have been more appropriate for them. If at all.

At the very least, you could show a more realistic depiction of mental abuse without the ridiculous McGuffin of Dubious Consent.

It's not beyond the realm of possibility that slavery leads to SA, I agree. I also understand that there are no "hard rules" for Telvanni as they can do what they want, theoretically.

To me, this is like if ZOS adds a new uber-powerful Telvanni magister who is suddenly very interested in all things Three Banners War, and decides to actively take part in making the Ebonheart Pact win.

This very discussion is a good reason why it shouldn't have been written like this. What should be a sensitive story about SA and Sharp-As-Night, is more about the abuser and how the Telvanni can do what they want.

Synaryn

FayJolyn wrote: »

I just posted a huge ass long post with feedback about Sharp's story in the official feedback thread for companions here. It's long and maybe rambly but I hope at least one dev sees it and finds it useful.

In summary I thought the subject matter of Sharp's journey could have been better and made the suggestions to have more breathing room with Sharp alone to talk about his feelings and ease him into trusting the player character more. While I don't denounce the writers writing a story about the darker themes of his story I agree that Sharp got the short end of the stick within his own story. I suggested a more character focus to show his trauma instead of us reading about in letters it or have a side character bluntly telling us about his past. for example: I really wanted to have a sit down moment with Sharp and tackle his feelings - ease him into trusting us. etc Also instead of being told he doesn't like to be touched I would have liked to have seen it. Maybe have the player make an innocent move and he lashes out or something to show the contrast of his normally so stoic self. I really wanted to hug him at points in the story but knowing he doesn't like to be touched creates tension that would have made for a wonderful character moment. Poor bud. I really liked him overall I just wish I had more moments with him. But I feel he got really sidelined in his own story. You can tackle super dark story themes and have it be emotional without it feeling too icky. This game is after all rated M. Idk it felt weird that we have the dark elf lady explain us his past and he just stands there. (could also be bugged I had Sharp bug out before at the camp site in one of the earlier quests) I really am curious how the writing process went for his story. It almost felt it was rewritten too many times and as a result the main character gets sidelined. Shame. I really like him.

Thank you very much for the thorough feedback, I really hope ZOS takes note of all this. For future dark storylines if nothing else. There's definitely a few fumbles that come off as the quest being rewritten many times, making it lose some cohesion. Bad writing sticks out much more if it's as serious as an SA storyline than if it's some zone quest to kill 10 bears.

VaranisArano

xgoku1 wrote: »

kaushad wrote: »

That is headcanon.

AFAIK no prior lore exists to infer that Telvanni magisters are sex predators.

I'm going to tread lightly here because the mods tend not to appreciate when someone with a degree in teaching history talks about details of slavery, so I'll just say that you don't get large scale plantation/house slavery like we see in Morrowind without SA. Out of respect for forum guidelines, I'll leave the real world connections there.

However, we do actually see evidence of this in ESO, so I'll talk about that instead.

ESO's Vvardenfell zone has a quest in Sadrith Mora where you met a Dunmer Nobleman in House Telvanni who's in love with his mother's Altmer slave. She doesn't want to marry him and wants to be free. It's pretty squicky even though the slave gets a happy ending. He's not a Magister, but he is a noble of the House. So given that the sexual implications of slavery has now featured in a quest in both Telvanni areas in ESO, I think its safe to say that ZOS' writing team is not shying away from the implications.
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Bound_by_Love

Along the same themes, though less explicitly abusive, in Sadrith Mora's major quest involving Sun-in-Shadow, she's internalized enough of the attitudes of House Telvanni that in one optional ending, she enslaves Eoki against his explicit desire to escape because she loves him. She's a much more sympathic character, but viewing her actions objectively is pretty damning.

ESO has definitely explored these themes of consent, slavery, and SA in Telvanni lands with Telvanni characters before this.


It's also woth noting that TES III has a lot of implied squickiness and disrespect for consent going on with the Telvanni Magisters.

• Divayth Fyr created his own consorts from clones of himself
  Beyte Fyr's dialogue: "Yes. Well. Not 'wife' in the 'married' sense. But... you know. 'Paramour.' 'Consort.' Something like that. It's a bit awkward, really. Because... well... he made us, too, so, though we aren't really his daughters or anything, it's LIKE we were his daughters. Because he made us. You see?"
• Divayth Fyr and Neloth have both kidnapped a Redoran nobleman's daughter and are using her to blackmail him
• Therana's aforementioned naked Kahjiit slave

Most notably, TES III' Main Quest actually forces the Player to create a situation with dubious consent. In order to become the Zainab Hortator, the Player must buy the slave girl Falura Llervu from a Telvanni slave dealer and disguise her as a highborn Telvanni daughter to marry the Ashkhan.

Glass half full, she and he seem like they'll be happy together and she's likely in a better situation than before.

Glass half empty, the Player bought a slave, did not free her, ordered her to lie to her new husband, married her off with dubious consent, and then walked away knowing that her new husband knows she lied. Oof.


So it's not like ZOS' writing team came up with this story out of nowhere. This Companion tale just makes extra explicit what was already strongly implied by Telvanni culture in earlier quests and games. While House Dres is undeniably problematic, I don't think its fair or even supported by the lore to try to make them the sole representatives of slavery's pervasive corruption of consent and healthy relationships.

Varana

To be honest, though, even while this quest should probably have been handled with more empathy and care, I very much would not like them to shy away from difficult or darker content. As a world, ESO-Tamriel is very, very fluffy and sugarcoated - esp. considering its rating. Not everything needs to be grimdark (I very much don't like grimdark), but glimpses of heavier stuff keep the world grounded and more believable.

So I don't agree with the sentiment that a quest like this shouldn't have made it into the game. Does it need to put you in the role of the one experiencing the assault? No. Should quests dealing with a topic like this be in the game? Yes.
I'd hate if the lesson they learn from this quest would be to simply not do stories like this anymore.

It's almost certainly too late for substantial changes. (The curse of having everything voice-acted.) But it'd be great if they would see the criticism and do better next time, tackling similar subjects with the diligence they deserve.

Synaryn

Varana wrote: »

To be honest, though, even while this quest should probably have been handled with more empathy and care, I very much would not like them to shy away from difficult or darker content. As a world, ESO-Tamriel is very, very fluffy and sugarcoated - esp. considering its rating. Not everything needs to be grimdark (I very much don't like grimdark), but glimpses of heavier stuff keep the world grounded and more believable.

So I don't agree with the sentiment that a quest like this shouldn't have made it into the game. Does it need to put you in the role of the one experiencing the assault? No. Should quests dealing with a topic like this be in the game? Yes.
I'd hate if the lesson they learn from this quest would be to simply not do stories like this anymore.

It's almost certainly too late for substantial changes. (The curse of having everything voice-acted.) But it'd be great if they would see the criticism and do better next time, tackling similar subjects with the diligence they deserve.

Yes, I'd love to see darker content if it's done well, I fully agree. Games are a great way to explore that darker content, a lot of horror games do it well and it's part of what makes them popular. I don't think this quest really even bothered to explore its SA theme, though. We barely hear from Sharp on it or see his healing. The SA is simply thrown in our face over and over again, in a sort of "look at how awful this is" manner.

VaranisArano

Varana wrote: »

To be honest, though, even while this quest should probably have been handled with more empathy and care, I very much would not like them to shy away from difficult or darker content. As a world, ESO-Tamriel is very, very fluffy and sugarcoated - esp. considering its rating. Not everything needs to be grimdark (I very much don't like grimdark), but glimpses of heavier stuff keep the world grounded and more believable.

So I don't agree with the sentiment that a quest like this shouldn't have made it into the game. Does it need to put you in the role of the one experiencing the assault? No. Should quests dealing with a topic like this be in the game? Yes.
I'd hate if the lesson they learn from this quest would be to simply not do stories like this anymore.

It's almost certainly too late for substantial changes. (The curse of having everything voice-acted.) But it'd be great if they would see the criticism and do better next time, tackling similar subjects with the diligence they deserve.

Yeah, I'm not sure that I think their execution of the quest was great.

But likewise, I actually really appreciate that ZOS has made the connection between slavery, lack of consent, and SA explicitly in ESO.

I brought up the quest Bound by Love which also tackles this material. Sharp's questline adds to the lore by showing that this is a pervasive problem with House Telvanni (and likely Dunmer culture in general, not just House Dres) that slaves are not just abused as "farm tools" like the fandom jokes might make seem. In a culture like Morrowind's with widespread plantation slavery and house slaves, I would expect that situations like Sharp's and Tirwin's are not uncommon. Its surprisingly refreshing to see that shown explicitly in the lore and not just as Argonian Maid jokes.